SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

[Taylorman]

The All Blacks name their team to play England at 3:30pm (NZ time).
* Other team announcements today: South Africa 7pm, England 7:30pm, (Wales 4:30pm on Friday).

so just add 12 hours or so I guess?

Possibility that Cane is dropped for Barrett...not sure of that but it certainly supports Hansens all out attack gameplan, he just wants to end things as soon as the match starts!

Canes real strength is his aggressive tackling.

[Taylorman]

Tuilagi...good man;

"Finally, the haka question is raised. He seems to revel in watching it be performed, greeting it with a smile and reflects on his former life in Samoa when explaining his actions.

"It was an honour and stand there in front of the haka and accept the challenge. For me … growing up, watching it on TV.

"To finally stand in front of it, it was amazing."

[Rugby Fan]

Telegraph thinks Ford and Kruis will start.

George Ford is to make a dramatic return to the England starting XV, with Eddie Jones poised to reunite him with Owen Farrell in the backline to face New Zealand in the World Cup semi-final on Saturday.

Ford had been dropped for England’s quarter-final victory over Australia but it is understood the Leicester fly-half is to be reinstated for the biggest game of Jones’ four-year tenure, with Farrell switching to inside centre and Manu Tuilagi starting at 13.

It is understood that Jones will also recall George Kruis in the second row as England bid to counter the All Blacks’ potent defensive line-out with the Saracens forward, renown for his calling expertise, replacing Courtney Lawes.

Jonny May, who missed the start of England’s training session near their Disneyland resort in Tokyo Bay, is also expected to be named in the starting XV with Jones set to give him every opportunity to prove his fitness after picking up a hamstring injury after scoring two tries on his 50th cap against the Wallabies.

If May doesn't get back to fitness, it sounds like Cokanasiga will be in line for a call-up, as there are doubts about whether Nowell can start a game.

[Taylorman]

Yep, think so to. Doesn’t make sense not to.

[Taylorman]

ABs named


1. Joe Moody (44)
2. Codie Taylor (49)
3. Nepo Laulala (24)
4. Brodie Retallick (79)
5. Samuel Whitelock (116)
6. Scott Barrett (34)
7. Ardie Savea (43)
8. Kieran Read - captain (125)
9. Aaron Smith (90)
10. Richie Mo’unga (15)
11. George Bridge (8)
12. Anton Lienert-Brown (41)
13. Jack Goodhue (12)
14. Sevu Reece (6)
15. Beauden Barrett (81)


16. Dane Coles (67)
17. Ofa Tuungafasi (34)
18. Angus Ta'avao (12)
19. Patrick Tuipulotu (28)
20. Sam Cane (66)
21. T J Perenara (63)
22. Sonny Bill Williams (56)
23. Jordie Barrett (15)

Barrett continues to be the big mover. Again Hansen going all out attack there, Barrett the better ball carrier. Also strengthens the lineout.

The number of quality players left out of the starting xv and 23 is the highest I’ve seen for a while.

[kingelderfield]

I'm happy with either the inform and genuinely fit May or the alternative offering of Cokanasiga.
Daly has to deliver at some point; penetrating returns from deep, braking their defence and feeding our spontaneous attack, great raking kicks finding either space or deep touch, joining the line in a attractive back division, delivering 50 metre plus penalty goals, or even imagine actual old fashion full back functions such as catching high balls and being appropriately postioned to enact last line effective tackles. Makes you feel proud to think of all things he might do.....
Back 3;
May, Cokanasiga, Watson

[kingelderfield]

If we're;
Ford May(Cokanasiga) Farrell Tuilagi Watson Daly,
Do we then have Slade or Joseph on the bench?
And the same question if we're; May Cokanasiga Watson?
I'd want Joseph everytime.

[Taylorman]

Barrett will be a sign Hansen wants to have a go at the English lineout with now four specialists with Read and Barrett. Cane to come on later to keep the breakdown Ticking over.

[kingelderfield]

Heavy NZ pack, time to check the weather......lots of rain previous day.....good drainage no problem.... they're trying to out muscle us?
More like theyll be kicking more for position and wishing to challenge the LO?
Very interesting strategic selection.

[LondonTiger]

Barrett will be a sign Hansen wants to have a go at the English lineout with now four specialists with Read and Barrett. Cane to come on later to keep the breakdown Ticking over.

When you only have 3 lifters, what do you gain by having 4 jumpers?

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Barrett will be a sign Hansen wants to have a go at the English lineout with now four specialists with Read and Barrett. Cane to come on later to keep the breakdown Ticking over.

When you only have 3 lifters, what do you gain by having 4 jumpers?

Warmth?

[BigTrevsbigmac]

England are now lower odds to beat NZ than
Wales to beat SA

[LondonTiger]

England are now lower odds to beat NZ than
Wales to beat SA

Lower odds as in closer to evens?

