2019 General Election

by Duty281 Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:40 am

First topic message reminder :

Now it's confirmed for December 12th (pretty much), I thought we should have a shiny new thread for the fourth and final UK GE of this tumultuous decade; a decade which has also included three referendums and four (maybe five) different Prime Ministers.

News this morning that Amber Rudd won't be defending her seat. Oh well.

Opinion polls currently have the Tories in a double digit lead, but it's anticipated to be a lot tighter than that by the time we reach the actual polling day.

by Duty281 Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:07 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Survation the closest pollster at 2017..

Con 42
Lab 33
Lib 11
Brex 3
Green 4

Calculated into seats...

Con 337
Lab 231
Lib 12

Majority 24..

The Lib Dems struggling is helping the Tories....

We've gone from 19 consecutive polls having the Tories at a double digit lead, to 6 of the last 10 being a single digit lead.

Johnson will think polling day can't come around soon enough.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:10 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Sturgeon on the BBC preaching her hatred of the English and Trident once again!

When will she go away?

Hatred of the English?

Yes that is correct. Her face is full of hate whenever she mentions us, Nationalist politics are small minded and evil.

Considering she is not standing for election to Westminster why are we subjected to her nasty views?

You seem to have a lot more hate than her, chum.

please explain?

I'm not the one trying to break up the union, maybe we (Britain) should all have a vote on it. But she would never ask for that as Scotland would be given their independence and then people would realise that the SNP are useless and she wouldn't have the power she craves. She appeals to small minded Scots with a chip on their shoulders.

Let's see if I've got this right: the SNP want independence from the United Kingdom, but their leader secretly doesn't?

Yep, I see it that way too.

She is making a living off the underlying hatred for the English, which if we can all be honest, is there, or the passion of being independent, yet as never offered any solutions to the problems that would arise with independence. She is totally blagging her way through life by whipping up a frenzy within the Scottish population.

She is being asked about currency and borders, but she is constantly avoiding the answers. She is blaming Westminster for everything. She is baying to the mob.

If Scotland got their independence, then I would bet my house that she would not put herself forward to be prime minister of Scotland. She has made her money, she would see it as job done, now let some one else sort it all out.

By not getting independence, she gets to keep her job as leader of the SNP. Which to be honest is a spiteful parochial party, along the same lines as Plaid Cymru.

I'm not going to speak for the SNP, but I object to this, Dowlais.

You would though, as they are your party, I have no problem with you objecting though, that's your right.

I will say this though, the other day, about 5000 people were on the march through my own town, protesting for independence, they brought the whole place to a halt. They were all there with the flags and banners, and Plaid Cymru paraphernalia, some of the things they were shouting was very cringe worthy and offensive.

by **Pr4wn** Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:10 pm

Hate is such a strong word.

What I'm pointing out is that, for someone who accuses others of being mean-spirited, you sure do use some strong adjectives. Accusing others of being hate-filled while posting the above is just ridiculous. You're posts are filled with so much more vitriol than anything Nicola Sturgeon says.

It's all a bit weird, tbh.

by super_realist Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:12 pm

If you see it like that, fine. Do you think that any political party should to be treated with rosy and flowery language or do you think that a party which is demonstrably as awful and backward as the SNP should be treated robustly?

I'd say that anyone saying that Sturgeon is level headed is much more weird than using robust language to berate them

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:17 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Sturgeon on the BBC preaching her hatred of the English and Trident once again!

When will she go away?

Hatred of the English?

Yes that is correct. Her face is full of hate whenever she mentions us, Nationalist politics are small minded and evil.

Considering she is not standing for election to Westminster why are we subjected to her nasty views?

You seem to have a lot more hate than her, chum.

please explain?

I'm not the one trying to break up the union, maybe we (Britain) should all have a vote on it. But she would never ask for that as Scotland would be given their independence and then people would realise that the SNP are useless and she wouldn't have the power she craves. She appeals to small minded Scots with a chip on their shoulders.

Let's see if I've got this right: the SNP want independence from the United Kingdom, but their leader secretly doesn't?

