Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?module=3&section=36&subsection=129&language=en

"It is not mandatory for the team receiving the challenge to face it."

How many effing times. If they don't face it up silently and respectfully they get massive media criticism.

No they don't!

This is getting crazy!

[beninho]

Biggest cause og homelessness is ll evicting tenants, generally under s21, so no fault evictions. People who's income and benfits are not enough to cover the rents of properties, and whose assistance in housing benefit has decreased due to rents outstripping the benefits paid. This is why homelessness has increased by 50% over the past years. Austerity. Under 35s cant afford properties due to cuts to hb.

Rough sleepers,have more issues, but again are impacted by cuts to the services available.

And why are you an idiot for voting tory? If you cant see the mess caused by 9 years of tory rule and the brexit clusterfk then well...

[JAS]

Evening all.Dixon of Dock Green for the older folk
Just watched JC clip from last night watches the Queens Speech on Xmas morning must be the new amazon prime preplay deal.What a complete tool who obviously avoids the queens speech as a part of his ideals.Just incredible.
Good win for Leicester last night apparently Man City are now 11 points behind Liverpool at the top .

Why wouldn't Corbyn just admit he doesn't watch it? Most people don't, so he's not losing face with anyone by saying he doesn't, and no one would expect him to be an avid viewer anyway. I've never seen it and have no inclination to ever watch it.

Actually I’d have to agree (shock) realistically it’s his biggest gaffe of the campaign. Why couldn’t he just be straight, I facepalmed when I saw it, flipping car crash!!
In the grand scheme of life the universe and everything though it’s rather inconsequential, I think we all know he’s not exactly well endowed with great leadership qualities but that being said, for the sake of the country I wish people would actually start trying to understand the underlying political choices that face us us and stop focusing on the personalities of the idiots masquerading as leaders.

Some ****ing choice. Labour are not electable and what JC's party are offering is all a lovely pipe dream and simply not believable as presented.

I simply don’t agree Navy, it’s not a pipe dream it’s a serious effort to try and address the issues caused by nearly 40 years of neoliberalism. Yes it looks like old style Keynesian economics....because it is!!! That’s the approach that rebuilt the country after the war when we started of with debt running at 264% of GDP. It works!!

[kwinigolfer]

Watford appoint Nigel Pearson - wonder what Dyna thinks of that? (Assuming it's not fake news.)

[navyblueshorts]

Biggest cause og homelessness is ll evicting tenants, generally under s21, so no fault evictions. People who's income and benfits are not enough to cover the rents of properties, and whose assistance in housing benefit has decreased due to rents outstripping the benefits paid. This is why homelessness has increased by 50% over the past years. Austerity. Under 35s cant afford properties due to cuts to hb.

Rough sleepers,have more issues, but again are impacted by cuts to the services available.

And why are you an idiot for voting tory? If you cant see the mess caused by 9 years of tory rule and the brexit clusterfk then well...

Ben (and Mac): if you're going to start this sort of personal attack, you might want to take a day or so away from here to cool off. Capiche?

[navyblueshorts]

Evening all.Dixon of Dock Green for the older folk
Just watched JC clip from last night watches the Queens Speech on Xmas morning must be the new amazon prime preplay deal.What a complete tool who obviously avoids the queens speech as a part of his ideals.Just incredible.
Good win for Leicester last night apparently Man City are now 11 points behind Liverpool at the top .

Why wouldn't Corbyn just admit he doesn't watch it? Most people don't, so he's not losing face with anyone by saying he doesn't, and no one would expect him to be an avid viewer anyway. I've never seen it and have no inclination to ever watch it.

Actually I’d have to agree (shock) realistically it’s his biggest gaffe of the campaign. Why couldn’t he just be straight, I facepalmed when I saw it, flipping car crash!!
In the grand scheme of life the universe and everything though it’s rather inconsequential, I think we all know he’s not exactly well endowed with great leadership qualities but that being said, for the sake of the country I wish people would actually start trying to understand the underlying political choices that face us us and stop focusing on the personalities of the idiots masquerading as leaders.

