SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST (PART 2)

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Because everyone else is getting a bit excited and the first thread is going to spill over during the match.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

[Old Man]

Dark times for the all blacks, can't see them winning anything for a few years

And you base that on what?

They wouldn't have scored had we not made a mistake. They were very average.

So based on this match and ignoring the previous 8 years they are now done?

[Guest]

Holy schitt - the NZ Herald live feed has gone into meltdown.

One thing I've realised over the last 2 years is the complete and utter difference in attitude to officiating between NZ and British/Irish players. Can say more about that and how things like status and institutionalisation works, but basically, Kiwis don't respect the ref upsetting the game - even if it's to the laws of the game. Had a look at the feed and there's so much moaning about Nigel, all of it unfair. Completely different understanding of the game to what most of us here have grown up with.

[Guest]

Itoje was MOTM, according to World Rugby online. 

Well, that was a very impressive performance, and it puts the Australia game and England’s pool performances into perspective. This is a team that’s capable of taking control of a game and holding onto it for 80 minutes. And I don’t think the ABs can have any complaints about the refereeing this time.

If anything it would be England complaining. I am not wishing to be disparaging to Owens but apart from the tries disallowed (correctly), I saw Whitelock with two choke tackles around the neck that should have been punished and that reversed penalty when he threw Farrell down should have been looked at closer as it looked to me that he head butted him and Farrell was holding his face.

For the choke that occurred just before the Daly missed penalty for bumping Youngs off the ball, Nige told the team his TMO had referred the incident so would have been awarded. Think there's a bit too much criticism of the officials in this thread - fair enough during the hype of the match. Whitelock's push probably a yellow card any other day, but that's what you get with Nige - didn't want to ruin the spectacle. That helped England compete in every area of the field as well, so can't say he just hurt England, at all, really.

[majesticimperialman]

I think it was Grant Fox, who once said New Zealand will now go into mourning for the next 4 years. It is sad for any side to lose a game such as this. But there is only going to one winner. and that is the side with the most points at the end of the game.

I am sure New Zealand will go away regroup and come back fighting, and will be a force again in the next Rugby World Cup.

[Guest]

Lawes is always the one people don't see doing all the hard hidden work, how you can miss him at 2.01m and 120kg I do not know. Should be first on the team sheet in my opinion unless it is a tactical switch.

Thought Nige got it wrong before he even blew his whistle to start. He was standing so close to Ford that he had to pass it to Farrell to allow the kick to the left.

This is wrong, Past it. If you listened to the TV comms you could hear Ford tell Nige he was going to pass it a good 10-15 seconds before he did. It was a set play - the kind of set play they used against Ireland in Dublin. The similarities are uncanny and you have to question NZ's preparation, particulrly the decision to kick it off the park. The innovation was adding a late switch - having Farrell look like he's chasing when he's actually lining up the kick, and so here's more jeopardy and less time for NZ to reset. Subtle things, and Nige played his part in getting out of the way for it.

[TightHEAD]

Dark times for the all blacks, can't see them winning anything for a few years

And you base that on what?

They wouldn't have scored had we not made a mistake. They were very average.

So based on this match and ignoring the previous 8 years they are now done?

Yes. Glad to clear that up for you.

[Guest]

Looking forward to the final if we have to start with Watson and Daly on the wings and Slade at FB it would not be the end of the world

Has Slade ever played FB?

Has Eddie ever given any indication that Daly would play anywhere else?

Cokanasiga and McConnochie are still around, and Nowell must be fittish, for wing duties if May is hamstrung (pardon the pun).

I'd have JC on the bench anyway - was having this discussion earlier. What's the point of two centres on the bench? Slade and JJ are both excellent, but with Faz and Ford on the pitch we don't need 10 cover, and at a push Daly could cover 13, and Watson 15. So, have *one* of Slade or JJ, and Big Joe. Yes, Nowell offers more cover, and he's "nuggety", but JC is a potential game changer.

Slade came on at 15 but could also cover 12 and 13. Joseph could cover 13, wing, and 12 at a push. If Farrell is injured it changes the picture, but with your reserve 10 already on the field, it changes the picture, as you say. Slade did well when he came on.

