2019 General Election

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Now it's confirmed for December 12th (pretty much), I thought we should have a shiny new thread for the fourth and final UK GE of this tumultuous decade; a decade which has also included three referendums and four (maybe five) different Prime Ministers.

News this morning that Amber Rudd won't be defending her seat. Oh well.

Opinion polls currently have the Tories in a double digit lead, but it's anticipated to be a lot tighter than that by the time we reach the actual polling day.

Not that I have much faith in Corbyn....But his approvals are so low if he puts in a decent performance and doesn't rise to the idiot's smears and lies...

He should come out of it okay.

Denounce anti Semitism...Score on the NHS...Mention nearly a million kids living in absolute poverty.

Truly sickening..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not that I have much faith in Corbyn....But his approvals are so low if he puts in a decent performance and doesn't rise to the idiot's smears and lies...

He should come out of it okay.

Denounce anti Semitism...Score on the NHS...Mention nearly a million kids living in absolute poverty.

Truly sickening..

He needs to be prepared to nail Johnson to the post on every false claim he tries to make. You can bet that Johnson will repeat the cowpat about 40 new hospitals and 20k new police and Labours £1.2tn costings. He also needs to take Johnson to task if he starts bumbling and dancing around issues like he does. Be unrelenting and dont let him get away with it. Its not that hard to go face to face with Johnson and come away looking the better person, so if he doesnt manage he’s toast.

Staggered that Johnson didn't want the SNP..Greens...PC..and the Lib Dems + Brexit Party there...

They could all moan about Anti Semitism..Brexit and dilute the cordial..While arguing with eachother over more time....

Especially as Swinson won't rule out a Coalition with the Tories..

One to One gives Corbyn more time to look Human.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not that I have much faith in Corbyn....But his approvals are so low if he puts in a decent performance and doesn't rise to the idiot's smears and lies...

He should come out of it okay.

Denounce anti Semitism...Score on the NHS...Mention nearly a million kids living in absolute poverty.

Truly sickening..

The anti semitism is the worry as it's not Corbyn, but a party problem. given that after windrush, and Baroness Warsi saying that the conservatives were racist from top to bottom. Very little was made of that, maybe he should turn it around?

On Marr on Sunday, Corbyn looked absolutely awful. Tired, drawn and exhausted. If he shows up like that tonight, Johnson will make mincemeat of him. To be fair, even if Corbyn turns up in a normal state Johnson will likely make light work of him, if PMQs is anything to go by.

Either way, short of a completely major gaffe by either man, these debates will alter little about the complexion of the election and the upcoming reality of the Tories winning most seats.

It’s not something I see doing too much for anyone. It’s sad that Corbyn didn’t make a public effort to let LDs or SNP in as it would make him look good and would reflect well on him from voters unsure on who to choose of those three (them and Labour)

But it’s not important, really. I don’t think these debates work in England

Unless you've got a Blair or Cameron type as leader it's pretty pointless, you need an orator not a bumbler or a protester.

Duty281 wrote:On Marr on Sunday, Corbyn looked absolutely awful. Tired, drawn and exhausted. If he shows up like that tonight, Johnson will make mincemeat of him. To be fair, even if Corbyn turns up in a normal state Johnson will likely make light work of him, if PMQs is anything to go by.

Either way, short of a completely major gaffe by either man, these debates will alter little about the complexion of the election and the upcoming reality of the Tories winning most seats.

Must be working from a pretty low bar if you think answering questions on Poverty and the NHS by screaming "Antisemite" and "Communist" wins you PMQs every week.

PMQs, isn't a good reflection. As you don't have to answer the question, and can just say anything you like. After all Teresa may did well against him in PMQS, but was rubbish in the debate. When you actually have to answer the question.
And given Johnson's habit to try and change facts like on the BBC interviews to make him look good. A strong moderator is a must.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:On Marr on Sunday, Corbyn looked absolutely awful. Tired, drawn and exhausted. If he shows up like that tonight, Johnson will make mincemeat of him. To be fair, even if Corbyn turns up in a normal state Johnson will likely make light work of him, if PMQs is anything to go by.