Yep, I see it that way too.

She is making a living off the underlying hatred for the English, which if we can all be honest, is there, or the passion of being independent, yet as never offered any solutions to the problems that would arise with independence. She is totally blagging her way through life by whipping up a frenzy within the Scottish population.

She is being asked about currency and borders, but she is constantly avoiding the answers. She is blaming Westminster for everything. She is baying to the mob.

If Scotland got their independence, then I would bet my house that she would not put herself forward to be prime minister of Scotland. She has made her money, she would see it as job done, now let some one else sort it all out.

By not getting independence, she gets to keep her job as leader of the SNP. Which to be honest is a spiteful parochial party, along the same lines as Plaid Cymru.

I'm not going to speak for the SNP, but I object to this, Dowlais.

You would though, as they are your party, I have no problem with you objecting though, that's your right.

I will say this though, the other day, about 5000 people were on the march through my own town, protesting for independence, they brought the whole place to a halt. They were all there with the flags and banners, and Plaid Cymru paraphernalia, some of the things they were shouting was very cringe worthy and offensive.

I can't comment on that, I wasn't there. Just to add though, the independence marches aren't a Plaid Cymru thing. They're arranged by AUOB (All Under One Banner).

Eddie Butler spoke at the Merthyr rally. Would you describe him as spiteful and parochial?

by super_realist Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:25 pm

If they can't give good reasons for independence then yes.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:27 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Hate is such a strong word.

What I'm pointing out is that, for someone who accuses others of being mean-spirited, you sure do use some strong adjectives. Accusing others of being hate-filled while posting the above is just ridiculous. You're posts are filled with so much more vitriol than anything Nicola Sturgeon says.

It's all a bit weird, tbh.

If you are implying I hate anyone or anything, you could not be further from the truth, I do not hate anyone or anything, I did use hate, there is hate for the English, in my country, and even more so in Scotland, it's very sad. England do more for both our countries than any other in the world.

Stereophonics even made that song, as long as we beat the English. Yes I know it was tongue in cheek, and England were number one in the world at the time, but to me it was embarrassing. There are people who look to capitalise on this unfortunately, and it is exactly what Nicola Sturgeon is doing, whether you chose to believe it or not. It's mob rule. People like Nicola Sturgeon are pandering to the mob, worryingly enough though, that with the new tools that is the internet, and social media, these people who are in the mob are growing in numbers. They want something to rebel against, and up in Scotland, the SNP give these people the the exact means of doing it. It's how brexit has happened, and it's a sad indictment of the times in which we live.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:30 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Sturgeon on the BBC preaching her hatred of the English and Trident once again!

When will she go away?

Hatred of the English?

Yes that is correct. Her face is full of hate whenever she mentions us, Nationalist politics are small minded and evil.

Considering she is not standing for election to Westminster why are we subjected to her nasty views?

You seem to have a lot more hate than her, chum.

please explain?

I'm not the one trying to break up the union, maybe we (Britain) should all have a vote on it. But she would never ask for that as Scotland would be given their independence and then people would realise that the SNP are useless and she wouldn't have the power she craves. She appeals to small minded Scots with a chip on their shoulders.

Let's see if I've got this right: the SNP want independence from the United Kingdom, but their leader secretly doesn't?

Yep, I see it that way too.

She is making a living off the underlying hatred for the English, which if we can all be honest, is there, or the passion of being independent, yet as never offered any solutions to the problems that would arise with independence. She is totally blagging her way through life by whipping up a frenzy within the Scottish population.

She is being asked about currency and borders, but she is constantly avoiding the answers. She is blaming Westminster for everything. She is baying to the mob.

If Scotland got their independence, then I would bet my house that she would not put herself forward to be prime minister of Scotland. She has made her money, she would see it as job done, now let some one else sort it all out.

By not getting independence, she gets to keep her job as leader of the SNP. Which to be honest is a spiteful parochial party, along the same lines as Plaid Cymru.

I'm not going to speak for the SNP, but I object to this, Dowlais.

You would though, as they are your party, I have no problem with you objecting though, that's your right.