[TightHEAD]

We would have won in NZ had the Lions not been touring down there too, 3-0

[Heaf]

Itoje was MOTM, according to World Rugby online. 

Well, that was a very impressive performance, and it puts the Australia game and England’s pool performances into perspective. This is a team that’s capable of taking control of a game and holding onto it for 80 minutes. And I don’t think the ABs can have any complaints about the refereeing this time.

If anything it would be England complaining. I am not wishing to be disparaging to Owens but apart from the tries disallowed (correctly), I saw Whitelock with two choke tackles around the neck that should have been punished and that reversed penalty when he threw Farrell down should have been looked at closer as it looked to me that he head butted him and Farrell was holding his face.

For the choke that occurred just before the Daly missed penalty for bumping Youngs off the ball, Nige told the team his TMO had referred the incident so would have been awarded. Think there's a bit too much criticism of the officials in this thread - fair enough during the hype of the match. Whitelock's push probably a yellow card any other day, but that's what you get with Nige - didn't want to ruin the spectacle. That helped England compete in every area of the field as well, so can't say he just hurt England, at all, really.

The amount of forward passes by NZ missed/ignored was atrocious though - you can't just let them go just so you don't 'ruin the spectacle'.

[Guest]

I think you're seeing it through tinted specs. I saw 2 clear ones late in the game - the SBW offload was particularly bad, unless it bounced off the English player's back, as it was almost directly forward. No other clear and obvious forward pass for me.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Itoje was MOTM, according to World Rugby online. 

Well, that was a very impressive performance, and it puts the Australia game and England’s pool performances into perspective. This is a team that’s capable of taking control of a game and holding onto it for 80 minutes. And I don’t think the ABs can have any complaints about the refereeing this time.

If anything it would be England complaining. I am not wishing to be disparaging to Owens but apart from the tries disallowed (correctly), I saw Whitelock with two choke tackles around the neck that should have been punished and that reversed penalty when he threw Farrell down should have been looked at closer as it looked to me that he head butted him and Farrell was holding his face.

For the choke that occurred just before the Daly missed penalty for bumping Youngs off the ball, Nige told the team his TMO had referred the incident so would have been awarded. Think there's a bit too much criticism of the officials in this thread - fair enough during the hype of the match. Whitelock's push probably a yellow card any other day, but that's what you get with Nige - didn't want to ruin the spectacle. That helped England compete in every area of the field as well, so can't say he just hurt England, at all, really.

The amount of forward passes by NZ missed/ignored was atrocious though - you can't just let them go just so you don't 'ruin the spectacle'.  

Agreed it was mentioned in commentary 3 or 4 times

[Heaf]

I saw way more than 2 even with my one eye

[LondonTiger]

Looking forward to the final if we have to start with Watson and Daly on the wings and Slade at FB it would not be the end of the world

Has Slade ever played FB?

Has Eddie ever given any indication that Daly would play anywhere else?

Cokanasiga and McConnochie are still around, and Nowell must be fittish, for wing duties if May is hamstrung (pardon the pun).

I'd have JC on the bench anyway - was having this discussion earlier. What's the point of two centres on the bench? Slade and JJ are both excellent, but with Faz and Ford on the pitch we don't need 10 cover, and at a push Daly could cover 13, and Watson 15. So, have *one* of Slade or JJ, and Big Joe. Yes, Nowell offers more cover, and he's "nuggety", but JC is a potential game changer.

How did they rearrange when May went off? Thought Daly went to wing and Slade to FB

[Guest]

I must have missed them then.

Anyway, lots of talk pre-match about the haka etc. - what do you think the effect of England doing this had?

Absolutely, 100% set the tone I feel. We talk about NZ 'getting angry' when the haka is challenged - what about bottling it a little bit in the face of rugged acceptance of the challenge?

[Taylorman]

(Maj) That won’t happen this time, that will have been the 91, 95 loss. Thing about winning so much is you appreciate it more when you lose.

I’d long prepared for a loss here should it happen so Ill just get on with other stuff while ‘the rest of the country’ weep.

