2019 General Election

First topic message reminder :

Now it's confirmed for December 12th (pretty much), I thought we should have a shiny new thread for the fourth and final UK GE of this tumultuous decade; a decade which has also included three referendums and four (maybe five) different Prime Ministers.

News this morning that Amber Rudd won't be defending her seat. Oh well.

Opinion polls currently have the Tories in a double digit lead, but it's anticipated to be a lot tighter than that by the time we reach the actual polling day.

Labour struggling with fake Lib Dem bar charts apparently.....

In Tory/Lab marginals where the Lib Dems can't win it seems the Lib Dems are still printing figures from the Euros where they did well saying 'Labour can't win her' despite being 20,000 votes behind Labour at GE17..

Said it before if the Lib Dems are really worried about a Brexit "armageddon" you would have thought they would be spending less time helping Tories in these places get elected through the back door..

See that a new Russian Labour smear is brewing.....From the Party that are hiding a Russian dossier till after the Election..

Oh for a UK press that weren't corrupt and that includes the BBC.....

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:We'll never agree on that, Dowlais. We should probably leave it there. You're a unionist, I'm not. It's okay!

Yes fine. I am a unionist. You are not, it wont change what I think of you as a person, variety is the spice of life as the saying goes.

But what I do not get, is that you want to break up the UK, yet you do not want to leave the EU. How does that work ?

Wales would have so much more of a voice in the EU than it has, or can ever have, in the UK. We can never hope to shape the future of the UK. Look at the number of seats we have at Westminster. If the whole of England voted for one party, if would be impossible for the rest of the UK to mitigate that.

Each member state of the EU has far influence on the EU than Wales has on the UK.

P.S. I didn't vote down your post!

Afro wrote:How much is Tourism worth to Wales? That to me is one its biggest strengths.

Potentially it could be a deal breaker, the potential for Wales to be a heaven for tourism is massive, we have national parks that are the envy of the world, we have beautiful pristine coast lines with beaches that are up there with the nicest in the world.

Snowdonia national park has just been announced as the most beautiful in Europe, and that includes beating parks from Norway, Spain, Greece.

We should be tapping into this anyway. It could be a massive industry for this part of the world.

People make claims like that all the time. Why would it have a bigger voice in the EU? How big is the voice of Cyprus in Europe?

As for Wales having national parks that are the envy of the world, what a load of tosh. Most people couldn't point to Wales on a map, far less be aware of national parks. The notion that people have a league table of national parks in their head is frankly ridiculous.

Anyone can get a place to be named "the most......" anything if you run the poll the correct way. Wasn't that long ago that people voted Scotland the most beautiful country, but if anyone thought that was actually true, you'd think they were mad.

EU member states have power of veto on a number of things, do they not? The notion of Wales ever having power of veto over anything in the UK is laughable.  

I don't have dreams of Wales being the greatest nation on earth. I know what we are and what we're not. I just refuse to believe that Malta, or Iceland, or Cyprus seeing as it's been mentioned, can survive in the big bad world and that Wales could not.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:EU member states have power of veto on a number of things, do they not? The thought of Wales having power of veto over anything in the UK is laughable.  

I don't have dreams of Wales being the greatest nation on earth. I know what we are and what we're not. I just refuse to believe that Malta, or Iceland, or Cyprus seeing as it's been mentioned, can survive in the big bad world and that Wales can't.

All countries survive, its a case of would they do well surely?
Iceland and Malta by the way have massive obvious advantages over places like Wales

Vetos are being phased out in the EU and are being replaced by qualified majority voting.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Wales would have so much more of a voice in the EU than it has, or can ever have, in the UK. We can never hope to shape the future of the UK. Look at the number of seats we have at Westminster. If the whole of England voted for one party, if would be impossible for the rest of the UK to mitigate that.

The seats in Westminster argument is a bit of a moot point, things are so devolved now Westminster is having less and less of an effect with what goes on in each of our countries.

I have always been a staunch Labour man, the party was founded in my home town, Merthyr is a devout Labour area, A Scottish man Keir Hardie was elected as a PM for my home town in 1900 where he formed the Labour party.

Saying that makes me so proud, yet here we are 2019 with an incompetent idiot in charge of the Labour party. The whole UK is broken, we have an oaf in charge. I cannot vote for Boris, his party stands for everything I am against, I cannot vote for Labour, because Jeremy Corbyn is a joke.