I will say this though, the other day, about 5000 people were on the march through my own town, protesting for independence, they brought the whole place to a halt. They were all there with the flags and banners, and Plaid Cymru paraphernalia, some of the things they were shouting was very cringe worthy and offensive.

I can't comment on that, I wasn't there. Just to add though, the independence marches aren't a Plaid Cymru thing. They're arranged by AUOB (All Under One Banner).

Eddie Butler spoke at the Merthyr rally. Would you describe him as spiteful and parochial?

No he isn't. He is a very nice man, I have met him more than once in business circles. But unfortunately, there are people who jump on bandwagons. AUOB and Plaid go hand in hand on most things, they were campaigning when this march was on, I saw them with my own eyes, with their straw hats and daffodils.

If Wales went independent, we would be a third world country within 10 years.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:43 pm

Dowlais, as part of the UK we're the poorest part of Western Europe. Some benefit, eh?

What is it about Wales and the Welsh that makes you think we'd be a basket case as an independent country, when in Europe alone there are several countries smaller than Wales either in area or population or both, that are poorer in natural resources, all doing perfectly well?

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:48 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, as part of the UK we're the poorest part of Western Europe. Some benefit, eh?

What is it about Wales and the Welsh that makes you think we'd be a basket case as an independent country, when in Europe alone there are several countries smaller than Wales either in area or population or both, that are poorer in natural resources, all doing perfectly well?

Because they are being carried by the EU, they get more than they contribute, a union, that we have voted to leave.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 3:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, as part of the UK we're the poorest part of Western Europe. Some benefit, eh?

What is it about Wales and the Welsh that makes you think we'd be a basket case as an independent country, when in Europe alone there are several countries smaller than Wales either in area or population or both, that are poorer in natural resources, all doing perfectly well?

Because they are being carried by the EU, they get more than they contribute, a union, that we have voted to leave.

Wales, as part of the UK, has also been a member of the EU for decades. Why are we still the poorest part of Western Europe? Why weren't we being carried? It can't be the EU's fault if these other countries are doing fine.

I'll ask again, what makes Wales inherently incapable of surviving as an independent state?

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:03 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, as part of the UK we're the poorest part of Western Europe. Some benefit, eh?

What is it about Wales and the Welsh that makes you think we'd be a basket case as an independent country, when in Europe alone there are several countries smaller than Wales either in area or population or both, that are poorer in natural resources, all doing perfectly well?

Because they are being carried by the EU, they get more than they contribute, a union, that we have voted to leave.

Wales, as part of the UK, has also been a member of the EU for decades. Why are we still the poorest part of the EU? Why weren't we being carried? It can't be the EU's fault if these other countries are doing fine.

I'll ask again, what makes Wales inherently incapable of surviving as an independent state?

Because we do not have enough things to export, the best we could do is make a fist of the tourist trade, because we have a beautiful country with some of the most beautiful rural and coastal countrysides in the world. Also, just to educate you a little, the top 10 most deprived places in the UK are not in Wales.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:04 pm

Here you go, I found this in seconds:-

http://livingwagecommission.org.uk/poorest-uk-places/

by TwisT Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:05 pm

Reading this conversation and related question that I have always wanted to ask......

If Scotland (or Wales) did get their independence and it went really badly for them (so incapable of surviving), would they be able to come back into a union or would that be that?

I am just thinking about the parallels of UK leaving EU, but then maybe coming back in years to come. Does the same principle apply?

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:07 pm

TwisT wrote:Reading this conversation and related question that I have always wanted to ask......

If Scotland (or Wales) did get their independence and it went really badly for them (so incapable of surviving), would they be able to come back into a union or would that be that?

I am just thinking about the parallels of UK leaving EU, but then maybe coming back in years to come. Does the same principle apply?

Scotland came back to the UK, albeit, it was in the 18th century. But they did come back, after independence.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:09 pm

Dear Lord Dowlais, there was no UK until 1707!

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:10 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dear Lord Dowlais, there was no UK until 1707!