Either way, short of a completely major gaffe by either man, these debates will alter little about the complexion of the election and the upcoming reality of the Tories winning most seats.

Must be working from a pretty low bar if you think answering questions on Poverty and the NHS by screaming "Antisemite" and "Communist" wins you PMQs every week.

I don't think anyone wins 'PMQs', which is a silly spectacle, it's just plainly obvious that Corbyn struggles to think on his feet and isn't sharp at all.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:But it’s not important, really. I don’t think these debates work in England

Agreed, I don't think they suit the system we have as a country and I wish we didn't have them.

Luke wrote:PMQs, isn't a good reflection. As you don't have to answer the question, and can just say anything you like. After all Teresa may did well against him in PMQS, but was rubbish in the debate. When you actually have to answer the question.
And given Johnson's habit to try and change facts like on the BBC interviews to make him look good. A strong moderator is a must.

This. There's no excuse for Julie Etchingham not to correct Johnson's false claims tonight when she must know they're coming. It's not just the two leaders who need to prepare.

As I've said before, it shouldn't be left to Corbyn to call them out. If it is, then it comes across as Johnson's word against Corbyn's.

Samo wrote:Big test for Corbyn in tonights debate. He cant focus too much on attacking Johnson, needs to be clear and concise to counter any points Johnson makes against him.

With all the various scandals around the Tories right now, Johnson is there for the taking. If Corbyn doesnt come out of this looking like a winner then he can kiss goodbye to any slim chance he had at a majority.

One line that I think will really do well for Corbyn is one he's previosuly tweeted: that if he was proposing a national health service at this election, it would be attacked by the Conservatives as health communism.

He should also respond to every attack on nationalisation plans by listing the other European countries that already have state-owned rail (for example). The Tory angle that nationalisation is unaffordable and unworkable relies on ignorance of how common it is elsewhere.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Samo wrote:Big test for Corbyn in tonights debate. He cant focus too much on attacking Johnson, needs to be clear and concise to counter any points Johnson makes against him.

With all the various scandals around the Tories right now, Johnson is there for the taking. If Corbyn doesnt come out of this looking like a winner then he can kiss goodbye to any slim chance he had at a majority.

One line that I think will really do well for Corbyn is that if he was proposing a national health service at this election, it would be attacked by the Conservatives as health communism. He should also respond to every attack on nationalisation plans by listing the other European countries that already have state-owned rail (for example). The Tory angle that nationalisation is unaffordable and unworkable relies on ignorance of how common it is elsewhere.

How many European countries had private rail and then returned to state owned?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Luke wrote:PMQs, isn't a good reflection. As you don't have to answer the question, and can just say anything you like. After all Teresa may did well against him in PMQS, but was rubbish in the debate. When you actually have to answer the question.
And given Johnson's habit to try and change facts like on the BBC interviews to make him look good. A strong moderator is a must.

This. There's no excuse for Julie Etchingham not to correct Johnson's false claims tonight when she must know they're coming. It's not just the two leaders who need to prepare.

As I've said before, it shouldn't be left to Corbyn to call them out. If it is, then it comes across as Johnson's word against Corbyn's.

There's also no excuse for Julie Etchingham not to correct Corbyn's false claims tonight when she much know they're coming - it shouldn't be left to Johnson to call them out - but I won't hold my breath!

Soul Requiem wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Samo wrote:Big test for Corbyn in tonights debate. He cant focus too much on attacking Johnson, needs to be clear and concise to counter any points Johnson makes against him.

With all the various scandals around the Tories right now, Johnson is there for the taking. If Corbyn doesnt come out of this looking like a winner then he can kiss goodbye to any slim chance he had at a majority.

One line that I think will really do well for Corbyn is that if he was proposing a national health service at this election, it would be attacked by the Conservatives as health communism. He should also respond to every attack on nationalisation plans by listing the other European countries that already have state-owned rail (for example). The Tory angle that nationalisation is unaffordable and unworkable relies on ignorance of how common it is elsewhere.

