SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

[Rugby Fan]

I knew they'd played alongside each other a lot but this is a little surprising:

https://twitter.com/SimonGleave/status/1187280113336897537

George Ford back at 10 for England.

Ford & Farrell at 10-12 for the 29th time.

Only 4 pairs have played together more at 10-12 in the pro era:
Dan Carter/Ma'a Nonu (NZL, 45)
Ronan O'Gara/Gordon D'Arcy (IRE, 37)
Dan Biggar/Jamie Roberts (WAL, 34)
Khmaladze/Sharikadze (GEO, 30)

[Taylorman]

Before:
Eddie O'Sullivan:

"I'm really happy about Barrett being at 15 because I don't think he's going to get his hands on the ball as much.

" It's practically impossible to bring him into the game as much as Richie Mo'unga will be.

After:
"Beauden Barrett carried on 21 occasions, more than any other All Black in the history of the Rugby World Cup," Barnes wrote for The Times."

Good one Eddie !

This is an example of the sort of disconnect I mean in terms of knowing how the AB's work.
Barrett was put at FB to allow that he and Mo'unga could adopt a multiple playmakers role.

That means exactly one thing, that they would make plays.
Yet the structured, limited thinking of whats possible in this game never allowed poor old Eddie to open his mind to the possibilities.

'Oh, he's at fullback, cant get the ball from there much'...aaaah...

[kingelderfield]

The weather.....hot and wet....
Slippery.
Long studds needed and lots of tacky hands.
Lots of turnovers.

[Taylorman]

Oh great.

[kingelderfield]

My fear for this england side has often been that the real 'brains' behind them is McCall and EJ is just adjusting his shadow.
McCall surely has to be directly involved in future.
Remember EJ is really a 2nd fiddle; Macqueen & White were the drivers to his previous success.

[Taylorman]

Hmmm...

[Rugby Fan]

The weather.....hot and wet....  
Slippery.
Long studds needed and lots of tacky hands.
Lots of turnovers.

Not necessarily hot. Game starts at 5:00pm, which is sunset here. Hot was mid-30 degree temperatures of the pool stages. Highest temperature tomorrow is expected to be 25 degrees around mid-day, so we'll be 21 degrees or so at kick-off. That's a more comfortiable temperature, and not as humid as before.

The main question will be over how much the pitch can drain in 24 hours. The same pitch played well for the Japan-Scotland match after the typhoon but it was a baking hot day from the early morning. We'll have less heat to help, however, there'll be less moisture. Might turn out OK. We'll see if this rain stops when expected.

[Guest]

Just read that stuff.co.nz article. Is it a parody website or taken seriously in NZ?

Mark Reason wrote that and he’s English. Most kiwis do not take him seriously.

[Cyril]

I know about Reason. He’s an idiot. The website though, does it have serious articles or just stuff like the link? Anytime somebody has posted something from there it’s tabloid ‘comedy’.

[No 7&1/2]

Always a bit of comedy reading the comments from the previous night. Back to england are easy to rile eh. God eventually in a game of rugby something will happen and a load of people are going to e pleased with themselves andnoatvthemselves on the back. As it is I predict every time Wales lose a scrum they'll try to start a fight and try to get it reversed and captains will flap around as they slip someone's bind and it reaches a shoulder.

[Rugby Fan]

I've seen, heard and read many match previews now. They all boil down to the same: England can win but New Zealand probably will. Most think it'll be a close affair but, if there's a blow-out, then it'll be because England have wilted.

There are few doubts about Scott Barrett's selection. Chris Jones on BBC Radio thinks England could take it as a sign of respect. Most believe Barrett has just been playing so well, Hansen wants his best players out on the pitch at the start.

Insofar as there are any selection questions, they probably crop up more for England. Daly has never been a fan favourite ta full-back but those who object, are resigned to Jones sticking by his man. If he's at fault in an England loss, there will be a big "I told you". A number of commentators - notable Ben Ryan - have always doubted George Ford's credentials in important games, so his performance will come under scrutiny in the aftermatch of a loss.

