2019 General Election

by Duty281 Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:40 pm

First topic message reminder :

Now it's confirmed for December 12th (pretty much), I thought we should have a shiny new thread for the fourth and final UK GE of this tumultuous decade; a decade which has also included three referendums and four (maybe five) different Prime Ministers.

News this morning that Amber Rudd won't be defending her seat. Oh well.

Opinion polls currently have the Tories in a double digit lead, but it's anticipated to be a lot tighter than that by the time we reach the actual polling day.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:30 pm

Afro wrote:
super_realist wrote:How is that patronising? Don't pretend to me that you care more for the rest of the world than you do for this closest to you.
That would be patronising and a complete lie.

Calling me flippant when you have know nothing about me is patronising.

And I don't pretend I care more about the world than those closest. I just believe that I am not just English/British, but part of the whole world and that I have responsibilities beyond where I live.

Why determine your priorities based on lines on a map or being an island. That is worrying most about what effects you directly or is closest to home. That is the epitome of looking after yourself first and worrying about everyone else after that, which I personally don't prescribe to

I pointed out a flaw in your argument. If everything is going fine in your life then you'll put up with an average education system and health system. However when you need it you'll wish that the money put into the environment had been put into health.
I don't live my life built on borders, however when the UK contribution to climate change is so minimal, then I think that the amount of time we spend talking about climate change should instead be the burden of the countries most responsible.

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:37 pm

How is it a flaw? You don’t agree with it, but doesn’t mean it’s a flaw

I’d like a great health service and a great education service. I just don’t put that as a higher priority than global climate change.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:39 pm

So you would be happy to continue to have a sub standard health system just so a species of fly in Africa doesnt die out? Right

Britain does not have a significant effect on the climate, fine to continue to reduce our emissions, but not at the expense of our health care.

You've still not given a decent example of a human caused climate change event which would be catastrophic

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:43 pm

super_realist wrote:So you would be happy to continue to have a sub standard health system just so a species of fly in Africa doesnt die out? Right

Britain does not have a significant effect on the climate, fine to continue to reduce our emissions, but not at the expense of our health care.

You've still not given a decent example of a human caused image change event which would be catastrophic

To quote you. Don’t you get it. No I wouldn’t be happy, but I don’t prioritise one over the other.

And on the last question, I don’t even get the relevance. I have not mentioned a catastrophic event, and not does there need to be in order for us to do something to improve the situation.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:45 pm

Afro wrote:
super_realist wrote:So you would be happy to continue to have a sub standard health system just so a species of fly in Africa doesnt die out? Right

Britain does not have a significant effect on the climate, fine to continue to reduce our emissions, but not at the expense of our health care.

You've still not given a decent example of a human caused image change event which would be catastrophic

To quote you. Don’t you get it. No I wouldn’t be happy, but I don’t prioritise one over the other.

And on the last question, I don’t even get the relevance. I have not mentioned a catastrophic event, and not does there need to be in order for us to do something to improve the situation.

You've bought into the myth that we are facing an extinction crisis, but can't explain how that might happen. You laughably mentioned an ice age.

What are these "emergencies" we face?

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:46 pm

I never mentioned an extinction event, nor the ice age.

Wrong person

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:48 pm

Afro wrote:I never mentioned an extinction event, nor the ice age.

Wrong person

OK, I apologise. So whats so urgent about the climate that we should prioritise it the same as health and education?

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:50 pm

Because it is causing issues and fatalities in other areas of the world.

We are already privileged to have a free health service and free education whilst this is happening, and we are moaning it is underfunded.

It would be nice to have a perfect health service and a perfect education system, but it really does feel like a first world problem

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:51 pm

Afro wrote:Because it is causing issues and fatalities in other areas of the world.

We are already privileged to have a free health service and free education whilst this is happening, and we are moaning it is underfunded.

It would be nice to have a perfect health service and a perfect education system, but it really does feel like a first world problem

Give specific examples and the scale at which it is happening.
Neither Education or Health are free.