How many European countries had private rail and then returned to state owned?

I don't see what relevance that has. Are you saying that nothing that's been privatised can be renationalised?

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:On Marr on Sunday, Corbyn looked absolutely awful. Tired, drawn and exhausted. If he shows up like that tonight, Johnson will make mincemeat of him. To be fair, even if Corbyn turns up in a normal state Johnson will likely make light work of him, if PMQs is anything to go by.

Either way, short of a completely major gaffe by either man, these debates will alter little about the complexion of the election and the upcoming reality of the Tories winning most seats.

Must be working from a pretty low bar if you think answering questions on Poverty and the NHS by screaming "Antisemite" and "Communist" wins you PMQs every week.

I don't think anyone wins 'PMQs', which is a silly spectacle, it's just plainly obvious that Corbyn struggles to think on his feet and isn't sharp at all.

To be fair I don't get the chance to watch it generally...But I do read the Guardian's coverage every week....Of the Qs and As..

My post was probably a little more flippant and condescending than necessary..

Think while agreeing that the debates won't change the GE outcome they do give a chance for someone to change an impression with the few floaters out there....

In marginals......Maybe keep the majority down a bit.

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Luke wrote:PMQs, isn't a good reflection. As you don't have to answer the question, and can just say anything you like. After all Teresa may did well against him in PMQS, but was rubbish in the debate. When you actually have to answer the question.
And given Johnson's habit to try and change facts like on the BBC interviews to make him look good. A strong moderator is a must.

This. There's no excuse for Julie Etchingham not to correct Johnson's false claims tonight when she must know they're coming. It's not just the two leaders who need to prepare.

As I've said before, it shouldn't be left to Corbyn to call them out. If it is, then it comes across as Johnson's word against Corbyn's.

There's also no excuse for Julie Etchingham not to correct Corbyn's false claims tonight when she much know they're coming - it shouldn't be left to Johnson to call them out - but I won't hold my breath!

She should do it for both, I agree. If it's left to each leader to fact-check the other, then she's not being much use.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Samo wrote:Big test for Corbyn in tonights debate. He cant focus too much on attacking Johnson, needs to be clear and concise to counter any points Johnson makes against him.

With all the various scandals around the Tories right now, Johnson is there for the taking. If Corbyn doesnt come out of this looking like a winner then he can kiss goodbye to any slim chance he had at a majority.

One line that I think will really do well for Corbyn is that if he was proposing a national health service at this election, it would be attacked by the Conservatives as health communism. He should also respond to every attack on nationalisation plans by listing the other European countries that already have state-owned rail (for example). The Tory angle that nationalisation is unaffordable and unworkable relies on ignorance of how common it is elsewhere.

How many European countries had private rail and then returned to state owned?

I don't see what relevance that has. Are you saying that nothing that's been privatised can be renationalised?

I'm saying that you're comparing countries that have at no point had privatised rail with a country that does, staying nationalised has no additional costs compared to renationalising which will cost billions, it's apples and pears to be honest.

Surely that's only an issue if Corbyn says it won't cost anything to renationalise?

The point I was trying to make is that if people are made aware that state-owned rail, for example, is common on the continent, then the Tory line that it's pie-in-the-sky doesn't have half the impact.

If you can put forward a single country as example that has renationalised then you may have a point, staying nationalised isn't pie in the sky but renationalising is.

Samo wrote:He needs to be prepared to nail Johnson to the post on every false claim he tries to make. You can bet that Johnson will repeat the cowpat about 40 new hospitals and 20k new police and Labours £1.2tn costings. He also needs to take Johnson to task if he starts bumbling and dancing around issues like he does. Be unrelenting and dont let him get away with it. Its not that hard to go face to face with Johnson and come away looking the better person, so if he doesnt manage he’s toast.

If he only had a brain...

Seriously, if it was one of the MP's with a legal background up against Johnson (Starmer, Cherry, Cooper) this could be truly brutal. He really doesn't like that level of questioning.