If England do manage a win, It'll be fascinating to see whether people will conclude New Zealand got something wrong. When England ran them close last year, it wasn't really on account of a glaring weakness on their part, more that we got under their skin, and they made more mistakes than usual (it was very wet).

If it does come down to New Zealand underperforming somewhere, most likely it'll be a consequence of the relative inexperience of some of the starting players, or Barrett being exposed at the back as we fear Daly might be. Also, for all the talk of how well Kieran Read is playing, he has been known to cross the line. Not in a thuggish way: more professional fouls, like pulling players back without the ball. There's always talk of the chickens coming home to roost for Farrell, Sinckler, Lawes or even Tuilagi. There's always a chance one of Read's cute moves gets spotted too.

I go into this match much the same as I do every time we meet New Zealand. Hoping for the best, and fearing the worst. I can't recall ever expecting victory over New Zealand, more going in with varying degrees of confidence. What I thought might be one of our best chances turned into one-way traffic at the 1995 semi-final, so that's proved to be a poor guide.

[maestegmafia]

Maesteg, I think England will edge this one. I think Eddie has them just right in terms of tactics and a full strength squad.

Want to put a score to that claim too..!

I’m currently thinking all blacks by 5-10. I don’t think Eddie has it right, I don’t think the England selection as a team or man for man are the equal of the all blacks, I think there are a few England players who lose their heads when the pressure is on. Farrell, Sinckler and Lawes being prime historic examples

Im picking Youngs there. If we can ruin his confidence I think we can roll the pressure onto Ford and out further.

I’m sure Stevo has watched the tapes but Gareth Davies took England to pieces in the six nations by pressuring Young’s and the flyhalf Farrell. Ford is a much cooler head than Farrell but cutting off their halfback link takes a lot out of the set game plan. Frustration sets in then the game is their for the taking.

But I would imagine the ABs will aim to put 15 points up in the first quarter and let things tick after

I actually think Wales have had more joy out of pressuring Ford than Farrell over the years:

https://youtu.be/EpO7RN5ugbs?t=80

https://youtu.be/L5lLj4PUeDY?t=3739   /   https://youtu.be/L5lLj4PUeDY?t=4098   /   https://youtu.be/L5lLj4PUeDY?t=4824  

https://youtu.be/ltvd-1Tp5DA?t=486   /   https://youtu.be/ltvd-1Tp5DA?t=510

And a bonus with Youngs exploited, by Ford at 10: https://youtu.be/ltvd-1Tp5DA?t=5259

Ford can be got at, for sure.

Thanks, got it...its in Hansens inbox

No worries tell Dazza it’s the same account details as last time...!

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Always a bit of comedy reading the comments from the previous night. Back to england are easy to rile eh. God eventually in a game of rugby something will happen and a load of people are going to  e pleased with themselves andnoatvthemselves on the back. As it is I predict every time Wales lose a scrum they'll try to start a fight and try to get it reversed and captains will flap around as they slip someone's bind and it reaches a shoulder.

Very true. Almost guaranteed

[Taylorman]

I've seen, heard and read many match previews now. They all boil down to the same: England can win but New Zealand probably will. Most think it'll be a close affair but, if there's a blow-out, then it'll be because England have wilted.

There are few doubts about Scott Barrett's selection. Chris Jones on BBC Radio thinks England could take it as a sign of respect. Most believe Barrett has just been playing so well, Hansen wants his best players out on the pitch at the start.

Insofar as there are any selection questions, they probably crop up more for England. Daly has never been a fan favourite ta full-back but those who object, are resigned to Jones sticking by his man. If he's at fault in an England loss, there will be a big "I told you". A number of commentators - notable Ben Ryan - have always doubted George Ford's credentials in important games, so his performance will come under scrutiny in the aftermatch of a loss.

If England do manage a win, It'll be fascinating to see whether people will conclude New Zealand got something wrong. When England ran them close last year, it wasn't really on account of a glaring weakness on their part, more that we got under their skin, and they made more mistakes than usual (it was very wet).