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:53 pm

I’m on my phone but I will post in a bit. I read a scientific report which gave the results of WHO research that global warming is responsible for 150,000 deaths a year and 5 million illnesses each year.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:55 pm

Afro wrote:I’m on my phone but I will post in a bit. I read a scientific report which gave the results of WHO research that global warming is responsible for 150,000 deaths a year and 5 million illnesses each year.

Tragic as that is, the UK only contributes around 1% of global emissions, worth reducing, but not worth spending so much of our time on when our own country is falling apart.

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:55 pm

super_realist wrote:
Afro wrote:Because it is causing issues and fatalities in other areas of the world.

We are already privileged to have a free health service and free education whilst this is happening, and we are moaning it is underfunded.

It would be nice to have a perfect health service and a perfect education system, but it really does feel like a first world problem

Give specific examples and the scale at which it is happening.
Neither Education or Health are free.

They are to the extent that it doesn’t matter your social status or how much money you have, you get the same service. If you pay no tax, you can still send your children to school or get treated at a hospital.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:56 pm

Afro wrote:I’m on my phone but I will post in a bit. I read a scientific report which gave the results of WHO research that global warming is responsible for 150,000 deaths a year and 5 million illnesses each year.

Not exactly the extinction events that people would have you believe though is it?
I would also question your language. I bet the WHO report doesn't use the term "responsible" but rather "plays a factor" because they have no real way of determining it

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:00 pm

super_realist wrote:
Afro wrote:I’m on my phone but I will post in a bit. I read a scientific report which gave the results of WHO research that global warming is responsible for 150,000 deaths a year and 5 million illnesses each year.

Not exactly the extinction events that people would have you believe though is it?

No. It isn’t that extreme.

But neither is the health service or education system about to collapse.

You should deal with all three as much as you can. You believe climate change is a lower priority, for me it isn’t.

Let’s agree to disagree Ok!

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:02 pm

It’s a direct quote

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/global-warming-and-health/

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:07 pm

https://www.who.int/globalchange/publications/quantitative-risk-assessment/en/

by Duty281 Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:08 pm

The 150,000 figure is a sixteen year-old estimate, which could be (according to the man who was most responsible for said figure) much lower or quite a bit higher.

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:11 pm

Fair enough. The argument stands though. Global warming will affect people’ ability to fight disease and malnutrition, and also potentially affect food production.

It might not manifest as such, but we Shouldn’t ignore it

by Soul Requiem Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:14 pm

Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
super_realist wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The worst thing about his column stuff is that it's not even intended to be nasty, it's intended to be funny. It's funny to him because it's not about him. Even if he was brought to apologise for any of it, it would be with a smirk on his face. This is what privilege can do. You can come to believe there are no negative consequences to what you do. Hasn't his life thus far taught him that?

If you're rich and connected, you can't go wrong.
Probably hit the nail on the head. Do I want him as PM? Nope. Do I want Corbyn? Nope. Neither are in any way fit. May as well ruin my ballot...

Obviously things like the NHS...Climate change and Homelessness aren't important then..

What a lamentable post !!

In the UK, climate change isn't really that significant in that the effects will not cause significant damage or disruption and we have the knowledge and engineering capabilities to deal with the effects of any change in climate. The important thing to remember is that climate change is not all doom and gloom. For most, in Europe certainly the effects are pretty minimal. Far too much is made of it as a pressing issue as a threat, and in European terms there's certainly no crisis or emergency.

Did anyone else run the maths on Corbyn's 2bn trees? Effing hilarious.

This post probably best sums up the "I'm alright, Jack" attitude that is so prevalent in UK politics these days. Utterly depressing.

Simple reality, China and India are the only two countries that can make a real difference.

We can influence them with our own actions though

Of course we can, the past 40 years have taught us that China in particular is really open to Western influence.