Some ****ing choice. Labour are not electable and what JC's party are offering is all a lovely pipe dream and simply not believable as presented.

I simply don’t agree Navy, it’s not a pipe dream it’s a serious effort to try and address the issues caused by nearly 40 years of neoliberalism. Yes it looks like old style Keynesian economics....because it is!!! That’s the approach that rebuilt the country after the war when we started of with debt running at 264% of GDP. It works!!

'Fraid not. Why don't you elect me? I can offer you all sorts of aspirational free stuff. It's stupid, dishonest 'politics', the costing of which is not explained. They can do one.

[McLaren]

Navy

"Capiche"?

[McLaren]

Navy

Maybe you don't understand JAS's point but don't dismiss it as dishonest because you lack the thinking ability to work it out.

[super_realist]

Navy

Maybe you don't understand JAS's point but don't dismiss it as dishonest because you lack the thinking ability to work it out.

Why should anyone accept any of the ideas Corbyn has put across? First of all they have been deemed unworkable by various Financial institutions, and secondly the type of political system that Corbyn is putting forward has never succeeded anywhere in the world at any time.

[super_realist]

Biggest cause og homelessness is ll evicting tenants, generally under s21, so no fault evictions. People who's income and benfits are not enough to cover the rents of properties, and whose assistance in housing benefit has decreased due to rents outstripping the benefits paid. This is why homelessness has increased by 50% over the past years. Austerity. Under 35s cant afford properties due to cuts to hb.

Rough sleepers,have more issues, but again are impacted by cuts to the services available.

And why are you an idiot for voting tory? If you cant see the mess caused by 9 years of tory rule and the brexit clusterfk then well...

You cannot evict tenants in the UK anymore unless the tenant is breaking the terms of the lease, if the property is up for sale or if the owner wants to occupy the property.

It's hilarious that you suggest under 35's can't afford properties.

[McLaren]

Super

To put it simply kenyesian economics is not about being a fiscal hawk in year 1.

[super_realist]

Navy

Maybe you don't understand JAS's point but don't dismiss it as dishonest because you lack the thinking ability to work it out.

You seriously believe the claims of any party's manifesto are honest? Come on Mac. They've all been laughed out of town, ergo they are dishonest lies designed to gain votes.

Parties should be legally bound to carry out their manifestos because at the moment they can say anything and promise anything they like even if they are as preposterous and unachievable as both the Tories and Labour have done?

[super_realist]

Super

To put it simply kenyesian economics is not about being a fiscal hawk in year 1.

Why don't you explain to all us idiots how Corbyn's plans are workable, affordable and fully costed? You can't. They are laughable.

[McLaren]

I am not about to claim I can cost a party's manifesto single handedly but it is proven economic theory to run budget deficits to fund large infrastructure projects and reap the rewards down the line.

[super_realist]

Mac, there will always be budget deficits, we've only had two surplus budgets in 20 years.

What makes you think crackpot schemes like renationalising energy, communications, transport is going to do for the economy? What do you think getting rid of private schools is going to do for the economy?

How are Corbyn's plans even Keynesian? He's planning on raising taxes.

[McLaren]

Super

I think it will make the UK a much more pleasant place to live and it will boost the economy. Is there really any way you could also be convinced of that?

[super_realist]

Why will it though Mac? Your "faith" is a good way to be wrong. You need to explain why you think that, not just that you think it.

How will nationalised industries make the UK a better place to live? You must be about 33-35 now, which means you are too young to remember how terrible the 80's were when most of the industries were nationalised, Gas, BT, Car companies, rail etc. The reason for this was A) rampant unionism and frequent strikes B) absolutely terrible products and service because nationalised industries have no incentive to be efficient or innovative. Why would any nationalised industry ever get better, and how on earth do you propose that a government could afford to do so? You can't just force private companies to give them over to the government. Many of these private companies are thriving, governments only really have a history of buying back failing businesses. Who's going to pay the shareholders?