If it does come down to New Zealand underperforming somewhere, most likely it'll be a consequence of the relative inexperience of some of the starting players, or Barrett being exposed at the back as we fear Daly might be. Also, for all the talk of how well Kieran Read is playing, he has been known to cross the line. Not in a thuggish way: more professional fouls, like pulling players back without the ball. There's always talk of the chickens coming home to roost for Farrell, Sinckler, Lawes or even Tuilagi. There's always a chance one of Read's cute moves gets spotted too.

I go into this match much the same as I do every time we meet New Zealand. Hoping for the best, and fearing the worst. I can't recall ever expecting victory over New Zealand, more going in with varying degrees of confidence. What I thought might be one of our best chances turned into one-way traffic at the 1995 semi-final, so that's proved to be a poor guide.

Yeah that’s a fair take, pretty much what I’ve seen as well. Saw one lot of stats which had the ABs playing half the minutes of test rugby at this point this year than they had leading into the AIs last year. A similar scenario to Englands players returning from the Lions tour. This time of the year they’re much fresher, and it’s showing.

ABs play a high risk, high octane game so there’s a whole lot of things that could go wrong with that, which is why accuracy has to be first rate. Luckily vs Ireland it was. Does seem Fords reintro brings risk with it as well. I said he needs to be there for variation but that also requires him to play at his very best. Could be the weak link after all.

[Rugby Fan]

Rain has finally stopped, so we've got 24 hours to dry out before kick-off.

[Dirtydave]

I think the wet might suit England!

I am really looking to support England and Wales this weekend, no matter the winner of the final I think it would be great for everyone up North to dominate the final!

England have a great chance here, I said before the tournament the worst route for NZ to the final was ireland 1/4 and England 1/2. Had they not had a round off to rest, I'd say England's better squad would have enough to win this game, I think the rest period for both hurts england

[TightHEAD]

It rains a bit in NZ too to be fair.

At least we play outside and are use to the elements.

[Dirtydave]

This English pack and bench are on the cusp of being the best 13 players in the world cup, in terms of power and athleticism. The pressure from the English pack and replacement, the relentless power, and ability I think is enough to put NZ exactly where they want them.

I'd be very Optimistic if I was english

[Old Man]

This English pack and bench are on the cusp of being the best 13 players in the world cup, in terms of power and athleticism. The pressure from the English pack and replacement, the relentless power, and ability I think is enough to put NZ exactly where they want them.

I'd be very Optimistic if I was english

I raise you

Tendai Mtwarira
Bongi Mbonambi
Frans Malherbe
Eben Etzebeth
Lood de Jager
Siya Kolisi
Pieter Steph du Toit
Duane Vermeulen.

Just when you think you have survived them

Stephen Kitshoff
Malcom Marx
Vincent Koch
Franco Mostert
Snyman
Louw

[milkyboy]

Really looking forward to the game. Like pretty much everyone, I have the all blacks as favourites but if there’s a side that can test them, England should be it. Last week the ab’s were excellent, but it was put on a platter for them. There’s always a discussion to be had on whether a side played poorly or just weren’t allowed to play well, but to me there were clearly elements of both- an Irish side that prides itself under Schmidt on ball retention, and going through the phases, unravelled with knock ons/unforced errors to gift field position. They were duly punished... you can’t give a team like nz a free head start like that. England need to keep the error count down. Also, discipline has been a continual concern, but it was pretty good against Australia. It needs to be better again this week.

I’d guess if they played 5 times the the abs win 3/4 and by an average margin of 5-10 points. That’s close enough for any one game to be decided by a moment of genius or madness. You’d say the abs are more likely to bring genius and England madness, but it will come down to how individuals handle the occasion. The abs have been here before but they have some inexperience in the side and that can work either way in the pressure cooker. Ford has to show a big match temperament we haven’t seen to date.

It could also be majorly affected by the respective selections. If England can’t win their own line out, then all bets are off.

So, after that measured assessment, the abs will probably stick 40 points on us and I can crawl back into my hole

[LondonTiger]

This English pack and bench are on the cusp of being the best 13 players in the world cup, in terms of power and athleticism. The pressure from the English pack and replacement, the relentless power, and ability I think is enough to put NZ exactly where they want them.