[LondonTiger]

Ps, pretty sure ko is 9:00 BST (not GMT).

[kingelderfield]

Is it too late to drop Daly?
Watson's injury negated the opportunity of an earlier try out comparison and though Wtson showed good form against Oz, that was from his preferred position of wing.
I wish we could confidently say its just a case of Daly needing to man up, however the truth is he has sadly never really looked comfortable and mores the case has often appeared positionally lost.
Undoubtedly NZ are going to pepper Daly and if this proves a successful tactic, it will need to be countered by us by either positional or personnel change.

[sensisball]

As a Scotsman I think the strength in depth that Jones has developed in the backline is impressive. However Daly's work as the last defender and under a high ball remain the main significant weaknesses. I suspect the ABs will be doing their best to stress Daly in these aspects of play.

[robbo277]

LT

"When you only have 3 lifters, what do you gain by having 4 jumpers?"

If it is a 6 man defensive lineout you can park a prop on the 5 and on the 15 and cover the ground with a jumper every 2m and play zonally. Whoever's zone it is in can then jump and it reduces the movement you have to make and theoretically leads to a better contest.

[LondonTiger]

LT

"When you only have 3 lifters, what do you gain by having 4 jumpers?"

If it is a 6 man defensive lineout you can park a prop on the 5 and on the 15 and cover the ground with a jumper every 2m and play zonally. Whoever's zone it is in can then jump and it reduces the movement you have to make and theoretically leads to a better contest.

Yeah, though that does mean you are both reacting and have just the one lifter. Hansen has made his call, and it does seem to be to attack the lineout at the expense of the breakdown and defence. Are we expecting NZ, a side who usually kick as much as England, to be targeting touch more and make it a slower, less dynamic game?

[robbo277]

I'm not unhappy with Barrett over Cane tbh. I'm not a huge Cane fan but it's not like Barrett is exactly Jerome Kaino or anything. I think NZ lose out round the park for potentially marginal gains at the lineout.

[LondonTiger]

I'm not unhappy with Barrett over Cane tbh. I'm not a huge Cane fan but it's not like Barrett is exactly Jerome Kaino or anything. I think NZ lose out round the park for potentially marginal gains at the lineout.

Agreed. Would be good if Youngs can remember the days he used to run and can isolate Barrett in similar fashion to deToit a few years ago.

[Taylorman]

I think it’s more Barrett’s mobility that makes the difference. Barrett gets around the field a lot, not overly physical but being a Barrett sure is quick and has excellent ball skills, handling.

The AB lineout of Sam, Brodie and Read is as good as any as it is so I think the lineout advantage is just a bonus, a variation.

Hansen is trying to squeeze as much youth, speed and skill in as possible.

He’s now put Crotty, Reiko, Ben Smith, Cane- all uninjured and 3 in good form, either out or to the bench, all way more experienced than their replacements Reece, Bridge, Goodhue, and now Barrett-62 tests between them and half of those are Barrett as sub vs 260 odd for the 4 older guys.

A World Cup semi is Barretts first start at 6!

That’s definitely pushing the boat out from even Hansen. He wants as high octane a match as is physically possible IMO.

Never mind the nerves, never mind the lack of experience, just get out there and play, and play it fast, and accurate. He’s backing them that much.

[Soul Requiem]

Delighted to see Barrett instead of Cane, it might strengthen the line out but I can't help but think this is a major advantage for Curry and Underhill in the loose.

[LondonTiger]

Why would you select a lock in the back row for mobility?

[MightyQuin]

Wow. Unless we put Jonny May at flanker, it’s in the bag.

[Taylorman]

Why would you select a lock in the back row for mobility?

Because he’s also a back rower, a very quick one. Think he’s been underestimated. He’s been one of the best players at this tournament, certainly one of our best. That’s why Hansen can’t ignore it.

Gotta think outside the box LT. Rugby’s not a square pegs in square holes game anymore.

For kiwis, this is one hell of an exciting selection, especially after getting the thumbs up vs Ireland.

[Old Man]

Why would you select a lock in the back row for mobility?

Because he’s also a back rower, a very quick one. Think he’s been underestimated. He’s been one of the best players at this tournament, certainly one of our best. That’s why Hansen can’t ignore it.

Gotta think outside the box LT. Rugby’s not a square pegs in square holes game anymore.

For kiwis, this is one hell of an exciting selection, especially after getting the thumbs up vs Ireland.

Pieter Steph du Toit was a lock his whole career, until Rassie moved him to back row.

[Taylorman]

Vs Ireland, came on at half time...

Scott Barrett: Replaced Cane at halftime to take up a spot on the side of the scrum and immediately found the rhythm of the game. Genuine option to start at No 6 against England if Cane isn't right. Dominant in the air.

