Refreshed side

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Nov 2019, 8:17 am

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

by lostinwales Tue 26 Nov 2019, 11:14 pm

miaow wrote:....

Wiestmantel coincided with England improving their attack, that's for sure, but it was hardly a departure from 2016. I'd suggest that it was the training that made the difference, as their accuracy, comfort, and decision making on the ball was improved from 16/17. You're never going to turn English rugby players in to Kiwis or Fijians - you're unlikely to even have the broken field instinct and ability of the Welsh and the French. But he did his job.

....

Just looking at some stats. And yes this is very general
Last 10 years England scored 345 tries in 122 games. Win percentage 69.26% (2nd only to a certain southern hemisphere team out of the big boys)
Ireland 339 in 122, 63.66%
Wales 287 in 131, 55.72%
France 233 in 115, 48.26%

And yet somehow we are the ones who can only score in 3's, can't run with the ball etc.

by Rinsure Wed 27 Nov 2019, 8:05 am

In this article in the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/nov/26/eddie-jones-confirms-attack-coach-scott-wisemantel-left-england-rugby-union-staff) Ben Youngs credits Wisemantel with making significant improvements to the first phase attack / first "set" plays.

I think we have seen England improve dramatically in this regard over the past year. I can't think of any other side who score from first phase / first set as much as England do. Yes, we might demonstrate a lack of ability to break sides down outside of that window, but from that first phase we have been pretty effective under Wisemantel's tutelage.

by SecretFly Wed 27 Nov 2019, 10:07 am

lostinwales wrote:

....somehow we are the ones who can only score in 3's, can't run with the ball etc.

What newspapers have you been reading lately, Lost?

by Geordie Wed 27 Nov 2019, 11:24 am

miaow wrote:Can't see Baxter leaving. There's European glory up for grabs. You need to see him for what he is - a modern day rarity, a real clubman, and - if not a visionary - not far off. I'd be amazed if Baxter has another job after Exeter tbh. The time is now for Exeter to pick up another 2-3 Prem titles and have a solid shot at the ECC with Saracens hopefully being forced to change their cheating ways.

Borthwick appears to be one of - if not the - best lineout operator in the game. I imagine he'll be back in the England set up within the decade, but no harm in learning in the club game for a while. Might look to make the step up to DoR/Head Coach.

Wiestmantel coincided with England improving their attack, that's for sure, but it was hardly a departure from 2016. I'd suggest that it was the training that made the difference, as their accuracy, comfort, and decision making on the ball was improved from 16/17. You're never going to turn English rugby players in to Kiwis or Fijians - you're unlikely to even have the broken field instinct and ability of the Welsh and the French. But he did his job.

Big test for EJ. Time to see if the fire is there.

Yes and no..
I think we do have those players...but historically England coaches seem reluctant to pick them, focusing more on their negatives (defensive issues) rather than what they bring offensively....
Players like Christian Wade etc spring to mind...

But we probably dont produce as many Jason robinsons than we do speedsters like Watson, or Johnny May...

by lostinwales Wed 27 Nov 2019, 11:29 am

SecretFly wrote:
lostinwales wrote:

....somehow we are the ones who can only score in 3's, can't run with the ball etc.

What newspapers have you been reading lately, Lost?

Not many for some reason. Its just I get frustrated with comments like Miaow's because it implies a style of play which is not matched by reality.

England does not produce so many side to side backs moves because we tend to either score very quickly, make a hash of things and turn the ball over, or make the 'pragmatic decision' and kick the ball for territory. We do score tries and we do exploit broken field situations, just don't tend to use up time on pretty stuff that could be spent actually scoring points.

by Guest Wed 27 Nov 2019, 12:16 pm

king_carlos wrote:
miaow wrote:Can't see Baxter leaving. There's European glory up for grabs. You need to see him for what he is - a modern day rarity, a real clubman, and - if not a visionary - not far off. I'd be amazed if Baxter has another job after Exeter tbh. The time is now for Exeter to pick up another 2-3 Prem titles and have a solid shot at the ECC with Saracens hopefully being forced to change their cheating ways.

I'm suggesting Rob Hunter, the Exeter forwards coach, rather than Baxter.

I can only see Baxter leaving Chiefs for an international head coach opportunity. Even then he probably won't feel his jobs done until/if Exeter overcome their issues converting Prem success into Europe.