I'd be very Optimistic if I was english

I raise you

Tendai Mtwarira
Bongi Mbonambi
Frans Malherbe
Eben Etzebeth
Lood de Jager
Siya Kolisi
Pieter Steph du Toit
Duane Vermeulen.

Just when you think you have survived them

Stephen Kitshoff
Malcom Marx
Vincent Koch
Franco Mostert
Snyman
Louw

14 usually beats 13

[Dirtydave]

That's a very strong SA pack and bench, but it's athleticism isn't great!

In an arm wrestle they're probably the best, however I think this England pack runs SA ragged, and I think England would go into that game large favourites!

[Taylorman]

This English pack and bench are on the cusp of being the best 13 players in the world cup, in terms of power and athleticism. The pressure from the English pack and replacement, the relentless power, and ability I think is enough to put NZ exactly where they want them.

I'd be very Optimistic if I was english

I raise you

Tendai Mtwarira
Bongi Mbonambi
Frans Malherbe
Eben Etzebeth
Lood de Jager
Siya Kolisi
Pieter Steph du Toit
Duane Vermeulen.

Just when you think you have survived them

Stephen Kitshoff
Malcom Marx
Vincent Koch
Franco Mostert
Snyman
Louw

Whereas I won’t bother. Gotta be said all three sides have got some good stuff. If Dave, and Miaow are right about the extra game, it doesn’t suit Wales here either. Not with more injuries, Williams this time.

Can’t see how Ireland were greatly affected by the extra game. They had a full week since thrashing Samoa, and nine days before that thrashed Russia. If anything they needed the run. As we did vs Italy.

[Dirtydave]

Taylorman

But that's still an extra 80 minutes for ireland, not just physically, but emotionally.

The question is, would you be happy to play 3 matches in 11 days, compared to your opponents 2?

It's ludicrous not to consider an extra match in the same timeframe anything other than a hindrance, especially given how slow and lethargic all 4 teams looked!

[Rinsure]

So pumped for this one, and it's still 23 hours away... honestly, if you can't get excited for a game like this, then why even bother? A single point (and a big-toe length...) the difference between the sides last time they met, too!

England side is per expectations, good to see Wilson on the bench to cover Billy in the event of injury. I reckon this is as close to first choice as it gets. It's two thirds of the team which played in Nov '18, and all the changes would be regarded (by me) as improvements: Mako in for Moon, George in for Hartley, Lawes for Kruis, Curry for Shields, Ford for Te'o (and a positional shift), and Watson for Ashton.

Cannot wait.

[Old Man]

That's a very strong SA pack and bench, but it's athleticism isn't great!

In an arm wrestle they're probably the best, however I think this England pack runs SA ragged, and I think England would go into that game large favourites!

Yeah, that is pure conjecture.

You will be surprised at how many of those forwards are very mobile.

Frans Malherbe is not mobile, Louw and Vermeulen has lost pace, the rest is as mobile as any other pack.

[SecretFly]

I do think the competition is designed to give four games to every side for a reason, or else why ask NZ to play the pools at all? Just let them arrive for the Semi- finals.  Let's face it, they're always good enough to be there anyway.

But the idea of playing the games is to impose a levelling factor in the attritional department.

NZ beat us coz they beat us.  Good rugby can do that to suckers...but...you would want as much rest and recuperation as possible before facing them in an ideal world. Gotta be said, it don't do no harm.

[Big]

Before:
Eddie O'Sullivan:

"I'm really happy about Barrett being at 15 because I don't think he's going to get his hands on the ball as much.

" It's practically impossible to bring him into the game as much as Richie Mo'unga will be.

After:
"Beauden Barrett carried on 21 occasions, more than any other All Black in the history of the Rugby World Cup," Barnes wrote for The Times."

Good one Eddie !

This is an example of the sort of disconnect I mean in terms of knowing how the AB's work.
Barrett was put at FB to allow that he and Mo'unga could adopt a multiple playmakers role.

...