Yes, that would be the 18th century. Whistle

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:19 pm

If there was no UK, how could Scotland have left it and rejoined?

by TwisT Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:20 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
TwisT wrote:Reading this conversation and related question that I have always wanted to ask......

If Scotland (or Wales) did get their independence and it went really badly for them (so incapable of surviving), would they be able to come back into a union or would that be that?

I am just thinking about the parallels of UK leaving EU, but then maybe coming back in years to come. Does the same principle apply?

Scotland came back to the UK, albeit, it was in the 18th century. But they did come back, after independence.

Ok, but in modern times? Would you expect any (for want of a better description) "English" political party welcoming either back if they struggle?

All hypothetical of course.....not saying they would struggle. I am just thinking that if indyref2 has 52-48 for "leave" would the aftermath be a serious case of dejavu as well! Especially if in the months afterwards (while the logistics are sorted) Scotland starts to show signs of it being the wrong move.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:22 pm

TwisT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
TwisT wrote:Reading this conversation and related question that I have always wanted to ask......

If Scotland (or Wales) did get their independence and it went really badly for them (so incapable of surviving), would they be able to come back into a union or would that be that?

I am just thinking about the parallels of UK leaving EU, but then maybe coming back in years to come. Does the same principle apply?

Scotland came back to the UK, albeit, it was in the 18th century. But they did come back, after independence.

Ok, but in modern times? Would you expect any (for want of a better description) "English" political party welcoming either back if they struggle?

All hypothetical of course.....not saying they would struggle. I am just thinking that if indyref2 has 52-48 for "leave" would the aftermath be a serious case of dejavu as well! Especially if in the months afterwards (while the logistics are sorted) Scotland starts to show signs of it being the wrong move.

If you look at the number of former colonies of the British Empire that have requested to become colonies again, you might get an idea of how likely that would be.

EDIT: If this sounds snarky, I apologise.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:22 pm

TwisT wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
TwisT wrote:Reading this conversation and related question that I have always wanted to ask......

If Scotland (or Wales) did get their independence and it went really badly for them (so incapable of surviving), would they be able to come back into a union or would that be that?

I am just thinking about the parallels of UK leaving EU, but then maybe coming back in years to come. Does the same principle apply?

Scotland came back to the UK, albeit, it was in the 18th century. But they did come back, after independence.

Ok, but in modern times? Would you expect any (for want of a better description) "English" political party welcoming either back if they struggle?

All hypothetical of course.....not saying they would struggle. I am just thinking that if indyref2 has 52-48 for "leave" would the aftermath be a serious case of dejavu as well! Especially if in the months afterwards (while the logistics are sorted) Scotland starts to show signs of it being the wrong move.

I do not know. That is my answer, but I would like to think, that they would be welcomed back with open arms. Although, there would be a lot of people very cheesed off, and if it was a vote by the people, Scotland would be left sweating.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:24 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If there was no UK, how could Scotland have left it and rejoined?

Sorry, they came cap in hand to join the UK. The country was on it's knees.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If there was no UK, how could Scotland have left it and rejoined?

Sorry, they came cap in hand to join the UK. The country was on it's knees.

THERE WAS NO UK.

by LordDowlais Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:30 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If there was no UK, how could Scotland have left it and rejoined?

Sorry, they came cap in hand to join the UK. The country was on it's knees.

THERE WAS NO UK.

King James the 6th, I think was king of all Ireland, Scotland and England at the time, please bare with me, I am trying to remember my history, the Scottish parliament then had no choice other than to join with the English parliament as Scotland as a country was on it's knees, they very reluctantly asked England for help, thus forming the UK.

All very sketchy, but my school education was over 25 years ago. But am I in the right ball park ?

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:31 pm

There we go: 'thus forming the UK'. They didn't leave it and then rejoin!

by Duty281 Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:35 pm

TwisT wrote:Reading this conversation and related question that I have always wanted to ask......

If Scotland (or Wales) did get their independence and it went really badly for them (so incapable of surviving), would they be able to come back into a union or would that be that?

I am just thinking about the parallels of UK leaving EU, but then maybe coming back in years to come. Does the same principle apply?