Let's just take one of them shall we? What have the UK got to gain by having a nationalised communications network?

You also won't remember how terrible the public rail system was.

Over to you. Why would the UK be better under nationalisation?

What large infrastructure projects are you talking about anyway? People like you constantly moan about such projects when they are done as being a large waste of time and money anyway, yet now you are proposing that we do some for the good of the economy? What do you think of Crossrail for example, or HS2? These are big infrastructure projects. What infrastructure projects are you suggesting we should do, and why would they be good for the economy?

[beninho]

Biggest cause og homelessness is ll evicting tenants, generally under s21, so no fault evictions. People who's income and benfits are not enough to cover the rents of properties, and whose assistance in housing benefit has decreased due to rents outstripping the benefits paid. This is why homelessness has increased by 50% over the past years. Austerity. Under 35s cant afford properties due to cuts to hb.

Rough sleepers,have more issues, but again are impacted by cuts to the services available.

And why are you an idiot for voting tory? If you cant see the mess caused by 9 years of tory rule and the brexit clusterfk then well...

You cannot evict tenants in the UK anymore unless the tenant is breaking the terms of the lease, if the property is up for sale or if the owner wants to occupy the property.

It's hilarious that you suggest under 35's can't afford properties.

Sorry, you what? Please stay out of things you know, clearly, frick all about. You know what a s21 notice is?

And under 35s are capped under hb schemese, which makes renting very difficult and unaffordable for a number of people, again, I'd ask you to stay out of things you know nowt about.

[super_realist]

I was talking about the blanket suggestion that under 35's couldn't afford housing. What's being under 35 got to do with how much money you have?

Besides a section 21 notice comes with 2 months notice by law. Who couldn't find a new place in that time? The way you talk is as if people are just thrown onto the street.

[beninho]

Not the street, usually temporary accommodation or hostels.

Im happy to discuss homelessness, its my job, but people need to accep the issues and problems faced within london.

[McLaren]

Super

Bow out. You are talking shite.

[super_realist]

I'm happy to concede you know more than me about housing and homelessness, but you shouldn't attempt to bar anyone from talking about something they aren't expert in when it doesn't stop you on any other topic.

[super_realist]

Super

Bow out. You are talking Poopie.

I'll take that as a concession that you won't answer my post Mac. Nice swerve.

Are you going to give me an answer as to why you think renationalised industries are good for Britain and the economy and why you think it will make Britain a "nicer" place to live. Seems like a pretty odd claim.

[beninho]

I will chime in with my views or opinions. I try not to make false claims against fact. Or try and make an argument when I have no knowledge.

[super_realist]

Anyone who has ever written on here Beninho has commented on something they have little or no knowledge of, don't be so pious and self righteous to pretend you haven't. Look at Mac for instance.

Shutting down debate though is de rigeur for those on the intolerant left though, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Your expertise is housing. Therefore everything else you are commenting on is most likely as a lay person, you may have a passing interest in it, but it doesn't mean you have any more knowledge in it than someone else.

We have this thread for a reason.

[beninho]

Im not a lefty!

[McLaren]

Super

If you think I am wasting my time putting together an analysis of labour's manifesto and an explanation of how my economic world view is valid,think again.

[super_realist]

I'm not expecting you to Mac. If you actually read what I wrote, you might have noticed I only expected you to pick one industry to renationalise and why that would be good for the country. I suggested Communications, perhaps you can pick one you can suggest it being better in public hands. (here's a clue, rail was rubbish in public hands)

You stated that you thought Britain would be better a better place to live if Labour's manifesto was implemented and a key part of that manifesto is the renationalising of many industries.

I'm simply asking you how you think a government can buy back private companies, legally and financially,  how they can afford to do so  and why it should be better, and why that would make Britain "nicer". You must have an opinion on why that would be the case, despite it never having worked before, so let's have it.

Should have guessed you'd not be up to it though. When it comes to explaining things, you've always shirked it.