While I broadly agree with the point made you are kind of comparing apples and pears here.  Similar but not the same.  In terms of how many times a player gets their hands on the ball, you have to look at kick, pass and carry - not just the carry stats.  I'm not sure what the exact stats are as scrum.com no longer seem to include kicks, but I wouldn't be surprised if Mo'unga got the ball more often - even if he carried it less.  So it is sort of true that Barrett may well have had less ball than would have been the case at FH.

That said it's not unusual to have a second play-maker coming in from either inside centre or full-back.  I remember a time when Tigers played the fly-half and inside centre effectively covering left and right, rather than fly half inside and centre outside.  And I'm pretty sure Daly is brought in almost as much as the FH for some games, depending on Jones' tactics.  It's not that unusual really, and putting Barrett there probably says something about how NZ intend to play rather than that he is being moved away from the action.

[SecretFly]

That's a very strong SA pack and bench, but it's athleticism isn't great!

In an arm wrestle they're probably the best, however I think this England pack runs SA ragged, and I think England would go into that game large favourites!

Yeah, that is pure conjecture.

You will be surprised at how many of those forwards are very mobile.

Frans Malherbe is not mobile, Louw and Vermeulen has lost pace, the rest is as mobile as any other pack.

I'm not surprised. Japan threw the kitchen sink at them...it was missiles, steps and changing angles coming in at high speed, over and over and over again. SA not only endured but had then plenty in the tank to turn the tide and exhaust the inexhaustible Japanese.

[Dirtydave]

Old man

What? You think Snyman, etzebeth match laws and Itoje for athleticism?

Sinklar, Genge, George, Lawes, Curry, Underhill are all as quick as centres! And some of their engines!!!

The SA pack is brutal, but go watch their highlight reel from the world cup thus far, catch and drive is their go to and most potent weapon, 5 against Namibia!

The SA pack can be shifted around, and they leave space due to their size and inability to be agile, around the fringes they are vulnerable, inside balls, and passing out of contact leave SA forwards off the pace

[No 7&1/2]

We could leave the sa england comparisons to the thread for the final.

[Dirtydave]

Inexhaustible?

That's ludicrous, they played a match 7 days prior, while enduring deaths from a typhoon of their countrymen, all the while in their first ever quarter final...

They were exhausted!

[Soul Requiem]

That's a very strong SA pack and bench, but it's athleticism isn't great!

In an arm wrestle they're probably the best, however I think this England pack runs SA ragged, and I think England would go into that game large favourites!

Yeah, that is pure conjecture.

You will be surprised at how many of those forwards are very mobile.

Frans Malherbe is not mobile, Louw and Vermeulen has lost pace, the rest is as mobile as any other pack.

With the exception of Kolisi I'd give the edge in mobility to pretty much every single England or AB forward.

[Old Man]

That's a very strong SA pack and bench, but it's athleticism isn't great!

In an arm wrestle they're probably the best, however I think this England pack runs SA ragged, and I think England would go into that game large favourites!

Yeah, that is pure conjecture.

You will be surprised at how many of those forwards are very mobile.

Frans Malherbe is not mobile, Louw and Vermeulen has lost pace, the rest is as mobile as any other pack.

With the exception of Kolisi I'd give the edge in mobility to pretty much every single England or AB forward.

Would be nice to see them all in a footrace, unfortunately we can only work with what we have seen.

Mbonambi is quick, RG Snyman is very mobile, and has good hands, Mostert is very mobile and has good hands, Kolisi is quick and good hands, PSDT is very mobile and good hands, Beast is one of the quickest props around, Etzebeth aint bad on the mobility front.

My point is the English pack isn’t going to run these forwards ragged, not even NZ manages to do that.

[SecretFly]

Inexhaustible?

That's ludicrous, they played a match 7 days prior, while enduring deaths from a typhoon of their countrymen, all the while in their first ever quarter final...

They were exhausted!

My point is they played to the concept that they'd never tire and that they'd run opposition into the ground. They were better at that gameplan than most sides so far - only perhaps behind NZ in terms of accuracy levels at steaming pace.
SA were red faced and sucking for air in that first half. But they endured and played on to kill off the Japanese gameplan. Yes, Japan were exhausted at the end. They weren't exhausted in the first half when they fully intended to do most damage on SA.