Corbyn comes across both as limited and easy to rile. Johnson as having no command of detail and no conscience. Having any of the other leaders up there would show them up as would any comparison with normal humans.

Forgive me but I think you're still missing the point I'm trying to make: that the Tory line that nationalisation is a wild hard-left proposition relies on the audience not knowing how common it is.

That's all I'm saying. I'm aware there's a difference between staying nationalised and renationalisation!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:On Marr on Sunday, Corbyn looked absolutely awful. Tired, drawn and exhausted. If he shows up like that tonight, Johnson will make mincemeat of him. To be fair, even if Corbyn turns up in a normal state Johnson will likely make light work of him, if PMQs is anything to go by.

Either way, short of a completely major gaffe by either man, these debates will alter little about the complexion of the election and the upcoming reality of the Tories winning most seats.

Must be working from a pretty low bar if you think answering questions on Poverty and the NHS by screaming "Antisemite" and "Communist" wins you PMQs every week.

I don't think anyone wins 'PMQs', which is a silly spectacle, it's just plainly obvious that Corbyn struggles to think on his feet and isn't sharp at all.

To be fair I don't get the chance to watch it generally...But I do read the Guardian's coverage every week....Of the Qs and As..

My post was probably a little more flippant and condescending than necessary..

Think while agreeing that the debates won't change the GE outcome they do give a chance for someone to change an impression with the few floaters out there....

In marginals......Maybe keep the majority down a bit.

BJ is fairly terrible debater himself. Hardly set the world on fire in the Tory debates and I don’t remember them myself, but apparently he was fairly woeful vs Livingstone in mayoral debates. And he has a record to defend, unlike Corbyn, which is always harder.

I do expect Corbyn to ‘win’ tonight, but will it matter? Probably not.

Duty281 wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:But it’s not important, really. I don’t think these debates work in England

Agreed, I don't think they suit the system we have as a country and I wish we didn't have them.

given that we have the first past the post system. The leaders debates do fit that system more.
The issue is, that it should be all the leaders , and that's were it would just be stupid.

Ladbrokes debate winner (based on a snap YouGov poll): Corbyn 8/11, Johnson evens.

I completely disagree with those saying that these debates don't matter.

To us who are engaged with politics, are posting on a forum discussing current events, it probably doesn't. We see through the false claims and look at the points raised.

But there are so many people not engaged with politics, don't have a clue what's going on. I spoke to a relative on the phone last night who didn't even know there was an upcoming election. And I think these sorts of debates are what will decide those who are less engaged. If Corbyn does well, then I can see it encouraging those who feel left out, younger people who perhaps aren't sure about voting to come out and support Labour.

I think it benefits the two of them it being a one v one debate, Sturgeon, Swinson or even Farage I feel come across better in debates. Even though it's an archaic system, first past the post means that most people will just vote Labour or Tory.

I totally agree with that (was just going to say the same) and I will add I think this debate, and subsequent ones, that it does give a chance for Boris to make the massive gaff that Labour seem to need him to make.

It is whether the Corbyn or the audience can pressure him enough to make it. I think he got away with it in the mayor debates as it wasn't nationwide and the Tory leader debates because there were too many of them to really get him in a sweat.

I am not saying it WILL happen, but keeping Boris on TV and out of his comfort zone gives Corbyn a chance he has to take.

TwisT wrote:I totally agree with that (was just going to say the same) and I will add I think this debate, and subsequent ones, that it does give a chance for Boris to make the massive gaff that Labour seem to need him to make.

It is whether the Corbyn or the audience can pressure him enough to make it. I think he got away with it in the mayor debates as it wasn't nationwide and the Tory leader debates because there were too many of them to really get him in a sweat.

I am not saying it WILL happen, but keeping Boris on TV and out of his comfort zone gives Corbyn a chance he has to take.