[dynamark]

Kwini- Pearson and Craig Shakespeare apparently is a gamble for but probably in the position they are in as good as any .Strange guy though Pearson.
Ben Ive been down your way today(working hard on a Saturday 11 hours to make a living I know its a bit out of fashion)Acton Wembley loads of issues and homeless/on the street but if you join in and make an effort you can have a decent home and life.I work with a lot of people probably like your goodself who help in that area and do a great job .But the support is there if folk embrace it.Ultimatley we cannot be everything for everyone

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

"Capiche"?

Look it up.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

Maybe you don't understand JAS's point but don't dismiss it as dishonest because you lack the thinking ability to work it out.

I didn't dismiss it as dishonest or misunderstand it. As usual you interpret something incorrectly. Chance for a New Year's resolution in a few weeks perhaps?

[navyblueshorts]

Super

Bow out. You are talking Poopie.

You NEVER EVER post ANYTHING with any reasoned debating position; just stuff like this. You avoid describing or explaining your position on ANY issue whatsoever and this is what you come up with? Oh, please...

[JAS]

Navy

Maybe you don't understand JAS's point but don't dismiss it as dishonest because you lack the thinking ability to work it out.

Why should anyone accept any of the ideas Corbyn has put across? First of all they have been deemed unworkable by various Financial institutions, and secondly the type of political system that Corbyn is putting forward has never succeeded anywhere in the world at any time.

Ok clearly you never read my last post so I’ll repeat the basic gist of it. What The Labour Party is effectively proposing is a return to a Keynesian economic model and taking a deliberate step AWAY from unfettered free market neoliberalism. As for “never succeeded” I’ll reiterate the point....at the end of the war Britain was on its knees, national debt was over 264% of GDP. The Attlee govt invested (spent - for the stubbornnest of thinking neoliberals)  it’s way out of trouble. It created the NHS and embarked on a HUGE rebuilding program and properly dealt with the scourge of mass unemployment. Now after the Attlee govt, even the Conservatives at the time didn’t break the Keynesian model and right up to Wilson, the model worked for most people. The period 1945 - 1975 was a period of extraordinary transformation and prosperity in western democracies. So to say it has never worked is complete bunkum. Moreover, those that are desperately trying to discredit Labours proposals are the vested interests of neoliberalism (the haves, the greedy haves who would continue adinfinitum to trample on the faces of the poor until they’re pulled off). Unfortunately 30 years in to a Keynesian model (indeed most models) cracks begin to appear and in the case of the post war period these were not properly addressed, with near full employment the main downside is that labour has the whip hand over Capital, wage inflation can creep in and unless there are sound Industrial relations in place then the problem can escalate (which is obviously what happened and that is a key lesson that has to have been learned from that period.
What happened however is that instead of resolving capital/labour relations, western economies were sold neoliberalism (greed is good, no such thing as society, unemployment is a price worth paying) a world where capital will ALWAYS have the whip hand over labour and greed will freely triumph, and it has, and even when neoliberalism hit its 30 year nadir (the banking crisis) Capital rammed its head in the sand in the most remarkable display of denial in economic history and gave us austerity. So...in a nutshell, what is so very wrong with hitting the system reset button and going back to Keynesianism and try to deal with the issues it presents. In the U.K. industrial relations were the issue at the end of the 70s, yet look at the Germans, Europe’s economic powerhouse have the STRONGEST unions in Europe. So, it’s NOT unions that are the problem, it’s how they are negotiated with that we should be addressing.

[dynamark]

Guys at least it will all be over with in four more days.
What I would say is I would rather be living in this society now than 25 yeas ago.
50 years ago you had to scrape the ice off the inside of the windows and go to the corner phone box to make a phone call.
There will always be areas and sections of folk who have problems but unemployment is not a problem in most areas of the land so if you can work then you support yourself .The safety net is there for those cannot if they accept it.
Good win for City (Leicester) yesterday we used to have a villa fan here Blue Coverman?