There is good and bad in the ABs losing. For one it clears the cobwebs. It gives them something to get excited about again.

When the ABs lose big matches, this is always how they lose, beaten up physically. England were in their faces all day and gave them no time or space on the ball. 2003 under Eddie is very similar. Did mention before the match that Eddies confidence was a bit concerning. We’ve seen this before.

All of NZ, Ireland, Wales, Oz start with new coaches, and I wouldn’t say Foster is a gimme for top job anymore. Hansen tried putting the kids out again for this one and got burnt. Robertson is more in tune with those kids and has matching energy.

Pretty sure England will go on and win this but they’ll need to regroup and forget that match. There’s a bit of a history around sides losing to them ABs in this then going out next match. Oz in 91 the only exception. 99, 03, 07...all three lost next match, either the overconfidence or effort from the win getting to them somehow. Eddies win was one of them.

NZ rugby gets rejuvenated now. I think we’ll see a lot of players exiting overseas, leaving the younger ones deal with the comeback.

Good luck Wales and SA, one of you has two vey difficult matches to win.

The loser might just pay for NZ losing here, NZ usually come back strong, and no doubt Hansen will give all those that didn’t play a run.

[Collapse2005]

Good chance we will see a SAANZAR slam from England at this RWC.

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah cant imagine it'll be nice for the guys in the 3rd 4th play off. I imagine it'll be pretty brutal tomorrow and they only have 5 days rest.

[Duty281]

I see England’s first autumn international of 2020 will be against New Zealand.

[robbo277]

There were a couple of forward passes. There weren't loads and I'm sure if they'd amounted to anything they'd be checked.

Slade came for May and moved to 15 with Daly shifting to the wing. If May isn't fit do you go with the better player (Slade) or the like-for-like (Cokanasiga or Nowell)? I think if Nowell is fit it's easier decision.

I think if anyone is injured we might see someone flied out soon, even if they don't get used.

[Taylorman]

I see England’s first autumn international of 2020 will be against New Zealand.

Will it? Another stat is NZ has beaten every world champion the next time they played them, bar, again, 91. Just a stat.

[LondonTiger]

Dark times for the all blacks, can't see them winning anything for a few years

And you base that on what?

They wouldn't have scored had we not made a mistake. They were very average.

So based on this match and ignoring the previous 8 years they are now done?

Yes. Glad to clear that up for you.

Well let's see what happens in the RC next year. Personally I think the original premise is utter claptrap. NZ are a very good side and will not be going anywhere. The new coach will immediately move out a few players, but not many, and they will evolve all the time staying as one of the very best teams.

For a decade NZ have been a great side. Today it took the best performance I have ever seen from England to knock them out. We should be celebrating that rather than trying to put the boot in like a blind man at a hoe down.

[Guest]

Who were potential injury worries?

- Nowell (longish term)
- Farrell (leg?)
- May (hamstring)
- Sinckler (??)

Anyone else?

[No 7&1/2]

Heinz.

[Collapse2005]

I see England’s first autumn international of 2020 will be against New Zealand.

Will it? Another stat is NZ has beaten every world champion the next time they played them, bar, again, 91. Just a stat.

So have Ireland after the 03, 07 and 15 RWCs.

[LondonTiger]

Also, thank f that'll be the last of the Kiwi crowing on here from a certain poster - no more SH superiority, no more bull, no more diatribes about 'wait for the WC'. Has to be said, everyone's thinking it.

Personally would have been better left unsaid.

[Guest]

Heinz.

What happened to him? Didn't see him go off.

[Heaf]

I must have missed them then.

Anyway, lots of talk pre-match about the haka etc. - what do you think the effect of England doing this had?

Absolutely, 100% set the tone I feel. We talk about NZ 'getting angry' when the haka is challenged - what about bottling it a little bit in the face of rugged acceptance of the challenge?

I'm not convinced either team is really affected either way to be honest - I think the effect is a bit over hyped ...

[No 7&1/2]

He was barely walking at the end. Didn't see what happened just noticed him hobbling to a ruck. Big issue as if there any sort of doubt he needs a replacement asap. Spencer or wigglesworth.