7.5

[maestegmafia]

Might see Eddie select Courtney Laws at six now to counter the selection of Barrett by the ABs

[Scottrf]

Courts keeps his place, only change the midfield.

[Soul Requiem]

Lawes instead of Kruis is a big call against the ABs, his extra mobility round the park must have been the clincher.

Ford coming in for Slade as expected and Wilson coming on to the bench in place of Ludlam seems sensible he had a good last November.

[Rugby Fan]

Wilson's inclusion good to see. Wonder whether it's because he is finally fit enough, or if he's preferred over Ludlam for tactical reasons.

[maestegmafia]

England: Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

[MightyQuin]

Pretty much as I predicted only Lawes instead of Kruis and Joseph on the bench for Nowell. Decent side, will it be enough?

[Afro]

Suggests they aren't as worried about the NZ lineout as the media and pundits, and are more focused on their own game than what the All Blacks will bring

[Afro]

Which I agree tbh. I'll sit and watch it, and if we lose, its expected. We have got to the semi and lost to the best team in the world. No pressure.

If the All Blacks lose, then it will be a failure for them because of the standards they have set

[Scottrf]

Lawes instead of Kruis is a big call against the ABs, his extra mobility round the park must have been the clincher.

Also more likely to pressure their playmakers, better in maul defence, and has the lineout USP of being able to get over people.

I think Kruis being a better lineout technician than Lawes is overstated. We do lose out on the scrum but NZ only really use that to reset.

[Scottrf]

Which I agree tbh. I'll sit and watch it, and if we lose, its expected. We have got to the semi and lost to the best team in the world. No pressure.

If the All Blacks lose, then it will be a failure for them because of the standards they have set

It's a failure for either team. The judgement of Jones' tenure rests on this game.

[MightyQuin]

Owens doesn’t ref the scrum anyway

[Gooseberry]

Might see Eddie select Courtney Laws at six now to counter the selection of Barrett by the ABs

Might see NZ select a tin of custard to counter Daly at 15 



Does seem very much like NZ are uncharacteristically worried about England. First off they practised a penalty kick off, now they are selecting players out of position to counter Englands strength. Fundamentally though it wont alter the way they treat their own possession but it does seem they are keen to disrupt Englands game, which is pretty sensible.  
I dont think England can really afford or would want to get pulled into making late changes to their lineup to counter a counter, or that it would be that effective. England need those super mobile flankers making huge numbers of tackles and smart decisions on when to contest the ball, Lawes can do a decent job at that but not on the level Curry and Underhill did against Aus. 

Media weight does seem to be backing the Ford recall, based on what was seen in training. Fair enough, I wasnt expecting that but again maybe this shows Eddies concern about New Zealand and NZ wont gift points from a defence pressing them in their own 22 in the way Aus did and will be more ruthless in putting points on England when they are in the right half of the pitch than Aus were. The pros and cons of each have been discussed to death, it was always going to be margin call either way. Last weekend Jones came out looking like a genius, Ill reserve judgement on this decision till after the game. 

If May is out thats a huge blow for England. Although they have two quality options who can come in on the wing May has been the stand out finisher for some time now and is right at the top of his game. Cokasinga offers something different but just doenst have the all round skills. 

Despite the earlier joke I really feel the anti Daly bandwagon is way out of control and completely exaggerating his issues. Theres zero suggestion from within England that hes going to be replaced, and thinking Watson can just jump in seamlessly  is naive. Leaving brown out was one of those decisions that could always come back to haunt Jones, but the same voices scapegoating Daly are the ones were baying for his blood two years ago. Jones has backed Daly since giving him his first start, and has consistently picked him as starting 15 for over a year. Its not like the ford farrell situation where theres been constant flip flopping, Jones has always backed Daly. Now it may transpire that hes backing a the wrong dead horse, but it would be a heck of a thing to pick Watson there now...almost as ridiculous as picking a lock to start flanker for the first time 

[maestegmafia]

The two teams are out

Guess the only real surprise tactical call is picking Scott Barrett at blindside by the Kiwis. I guess Lawes is a counter to that? A 4 a 5.5 two 7.5s and an 8 in the back three vs a 4 and 5 a 5.5 a 678 and the worlds best 8?

My how rugby has changed I still remember a fifteen Stone Tighthead Prop being considered a giant and second rows being six foot two.

Horses for courses when you have such large and talent filled squads at your disposal.

There is very little between these teams, both very different in character but also some similarities in countering each other.

Ford and Farrell vs Mo'unga and Barrett as the dictators of play.

Kiwis go for a fast 12-14 vs England’s fast 13-15.

This is going to be a very interesting match tactically. Two teams trying to advance the games preconceptions and evolve.

Can’t wait...!