But breaking up the union is not the answer, not by a long shot. We can only make brexit work together, if we start fighting amongst ourselves, we will fail.

Duty281 wrote:Vetos are being phased out in the EU and are being replaced by qualified majority voting.

I saw that. Either way, Wales would be a member state in its own right, not an appendage of another member state.

For the record, I don't see Welsh independence happening in my lifetime. I'm realistic about the prospects. However, support for independence is in the 20s now, which is quite a jump. Your Brexit is a factor in that, Dowlais.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I saw that. Either way, Wales would be a member state in its own right, not an appendage of another member state.

Are you sure about this ? The majority of Wales voted to leave.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Your Brexit is a factor in that, Dowlais.

It's not my brexit, I voted to remain.

'Would', Dowlais. It's hypothetical.

And good man!

I wish the tail would stop wagging the dog.

TightHEAD wrote:I wish the tail would stop wagging the dog.

As if the tail could ever hope to wag the dog. That's kind of the point.

GE is taking a similar trajectory as last time.....Labour struggling in the North and Midlands and picking up in London....

Yougov....London poll..

Labour..........47 +8
Conservative.30 +1
Lib Dem.......15  -4

Problem is a lot of the marginals are in the North and Midlands...

Labour leavers are a big problem for Corbyn.

Anyone else find it amusing that the students who joined the Labour party to vote in Corbyn a few years back are now paying the price, Corbyn is un-electable and the Labour party are powerless to get rid of him Lol.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I saw that. Either way, Wales would be a member state in its own right, not an appendage of another member state.

For the record, I don't see Welsh independence happening in my lifetime. I'm realistic about the prospects. However, support for independence is in the 20s now, which is quite a jump. Your Brexit is a factor in that, Dowlais.

Noting that Wales was last a truly independent state in 1282?

LondonTiger wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I saw that. Either way, Wales would be a member state in its own right, not an appendage of another member state.

For the record, I don't see Welsh independence happening in my lifetime. I'm realistic about the prospects. However, support for independence is in the 20s now, which is quite a jump. Your Brexit is a factor in that, Dowlais.

Noting that Wales was last a truly independent state in 1282?

We're a patient lot.

super_realist wrote:Wasn't that long ago that people voted Scotland the most beautiful country, but if anyone thought that was actually true, you'd think they were mad.

It isn't the most ridiculous thing a public poll has ever voted for.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I saw that. Either way, Wales would be a member state in its own right, not an appendage of another member state.

For the record, I don't see Welsh independence happening in my lifetime. I'm realistic about the prospects. However, support for independence is in the 20s now, which is quite a jump. Your Brexit is a factor in that, Dowlais.

Noting that Wales was last a truly independent state in 1282?

We're a patient lot.

Good man, but I don't know if you'll have to wait too much longer.

Said it before and I'll say it again - 'we' (England) should grant independence to Wales, Scotland and N.I. as a fait accompli i.e. you're going independent, like it or not. This was started by devolution and will be finished (in all likelihood) by Brexit.
How anyone thought giving some form of 'freedom' via devolution wasn't going to lead to people asking "Well, if we can have this, why can't we have more and be independent??" is beyond me.
Despite the geopolitical etc issues, I think the UK needs to be broken up (personally, I think it's inevitable now), the constituent parts grow up as independent Nations (with their own representative bodies), or maybe in N.I.'s case as part of a re-united Ireland, and then re-engage with the EU etc as grown up countries.

I say this as a pro-Union person, but I think the rot's set in too deep now. Better to disengage while there's at least a little civility left.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I saw that. Either way, Wales would be a member state in its own right, not an appendage of another member state.

For the record, I don't see Welsh independence happening in my lifetime. I'm realistic about the prospects. However, support for independence is in the 20s now, which is quite a jump. Your Brexit is a factor in that, Dowlais.

Noting that Wales was last a truly independent state in 1282?

We're a patient lot.

Good man, but I don't know if you'll have to wait too much longer.

Said it before and I'll say it again - 'we' (England) should grant independence to Wales, Scotland and N.I. as a fait accompli i.e. you're going independent, like it or not. This was started by devolution and will be finished (in all likelihood) by Brexit.
How anyone thought giving some form of 'freedom' via devolution wasn't going to lead to people asking "Well, if we can have this, why can't we have more and be independent??" is beyond me.
Despite the geopolitical etc issues, I think the UK needs to be broken up (personally, I think it's inevitable now), the constituent parts grow up as independent Nations (with their own representative bodies), or maybe in N.I.'s case as part of a re-united Ireland, and then re-engage with the EU etc as grown up countries.