Hunter has a fantastic reputation and has overseen one of the best packs in Europe being built at Chiefs. Critically forwards have a tendency to improve a lot under his coaching.

My mistake, must have read what I wanted to read! Yes, he's clearly very good. Retro English coach - vintage principles, without being outdated. Their 22 work is second to none, and we saw Wales adopt similar pick and go game in the last 12 months, to generally good success. Off the top of my head, a Wyn Jones try v England, North's try v England (both warm ups), the carrying v SA when hugely outmuscled (led to try off first phase scrum), and a try v NZ in the 3rd place play off.

You get England playing to their strengths and get them carrying hard and they're top 3 in the world consistently.

by Guest Wed 27 Nov 2019, 12:17 pm

lostinwales wrote:
miaow wrote:....

Wiestmantel coincided with England improving their attack, that's for sure, but it was hardly a departure from 2016. I'd suggest that it was the training that made the difference, as their accuracy, comfort, and decision making on the ball was improved from 16/17. You're never going to turn English rugby players in to Kiwis or Fijians - you're unlikely to even have the broken field instinct and ability of the Welsh and the French. But he did his job.

....

Just looking at some stats. And yes this is very general
Last 10 years England scored 345 tries in 122 games. Win percentage 69.26% (2nd only to a certain southern hemisphere team out of the big boys)
Ireland 339 in 122, 63.66%
Wales 287 in 131, 55.72%
France 233 in 115, 48.26%

And yet somehow we are the ones who can only score in 3's, can't run with the ball etc.

Your conclusion is too dense to be worthy of response other than 'that's not what I said'.

by Guest Wed 27 Nov 2019, 12:20 pm

Rinsure wrote:In this article in the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/nov/26/eddie-jones-confirms-attack-coach-scott-wisemantel-left-england-rugby-union-staff) Ben Youngs credits Wisemantel with making significant improvements to the first phase attack / first "set" plays.

I think we have seen England improve dramatically in this regard over the past year. I can't think of any other side who score from first phase / first set as much as England do. Yes, we might demonstrate a lack of ability to break sides down outside of that window, but from that first phase we have been pretty effective under Wisemantel's tutelage.

Agreed. There was a more noticeable comfort on the ball, accuracy, and ruthlessness, as I said. Only SA were able to upset that, and that started in the packs from minute 1 to 80, and Wales, who used game management to force England to play a game Wales could beat them at. As I said, I would imagine that it's the training methods - rather than the tactics, per se - that he brought. Just creating comfort and confidence in what you're doing as the actual tactics, the actual was they attack from first phase, isn't vastly different to what preceded his arrival.

by Guest Wed 27 Nov 2019, 12:27 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
miaow wrote:Can't see Baxter leaving. There's European glory up for grabs. You need to see him for what he is - a modern day rarity, a real clubman, and - if not a visionary - not far off. I'd be amazed if Baxter has another job after Exeter tbh. The time is now for Exeter to pick up another 2-3 Prem titles and have a solid shot at the ECC with Saracens hopefully being forced to change their cheating ways.

Borthwick appears to be one of - if not the - best lineout operator in the game. I imagine he'll be back in the England set up within the decade, but no harm in learning in the club game for a while. Might look to make the step up to DoR/Head Coach.

Wiestmantel coincided with England improving their attack, that's for sure, but it was hardly a departure from 2016. I'd suggest that it was the training that made the difference, as their accuracy, comfort, and decision making on the ball was improved from 16/17. You're never going to turn English rugby players in to Kiwis or Fijians - you're unlikely to even have the broken field instinct and ability of the Welsh and the French. But he did his job.

Big test for EJ. Time to see if the fire is there.

Yes and no..
I think we do have those players...but historically England coaches seem reluctant to pick them, focusing more on their negatives (defensive issues) rather than what they bring offensively....
Players like Christian Wade etc spring to mind...

But we probably dont produce as many Jason robinsons than we do speedsters like Watson, or Johnny May...

I don't mean broken field runners. England proably has the best in the NH if you want pace/power/stepping. Cokanasiga, Watson, May etc. I mean across the board, the catch-pass, understanding of space, basic running skills in broken field irrespective of position. Gatland said as much recently that the Welsh had the best basic skills in the NH, and I'd say the French show better understanding and ability in broken field than the English as well - it just needs a coach to bring together the rest of their game.

by Geordie Wed 27 Nov 2019, 12:34 pm

Ah ok...yes i would generally i agree with that. Though...with the likes of Curry, Sinkler, George, showing far improved skills than previous incumbents...maybe its changing...