In theory it would be possible, it would just require another act of union, but the practical reality could be a very difficult hurdle to surmount.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:39 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:My indignation is the politicising and quite clearly suggesting it’s stuff he’d fix cos others are weak. Think the police would shiver hearing that number again, whilst he blames the hung parliament for things like this not having been changed in law. And he blames the hung parliament on people blocking Brexit, which is a disgusting lie and also a disgusting tactic to make this part of the Brexit story. I haven’t read further than that, it made me sad.

They don’t need to reference, it’s just a forum, just a conversation. If you can’t find it, you can ask politely if someone can link it for you as you’re interested. If they’re rude then more fool them. It’s worked well with me and ol’ Duty there

Thought this was what I did. No matter. Will try to keep it polite.
It is a conversation, but don't expect there not to be comment if simple statements are put out there that people disagree with/think are biased and there's no attempt to back them up. Would have though the natural onus was on those making the point to try to convince. To be clear, I know I'm no saint thumbsup

.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:40 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, as part of the UK we're the poorest part of Western Europe. Some benefit, eh?

What is it about Wales and the Welsh that makes you think we'd be a basket case as an independent country, when in Europe alone there are several countries smaller than Wales either in area or population or both, that are poorer in natural resources, all doing perfectly well?

Because they are being carried by the EU, they get more than they contribute, a union, that we have voted to leave.

Wales, as part of the UK, has also been a member of the EU for decades. Why are we still the poorest part of the EU? Why weren't we being carried? It can't be the EU's fault if these other countries are doing fine.

I'll ask again, what makes Wales inherently incapable of surviving as an independent state?

Because we do not have enough things to export, the best we could do is make a fist of the tourist trade, because we have a beautiful country with some of the most beautiful rural and coastal countrysides in the world. Also, just to educate you a little, the top 10 most deprived places in the UK are not in Wales.

We produce twice the electricity we use, that's a hell of an export we don't get anything for. And you'll know as well as I do that we don't lack for water in Wales, which we also export yet don't benefit from financially. Actually that's not quite true: we don't control it, so we don't get to export it.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:43 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I’m surprised. I’ll have a gander for you. Arguably it’s about as incumbent on them as it is you, but it really doesn’t matter either way.

Ta - must be my Google search terms.

It's not as incumbent on me at all. If someone (TRUSS, Prawn etc) want to make random statements with a clear message (and bias), it's on them to cite their evidence. Yeah, I can go look, but it's not me making the point.

Great post Navy...A1...You are a peachy guy...

No problem; any time. I can read your real meaning fine, but I don't take it personally as I know you'd miss it if I didn't push your buttons at least some of the time.

For clarity, I think you post a lot of good stuff in general and, ironically, often well evidenced. It's just that recently you seem to have consumed some sort of angry, rant-inducing medicine. If I didn't know better, I'd think we were distantly related...

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:44 pm

superflyweight wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why do you keep editing my posts....Crap isn't offensive...

Let Pr4wn edit this thread...

Where's the evidence that Navy's editing the thread? Link please?

Where's the evidence that I'm not Navy and editing this comment. Link please?

Where's the evidence that Navy is not simply constipated and his sitting on his toilet shouting "LINK PLEASE?"

Don't feed the trolls

.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:45 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I’m surprised. I’ll have a gander for you. Arguably it’s about as incumbent on them as it is you, but it really doesn’t matter either way.

Ta - must be my Google search terms.

It's not as incumbent on me at all. If someone (TRUSS, Prawn etc) want to make random statements with a clear message (and bias), it's on them to cite their evidence. Yeah, I can go look, but it's not me making the point.

The statement clearly wasn't random, was it? Honestly, every post you make on here is full to the brim with bile and contempt for other posters. I understand if I'm called a hypocrite for that but at least I at least try to address the points of others. If you don't happen to agree with something I've posted, do a little research and present a counter-argument like an adult instead of expecting others to do it for you. This is a comment and opinion site, not a flaming medical journal.