I say this as a pro-Union person, but I think the rot's set in too deep now. Better to disengage while there's at least a little civility left.

With respect, the bit in bold gives the game away: that the UK is England with bits tacked onto it. It's fundamentally unequal. If we were sensible, we'd admit that and decide what to do about it.

There'd be hope for the UK if it was some kind of genuine federation, but it's not. In the words of our glorious leader, “I’m not convinced there is a case for an England-only parliament. We have an England-only parliament. It’s in Westminster. It’s been there for a long time. I’m not disposed to create another parliament.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17739039.johnson-we-have-an-england-only-parliament-its-westminster/

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I saw that. Either way, Wales would be a member state in its own right, not an appendage of another member state.

For the record, I don't see Welsh independence happening in my lifetime. I'm realistic about the prospects. However, support for independence is in the 20s now, which is quite a jump. Your Brexit is a factor in that, Dowlais.

Noting that Wales was last a truly independent state in 1282?

We're a patient lot.

Good man, but I don't know if you'll have to wait too much longer.

Said it before and I'll say it again - 'we' (England) should grant independence to Wales, Scotland and N.I. as a fait accompli i.e. you're going independent, like it or not. This was started by devolution and will be finished (in all likelihood) by Brexit.
How anyone thought giving some form of 'freedom' via devolution wasn't going to lead to people asking "Well, if we can have this, why can't we have more and be independent??" is beyond me.
Despite the geopolitical etc issues, I think the UK needs to be broken up (personally, I think it's inevitable now), the constituent parts grow up as independent Nations (with their own representative bodies), or maybe in N.I.'s case as part of a re-united Ireland, and then re-engage with the EU etc as grown up countries.

I say this as a pro-Union person, but I think the rot's set in too deep now. Better to disengage while there's at least a little civility left.

With respect, the bit in bold gives the game away: that the UK is England with bits tacked onto it. It's fundamentally unequal. If we were sensible, we'd admit that and decide what to do about it.

There'd be hope for the UK if it was some kind of genuine federation, but it's not. In the words of our glorious leader, “I’m not convinced there is a case for an England-only parliament. We have an England-only parliament. It’s in Westminster. It’s been there for a long time. I’m not disposed to create another parliament.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17739039.johnson-we-have-an-england-only-parliament-its-westminster/

Yeah, the England bit is an issue, but it's the other parts of the UK being wantaways isn't it? Then again, I know it's not practical, but maybe ask England to give an opinion on any indy vote in Scotland, Wales etc...

Forgot to mention proper federation in earlier post. Would make a lot of sense as well, even if I can imagine the childish nonsense to agree the rules. Mind you, ditto re. independence of UK constituent parts and their future relationship cf. existing UK.

I'm not sure what can be done to rectify things, unfortunately. The Tory Eurosceptics sure as hell didn't fight for Brexit just so they could give more power to the smaller nations of the UK. And even if we end up remaining, I think the damage is done.

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else find it amusing that the students who joined the Labour party to vote in Corbyn a few years back are now paying the price, Corbyn is un-electable and the Labour party are powerless to get rid of him Lol.

Maybe they see Homeless People dying...Pensioners losing carers...14 million people struggling with Poverty and want to fight for a guy who is trying to stop it..

Give me a naive and idealistic student any day if you are the alternative..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else find it amusing that the students who joined the Labour party to vote in Corbyn a few years back are now paying the price, Corbyn is un-electable and the Labour party are powerless to get rid of him Lol.

Maybe they see Homeless People dying...Pensioners losing carers...14 million people struggling with Poverty and want to fight for a guy who is trying to stop it..

Give me a naive and idealistic student any day if you are the alternative..

There are not 14 million people in poverty in the UK Trussman. That's an absolutely ridiculous claim to make. What has happened is that the term "poverty" has now been redefined by those who make that claim.

I heard some Labour plank on radio yesterday making the same claim, and then it was exposed that she was using a measure that a household income has less than £21k. That might well put some in their definition of poverty, but it's not even close to being actual poverty.