Henry Slade is frustrating in that regard at Int level...maybe he just needs more games.

by Guest Wed 27 Nov 2019, 12:39 pm

Slade definitely needs more games. Lots of hopes seem to be pinned on Daly but I see Slade as the more natural versatile back in that England side. 10-15 years ago, when the game was a bit less physical, he'd have been a starter. Real rugby brain, much moreso than Daly. Successfully slotting the two together could/should be interesting, and why I think it also makes sense to persist with Daly at 15 now. There are 2-4 years (Lions, RWC) to really get him up to speed. Specialist training in the backfield is the starter.

by nlpnlp Wed 27 Nov 2019, 1:16 pm

You would think going to Saracens would help Daly improve the basics - if he plays at fullback. And it does show some ambition from him to move from the 'comfort' of Wasps where he has been a big player for some time, to Saracens where he will have competition from Goode and Williams for the 15 shirt. There is certainly no lack of ability, just a perceived failing under the high ball and not always being convincing in the one on one tackles that a fullback needs to do.

I would like to see Slade permanently in the 13 shirt as he does seem to have all the skills and as New Zealand have shown your centres don't need to be prop sized to play there. Looking at his stats I see he is 26 - he has been to 2 world cups - and is 6'3" and just over 14st. So he isn't small, but he is definitely not a Basteraud. You just feel that he needs to take the opportunity now and that Jones needs to show some faith in him in the 13 shirt to give him the confidence. But that will mean Jones taking the decision on keeping Farrell at 10, rather than sticking him at 12, as a fit Manu seems to be first choice in either the 12 or 13 shirt.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Nov 2019, 1:20 pm

Throw in daly went to pieces in the final as well though as well as being weak in the air and suspect positioning.
Both him and slade will very likely be here for the 6 nations (though doubt slade will start) but they'll be coming under increases pressure unless they both start to live up to their potential.

by Guest Wed 27 Nov 2019, 1:27 pm

Daly didn't do anything that Farrell hasn't done numerous times in his career - fail to perform (lol) under pressure.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 Nov 2019, 1:27 pm

Dear me.

by Gooseberry Wed 27 Nov 2019, 1:30 pm

nlpnlp wrote:You would think going to Saracens would help Daly improve the basics - if he plays at fullback. And it does show some ambition from him to move from the 'comfort' of Wasps where he has been a big player for some time, to Saracens where he will have competition from Goode and Williams for the 15 shirt. There is certainly no lack of ability, just a perceived failing under the high ball and not always being convincing in the one on one tackles that a fullback needs to do.

I would like to see Slade permanently in the 13 shirt as he does seem to have all the skills and as New Zealand have shown your centres don't need to be prop sized to play there. Looking at his stats I see he is 26 - he has been to 2 world cups - and is 6'3" and just over 14st. So he isn't small, but he is definitely not a Basteraud. You just feel that he needs to take the opportunity now and that Jones needs to show some faith in him in the 13 shirt to give him the confidence. But that will mean Jones taking the decision on keeping Farrell at 10, rather than sticking him at 12, as a fit Manu seems to be first choice in either the 12 or 13 shirt.

Daly has already played for Sarries in the HC at fullback and did very well, albeit on a bit of a flat track.

Slades never really been a first choice for Jones but he definitely has some decisions to make around his midfield, which could include Daly (who he always starts somewhere when fit) back at 13, JJ, Manu (who could play 12), Slade (whos an outside option at 15 but usually the utility replacement) or a new player out of the blue. As you suggest that decision could well be driven by what happens at 10/12, does Ford stay or Farrell get the 10 shirt?

The only real certainty is that Farrell will be in the starting team somewhere, the captaincy isnt going to change right now, and Tuillagi is likely the first choice centre, be that at 12 or 13.

And this could all be chucked up in the air again when the new coaches come in. The idea of anyone getting a guaranteed long run right now is pretty low, especially as all the main world cup players are getting the summer off.

I suspect we will see pretty much the same England start the 6 nations that ended the world cup simply because of the level of uncertainty ahead. By this time next year though the team will probably have had significant changes both in the personnel and the way it plays.

by Gooseberry Wed 27 Nov 2019, 1:30 pm

miaow wrote:Daly didn't do anything that Farrell hasn't done numerous times in his career - fail to perform (lol) under pressure.

