2019 General Election

First topic message reminder :

Now it's confirmed for December 12th (pretty much), I thought we should have a shiny new thread for the fourth and final UK GE of this tumultuous decade; a decade which has also included three referendums and four (maybe five) different Prime Ministers.

News this morning that Amber Rudd won't be defending her seat. Oh well.

Opinion polls currently have the Tories in a double digit lead, but it's anticipated to be a lot tighter than that by the time we reach the actual polling day.

superflyweight wrote:Not sure it would be a big deal in the event of independence as independent Scotland couldn't insist that RUK scraps Trident.  SNP would insist on them being removed from the Clyde, but am fairly sure would agree to a reasonable time-table for RUK to do so.  

That would be a pretty big bargaining chip that they're potentially taking off the table depending on who the government is of course.

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

You have Nicola Sturgeon trying to ramp up Scottish independence, as she is all part of this together stronger and staying in the EU, yet she wants to leave Great Britain, how does that work ? SNP should be called the braveheart party, as all they are doing is dragging people along on emotions and nationalism, without taking things like borders and currency into consideration.

I put this to people who want independence, both Welsh and Scottish, do you want the Euro as your currency ?

How does that work? Well she and others of us have seen Westminster's BS first hand from failed promises of 2014. All the garbage that Scotland was a valued partner in the union and then it did not even get a say in any Brexit negotiations - WTF. Scots were told the only way to safeguard EU membership was by voting No in 2014. Many did that and are now left feeling cheated and betrayed. As I see it there are options on the currency despite what Better Together tried saying last time around in 2014. And so what if it were the EURO. Money is money and all gets spent the same way and its virtually on a parity with the pound now too and that is before Boris's Brexit nightmare happens.

The Euro aside, what other currency options would you suggest?  

In terms of the Euro, it's not just about the spending of the actual currency that you need to consider.  If an independent Scotland was to adopt the Euro (either through choice or as a condition of membership of the EU) it would not have full control over its fiscal and monetary policy.  As a result it becomes more difficult to control inflation (by increasing interest rates or by printing less money).  

In addition to that, annual budget rates need to be less than 3% of GDP and debt to GDP ratio needs to be less than 40%.  This would make things very diffcult for a new country with an existing disproportionately high rate of public expenditure.  That means a massive increase in taxes or a massive cut in public spending.        

There are options. In the immediate aftermath of independence I would foresee the pound being kept as the currency for perhaps a year or two whilst the starting up of a new currency is planned for.

Even if RUK was to agree to use of the pound during a transition period, that means that for a "year or two" we would have absolutely no say in monetary or fiscal policy and no control over inflation or interest rates.  That's effectively taxation without representation!  

It's not a problem that's necessarily insurmountable but the SNP are not publicly addressing these issues and no one is making it clear what approach would be taken, how much public finances would be impacted, how any budget deficit would be overcome and how long it would take before any negative impacts could be overcome.  It's no different to the negligence of people who campaigned for Brexit without understanding what that would mean and all the flag waving and marches through Glasgow and Edinburgh are not going to change it.

First up the Governor of the Bank of England makes the decision - not Westminster. And despite Better Together saying otherwise he said it was perfectly feasible and possible for an independent Scotland to have kept the pound as currency. Now in order for Scotland to create its own currency thereafter the interim period it needs to have things put in place that takes time. How long? Well we will have a better idea if and when the situation arises.

It is feasible and possible, but why would you necessarily want to be tied to a currency where you have zero influence over the relevant fiscal and monetary policy?  

I'm sorry, but I find it totally unacceptable to just say we will see how long things might take once we reach a decision and it's crap like that which puts off people who are more cautious about independence.  It's precisely the same kind of crap  as "we'll trade on WTO terms" nonsense being spouted by morons like Farage, Francois and Rees-Mogg.  It's negligent and arrogant that the SNP and others in the Yes movement have still not provided sufficient detail about their plans for post-independent Scotland.  

Salmond and Sturgeon repeatedly claimed that independence could be negotiated and achieved in 18 months(!!!) following the 2014 referendum.  Brexit has shown that the time period will likely be much longer.