[LondonTiger]

Congrats to england, never looked anything other than dominant!

Are we witnessing the NH money starting to take control of the international game?

No. Full credit goes to England - Scotland and Ireland have flattered to deceive, and Wales, apart from Gatland and Parkes, are pretty much homegrown.

Credit goes to Eddie Jones and Borthwick and the rest of the coaches and players who've played for the last 4 years - I didn't think EJ would get his team up like he has but he's got it right these last 6 months, starting with that Irish game in Dublin while the groundwork was laid in the autumn campaign. After watching the absolute slugfest on BT Sport last night between Exeter and Bath, you have to say huge credit goes to getting these players up to a standard so far beyond the 'norm' in the domestic game.

Did not see last nights game, but stodgy early season performances are not uncommon in any league. Last season was really good for attacking rugby culminating in a scintillating final.

[Taylorman]

No worries, TH started crying about the ref ten minutes in. We get that sometimes. ‘Can’t see them winning anything for a few years’. Ha ha, like that’s ever happened.

You get some over excited ones, the ABs usually bring them down with a thump soon enough. It was England that capitulated like a wet fish after their only win so better be careful what you ask for.

This is a hiccup. They’ll be back. They always are.

[Guest]

Yep, definitely. Thought he did well when he came on - but also thought Youngs played well and don't get the criticism he receives.

Not too many injuries the, really. Probably only May who's out given the others look like knocks.

[Duty281]

Congrats to england, never looked anything other than dominant!

Are we witnessing the NH money starting to take control of the international game?

No. Full credit goes to England - Scotland and Ireland have flattered to deceive, and Wales, apart from Gatland and Parkes, are pretty much homegrown.

Credit goes to Eddie Jones and Borthwick and the rest of the coaches and players who've played for the last 4 years - I didn't think EJ would get his team up like he has but he's got it right these last 6 months, starting with that Irish game in Dublin while the groundwork was laid in the autumn campaign. After watching the absolute slugfest on BT Sport last night between Exeter and Bath, you have to say huge credit goes to getting these players up to a standard so far beyond the 'norm' in the domestic game.

Did not see last nights game, but stodgy early season performances are not uncommon in any league. Last season was really good for attacking rugby culminating in a scintillating final.

And the weather last night was absolutely atrocious.

[Guest]

Did not see last nights game, but stodgy early season performances are not uncommon in any league. Last season was really good for attacking rugby culminating in a scintillating final.

I see your point but I'm less convinced LT. NZ called up the Super Rugby stars - namely Bridge and Reece from the Crusaders - and, inexperience apart, they slot right in to test rugby. The analogy to the English league would be someone like Don Armand and the calls for him to play - or even Cipriani, or anyone, really, who is a good club man. The same issue Ireland have with translating Leinster's ominance to the test (hurt) arena. Just an observation, really, at how well EJ has done in the last 12 months to stop the rot and turn it back around. Curry and Underhill utterly vital to that.

[Guest]

I'm not convinced either team is really affected either way to be honest - I think the effect is a bit over hyped ...

It's definitely over hyped in the media, but I don't think it has 0 influence. Otherwise England wouldn't have done it. Good call tbh. It's getting a bit too symbolic, but that inverted V really was what England did - smothered them.

[Taylorman]

I must have missed them then.

Anyway, lots of talk pre-match about the haka etc. - what do you think the effect of England doing this had?

Absolutely, 100% set the tone I feel. We talk about NZ 'getting angry' when the haka is challenged - what about bottling it a little bit in the face of rugged acceptance of the challenge?

I'm not convinced either team is really affected either way to be honest - I think the effect is a bit over hyped ...

Neither do I, it’s the fans that project all sorts of doom around the haka, the players are prepared for a test match, they’re not going to worry about the haka. I liked the English response, thought it was classy. Got the refs a little nervy as they went over the line but too bad, one of the best responses I’ve seen. Made a strong, non verbal statement, yet remained just as respectful as the ABs delivering it. Said a lot for their inner resolve, which they confirmed. Great stuff.