Those in this "14 million" are not in the same level of misery as what we genuinely associate with the term poverty i.e. Glasgow Gorbals. It's like conflating slavery with zero hours contracts.

By that measure more than 1 in 5 people would be in "poverty" and that's simply not true in regards to the way most people define poverty

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I saw that. Either way, Wales would be a member state in its own right, not an appendage of another member state.

For the record, I don't see Welsh independence happening in my lifetime. I'm realistic about the prospects. However, support for independence is in the 20s now, which is quite a jump. Your Brexit is a factor in that, Dowlais.

Noting that Wales was last a truly independent state in 1282?

We're a patient lot.

Good man, but I don't know if you'll have to wait too much longer.

Said it before and I'll say it again - 'we' (England) should grant independence to Wales, Scotland and N.I. as a fait accompli i.e. you're going independent, like it or not. This was started by devolution and will be finished (in all likelihood) by Brexit.
How anyone thought giving some form of 'freedom' via devolution wasn't going to lead to people asking "Well, if we can have this, why can't we have more and be independent??" is beyond me.
Despite the geopolitical etc issues, I think the UK needs to be broken up (personally, I think it's inevitable now), the constituent parts grow up as independent Nations (with their own representative bodies), or maybe in N.I.'s case as part of a re-united Ireland, and then re-engage with the EU etc as grown up countries.

I say this as a pro-Union person, but I think the rot's set in too deep now. Better to disengage while there's at least a little civility left.

With respect, the bit in bold gives the game away: that the UK is England with bits tacked onto it. It's fundamentally unequal. If we were sensible, we'd admit that and decide what to do about it.

There'd be hope for the UK if it was some kind of genuine federation, but it's not. In the words of our glorious leader, “I’m not convinced there is a case for an England-only parliament. We have an England-only parliament. It’s in Westminster. It’s been there for a long time. I’m not disposed to create another parliament.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17739039.johnson-we-have-an-england-only-parliament-its-westminster/

You lose all credibility, if you ever had any by quoting "The National". It is probably the most biased, parochial, worthless rag in the entire UK, and only has a circulation around 9k. They seize on any quote and make headlines out of it for sensationalist purposes and to rabble rouse their bigoted anti English supporters, regardless of how the context of it might play out later. It's a despicable paper which isn't even fit to wipe your arse if you ran out of toilet paper.

London has a devolved assembly and a lot of devolved powers. Perhaps everything inside the M25 should be spun off to a new country.

Heck we could go the whole hog and restore the Saxon kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria and Wessex while we are at it.

Oddsmakers have picked

215 Seats for the over/under markets for Labour...

18 Seats for the over/under markets for Lib Dem..

Suppose the SNP pick up their 40 as expected..

18 N.Ireland...4 PC....1 Green....

Predicted 58 majority at the moment..

super_realist wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else find it amusing that the students who joined the Labour party to vote in Corbyn a few years back are now paying the price, Corbyn is un-electable and the Labour party are powerless to get rid of him Lol.

Maybe they see Homeless People dying...Pensioners losing carers...14 million people struggling with Poverty and want to fight for a guy who is trying to stop it..

Give me a naive and idealistic student any day if you are the alternative..

There are not 14 million people in poverty  in the UK Trussman. That's an absolutely ridiculous claim to make. What has happened is that the term "poverty" has now been redefined by those who make that claim.

I heard some Labour plank on radio yesterday making the same claim, and then it was exposed that she was using a measure that a household income has less than £21k.  That might well put some in their definition of poverty, but it's not even close to being actual poverty.

Those in this "14 million" are not in the same level of misery as what we genuinely associate with the term poverty i.e. Glasgow Gorbals. It's like conflating slavery with zero hours contracts.

By that measure more than 1 in 5 people would be in "poverty" and that's simply not true in regards to the way most people define poverty

£21k in Bradford would go much further than £21k in East Devon. You're not looking at the bigger picture.

For example. The average wage in Devon is £25k. The average house price in Devon is £290k. Most 1st time buyers can't afford to buy so need to rent and the parasitical wnkers down here push rental prices to more than double the amount than a mortgage would be at the current interest rates. So people who are on average wages are paying way more than half of their monthly take home on rent alone. Then you have astronomical council tax rates, transport, food etc. etc. etc on top. If you have a family, yet more expense.