If they found that no one was buying Chinese products or services, they would soon change their approach

People can choose to stop buying Chinese products now if they wished but that would cost more and ultimately you'll find people care more about their bank balance than the environment, sad indictment of society but that's the way it is.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:14 pm

Afro wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Afro wrote:I’m on my phone but I will post in a bit. I read a scientific report which gave the results of WHO research that global warming is responsible for 150,000 deaths a year and 5 million illnesses each year.

Not exactly the extinction events that people would have you believe though is it?

No. It isn’t that extreme.

But neither is the health service or education system about to collapse.

You should deal with all three as much as you can. You believe climate change is a lower priority, for me it isn’t.

Let’s agree to disagree

Fair enough.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:16 pm

Afro wrote:Fair enough. The argument stands though. Global warming will affect people’ ability to fight disease and malnutrition, and also potentially affect food production.

It might not manifest as such, but we Shouldn’t ignore it

That's very much the point, but I would add that we should notexaggerate and make up claims which lead to hysteria and brain washing indoctrination.

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:18 pm

Agreed

by TightHEAD Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:55 pm

I will not be voting for any of those parties but I will be spoiling my ballot paper this time, More people should do the same, none of them are electable.

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:02 pm

What does spoiling your ballot paper actually achieve?

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:07 pm

Afro wrote:What does spoiling your ballot paper actually achieve?

A brief moment of extreme satisfaction. More seriously though, we should have a 'none of the above' option and if that reaches, say, >30%, the election should be re-run with different candidates.

by TightHEAD Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:11 pm

Afro wrote:What does spoiling your ballot paper actually achieve?

Absolutely nothing, which is the same as voting for any of the main parties as all their promises are based on lies.

by TightHEAD Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:13 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Afro wrote:What does spoiling your ballot paper actually achieve?
A brief moment of extreme satisfaction. More seriously though, we should have a 'none of the above' option and if that reaches, say, >30%, the election should be re-run with different candidates.

A very sensible idea. Currently we have the same useless failures standing for re-election.

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:15 pm

Fair enough. Might as well get some satisfaction however fleetingly!

I like that idea Navy

by lostinwales Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:23 pm

super_realist wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
super_realist wrote:It's not about that. Britain is already doing more than virtually all other developed countries in the world, and politicians and crackpot environmental groups spreading hysteria with ridiculous claims is not helping the situation.
We've never had more green power than now, our emissions are going down, energy consumption per capita is going down.

Could Britain do better? Of course. Is it facing an emergency? No.

Britain and these groups are often targeting the wrong sources, well not wrong, but sources of CO2 which are far more insignificant than others. For example. The Airlines have a terribly bad reputation, however they are only responsible for 2% of global emissions, buildings are responsible for 40% of emissions. Where are the protestors complaining about that?

It's the lack of consistency in the argument and the lack of education that bothers me.

Tell that to the people that just lost their homes in Yorks.

There's no evidence that was caused by climate change. Floods are not new. The majority of flooded properties are caused by properties being built in areas which are susceptible to flooding.
Building on a floodplain is not a climate change issue. It's moronic planning and virtually every flooded property in the UK is because it has been built in low lying areas. Rivers have not evolved to cope with much more than 1 in 5 events. Those are events which happen regardless of climate change. Building on the floodplains surrounding them and then being surprised when they flood is absolutely retarded.

1) Seeing a new development called '<something> meadows' always triggers alarm bells
2) Building on a floodplain has a knock on effect downstream, its not just the local houses that are at threat
3) Developers love dense housing. Home owners love hard standing for their cars and because it means not having to bother with garden maintenance. Both these things mean less soil to soak up rainfall.

Overall we have a fantastic climate, which includes the rain. I think there is a lot more consideration of flood risks (for instance the Environmental Agency have been busy laser scanning terrain over the UK to help identify regions at risk of flooding) but there are a lot of historical issues.

by lostinwales Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:29 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The worst thing about his column stuff is that it's not even intended to be nasty, it's intended to be funny. It's funny to him because it's not about him. Even if he was brought to apologise for any of it, it would be with a smirk on his face. This is what privilege can do. You can come to believe there are no negative consequences to what you do. Hasn't his life thus far taught him that?