TBF they aren't employed to do Queen karaoke

by **LondonTiger** Wed 27 Nov 2019, 3:02 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
miaow wrote:Daly didn't do anything that Farrell hasn't done numerous times in his career - fail to perform (lol) under pressure.

TBF they aren't employed to do Queen karaoke

Maybe that was why another one bites the dust?

by **LondonTiger** Fri 29 Nov 2019, 9:11 am

Looking at the team Saracens are putting out tonight I wonder if should that side play in a trial game this weekend against a Rest of England side (using only current fit players) I wonder who would win.

Saracens:

15 Elliot Daly (1)
14 Sean Maitland (67)
13 Duncan Taylor (119)
12 Brad Barritt (248)
11 Alex Lewington (36)
10 Owen Farrell (193)
9 Richard Wigglesworth (236)
1 Mako Vunipola (161)
2 Jamie George (220)
3 Titi Lamositele (81)
4 Will Skelton (68)
5 George Kruis (179)
6 Maro Itoje (113)
7 Jackson Wray (233)
8 Billy Vunipola (104)

Replacements
16 Jack Singleton (3)
17 Richard Barrington (178)
18 Vincent Koch (69)
19 Nick Isiekwe (73)
20 Ben Earl (48)
21 Ben Spencer (162)
22 Manu Vunipola (12)
23 Nick Tompkins (111)

Possible England:

Marler, LCD, Sinckler, Lawes, ????????, Curry, Underhill, Wilson, Youngs, Ford, Ashton, Manu, Slade, McConnochie, Nowell

Dunn, Genge, Cole, ??????, Hughes, Robson, ~~Cipriani~~ Smith?, Thorley

Note: AFAIK Launchbury Ewels, Heinz, Marchant, Joseph, May, Watson, Cokanasiga currently injured.

by Gooseberry Fri 29 Nov 2019, 9:32 am

At least the rest of england team wouldnt cost as much to field.

( what about Cokasigna?)

by **LondonTiger** Fri 29 Nov 2019, 9:36 am

Gooseberry wrote:At least the rest of england team wouldnt cost as much to field.

( what about Cokasigna?)

Injured.

As he went to Japan, I suppose Francis would be considered.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 29 Nov 2019, 9:45 am

I know you've mirrored recent selections but prefer rokoduguni to his club team mate.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 29 Nov 2019, 9:55 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know you've mirrored recent selections but prefer rokoduguni to his club team mate.

So do I.

by Cumbrian Sat 30 Nov 2019, 4:59 pm

George Furbank and James Grayson (Christ I feel old writing that) look very good players.

I wouldn't touch a Leicester player (May and possibly Ford aside) with a barge pole at the moment, their collective confidence looks shot.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 30 Nov 2019, 5:32 pm

Amazing what a good coaching group will do. Furbank did look very good.

by king_carlos Sun 01 Dec 2019, 1:00 am

Cumbrian wrote:I wouldn't touch a Leicester player (May and possibly Ford aside) with a barge pole at the moment, their collective confidence looks shot.

I can't think of any player who has shown a greater disparity between international and club form than Ben Youngs over the last few seasons. It's so frustrating as a Tigers fan. Especially thinking back to the often enthralling sniping threat Lenny used to be back when he was taking over from Harry Ellis and had the pace of a winger.

On your more general point. Manu will always be in England's plans when fit due to how much of a weapon he is going forward.

Genge needs strong coaching to get the most out of his eminent talent. Borthwick can do that coaching him for England during the 6 Nations. It seems Borthwick will be joining Tigers after the 6 Nations, hopefully Genge is still there to work with him.

by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 01 Dec 2019, 10:56 am

With Wisemantel gone, I hope EJ leaves the Saints coaching team alone, Vesty is showing how a backline should coached. Saints are just lethal with ball in hand, everybody knows how to find space and how to exploit it whether by neat little kicks behind, or by running committing your man and then keeping yourself available.