Cost of living needs to be factored in regardless of income.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

super_realist wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else find it amusing that the students who joined the Labour party to vote in Corbyn a few years back are now paying the price, Corbyn is un-electable and the Labour party are powerless to get rid of him Lol.

Maybe they see Homeless People dying...Pensioners losing carers...14 million people struggling with Poverty and want to fight for a guy who is trying to stop it..

Give me a naive and idealistic student any day if you are the alternative..

There are not 14 million people in poverty  in the UK Trussman. That's an absolutely ridiculous claim to make. What has happened is that the term "poverty" has now been redefined by those who make that claim.

I heard some Labour plank on radio yesterday making the same claim, and then it was exposed that she was using a measure that a household income has less than £21k.  That might well put some in their definition of poverty, but it's not even close to being actual poverty.

Those in this "14 million" are not in the same level of misery as what we genuinely associate with the term poverty i.e. Glasgow Gorbals. It's like conflating slavery with zero hours contracts.

By that measure more than 1 in 5 people would be in "poverty" and that's simply not true in regards to the way most people define poverty

£21k in Bradford would go much further than £21k in East Devon. You're not looking at the bigger picture.

For example. The average wage in Devon is £25k. The average house price in Devon is £290k. Most 1st time buyers can't afford to buy so need to rent and the parasitical wnkers down here push rental prices to more than double the amount than a mortgage would be at the current interest rates. So people who are on average wages are paying way more than half of their monthly take home on rent alone. Then you have astronomical council tax rates, transport, food etc. etc. etc on top. If you have a family, yet more expense.

Cost of living needs to be factored in regardless of income.

Exactly, so the planks who say that each household under 21k is in poverty is a fallacy.
You are also failing to take into account tax credits

The point is that the definition of poverty has been radically redefined from what people generally accept to be poverty. Not being able to afford to buy a house in the region you live is not poverty for example.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else find it amusing that the students who joined the Labour party to vote in Corbyn a few years back are now paying the price, Corbyn is un-electable and the Labour party are powerless to get rid of him Lol.

Maybe they see Homeless People dying...Pensioners losing carers...14 million people struggling with Poverty and want to fight for a guy who is trying to stop it..

Give me a naive and idealistic student any day if you are the alternative..

Homeless people have always died its not a new problem but its one everyone pretends to care about at this time of year, especially Politicians scraping around for votes.

Pensioners losing carers again this is an age old problem. Where are the families, in their 3/4/5 bed homes watching netflix, Prime and Sky TV.

14 million people struggling with poverty, there has always been poor people, people with jobs and a mortgages struggle but that is the way of things.
Unfortunately there is a large number of people who claim poverty but still have time whilst on their way to the food bank with their Staff-bull terrier at their side to stop off for a quick tattoo and a few pints! They are not poor, they are lazy.

TightHEAD wrote:Unfortunately there is a large number of people who claim poverty but still have time whilst on their way to the food bank with their Staff-bull terrier at their side to stop off for a quick tattoo and a few pints! They are not poor, they are lazy. thumbsup

For once, well said. You will find most of those people with a satellite dish on the side of their house as well.

Okey Dokey..

One more Johnson v Corbyn head to head debate on Friday...

Suggest Corbyn has to impress..

These polls that have Labour 10 points down are based on weighted turnout especially 18-34s..

The pollsters think 2017 was a one off and motivation is down with this group...Plus December isn't nice warm June.

Suspect they may be right...But to what extent ??

Ditch Corbyn and bring back Blair!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Okey Dokey..

One more Johnson v Corbyn head to head debate on Friday...

Suggest Corbyn has to impress..

These polls that have Labour 10 points down are based on weighted turnout especially 18-34s..

The pollsters think 2017 was a one off and motivation is down with this group...Plus December isn't nice warm June.

Suspect they may be right...But to what extent ??

I don't think people care about leaders debates in the UK, and given how inept the politicians of every party are they simply don't say anything which anyone believes or which can change anyone's mind. A complete waste of time.

People have already made their mind up. Corbyn is incrediy unpopular and nothing he can say at this stage is going to change thing. Blame his ineptitude for there being yet another Tory government

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Labour struggling with fake Lib Dem bar charts apparently.....

In Tory/Lab marginals where the Lib Dems can't win it seems the Lib Dems are still printing figures from the Euros where they did well saying 'Labour can't win her' despite being 20,000 votes behind Labour at GE17...