And of course I'm bloody biased. It's an opinion and I'm more than entitled to be.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:46 pm

Pr4wn wrote:He never can. [Citation needed]

2019 General Election - Page 17 3559488474

by Marky Mon 02 Dec 2019, 5:53 pm

Interesting article on the BBC, what was meant to be Labour v Conservatives just makes Lib Dem look far more feasible an option.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50628644

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Tue 03 Dec 2019, 12:03 am

Truss - Navy didn’t edit your comment. I did.

by super_realist Tue 03 Dec 2019, 7:58 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, as part of the UK we're the poorest part of Western Europe. Some benefit, eh?

What is it about Wales and the Welsh that makes you think we'd be a basket case as an independent country, when in Europe alone there are several countries smaller than Wales either in area or population or both, that are poorer in natural resources, all doing perfectly well?

Because they are being carried by the EU, they get more than they contribute, a union, that we have voted to leave.

Wales, as part of the UK, has also been a member of the EU for decades. Why are we still the poorest part of the EU? Why weren't we being carried? It can't be the EU's fault if these other countries are doing fine.

I'll ask again, what makes Wales inherently incapable of surviving as an independent state?

Because we do not have enough things to export, the best we could do is make a fist of the tourist trade, because we have a beautiful country with some of the most beautiful rural and coastal countrysides in the world. Also, just to educate you a little, the top 10 most deprived places in the UK are not in Wales.

We produce twice the electricity we use, that's a hell of an export we don't get anything for. And you'll know as well as I do that we don't lack for water in Wales, which we also export yet don't benefit from financially. Actually that's not quite true: we don't control it, so we don't get to export it.

You can't float a country on the excess that isn't used by 3 million people. First of all, the companies operating the windfarms are NOT Welsh so the money isn't retained in Wales, secondly, VAT on electricity for domestic use in the UK is only 5%, so all you are really doing is charging corporation tax on the profits of the companies, which at present, due to the cost of the infrastructure, maintenance, off shore licences etc is not that great. Constructing windfarms is fiendishly expensive, it is only when that initial cost is paid off that a field is feasible and cheaper than existing oil and gas sources.

There are no state owned wind companies in Wales, so all you have is private companies who are generating this power and benefitting from the profits. If a company feels they are being unfairly taxed, then they'll simply reduce the amount of electricity they produce by reducing the number of turbines operating. Using wind as an example of how Wales could survive on its own is as stupid as using oil as a basis for Scotland being independent. Oil in Scotland on current receipts is worth about £200 per person and oil is the highest taxed industry in the entire country ranging from 20% to 80% based on various factor relating to field/oil type, how much do you think that Welsh wind is worth to the exchequer? I'll give you a clue, it's LESS.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 03 Dec 2019, 10:36 am

I wasn't saying Wales can live on wind and water. I was using electricity and water as examples of things that Wales has / produces an excess of that we could export, in reply to a poster saying we don't have enough things to export.

by LordDowlais Tue 03 Dec 2019, 10:48 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wasn't saying Wales can live on wind and water. I was using electricity and water as examples of things that Wales had an excess of that we could export, in reply to a poster saying we don't have enough things to export.

What else do we have ? Welsh lamb ? Lava bread ? Welsh rarebit ? Welsh cakes ?

But I see Snowdonia has just been voted the most beautiful national park in Europe. We should start using this anyway.

I need to be educated on this, can you please tell me what these billion pound commodities we have that can sustain us ?

by McLaren Tue 03 Dec 2019, 10:49 am

Oil man hates wind turbines, not exactly breaking news.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wasn't saying Wales can live on wind and water. I was using electricity and water as examples of things that Wales had an excess of that we could export, in reply to a poster saying we don't have enough things to export.

What else do we have ? Welsh lamb ? Lava bread ? Welsh rarebit ? Welsh cakes ?

But I see Snowdonia has just been voted the most beautiful national park in Europe. We should start using this anyway.

I need to be educated on this, can you please tell me what these billion pound commodities we have that can sustain us ?

https://gov.wales/welsh-exports-july-2018-june-2019

by super_realist Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:01 am

McLaren wrote:Oil man hates wind turbines, not exactly breaking news.