[Afro]

Which I agree tbh. I'll sit and watch it, and if we lose, its expected. We have got to the semi and lost to the best team in the world. No pressure.

If the All Blacks lose, then it will be a failure for them because of the standards they have set

It's a failure for either team. The judgement of Jones' tenure rests on this game.

I known what you are saying. England are aiming to win the whole competition, so not doing that is a failure in that sense. But losing to the best team in the world in the semi final is less of a failure for England, as you have to hold your hand up when there are better teams.

NZ don't have this. There is no one better so not winning the WC is more of a failure

[Gooseberry]

Which I agree tbh. I'll sit and watch it, and if we lose, its expected. We have got to the semi and lost to the best team in the world. No pressure.

If the All Blacks lose, then it will be a failure for them because of the standards they have set

It's a failure for either team. The judgement of Jones' tenure rests on this game.

Id disagree there. Whilst Englands goal is clearly to win the world cup theres not an expectation that they will. Putting up a solid game and pushing the best team in the world would still see them go home with credit after cantering through the group stages and demolishing a good side in the quarters. I cant remember a world cup where England have looked this strong and comfortable in their games, dont forget they lost the quarter in 2003 to wales on moral points.  

To judge Jones a a failure if England lose this game to a dodgy no call on a forward pass would be a bit rum. Sure if they win he will be seen as a genius, knighted and everyone will expect him to pick Daly at 15 for the Lions but hes not going to be seen as a failure if he doesn't. Its the best world cup team England have had since 2003 for sure. 

For New Zealand though the bar is higher. They are expected to win the thing, its pretty normalised now. But even then would Hansens career be define by that? The guys been with New Zealand for the last two world cup wins and endless championship victories. Sure a below par cycle will take some gloss off his legendary status but hes already enshrined as one of the great if not the greatest coach in rugby history.

[lostinwales]

I would not read too much into the midfield switches between Australia and NZ. The Australia game played out in near identical fashion to most of the games we have had against them over the last 4 years and Eddie obviously felt Slade/Farrell was a better counter than Ford/Farrell

[SecretFly]

England believe themselves better, Afro.  That's the whole point of this meet up.  Jones has been waiting for this moment for a long time.  To finally prove he has a better side and to rise to Number 1.

As has been said.  The side that loses will consider it failure.  The nature of the loss will determine extent of gloom.

[Afro]

Which side has the greater expectation that they will win?

[Scottrf]

Which I agree tbh. I'll sit and watch it, and if we lose, its expected. We have got to the semi and lost to the best team in the world. No pressure.

If the All Blacks lose, then it will be a failure for them because of the standards they have set

It's a failure for either team. The judgement of Jones' tenure rests on this game.

Id disagree there. Whilst Englands goal is clearly to win the world cup theres not an expectation that they will. Putting up a solid game and pushing the best team in the world would still see them go home with credit after cantering through the group stages and demolishing a good side in the quarters. I cant remember a world cup where England have looked this strong and comfortable in their games, dont forget they lost the quarter in 2003 to wales on moral points.  

To judge Jones a a failure if England lose this game to a dodgy no call on a forward pass would be a bit rum. Sure if they win he will be seen as a genius, knighted and everyone will expect him to pick Daly at 15 for the Lions but hes not going to be seen as a failure if he doesn't. Its the best world cup team England have had since 2003 for sure. 

For New Zealand though the bar is higher. They are expected to win the thing, its pretty normalised now. But even then would Hansens career be define by that? The guys been with New Zealand for the last two world cup wins and endless championship victories. Sure a below par cycle will take some gloss off his legendary status but hes already enshrined as one of the great if not the greatest coach in rugby history.

I'm not saying he will be seen as a failure but he wont be seen as a great. Turned us around after RWC 2015 but that isn't a top tier achievement. This is the game he's been planning for since he became coach. And he has the pool of players to do it, I don't see why we should accept second best.

Hansen has done it twice in a row, he isn't defined by this game.

[Scottrf]

Which side has the greater expectation that they will win?

New Zealand of course.

[Soul Requiem]

Jones will be hoping to unleash Tuilagi at 100% for this game, does feel like he's been held back a bit during the six nations and the build up particularly playing at 12.

I've seen England lose numerous games during world cups but this is the first time I've been genuinely nervous before a game, I fully expected us to beat Wales and Australia in 2015 and France in 2011.

[Afro]

No one is saying accept second best. No one is saying don't aim to win. No one is saying don't be gutted if you don't

This is talking about pressure. Where is the expectation - surely there is more expectation on NZ to win both this game and the WC, than there is on England?

[Afro]

Which side has the greater expectation that they will win?

New Zealand of course.

So what I'm saying is, NZ not winning is a greater failure than England. If England play well, but lose because NZ are just better, then they will have lived up to the expectation on them

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