If you're rich and connected, you can't go wrong.
Probably hit the nail on the head. Do I want him as PM? Nope. Do I want Corbyn? Nope. Neither are in any way fit. May as well ruin my ballot...

Obviously things like the NHS...Climate change and Homelessness aren't important then..

What a lamentable post !!

Magic grandad is not the only person who can solve these issues. He's also not trusted to do so anyway, rightly or wrongly. I don't think he's up to the job.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:29 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I will not be voting for any of those parties but I will be spoiling my ballot paper this time, More people should do the same, none of them are electable.

No one gives a crap if you spoil your ballot paper...

But People do give a crap about..

Climate change...

Nurses forced to use Foodbanks..

Lack of legal aid for Joe Soap to hold power to account..

Declining Standards of living..

Record Child Poverty..

Patients lying on pavements for hours for an Ambulance..

Record waits for Cancer treatments..

We have 16/17 year olds chomping at the bit to vote for a decent future and more respectable Society..

We have Navy and Tighthead bragging about spoiling their ballots... Very sad.

by lostinwales Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:30 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He isn't a sociopath....Sociopath's can't empathize with other People..

Seems he has plenty of empathy for rich White bigots...

'Racist bigot' is a more apt description....

No. Rich white bigots are useful to him. Doesn't mean he actually cares for them beyond that.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:32 pm

Trussman. If someone wants to spoil their ballot it's no more your business than someone voting for someone you don't agree with.
If the parties can't provide a party worth voting for then it isn't the voters fault.
Blame the political parties if you want, but a spoilt ballot is none of your business and is simply a symptom of a poor political system.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:33 pm

Afro wrote:Fair enough. Might as well get some satisfaction however fleetingly!

I like that idea Navy

Wish I could really lay claim to it. Part 'Brewster's Millions' (always liked the idea when I saw it there) and part Anthony Barnett (https://unbound.com/books/brexit/). People really, really should read his polemic on Brexit/Trump and our electoral system etc.

by MrInvisible Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:34 pm

Whilst I've got my fingers crossed the electorate aren't gullible enough to fall for the Trumpian posturing of Johnson and the crude simplicity of 'Get Brexit Done', if there is a Tory majority what's going to happen?

Does it mean the hard-Brexit right who've taken over most (but still not all) of party continue to call the shots and we end up leaving on Johnson's deal or even a no deal?

Or, does it mean he has more flexibility to pursue a 'softer' Brexit, more closely aligned to single market and customs union? The former looks more likely but who knows? In theory we have a much more Brexity intake of Tory MPs on the way but there are still some Remainers (albeit they've signed some form of Brexit pledge to be a candidate).

What's going to happen with Scotland? Once Brexit becomes a reality the SNP will obviously continue to push for another independence referendum. Johnson's said no so far, but this won't put the issue to bed, and this will start to dominate UK politics even more.

Labour leadership - can't see a return to 'Blairism' - most of the New Labour acolytes have left, but could see a battle between the right of party (Benn), soft left (Rayner or Thornberry) and Corbynist wing (Long-Bailey). Assuming it is going to be a bad election night for Labour, the post-mortem must consider both Remain and Leave minded voters who've left Labour.

This may all look presumptous, and I really hope I'm wrong, but somehow I find it less distressful to look at what comes next rather than seeing the likes of Michael Gove and Pritty Patel gloating on election night.

I normally stay up for election night but won't be doing this time round (though I said that in 2017 and the 'shock exit poll' reeled me in).

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:35 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I will not be voting for any of those parties but I will be spoiling my ballot paper this time, More people should do the same, none of them are electable.

No one gives a crap if you spoil your ballot paper...

But People do give a crap about..

Climate change...

Nurses forced to use Foodbanks..

Lack of legal aid for Joe Soap to hold power to account..

Declining Standards of living..