Sadly not English, but Proctor looked out of this world in playing his first game, how much are Furbank, Hutchinson, Dingwall and Collins going to learn from him?

by No 7&1/2 Sun 01 Dec 2019, 9:37 pm

Dombrandt, smith and Thorley all had pretty decent games today.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 09 Dec 2019, 9:18 am

Suggestions that England are looking to hire Matt Proudfoot, though whether that is solely as a scrum coach is unsure.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 09 Dec 2019, 11:41 am

Always good to weaken a rival anyway. Englands scrum is already strong but the main points for anyone new coming in will be to identify the next guy after sinckler and that possibly lines up a youngster too. Cant help but feel they'll be pointing out the difference a strong scrummaging lock made.

by Guest Mon 09 Dec 2019, 4:22 pm

Should give them a boot up the oh yeah

when needed...

by Geordie Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Always good to weaken a rival anyway. Englands scrum is already strong but the main points for anyone new coming in will be to identify the next guy after sinckler and that possibly lines up a youngster too. Cant help but feel they'll be pointing out the difference a strong scrummaging lock made.

The most overlooked part of a scrum....people think its just the front row.

But i remember people saying that when Simon Shaw was in the scrum it was like having an extra man. Im sure Johno etc was the same.

I dont think we have any monsters in that area at the moment. Kruis seems to be the one they feel is the best scrummaging lock...

by Cumbrian Tue 10 Dec 2019, 11:09 am

You're right there does seem a lack of ballast in the locks. Don't get me wrong though, the players we have are superb and in a different era I would have been begging to have any one/two of them.

We still seem to miss a big angry barsteward in our pack. Even guys like Sinkler and Genge who bring edge don't really intimidate the opposition the way somebody like Johnson or Grewcock did. There doesn't even really seem someone like that on the horizon in the lock position either. I mean look at the young guys like Isiekwe, they seem more athletic than powerful. Perhaps Kpoku will be the one in a couple of years? 6ft 5in and nearly 20 stone when he is just out of his teens lends promise.

by Geordie Tue 10 Dec 2019, 11:57 am

I guess these days...players like Retallick are a special breed.

Skilled and the huge brute hard man rolled into one.

by Geordie Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:00 pm

Cumbrian wrote:You're right there does seem a lack of ballast in the locks. Don't get me wrong though, the players we have are superb and in a different era I would have been begging to have any one/two of them.

We still seem to miss a big angry barsteward in our pack. Even guys like Sinkler and Genge who bring edge don't really intimidate the opposition the way somebody like Johnson or Grewcock did. There doesn't even really seem someone like that on the horizon in the lock position either. I mean look at the young guys like Isiekwe, they seem more athletic than powerful. Perhaps Kpoku will be the one in a couple of years? 6ft 5in and nearly 20 stone when he is just out of his teens lends promise.

I got a shock when i heard he was only 21 still and has played 75 times for Saracens. He looks a unit with athleticsm combined...and the last game he was absolutely immense for them.

21 is young for a lock still. And yes that Kpoku looks massive.

by Cumbrian Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:26 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50729530

Dombrandt getting talked up for the Six Nations by Care, says he can cover all three back-row positions. I'm not sure I would be confident with him at seven, but perhaps a Quins fans would be able to say more on this?

Interestingly, Care mentions Marler in relation to the England squad. Perhaps it doesn't mean anything, but Care would be closer than an outsider to Marler and maybe he has heard something?

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:35 pm

"And yes that Kpoku looks massive."

Signed for Saints starting next season so probably Lawes long term replacement. If he can get into the way Boyd wants to play, with that size he is going to be awesome in the future.

With players like Alex Dombrandt coming through England look like they are going to have a massive young pack fairy shortly

by king_carlos Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:53 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Always good to weaken a rival anyway. Englands scrum is already strong but the main points for anyone new coming in will be to identify the next guy after sinckler and that possibly lines up a youngster too. Cant help but feel they'll be pointing out the difference a strong scrummaging lock made.

The most overlooked part of a scrum....people think its just the front row.

But i remember people saying that when Simon Shaw was in the scrum it was like having an extra man. Im sure Johno etc was the same.

I dont think we have any monsters in that area at the moment. Kruis seems to be the one they feel is the best scrummaging lock...

Itoje's srummaging was a factor in him settling at lock rather than blindside. He's been viewed as one of the best scrummaging locks available by a lot of coaches now. Hatley for England, Rowntree for the Lions and a Sarries scrum that consistently does well for itself despite Mako and Koch not being considered the strongest scrummagers around.

by propdavid_london Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:00 pm

Dombrandt's best position is from no.8 in my opinion.
Give him licence to roam a bit and makes great yards in the carry. Could be a good long term foil to Billy V.

Based on recent performances perhaps we shouldn't rule out Hughes.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:05 pm

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Always good to weaken a rival anyway. Englands scrum is already strong but the main points for anyone new coming in will be to identify the next guy after sinckler and that possibly lines up a youngster too. Cant help but feel they'll be pointing out the difference a strong scrummaging lock made.