Brexit is totally different to Scottish independence as far as negotiations and agreements go. I am staggered that you even think like that. The main and biggest sticking point in Brexit negotiations is the Irish Border issue which will be irrelevant in negotiations over Scottish independence. The Irish Border is such an issue that it has needed to be negotiated with four parties (Irish government, UK government, the DUP and the EU) all of whom want different things in that border and hindered by May's red lines. Nothing like that over border issues between Scotland and England.

And of course you need to wait and see how long things take since it is not every day Scotland gets independence. As for no plans well a document was published with plans last year and no doubt updated ones will come when IndyRef2 is announced. I mean, heck, you do not see any party launching election manifestos until an election has been announced.

I hate to burst your bubble, but during the Scottish referendum, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond were told repeatedly, "YOU WILL NOT GET THE POUND" you leave the UK and you leave everything.

Why people who want independence fail to accept this, is well, just lunacy. Also, one of the major stumbling blocks for brexit is the Irish border, why do the we think our border with England will be any different ?

It seems that some of these Scottish people who are screaming FREEDOM want it all on their terms.

People need to face facts, without England behind us, and their tax paying population, we are all fecked.

And I say this as a very proud Scotsman.

Doctor7 wrote:I hate to burst your bubble, but during the Scottish referendum, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond were told repeatedly, "YOU WILL NOT GET THE POUND" you leave the UK and you leave everything.

Why people who want independence fail to accept this, is well, just lunacy. Also, one of the major stumbling blocks for brexit is the Irish border, why do the we think our border with England will be any different ?

It seems that some of these Scottish people who are screaming FREEDOM want it all on their terms.

People need to face facts, without England behind us, and their tax paying population, we are all fecked.

And I say this as a very proud Scotsman.

You, like Scots in 2014, were conned by the Better Together spiel. That is exactly what they said about the pound. Months later though the former Governor of the Bank of England said this:-

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-bank-of-england-governor-says-indy-scotland-could-have-pound-1-4063367

If you cannot see a difference between the Irish Border (considering the long running troubles in Northern Ireland) and the one between Scotland and England then I am flabberghasted.

And no I am sorry but you are a proud Brit. You do realise don't you that Scotland has far better export levels than many successful small independent countries in this world. Can you tell me why that is? Can you tell me why Westminster is so desperate to keep hold of Scotland if it is a financial basket case?

Craig, are you aware that the Governor of the Bank of England won't be the one deciding whether Scotland can keep the pound or not? It may well be possible but if Westminster turn around and say no what do you think is actually going to happen?

I also think you need to stop with all this 'you were conned' garbage too, it reduces a fairly important and complicated subjected to nothing more than a playground argument.

Scotland has higher export levels than most small independent countries because it is part of the UK, you're again assuming that such levels won't be affected by independence when they most probably will.

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig, are you aware that the Governor of the Bank of England won't be the one deciding whether Scotland can keep the pound or not? It may well be possible but if Westminster turn around and say no what do you think is actually going to happen?

I also think you need to stop with all this 'you were conned' garbage too, it reduces a fairly important and complicated subjected to nothing more than a playground argument.

Scotland has higher export levels than most small independent countries because it is part of the UK, you're again assuming that such levels won't be affected by independence when they most probably will.

No I will continue as people were conned. How so?

Well obviously we had Better Together using EU membership as a reason to vote No. Scots were told if they wanted to remain in the EU they had to vote No. Hmm and now look what is happening - taken out of the EU despite Scotland voting to remain.

Scots were told to vote No and earn a range of new devolved powers. Hmm still waiting on them and the exact opposite has happened. Fishing and farming bills from the EU should have been passed right back to Holyrood but they were intercepted and kept by Westminster.

We were buttered up by David Cameron and David Mundell. We were told we were a valued partner in this union. Spin forward a couple of years after they had got their No vote and Mundell's rhetoric changed as he told SNP MP's in Parliament that Scotland was not a partner but a part of the UK. And we are such an equal partner that we were given no say whatsoever in the Brexit negotiations.

Before the 2014 vote we had Better Together threatening us that a Yes vote would see Scotland lose pensions. And now the Tories themselves are looking to bump retirement age up to 75 (passing the average lifespan age of Scots).