The problem is that you could take that statement above and swap their names around and wouldn't be far off. I doubt that we have ever had such an appalling choice for prospective PM.

lostinwales wrote:

TwisT wrote:I totally agree with that (was just going to say the same) and I will add I think this debate, and subsequent ones, that it does give a chance for Boris to make the massive gaff that Labour seem to need him to make.

It is whether the Corbyn or the audience can pressure him enough to make it. I think he got away with it in the mayor debates as it wasn't nationwide and the Tory leader debates because there were too many of them to really get him in a sweat.

I am not saying it WILL happen, but keeping Boris on TV and out of his comfort zone gives Corbyn a chance he has to take.

The problem is that you could take that statement above and swap their names around and wouldn't be far off. I doubt that we have ever had such an appalling choice for prospective PM.

Very true and Johnson and Corbyn's leadrships are an indictment of so called moderate Politicians for the Expenses scandal...For needless Austerity and a stupid Brexit referendum brought on because of potential UKIP gains from the Tories..

Kantar..

Con....45  +8
Lab.....27   =
Lib......16   -1
BP........ 2    -7

Not much point Farage standing in Labour seats either.. What a complete Clown....Been completely played..

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Luke wrote:PMQs, isn't a good reflection. As you don't have to answer the question, and can just say anything you like. After all Teresa may did well against him in PMQS, but was rubbish in the debate. When you actually have to answer the question.
And given Johnson's habit to try and change facts like on the BBC interviews to make him look good. A strong moderator is a must.

This. There's no excuse for Julie Etchingham not to correct Johnson's false claims tonight when she must know they're coming. It's not just the two leaders who need to prepare.

As I've said before, it shouldn't be left to Corbyn to call them out. If it is, then it comes across as Johnson's word against Corbyn's.

I'd actually like to see James O'Brien have a go. He's not one to let cowpat go uncalled out, and even though he's a leftie he's never really liked Corbyn, so would hold him to the same accountability as Johnson.

Samo wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Luke wrote:PMQs, isn't a good reflection. As you don't have to answer the question, and can just say anything you like. After all Teresa may did well against him in PMQS, but was rubbish in the debate. When you actually have to answer the question.
And given Johnson's habit to try and change facts like on the BBC interviews to make him look good. A strong moderator is a must.

This. There's no excuse for Julie Etchingham not to correct Johnson's false claims tonight when she must know they're coming. It's not just the two leaders who need to prepare.

As I've said before, it shouldn't be left to Corbyn to call them out. If it is, then it comes across as Johnson's word against Corbyn's.

I'd actually like to see James O'Brien have a go.  He's not one to let cowpat go uncalled out, and even though he's a leftie he's never really liked Corbyn, so would hold him to the same accountability as Johnson.

Even I'll admin he'd be biased af.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Kantar..

Con....45  +8
Lab.....27   =
Lib......16   -1
BP........ 2    -7

If this poll were reality, we'd see the Tories with over 400 seats and the Labour Party around 150...Blairite numbers!

Hopefully we can move off Brexit now. Interesting first half hour on Boris's subject. So he's been fairly strong. Though his avoiding answering the 3rd question is typical.

This is getting boring. Both of them constantly going over the alloted time. Boris constantly turning every question back to Brexit. Jeremy going after austerity.

Surprised at how passive Corbyn was and how many questions he evaded - particularly the one over whether or not he would campaign for or against the deal he would negotiate. Johnson seemed to get his core message (Tories = certainty; Labour = uncertainty) across much better, but how believable he was is another matter entirely.

Moderator had a tough job as both kept going over time - couldn't they have cut their mics when this happened?

This will have changed very little, overall, and was entirely unmemorable. Doubt it'll be remembered by polling day, in truth!

Duty281 wrote:Ladbrokes debate winner (based on a snap YouGov poll): Corbyn 8/11, Johnson evens.

YouGov - Who won it? Johnson 51%, Corbyn 49% (excluding the don't knows).

Cheers Bozza.

Duty281 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Ladbrokes debate winner (based on a snap YouGov poll): Corbyn 8/11, Johnson evens.

YouGov - Who won it? Johnson 51%, Corbyn 49% (excluding the don't knows).