If you follow this kind of thing, it's something they are all doing

super_realist wrote:People have already made their mind up. Corbyn is incrediy unpopular and nothing he can say at this stage is going to change thing. Blame his ineptitude for there being yet another Tory government

This. 100%.

Corbyn is the worst leader of any party since John Major. He is an embarrassment to Labour, and all the devout Labour supporters over the years.

Never have I been in a position where the party I chose to support, for the values I agree in, and for the way they would run the country, that I no longer recognise them anymore, that I find I cannot vote for them.

Under Corbyn, Labour no longer stand for the values that Kier Hardie stood for when the party was formed at the start of the 20th century.

It is not the Labour party anymore.

@LordDowlais, out of interest, as someone who professes to be a lifelong Labour supporter, which parts of the Labour Party manifesto do you disagree with and feel are at odds with Labour values?

Moving onto a different angle on here, I'd be interested to find out who's in a safe seat, who's in a marginal seat and who feels their vote will count this election.

For the record I am in a v safe constituency - I've voted already by post - voted enthusiastically for my preferred candidate, but it is not going to swing this election 1 bit. My parents and brother are both in tight Labour/Tory marginals and their votes will count a lot more than mine.

I’m in a seat that was once solid Tory for about 50 years, then comfortably Labour for nearly a decade, then a comfortable Lib Dem outpost until it was taken back by Labour in 2017.

Now it’s a Lab/Lib marginal, with the latter expected to take it on polling day.

MrInvisible wrote:@LordDowlais, out of interest, as someone who professes to be a lifelong Labour supporter, which parts of the Labour Party manifesto do you disagree with and feel are at odds with Labour values?

Hi MI, for a start I am very embarrassed with the anti semitism element that has reared it's head, they have moved away from the working man ethos, I cannot fathom what they intend to do with our armed forces, there is so much, just so much...... I have this here, please take a quick look :-

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf

MrInvisible wrote:For the record I am in a v safe constituency - I've voted already by post - voted enthusiastically for my preferred candidate, but it is not going to swing this election 1 bit. My parents and brother are both in tight Labour/Tory marginals and their votes will count a lot more than mine.

Yes, my town is Labour, always will be, you could literally pin a red rosette to a donkey's @rse and my town would vote for it. We are probably the safest Labour seat in the whole country, and I am one of them. Sadly though Jeremy Corbyn is not fit to lead my party, and is nowhere near fit to run the whole country.

Oh what to do.....

0.06% of Labour members have had Antisemitism complaints...It is more of a problem in the Tory Party..

But as the MSM is 90% Tory we can forgive LordDowlais for his ignorance on the subject..

Yes the Boris buddy Rabbi coming out the day of the Postals was a complete coincidence.

@Lord Dowlais: So other than being a bit sketchy on the armed forces there's no other examples from the Labour party manifesto you can provide which are at odds with the values of a traditional working class Labour voter?

Do you think Johnson's Brexit deal is going to improve workers' rights?

On the safe/marginal constituencies, will be interesting to see if there's anyone in any Labour/Tory marginals as those are where the election is going to be won and lost (and to a degree, those Scottish Tory seats where SNP are challenging).

MrInvisible wrote:@Lord Dowlais: So other than being a bit sketchy on the armed forces there's no other examples from the Labour party manifesto you can provide which are at odds with the values of a traditional working class Labour voter?

Look, there is more to it than that, I just do not want to go on a rant on an open forum, please respect that.

MrInvisible wrote:Do you think Johnson's Brexit deal is going to improve workers' rights?

Nope, no way. There is nothing that oaf says that I agree with.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:0.06% of Labour members have had Antisemitism complaints...It is more of a problem in the Tory Party..

But as the MSM is 90% Tory we can forgive LordDowlais for his ignorance on the subject..

Yes the Boris buddy Rabbi coming out the day of the Postals was a complete coincidence.

Just to make you aware, I am not a fan of the Tories, not in a million miles. They do nothing that I stand for.

super_realist wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

There'd be hope for the UK if it was some kind of genuine federation, but it's not. In the words of our glorious leader, “I’m not convinced there is a case for an England-only parliament. We have an England-only parliament. It’s in Westminster. It’s been there for a long time. I’m not disposed to create another parliament.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17739039.johnson-we-have-an-england-only-parliament-its-westminster/

You lose all credibility, if you ever had any by quoting "The National". It is probably the most biased, parochial, worthless rag in the entire UK, and only has a circulation around 9k. They seize on any quote and make headlines out of it for sensationalist purposes and to rabble rouse their bigoted anti English supporters, regardless of how the context of it might play out later. It's a despicable paper which isn't even fit to wipe your arse if you ran out of toilet paper.