Before the 2014 vote Better Together tried saying Scots would lose the monarchy and it took the Queen to come out before the vote and said that would not happen.

We had Better Together swearing North Sea Oil was all but gone. And then after a No vote was returned Westminster moved borders in the North Sea so that oil fields previously in Scottish waters were now in English waters. Also since 2014 two new vast oilfields have been found off the coast of Scotland.

On the eve of the 2014 referendum when Yes edged ahead in polls Gordon Brown came out with a list of pledges in a bid to muddy waters and turn it into a DevoMax ref rather than independence.

But that aside oh of course nobody was conned.

Craig, are you aware that it isn't Tory policy to increase retirement age to 75, that was a recommendation by the CSJ, the actual age of retirement will be increased to 68 by 2046. Great piece of fact checking there.

You should probably use the north sea oil scenario as a warning of how negotiations will actually go rather than this fantasy where everything will stay exactly as it is, i'm struggling to see where this con is.

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig, are you aware that it isn't Tory policy to increase retirement age to 75, that was a recommendation by the CSJ, the actual age of retirement will be increased to 68 by 2046. Great piece of fact checking there.

You should probably use the north sea oil scenario as a warning of how negotiations will actually go rather than this fantasy where everything will stay exactly as it is, i'm struggling to see where this con is.

Nice to see you have ignored nearly every point made there.

And at the end of the day Westminster has the final say on pensions and what age they move to and going by this the CSJ is chaired by Iain Duncan Smith (a Tory):-

https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2019/08/19/govt-told-to-increase-state-pension-age-to-75/

Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

YouGov’s huge MRP 100,000 survey* and model suggests a Tory majority of 68:

Conservative: 359 (+42)
Labour: 211 (-51)
Lib Dem: 13 (+1)
SNP 43 (+8)

* Given a lot of credibility as it called a hung parliament last time.

labour not winning a single seat from another party 

Yes indeed, looks like Johnson is ducking an interview with Andrew Neil. He's had an unbelievably easy ride so far.

Duty281 wrote:YouGov’s huge MRP 100,000 survey* and model suggests a Tory majority of 68:

Conservative: 359 (+42)
Labour: 211 (-51)
Lib Dem: 13 (+1)
SNP 43 (+8)

* Given a lot of credibility as it called a hung parliament last time.

The end of Corbyn and a credible opposition leader taking over capable of holding the government to account can only be a good thing.

too late, the group that elected Corbyn control Labour now

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Doctor7 wrote:I hate to burst your bubble, but during the Scottish referendum, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond were told repeatedly, "YOU WILL NOT GET THE POUND" you leave the UK and you leave everything.

Why people who want independence fail to accept this, is well, just lunacy. Also, one of the major stumbling blocks for brexit is the Irish border, why do the we think our border with England will be any different ?

It seems that some of these Scottish people who are screaming FREEDOM want it all on their terms.

People need to face facts, without England behind us, and their tax paying population, we are all fecked.

And I say this as a very proud Scotsman.

You, like Scots in 2014, were conned by the Better Together spiel. That is exactly what they said about the pound. Months later though the former Governor of the Bank of England said this:-

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-bank-of-england-governor-says-indy-scotland-could-have-pound-1-4063367

If you cannot see a difference between the Irish Border (considering the long running troubles in Northern Ireland) and the one between Scotland and England then I am flabberghasted.

And no I am sorry but you are a proud Brit. You do realise don't you that Scotland has far better export levels than many successful small independent countries in this world. Can you tell me why that is? Can you tell me why Westminster is so desperate to keep hold of Scotland if it is a financial basket case?

Can't be a proud Scot if you don't support independence? That's a fairly sinister form of nationalism creeping through there. I say that as someone who is neither a proud Brit or a proud Scot (taking pride in the place where your parents chose to pro-create is a bizarre concept).

Also very disingenuous to suggest that there won't be any border issues between an independent Scotland in the EU and a post-brexit England.