[kingelderfield]

How much has todays game taken out of us?
Thankfully we'll have the extra day.

[TightHEAD]

I think you're seeing it through tinted specs. I saw 2 clear ones late in the game - the SBW offload was particularly bad, unless it bounced off the English player's back, as it was almost directly forward. No other clear and obvious forward pass for me.

I saw at least 7 forward passes, 3 choke tackles and a dodgy TMO who clearly had a big bet on a NZ win

[TightHEAD]

How much has todays game taken out of us?
Thankfully we'll have the extra day.

Tomorrow's game will be brutal, at least our lot are wrapped up warm in bed resting/ bodies repairing as we speak.

[Duty281]

How much has todays game taken out of us?
Thankfully we'll have the extra day.

Not nearly as much as I was anticipating! Bar the few who are battling injury, I think England are in tip-top shape for the final.

[Soul Requiem]

Who cares we won and deserved, it took one hell of a performance.

[Guest]

I think you're seeing it through tinted specs. I saw 2 clear ones late in the game - the SBW offload was particularly bad, unless it bounced off the English player's back, as it was almost directly forward. No other clear and obvious forward pass for me.

I saw at least 7 forward passes, 3 choke tackles and a dodgy TMO who clearly had a big bet on a NZ win

...and a partridge in a pear tree.

[Heaf]

I must have missed them then.

Anyway, lots of talk pre-match about the haka etc. - what do you think the effect of England doing this had?

Absolutely, 100% set the tone I feel. We talk about NZ 'getting angry' when the haka is challenged - what about bottling it a little bit in the face of rugged acceptance of the challenge?

I'm not convinced either team is really affected either way to be honest - I think the effect is a bit over hyped ...

Neither do I, it’s the fans that project all sorts of doom around the haka, the players are prepared for a test match, they’re not going to worry about the haka. I liked the English response, thought it was classy. Got the refs a little nervy as they went over the line but too bad, one of the best responses I’ve seen. Made a strong, non verbal statement, yet remained just as respectful as the ABs delivering it. Said a lot for their inner resolve, which they confirmed. Great stuff.

Exactly just being there is more than enough motivation for the players I would have thought ...

[Old Man]

I think you're seeing it through tinted specs. I saw 2 clear ones late in the game - the SBW offload was particularly bad, unless it bounced off the English player's back, as it was almost directly forward. No other clear and obvious forward pass for me.

I saw at least 7 forward passes, 3 choke tackles and a dodgy TMO who clearly had a big bet on a NZ win

...and a partridge in a pear tree.

No dead people?

[Taylorman]

I think you're seeing it through tinted specs. I saw 2 clear ones late in the game - the SBW offload was particularly bad, unless it bounced off the English player's back, as it was almost directly forward. No other clear and obvious forward pass for me.

I saw at least 7 forward passes, 3 choke tackles and a dodgy TMO who clearly had a big bet on a NZ win

As you keep saying. Yawn. Enjoy the win. Who barfs on about refs when they win? Pointless. ‘Clearly had a big bet on a nz win’.

[Guest]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50196106

Stay humble.

[TightHEAD]

Ref was ok, touch judges and TMO were clearly overwhelmed and forgot the basics in officiating

[No 7&1/2]

Just watching the youngs try. Really cant work out whose hand that is ahead of george.

[Taylorman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/50196106

Stay humble.

Thought that was a good response. The reporter tried to take the win effort away from England by saying the ABs didn’t want it enough. Hansen put the reporter in his place, telling him the ABs were up for it but just weren’t good enough on the night, England were too good.

[Guest]

Nope. It was spot on and completely fair.

NZ were overly hungry against an over the hill Ireland. Too much focus and prep went in to beating the team that had beaten them, rather than who was the demonstrably better team. It's not just the players that are at fault for that - it's the coaches, too. He knows the implications of that question and he knows it's spot on.

Classic bully tactics from Hansen. You don't bite on a question like that unless you know it's true.

[TightHEAD]

In Eddie we trust, bet he is already up planning/plotting. I wonder what wum he'll use on the media this week.

[Sponsored content]