Cheers Bozza.

1,060 sample of people who bothered to respond regardless of Party affiliation..

Bless you..

I thought the debate was too short and had no winner..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Ladbrokes debate winner (based on a snap YouGov poll): Corbyn 8/11, Johnson evens.

YouGov - Who won it? Johnson 51%, Corbyn 49% (excluding the don't knows).

Cheers Bozza.

1,060 sample of people who bothered to respond regardless of Party affiliation..

Bless you..

I thought the debate was too short and had no winner..

I too thought the same thing and I'm only happy because my even money bet came rolling in, bless you...

There were no winners or losers in this debate - and the whole thing will be forgotten about by Friday.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Ladbrokes debate winner (based on a snap YouGov poll): Corbyn 8/11, Johnson evens.

YouGov - Who won it? Johnson 51%, Corbyn 49% (excluding the don't knows).

Cheers Bozza.

1,060 sample of people who bothered to respond regardless of Party affiliation..

Bless you..

I thought the debate was too short and had no winner..

Agree it was to short. And thought they spent to long on brexit. Nearly half the show.
As I said both were constantly going over there time and agree with duty should have cut mics or something.
In my opinion, neither really stood out afterwards. And tend to agree this will be forgotten by the weekend.

Is there anymore?

In terms of head to head, Johnson and Corbyn will be doing a BBC debate on December 6th. There's also plenty of other debates with more leaders featured, but I'm unsure of the formats involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election#Television_debates

Afro wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:It also says a lot about the prevailing "I'm alright, Jack" attitude in the UK right now.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure it does. Why would you expect older people to be more "I'm alright, Jack" than carefree youth? Especially those in the 65+ bracket who, with all due respect to them, have most of their lives behind them?
It suggests that as people age, they acquire more responsibilities, many of which require money. It also suggests that increased experience of life, realities and how economies work, might have something to do with it.

It could also partly be that those who are older lived through periods of either economic uncertainty under Labour governments (particularly 1974-79), and also a period of cold war and propaganda where Russia and Socialism were the enemies, which in turn influences their view of labour

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Could be they have selective amnesia too...I remember Black Wednesday and a recession happening twenty five years or so ago and I don't remember John Major ever being 'Labour'..

Absolutely. At least you provided some substance to your points.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

TwisT wrote:I totally agree with that (was just going to say the same) and I will add I think this debate, and subsequent ones, that it does give a chance for Boris to make the massive gaff that Labour seem to need him to make.

It is whether the Corbyn or the audience can pressure him enough to make it. I think he got away with it in the mayor debates as it wasn't nationwide and the Tory leader debates because there were too many of them to really get him in a sweat.

I am not saying it WILL happen, but keeping Boris on TV and out of his comfort zone gives Corbyn a chance he has to take.

The problem is that you could take that statement above and swap their names around and wouldn't be far off. I doubt that we have ever had such an appalling choice for prospective PM.

Very true and Johnson and Corbyn's leadrships are an indictment of so called moderate Politicians for the Expenses scandal...For needless Austerity and a stupid Brexit referendum brought on because of potential UKIP gains from the Tories..

Definitely .

Come the weekend Boris Johnson will no longer have the shortest tenure for a PM despite Corbyns promises.

For what it is worth....

Yougov poll.... Who won the debate with undecideds...

Corbyn....54%
Johnson.38%

Corbyn started from a much lower threshold than Johnson so it's probably not important..

Not a GE changing debate.....In part because of the format and time allocated to it..

6.7m watched it..

Soul Requiem wrote:Come the weekend Boris Johnson will no longer have the shortest tenure for a PM despite Corbyns promises.

What a victory for him

I missed the debate as I was at the Wales v Hungary match watching us qualify for Euro 2020

I've seen highlights though and Corbyn appears to have the better person. After last night I would probably just make Aaron Ramsey Prime Minister to be honest

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Come the weekend Boris Johnson will no longer have the shortest tenure for a PM despite Corbyns promises.

What a victory for him