Any problems are dependent on how negotiations go, there may be an easy solution on the face of things but if one party is reluctant to pursue it then it becomes altogether more difficult. If two sides have conflicting red lines you're a bit buggered.

Soul Requiem wrote:Any problems are dependent on how negotiations go, there may be an easy solution on the face of things but if one party is reluctant to pursue it then it becomes altogether more difficult. If two sides have conflicting red lines you're a bit buggered.

If only we had some experience of the issues involved with conflicting red lines?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

I'm amazed at you TRUSS. Link (evidence) please...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

Agree with the above.

As for the Johnson/Neil interview, the BBC says they haven’t been able to agree a date on which to do it (talks still ongoing). So not confirmed by a long way that Johnson is ‘ducking it’.

Duty281 wrote:Agree with the above.

As for the Johnson/Neil interview, the BBC says they haven’t been able to agree a date on which to do it (talks still ongoing). So not confirmed by a long way that Johnson is ‘ducking it’.

Not spoke in a while Duty but still think we're heading eventually to a no deal?

Who'd have thought it?!?!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585818

This is true of pretty much all politicians, of all stripes, for all time. Problem for the current bunch, however, is that people are increasingly p!ssed off with it. Good.

Who knows? Perhaps if they were actually honest, the public might accept the cost of changes after all? In other words, stop treating us all as gullible children, you winkers!

Here's a thought - make all election Manifestos legally binding documents.

I know; it wouldn't work and there's all sorts of nuance, but I can dream can't I?

It's what happens when you end up with reactionary manifestos, you have one party promising the world to try and stop a huge majority then the other party responds in kind and it then snowballs to what we have now. At least with your Attlees and Thatchers of the world you know where you stand.

Hero wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Agree with the above.

As for the Johnson/Neil interview, the BBC says they haven’t been able to agree a date on which to do it (talks still ongoing). So not confirmed by a long way that Johnson is ‘ducking it’.

Not spoke in a while Duty but still think we're heading eventually to a no deal?

Well it mostly depends on this election. If the Tories get over 350 seats, Johnson should be able to get his deal through*. A smaller majority than that and it could be difficult as some rebellious backbenchers might make life tough for him. A hung parliament - a complete calamity for the Tories - will result in the same parliamentary paralysis as before, keeping no deal as the most likely end point.

The 1% chance option - Corbyn ending up as PM in December - and it's all up in the air, quite frankly.

*But of course getting the deal through only takes the UK into a transition phase until the end of 2020. A new 'no-deal' scenario could well arise at the end of 2020, if no new trade agreement is reached in that time.

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Doctor7 wrote:I hate to burst your bubble, but during the Scottish referendum, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond were told repeatedly, "YOU WILL NOT GET THE POUND" you leave the UK and you leave everything.

Why people who want independence fail to accept this, is well, just lunacy. Also, one of the major stumbling blocks for brexit is the Irish border, why do the we think our border with England will be any different ?

It seems that some of these Scottish people who are screaming FREEDOM want it all on their terms.

People need to face facts, without England behind us, and their tax paying population, we are all fecked.

And I say this as a very proud Scotsman.

You, like Scots in 2014, were conned by the Better Together spiel. That is exactly what they said about the pound. Months later though the former Governor of the Bank of England said this:-

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-bank-of-england-governor-says-indy-scotland-could-have-pound-1-4063367

If you cannot see a difference between the Irish Border (considering the long running troubles in Northern Ireland) and the one between Scotland and England then I am flabberghasted.

And no I am sorry but you are a proud Brit. You do realise don't you that Scotland has far better export levels than many successful small independent countries in this world. Can you tell me why that is? Can you tell me why Westminster is so desperate to keep hold of Scotland if it is a financial basket case?

Can't be a proud Scot if you don't support independence?  That's a fairly sinister form of nationalism creeping through there.  I say that as someone who is neither a proud Brit or a proud Scot (taking pride in the place where your parents chose to pro-create is a bizarre concept).  

Also very disingenuous to suggest that there won't be any border issues between an independent Scotland in the EU and a post-brexit England.  