Record Child Poverty..

Patients lying on pavements for hours for an Ambulance..

Record waits for Cancer treatments..

We have 16/17 year olds chomping at the bit to vote for a decent future and more respectable Society..

We have Navy and Tighthead bragging about spoiling their ballots... Very sad.

by TightHEAD Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:37 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I will not be voting for any of those parties but I will be spoiling my ballot paper this time, More people should do the same, none of them are electable.

No one gives a crap if you spoil your ballot paper...

But People do give a crap about..

Climate change...

Nurses forced to use Foodbanks..

Lack of legal aid for Joe Soap to hold power to account..

Declining Standards of living..

Record Child Poverty..

Patients lying on pavements for hours for an Ambulance..

Record waits for Cancer treatments..

We have 16/17 year olds chomping at the bit to vote for a decent future and more respectable Society..

We have Navy and Tighthead bragging about spoiling their ballots... Very sad.

Go and vote for someone who is telling porkies then, That is really sad.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:38 pm

I blame Corbyns Labour for Johnson's success. He's the least popular leader in decades and he's had so many chances to score an open goal, but all he does is score own goals.

This is the worst succession of Tory Leaders in history and Corbyn hasn't made the slightest impact. A decent opposition would have cleared up and all indication are he's going to lose again. He has to be removed.
I'm not even a Labour voter, but they're a complete joke with him in charge

by TightHEAD Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:39 pm

TRUSSMAN66 I guess you still believe in Father Christmas?

Britains political system is broken and rotten to the core. 2019 General Election - Page 14 1054138444

2019 General Election - Page 14 1054138444

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:41 pm

You don't have to vote Navy..it's your prerogative and good luck to you..

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:42 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You don't have to vote Navy..it's your prerogative and good luck to you..

So why care if he spoils his ballot?

by **Afro** Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:44 pm

Spoiling the ballot paper isn't going to fix a broken political system.

If you don't like the leaders, then join the party that you identify with, and vote in a leader who represents you. You can't do it on your own, but if you can't gather the support to push it through, then that suggests others don't agree with you.

That isn't the system being broken, its that your beliefs aren't shared widely enough to make a difference. And that is democracy.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:44 pm

super_realist wrote:Trussman. If someone wants to spoil their ballot it's no more your business than someone voting for someone you don't agree with.
If the parties can't provide a party worth voting for then it isn't the voters fault.
Blame the political parties if you want, but a spoilt ballot is none of your business and is simply a symptom of a poor political system.

Not for the first time, he over-interpreted my remark. I won't be spoiling my ballot; I just said it would be satisfying to do so, albeit briefly so and pretty pointless. I'll be voting Green or LibDem in all likelihood, which is a wasted vote in my constituency. Think the Tories have a ~4k majority over Labour (~25k vs. 21k; might be wrong on numbers, but definitely Tory), whereas LD polled ~1300 in 2017 and Greens ~650. So, in other words, may as well spoil my ballot as it means FA under our system. Needs to change, but won't.

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:47 pm

Would think there are a lot of tactical votes rather than what people would actually want to vote for.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:49 pm

super_realist wrote:Would think there are a lot of tactical votes rather than what people would actually want to vote for.

Which is another indicator of a seriously flawed electoral system...

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:52 pm

Better than the one party hell hole of Scotland with the SNP

by tigertattie Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:55 pm

by Soul Requiem Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:56 pm

super_realist wrote:Better than the one party hell hole of Scotland with the SNP

Awaits the arrival of Craig... 2019 General Election - Page 14 1347041234

by super_realist Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:02 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:Better than the one party hell hole of Scotland with the SNP

Awaits the arrival of Craig...

Is he the usual anti English Nationalist bigot with no real reasons for wanting independence?

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:10 pm

super_realist wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
super_realist wrote:Better than the one party hell hole of Scotland with the SNP

Awaits the arrival of Craig...

Is he the usual anti English Nationalist bigot with no real reasons for wanting independence?

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