The most overlooked part of a scrum....people think its just the front row.

But i remember people saying that when Simon Shaw was in the scrum it was like having an extra man. Im sure Johno etc was the same.

I dont think we have any monsters in that area at the moment. Kruis seems to be the one they feel is the best scrummaging lock...

Itoje's srummaging was a factor in him settling at lock rather than blindside. He's been viewed as one of the best scrummaging locks available by a lot of coaches now. Hatley for England, Rowntree for the Lions and a Sarries scrum that consistently does well for itself despite Mako and Koch not being considered the strongest scrummagers around.

I thought they rated Kruis as a much stronger scrummager versus Itoje, and certainly it was noticeable how much we improved on teh TH side when he came on and started pushing behind Cole.

by Geordie Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:15 pm

Quick question...does the lack of height matter at the top levels.

For example...Retallick is 6'9 (if accounts are correct)

Itoje - 6'5 - gives away 4 inches
Isiekwe 6'6 - the tallest of the new batch still gives away 3 inches
Kpoku 6'4 - 5 inches shorter than Retallick
Lawes - 6'7 - Standard height for a lock IMO
Launchbury 6'6
Kruis - 6'7

Or does it not matter remotely.

by nlpnlp Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:30 pm

With lifting an extra 3 or 4 inches in height/arm span doesn't make a lot of difference. Peter O'Mahony is one of the best line out jumpers at 2 and is only 6' 3".

Retallick is a very good player, but I wouldn't single out his lineout work as being a stand out part of his game. He is good in the lineout as is the lifting, but I don't think that is linked particularly to his height, it is more of a 'the All Blacks are very good at all the basics' thing.

by Cumbrian Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:30 pm

It may be a factor, but I doubt it is a defining one. It can probably offset by other factors such as athleticism and how well organised a line-out is. I feel the poor basics of a lot of the the English hookers may be more of a factor TBH...

by nlpnlp Tue 10 Dec 2019, 1:36 pm

The throwing in of recently converted flankers playing hooker seems to be more of an issue, plus calling the lineouts well. England do seem to function better in the lineout with Kruis calling, although Lawes does seem to have improved this part of his game.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:34 pm

Isiekwe is just a bit average for me at the moment. Clearly has the physical attributes but doesn't really.use them well enough. As mentioned still very young so may come on leaps and bounds.

by Cumbrian Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:52 pm

I must admit, I found watching the Premiership teams in Europe very frustrating this weekend. The set piece was often a real struggle. More than this though, the lack of basic skills (catch the damn ball for goodness sake!) and the poor decision making were particularly painful. They seem to commit so many unnecessary offences, such as neck rolls in clear outs. A lot of them seem very soft too, like they are beaten before they even kick a ball.

So many teams (I'm looking at you Bath!) are worse than the sum of their parts (I get that Bath had a lot of injuries this weekend). Coaching seems a genuine problem for a lot of the clubs.

I know they are better than this, it is very frustrating to watch.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 10 Dec 2019, 2:56 pm

I'd echo that. The system of training coaches seems to lag behind in england. There are a few very promising guys but have mainly shadowed excellent coaches elsewhere (Borthwick) or have gone outside the system to improve. Will this be something that comes under the remit of the RFU and O shea?

by Cumbrian Tue 10 Dec 2019, 3:11 pm

I'm not sure, but it is definitely something that needs looked at. I genuinely believe with the raw product and youth development that England have we could be the best team in the world consistently, not just for the odd purple patch here or there.

To achieve this, in my humble opinion, we need to look at two things. The first is the coaching and the second is the mentality of the players at the top of the English game. They need to be cooler and keep their heads when under pressure. I have lost count of the number of times we've blown winning leads or shat the bed in crunch matches. For a lot of the last decade England had an 80% winning ratio in the 6 nations but have only managed a single grand-slam and not nearly enough titles. It is maddening.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 10 Dec 2019, 3:12 pm

Owen Slot - The Times wrote:On the face of it, rugby coaching in England is in a pretty pathetic state, isn’t it? The national team is run by foreign coaches. Where has the English coaching talent gone?

When Eddie Jones took over as head coach four years ago, part of his job description was to develop future England coaches. And yet he is still shopping abroad. So either he has failed England or the English coaches just aren’t up to it.