If the quotation is genuine, the source is neither here nor there, is it?

As for the bit in bold, we've never interacted on here until the other day. I try to be polite and reasonable on here, if you're going to get personal I'll leave you to talk to yourself.

I'll say again, I don't work for Plaid Cymru, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

LordDowlais wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:0.06% of Labour members have had Antisemitism complaints...It is more of a problem in the Tory Party..

But as the MSM is 90% Tory we can forgive LordDowlais for his ignorance on the subject..

Yes the Boris buddy Rabbi coming out the day of the Postals was a complete coincidence.

Just to make you aware, I am not a fan of the Tories, not in a million miles. They do nothing that I stand for.

My post was perhaps stronger that it should have been..

Do find it perverse how a life long Anti racist gets labelled a racist while an Etonian Clown insults Single mothers...Working class People...Black People...Muslims and just about everyone else but it's just "Boris being Boris..

My hope is there is a Hung Parliament and we go again with Starmer or Thornberry....But it seems a faint hope.

Any how I have quite a bit of work to catch up on...Have a Plane to catch in a couple of days..My PV is in and I bid you all a festive time...and what will be will be..

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

There'd be hope for the UK if it was some kind of genuine federation, but it's not. In the words of our glorious leader, “I’m not convinced there is a case for an England-only parliament. We have an England-only parliament. It’s in Westminster. It’s been there for a long time. I’m not disposed to create another parliament.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17739039.johnson-we-have-an-england-only-parliament-its-westminster/

You lose all credibility, if you ever had any by quoting "The National". It is probably the most biased, parochial, worthless rag in the entire UK, and only has a circulation around 9k. They seize on any quote and make headlines out of it for sensationalist purposes and to rabble rouse their bigoted anti English supporters, regardless of how the context of it might play out later. It's a despicable paper which isn't even fit to wipe your arse if you ran out of toilet paper.

If the quotation is genuine, the source is neither here nor there, is it?

As for the bit in bold, we've never interacted on here until the other day. I try to be polite and reasonable on here, if you're going to get personal I'll leave you to talk to yourself.

I'll say again, I don't work for Plaid Cymru, and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

I don't take anything that rag says as genuine just because they've printed it. You also have no idea of the context in which it was allegedly said. That publication makes its very meagre living on printing sensationalist soundbites. That's why I said that using it as a source lacks credibility.


You'd have to be incredibly naive to suggest that the source is not important. You wouldn't trust a headline in the National Enquirer or Sunday Sport would you? Yet you seem to blindly accept a line in a pro Nationalist dreadful newspaper. You can't really get a newspaper less credible in the UK than The National. It's borderline conspiracy type stuff, but then if don't live in the Scottish buckfast belt I doubt you'd ever have heard of it, but if you Google for bad things people say then that's the sort of crackpot source you'll find.

Quality of source is paramount to whether you can trust it.

It's not a headline, it's a quote.

Not that I have any duty to provide anything for someone I've never met before, here's a few more links to the quote:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=I%E2%80%99m+not+convinced+there+is+a+case+for+an+England-only+parliament.+We+have+an+England-only+parliament.+It%E2%80%99s+in+Westminster.+It%E2%80%99s+been+there+for+a+long+time.+I%E2%80%99m+not+disposed+to+create+another+parliament.

Is ITV acceptable?

I'm at work, for f*ck's sake.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not a headline, it's a quote.

I can make a quote and attribute it to anyone in history, doesn't make it true. That's the point.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Oddsmakers have picked

215 Seats for the over/under markets for Labour...

18 Seats for the over/under markets for Lib Dem..

Suppose the SNP pick up their 40 as expected..

18 N.Ireland...4 PC....1 Green....

Predicted 58 majority at the moment..

You could ‘sell’ Lib Dem seats at 44 when the election was first announced. Which seems exceedingly prudent now.

Labour were a buy at 210 - so not a huge change for them yet.

super_realist wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not a headline, it's a quote.

I can make a quote and attribute it to anyone in history, doesn't make it true. That's the point.

Lol, give over.