There certainly won't be the issues that there are on the Irish Border. To try to hint or claim there would be is beyond daft. Northern Ireland had years of terrorist attacks (unlike Scotland and England). It had deep-rooted issues that ran for years until the Good Friday Agreement brought peace but troubles are still simmering (again unlike Scotland or England).

Well you cannot have much of a way of faith or pride in Scotland if you reckon it cannot survive without England's help. You said that yourself - some pride in Scotland that.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Surprisingly enough, people of all different political persuasions like to be part of the audience at shows like Question Time. Some of them are members, even councillors, for various political parties. It does not make them 'plants'.

Craig

I presume you'll be perfectly happy with a hard border between EU member Scotland and non EU member England then?

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Surprisingly enough, people of all different political persuasions like to be part of the audience at shows like Question Time. Some of them are members, even councillors, for various political parties. It does not make them 'plants'.

Sorry but one person has appeared on countless Scottish Question Times. Now first you need to apply to get into the audience. Not easy but he has managed it half a dozen times. And then on top of that you have to be selected to ask a question and guess what? Yes you have guessed it he is always somehow magically selected to ask a question. Sorry I do not believe in such astronomical odds.

Could it perhaps be that there aren't that many Scottish UKIP voters who are vocal pro unionists?

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig

I presume you'll be perfectly happy with a hard border between EU member Scotland and non EU member England then?

If that is what it takes for independence then Yes. A minor hindrance such as that is not something I'd worry about if it is to end Westminster-rule in Scotland.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig

I presume you'll be perfectly happy with a hard border between EU member Scotland and non EU member England then?

If that is what it takes for independence then Yes. A minor hindrance such as that is not something I'd worry about if it is to end Westminster-rule in Scotland.

A minor hindrance?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Evidence please. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

Soul Requiem wrote:Could it perhaps be that there aren't that many Scottish UKIP voters who are vocal pro unionists?

Pretty sure his appearances are on YouTube and his angry spiel is always the same - the same bias, the same one-eyed opinion and the same questions but hey-ho the producers keep hunting him out and giving him airtime. The reason why is crystal clear.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Surprisingly enough, people of all different political persuasions like to be part of the audience at shows like Question Time. Some of them are members, even councillors, for various political parties. It does not make them 'plants'.

Sorry but one person has appeared on countless Scottish Question Times. Now first you need to apply to get into the audience. Not easy but he has managed it half a dozen times. And then on top of that you have to be selected to ask a question and guess what? Yes you have guessed it he is always somehow magically selected to ask a question. Sorry I do not believe in such astronomical odds.

That's your 'evidence'?

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Evidence please. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17434213.billy-mitchell-will-not-be-returning-to-bbc-question-time/

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3853746/bbc-under-fire-failed-billy-mitchell-scots-ukip-question-time/

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/bbc-probe-former-coatbridge-ukip-13987763

There are similar reports out there.

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig

I presume you'll be perfectly happy with a hard border between EU member Scotland and non EU member England then?

If that is what it takes for independence then Yes. A minor hindrance such as that is not something I'd worry about if it is to end Westminster-rule in Scotland.

A minor hindrance?

This is unfortunately the level of discourse that you tend to get when trying to highlight the challenges of independence.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Doctor7 wrote:I hate to burst your bubble, but during the Scottish referendum, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond were told repeatedly, "YOU WILL NOT GET THE POUND" you leave the UK and you leave everything.

Why people who want independence fail to accept this, is well, just lunacy. Also, one of the major stumbling blocks for brexit is the Irish border, why do the we think our border with England will be any different ?

It seems that some of these Scottish people who are screaming FREEDOM want it all on their terms.

People need to face facts, without England behind us, and their tax paying population, we are all fecked.

And I say this as a very proud Scotsman.

You, like Scots in 2014, were conned by the Better Together spiel. That is exactly what they said about the pound. Months later though the former Governor of the Bank of England said this:-

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-bank-of-england-governor-says-indy-scotland-could-have-pound-1-4063367

If you cannot see a difference between the Irish Border (considering the long running troubles in Northern Ireland) and the one between Scotland and England then I am flabberghasted.

And no I am sorry but you are a proud Brit. You do realise don't you that Scotland has far better export levels than many successful small independent countries in this world. Can you tell me why that is? Can you tell me why Westminster is so desperate to keep hold of Scotland if it is a financial basket case?