At least that is how it looks.

The news, as yet unconfirmed, is that Jones is set to make a new appointment in his coaching staff, possibly before Christmas, with Matt Proudfoot coming in, probably as scrum coach. Proudfoot was the scrum coach of South Africa and, yes, above all else, it was his department that smashed England’s hopes in the World Cup final. Neal Hatley, who was England’s scrum coach until the end of the Japan campaign, has left for a job at Bath. You might say that it therefore makes sense to hire Proudfoot as Hatley’s replacement. It’s a case of “if you can’t beat him, get him to join us”.

Yet Proudfoot is a South African who won four caps for Scotland. When he joins the England coaching team, he will be joining Jones, who is Australian, and John Mitchell, who is a New Zealander. The other significant name in this is Scott Wisemantel, who was also on the coaching staff in Japan; he has left now, but he is Australian too.

Steve Borthwick, who is English, is due to leave the coaching staff and will probably join Leicester Tigers. Under such circumstances, that leaves no English coaches on the England staff. That is not supposed to sound xenophobic; but it does sound as though England are failing to produce any decent coaches.

Yet this is not the case. It is not even close.

Yes, there are deficiencies. England do not have a production line of genius coaching talent; not like New Zealand. The RFU has had a vacancy in the job of head of coaching development since April, so maybe it does not take coaching development as seriously as it should. Maybe it is not surprising that there are gaps.

However, that is not the story here. Jones and his foreign shopping sprees are not a reflection on the failure of the England coaching system — because it is not a failure at all.

There are, in particular, a lot of good young attack coaches coming through. There are good scrum coaches too. There is a deficiency in forwards coaches and defence coaches, but
there is still no need to shop abroad.

If I were Jones I would recruit the following coaching team. I would keep Mitchell; he was a real success with England as defence coach but I would move him to forwards coach. He probably knows the territory there even better.

Then I would go straight to Saracens. My first target would be Alex Sanderson, the defence coach. He is one of the most respected coaches in the country and is being groomed to take over as Saracens’ next director of rugby. Get him on board to coach defence.

While at Saracens, I would also recruit Ian Peel as my scrum coach. He has already had one stint with England; he knows the territory. You could stay at Saracens and pillage even more. Their attack coach, Joe Shaw, is very talented too. However, I would move on. Dave Walder (Newcastle Falcons) and Sam Vesty (Northampton Saints) are bright attack coaches, as is Alex King (Montpellier). The right target, though, is Ali Hepher, the head coach at Exeter Chiefs. There. Job done. Team assembled.

You cannot underestimate the importance of getting this right. On Thursday, New Zealand will announce the appointment of the new All Blacks coach. The two frontrunners, Ian Foster and Scott Robertson, had to submit their proposed coaching team when applying. Oh, and no overseas imports. So why can’t England be more English? Three reasons.

One: This is a hunch, but it just seems that Jones has a greater trust of those he knows overseas. Four years ago, when he started, he took on Borthwick, Hatley and Paul Gustard. Since then, only foreign coaches. I think he underestimates the quality on his doorstep. He will recruit at least one Englishman to his staff but that may be because the RFU demands that he does. To not do so would just look too bad.

Two: Though the pull of the national team, theoretically, should trump everything, working at the highest level is not necessarily everyone’s goal. Increasingly, coaches have become wedded to their club where the ties can grow so strong, and where life is more conducive to bringing up young families. This is possibly more the case at Saracens than anywhere else. Strangely, the salary cap setback has probably bound Sanderson et al even tighter to the club cause where no one wants to be walking away and letting the group down.

Three: Jones himself. Everyone knows how relentless and exacting a taskmaster he is; his reputation travels, the stories are legion. He might make you a better coach, you may learn and improve alongside him, you may even get to win a World Cup — but you have to be prepared to live at the furnace. Gustard and Hatley have walked away, Borthwick will follow. Jones doesn’t have the pick of any English coach he wants because some will just say no.

So there are good English coaches out there. Don’t believe otherwise. Getting them to come and coach England — that is a different matter.

by Guest Tue 10 Dec 2019, 4:06 pm

England defininitely do not need more of the Saracens set up. Weaknesses get hidden and go less challenged than elsewhere by their relative strength to all other clubs.

I'd also say test coaching is becoming noticeably different than club coaching. You want constant innovation and accuracy, not consistency, which would be the major differences between the two.

Good job Owen Slot isn't hiring...

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