Where did I say that Mac? Poor comprehension as ever. I said it wasn't a basis for running an independent country. Just as oil isn't for a country like Scotland.

I'm not against wind at all, but if you think its enough to run a country on, you're a buffoon.

by super_realist Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:04 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wasn't saying Wales can live on wind and water. I was using electricity and water as examples of things that Wales had an excess of that we could export, in reply to a poster saying we don't have enough things to export.

What else do we have ? Welsh lamb ? Lava bread ? Welsh rarebit ? Welsh cakes ?

But I see Snowdonia has just been voted the most beautiful national park in Europe. We should start using this anyway.

I need to be educated on this, can you please tell me what these billion pound commodities we have that can sustain us ?

https://gov.wales/welsh-exports-july-2018-june-2019

Thanks, your exports equate to 5900 per person. Wow, you're like Qatar aren't you?

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:08 am

That's what we export now, not what we could export.

Just a reminder that I don't work for Plaid Cymru. I'm at work now, and don't have time to trawl the internet every time someone asks me a question.

by LordDowlais Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:09 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wasn't saying Wales can live on wind and water. I was using electricity and water as examples of things that Wales had an excess of that we could export, in reply to a poster saying we don't have enough things to export.

What else do we have ? Welsh lamb ? Lava bread ? Welsh rarebit ? Welsh cakes ?

But I see Snowdonia has just been voted the most beautiful national park in Europe. We should start using this anyway.

I need to be educated on this, can you please tell me what these billion pound commodities we have that can sustain us ?

https://gov.wales/welsh-exports-july-2018-june-2019

And that will stay the same if we were independent ? Seriously, we are getting all this because we are part of the UK. Also, before you say it again, Wales voted to leave the EU, so we will not have friends there either.

by LordDowlais Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:10 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's what we export now, not what we could export.

Just a reminder that I don't work for Plaid Cymru. I'm at work now, and don't have time to trawl the internet every time someone asks me a question.

It could have taken you seconds to find out that Wales is not the most deprived country in the UK.

by super_realist Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:12 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:That's what we export now, not what we could export.

Just a reminder that I don't work for Plaid Cymru. I'm at work now, and don't have time to trawl the internet every time someone asks me a question.

How can you export more? Much of your current exports are due to the investment from the rest of the UK and beyond.
How are you suddenly going to get more exports? Offer lower corporation tax and further tax breaks?

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wasn't saying Wales can live on wind and water. I was using electricity and water as examples of things that Wales had an excess of that we could export, in reply to a poster saying we don't have enough things to export.

What else do we have ? Welsh lamb ? Lava bread ? Welsh rarebit ? Welsh cakes ?

But I see Snowdonia has just been voted the most beautiful national park in Europe. We should start using this anyway.

I need to be educated on this, can you please tell me what these billion pound commodities we have that can sustain us ?

https://gov.wales/welsh-exports-july-2018-june-2019

And that will stay the same if we were independent ? Seriously, we are getting all this because we are part of the UK. Also, before you say it again, Wales voted to leave the EU, so we will not have friends there either.

We'll never agree on that, Dowlais. We should probably leave it there. You're a unionist, I'm not. It's okay!

by super_realist Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:14 am

There's only so many leeks that people want

by super_realist Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:15 am

Tap in.

by LordDowlais Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:19 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We'll never agree on that, Dowlais. We should probably leave it there. You're a unionist, I'm not. It's okay!

Yes fine. I am a unionist. You are not, it wont change what I think of you as a person, variety is the spice of life as the saying goes.

But what I do not get, is that you want to break up the UK, yet you do not want to leave the EU. How does that work ?

by **Afro** Tue 03 Dec 2019, 11:24 am

How much is Tourism worth to Wales? That to me is one its biggest strengths.

They could appeal to all those who make the arduous trip with miles of traffic jams, down to Cornwall, not realising there is somewhere similar, only 10 times more beautiful, in the south and west of wales.

Also don't forget the natural gas pipeline starts in West Wales and goes straight through the country. They could charge for the supply

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