Can't be a proud Scot if you don't support independence?  That's a fairly sinister form of nationalism creeping through there.  I say that as someone who is neither a proud Brit or a proud Scot (taking pride in the place where your parents chose to pro-create is a bizarre concept).  

Also very disingenuous to suggest that there won't be any border issues between an independent Scotland in the EU and a post-brexit England.  

There certainly won't be the issues that there are on the Irish Border. To try to hint or claim there would be is beyond daft. Northern Ireland had years of terrorist attacks (unlike Scotland and England). It had deep-rooted issues that ran for years until the Good Friday Agreement brought peace but troubles are still simmering (again unlike Scotland or England).

Well you cannot have much of a way of faith or pride in Scotland if you reckon it cannot survive without England's help. You said that yourself - some pride in Scotland that.

I didn't say that at all and as I said above, I don't have any pride in Scotland or anywhere else for that matter. Pride in what is essentially an arbitrary line drawn on a map is a fairly ridiculous concept.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Evidence please. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17434213.billy-mitchell-will-not-be-returning-to-bbc-question-time/

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3853746/bbc-under-fire-failed-billy-mitchell-scots-ukip-question-time/

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/bbc-probe-former-coatbridge-ukip-13987763

There are similar reports out there.

Thanks; I do appreciate that, but it doesn't remotely support your assertion that he's a BBC 'plant'. So he's been on 4 times in ~6 years? Maybe that's a lot (I have no idea), but he's hardly that regular.
You just don't like what he says (which is fine) but that doesn't mean the BBC put a 'plant' in the audience.

You said you are a proud Scotsman. Okay.

Well I do not see how saying you think Scotland is fecked without England's help. Is that something you are proud about? That does not strike me as a pride packed thought process. Just an observation.

And you say without Taxes from the English population. Okay but you do realise it would then mean ALL Scottish Taxes remain in Scotland. Yes a lot less money but also a lot less people to spread that tax spending.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Evidence please. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17434213.billy-mitchell-will-not-be-returning-to-bbc-question-time/

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3853746/bbc-under-fire-failed-billy-mitchell-scots-ukip-question-time/

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/bbc-probe-former-coatbridge-ukip-13987763

There are similar reports out there.

Thanks; I do appreciate that, but it doesn't remotely support your assertion that he's a BBC 'plant'. So he's been on 4 times in ~6 years? Maybe that's a lot (I have no idea), but he's hardly that regular.
You just don't like what he says (which is fine) but that doesn't mean the BBC put a 'plant' in the audience.

Of course it does. Hence as to why it is said he won't be back. The matter was brought to the BBC's attention and this is their response. If he was not a 'plant' then they'd say their process at vetting people who appear was foolproof and they'd continue to have him back.

superflyweight wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig

I presume you'll be perfectly happy with a hard border between EU member Scotland and non EU member England then?

If that is what it takes for independence then Yes. A minor hindrance such as that is not something I'd worry about if it is to end Westminster-rule in Scotland.

A minor hindrance?

This is unfortunately the level of discourse that you tend to get when trying to highlight the challenges of independence.  

You do realise that borders have had to be negotiated by new independent countries countless times across many generations across all continents. I have yet to hear of any country who called off independence or independence did not last due to border negotiations.

CaledonianCraig wrote:You said you are a proud Scotsman. Okay.

Well I do not see how saying you think Scotland is fecked without England's help. Is that something you are proud about? That does not strike me as a pride packed thought process. Just an observation.

And you say without Taxes from the English population. Okay but you do realise it would then mean ALL Scottish Taxes remain in Scotland. Yes a lot less money but also a lot less people to spread that tax spending.

Now I've come across Fly's opinion on Independence for a number of years now and I don't think I can ever recall him saying he was a proud Scot.

It's worth remembering that post Independence revenue is going to be vastly lower than pre Independence revenue.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig

I presume you'll be perfectly happy with a hard border between EU member Scotland and non EU member England then?

If that is what it takes for independence then Yes. A minor hindrance such as that is not something I'd worry about if it is to end Westminster-rule in Scotland.