[Dirtydave]

I understand that, however my point is due to circumstances Japan would've fallen off a cliff second half against pretty much anyone, and ended up losing.

Which highlights my point of fatigue effecting the losing quarter finalists heavily

[No 7&1/2]

Does this need to be discussed across 2 threads one of which is about england and New Zealand?

[LondonTiger]

Does this need to be discussed across 2 5 threads one of which is about england and New Zealand?

Corrected for you

[LondonTiger]

~The rate this thread is going it may well be full before the game starts.

[SecretFly]

Does this need to be discussed across 2 threads one of which is about england and New Zealand?

Ah..the trials of a busy mind. I wasn't counting the number of threads my comments were breaching. I just comment casually in loose cannon mode

Anyway. True. This is the England v New Zealand thread. Dave, behave!

[Noble-Surfer]

Hoping for an England win tomorrow. From a Welsh fan. ;)

[Dirtydave]

Valid point, my apologies...

I'll stick to the thread topic!

I think the England packs relentless power and athleticism will keep them in touch going into the final 10, maybe even with a lead.

From there england have NZ beaters with experience of doing so on NZ soil, Farrell, Tuilagi, Daly etc...

[LondonTiger]

Does this need to be discussed across 2 threads one of which is about england and New Zealand?

Ah..the trials of a busy mind.  I wasn't counting the number of threads my comments were breaching.  I just comment casually in loose cannon mode

Loose cannon is fine.

Seems like too many of us are commenting in loose bowel mode.

[SecretFly]

Hoping for an England win tomorrow. From a Welsh fan.

...but the Japanese would run them off their feet surely?

[No 7&1/2]

Ha. I'm intrigued to see what tactics s england take into this match. And if anything changes should.it go pear shaped. For me england adapted seamlessly vs australia after about 45 mins. Tightened things up went back to basic turned the screw. Can we do that vs nz if needed. Will that Barrett selection mean we cant rely on the lineout?

[LondonTiger]

Valid point, my apologies...

I'll stick to the thread topic!

I think the England packs relentless power and athleticism will keep them in touch going into the final 10, maybe even with a lead.

From there england have NZ beaters with experience of doing so on NZ soil, Farrell, Tuilagi, Daly etc...

Manu has been in a wining team against NZ in NZ.

Mako, Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Farrell, Daly & Watson have. (Ably assisted by Welsh and Irish colleagues)

[Dirtydave]

Tuilagi has beaten NZ, and performed well a couple of times against them. Not to include him would be disingenuous!

Also to drop him behind the likes of Marler who was more of a frustrated passenger on the Lions tour is hardly fair!

My point is, all of these players have beaten NZ, it's not like there is a mental block there.

[Scottrf]

Valid point, my apologies...

I'll stick to the thread topic!

I think the England packs relentless power and athleticism will keep them in touch going into the final 10, maybe even with a lead.

From there england have NZ beaters with experience of doing so on NZ soil, Farrell, Tuilagi, Daly etc...

Manu has been in a wining team against NZ in NZ.

Mako, Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Farrell, Daly & Watson have. (Ably assisted by Welsh and Irish colleagues)

Also Youngs, Cole and Joseph.

[Old Man]

Tuilagi has beaten NZ, and performed well a couple of times against them. Not to include him would be disingenuous!

Also to drop him behind the likes of Marler who was more of a frustrated passenger on the Lions tour is hardly fair!

My point is, all of these players have beaten NZ, it's not like there is a mental block there.

Those that have experienced a win vs NZ, weren’t most of them past of the British and Irish Lions though?

[SecretFly]

Tuilagi has beaten NZ, and performed well a couple of times against them. Not to include him would be disingenuous!

Also to drop him behind the likes of Marler who was more of a frustrated passenger on the Lions tour is hardly fair!

My point is, all of these players have beaten NZ, it's not like there is a mental block there.

......

Rewatch a game from last week.

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