A minor hindrance?

This is unfortunately the level of discourse that you tend to get when trying to highlight the challenges of independence.  

You do realise that borders have had to be negotiated by new independent countries countless times across many generations across all continents. I have yet to hear of any country who called off independence or independence did not last due to border negotiations.

Negotiated with bloodshed for the most part resulting in forceful borders between countries.

It won't affect Independence but it will affect the economy and trade.

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig

I presume you'll be perfectly happy with a hard border between EU member Scotland and non EU member England then?

If that is what it takes for independence then Yes. A minor hindrance such as that is not something I'd worry about if it is to end Westminster-rule in Scotland.

A minor hindrance?

This is unfortunately the level of discourse that you tend to get when trying to highlight the challenges of independence.  

You do realise that borders have had to be negotiated by new independent countries countless times across many generations across all continents. I have yet to hear of any country who called off independence or independence did not last due to border negotiations.

Negotiated with bloodshed for the most part resulting in forceful borders between countries.

It won't affect Independence but it will affect the economy and trade.

So do you foresee bloodshed in this instance?

And Brexit will be doing that anyway. I'd sooner suffer it under self-governance thanks.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Evidence please. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17434213.billy-mitchell-will-not-be-returning-to-bbc-question-time/

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3853746/bbc-under-fire-failed-billy-mitchell-scots-ukip-question-time/

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/bbc-probe-former-coatbridge-ukip-13987763

There are similar reports out there.

Thanks; I do appreciate that, but it doesn't remotely support your assertion that he's a BBC 'plant'. So he's been on 4 times in ~6 years? Maybe that's a lot (I have no idea), but he's hardly that regular.
You just don't like what he says (which is fine) but that doesn't mean the BBC put a 'plant' in the audience.

Exactly.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looks like the BBC told Corbyn that Andrew Neil was doing an interview with Claudius and the resultant car crash 30 minutes happened under false pretences...Johnson isn't doing one..

For sure Corbyn didn't help himself...But....

How disappointing to know the State Broadcaster is using my money to edit videos and lie for the Governing Party..

I'll never moan about Fox News again.

Well it is only to be expected of Andrew Neil - a man with clear Conservative connections.

The BBC does have form. The amount of times a person called Billy McGhee (a UKIP supporter and pro-unionist) gets onto Scottish Question Time and gets to ask a question every time came to light recently and they were outed for it.

I'd suggest the BBC are, on balance, probably spot on with their position - they're pissing all sides off. People accuse them of leftist bias, Tory bias etc etc. Trouble is, most people don't like it when they read/hear something they don't agree with. 'Twas ever thus I guess.

How, exactly, is it spot on to have a 'plant' in a Question Time audience?

Evidence please. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17434213.billy-mitchell-will-not-be-returning-to-bbc-question-time/

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3853746/bbc-under-fire-failed-billy-mitchell-scots-ukip-question-time/

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/bbc-probe-former-coatbridge-ukip-13987763

There are similar reports out there.

Thanks; I do appreciate that, but it doesn't remotely support your assertion that he's a BBC 'plant'. So he's been on 4 times in ~6 years? Maybe that's a lot (I have no idea), but he's hardly that regular.
You just don't like what he says (which is fine) but that doesn't mean the BBC put a 'plant' in the audience.

Of course it does. Hence as to why it is said he won't be back. The matter was brought to the BBC's attention and this is their response. If he was not a 'plant' then they'd say their process at vetting people who appear was foolproof and they'd continue to have him back.

You do know what, you know, evidence is, don't you?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Craig

I presume you'll be perfectly happy with a hard border between EU member Scotland and non EU member England then?

If that is what it takes for independence then Yes. A minor hindrance such as that is not something I'd worry about if it is to end Westminster-rule in Scotland.

A minor hindrance?

This is unfortunately the level of discourse that you tend to get when trying to highlight the challenges of independence.  

You do realise that borders have had to be negotiated by new independent countries countless times across many generations across all continents. I have yet to hear of any country who called off independence or independence did not last due to border negotiations.

Yeah. War was often involved.