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

Maybe you don't understand JAS's point but don't dismiss it as dishonest because you lack the thinking ability to work it out.

Why should anyone accept any of the ideas Corbyn has put across? First of all they have been deemed unworkable by various Financial institutions, and secondly the type of political system that Corbyn is putting forward has never succeeded anywhere in the world at any time.

Ok clearly you never read my last post so I’ll repeat the basic gist of it. What The Labour Party is effectively proposing is a return to a Keynesian economic model and taking a deliberate step AWAY from unfettered free market neoliberalism. As for “never succeeded” I’ll reiterate the point....at the end of the war Britain was on its knees, national debt was over 264% of GDP. The Attlee govt invested (spent - for the stubbornnest of thinking neoliberals)  it’s way out of trouble. It created the NHS and embarked on a HUGE rebuilding program and properly dealt with the scourge of mass unemployment. Now after the Attlee govt, even the Conservatives at the time didn’t break the Keynesian model and right up to Wilson, the model worked for most people. The period 1945 - 1975 was a period of extraordinary transformation and prosperity in western democracies. So to say it has never worked is complete bunkum. Moreover, those that are desperately trying to discredit Labours proposals are the vested interests of neoliberalism (the haves, the greedy haves who would continue adinfinitum to trample on the faces of the poor until they’re pulled off). Unfortunately 30 years in to a Keynesian model (indeed most models) cracks begin to appear and in the case of the post war period these were not properly addressed, with near full employment the main downside is that labour has the whip hand over Capital, wage inflation can creep in and unless there are sound Industrial relations in place then the problem can escalate (which is obviously what happened and that is a key lesson that has to have been learned from that period.
What happened however is that instead of resolving capital/labour relations, western economies were sold neoliberalism (greed is good, no such thing as society, unemployment is a price worth paying) a world where capital will ALWAYS have the whip hand over labour and greed will freely triumph, and it has, and even when neoliberalism hit its 30 year nadir (the banking crisis) Capital rammed its head in the sand in the most remarkable display of denial in economic history and gave us austerity. So...in a nutshell, what is so very wrong with hitting the system reset button and going back to Keynesianism and try to deal with the issues it presents. In the U.K. industrial relations were the issue at the end of the 70s, yet look at the Germans, Europe’s economic powerhouse have the STRONGEST unions in Europe. So, it’s NOT unions that are the problem, it’s how they are negotiated with that we should be addressing.

Thanks JAS, for a thoughtful post (that's how it's done, Mac); you've nearly converted me - shame about Magic Grandad - but I'll be spoiling my ballot I think (I know; pathetic). Shame Labour can't seem to understand that this sort of clarity and justification is needed.

Agree with a lot of the above. Issue with Unions etc re. negotiations is critical and it's too often been an 'us and them' (from both sides) conversation.

[JAS]

Fully recognise that Corbyn is an issue but as I’ve said before principles are permanent, macroeconomic strategies are long term, leaders on the other hand are extremely transient in comparison, something that those voting on personality ground should perhaps consider (but for the fickleness of party membership we could be going into this election with Rory Stewart, Andy Burnham & Ed Davey, how different would that be?).

We are going to wake up on Friday morning having given mop hair a majority and with it the opportunity to buttshag millions more people than just Jennifer Arcuri.

Labour will enter a new bout of infighting a’la post Foot, the most likely outcome being the return of the more savvy of the brothers much to the disgust of the ideological left. They’ll have 5 years to sort themselves out, 5 years of Johnson will be crushing for the working class 10 would just be beyond bleak and unthinkable.

[McLaren]

Navy

Any chance you would vote green instead if spoiling your ballot paper?

[westisbest]

Guys at least it will all be over with in four more days.
What I would say is I would rather be living in this society now than 25 yeas ago.
50 years ago you had to scrape the ice off the inside of the windows and go to the corner phone box to make a phone call.
There will always be areas and sections of folk who have problems but unemployment is not  a problem in most areas of the land so if you can work then you support yourself .The safety net is there for those cannot if they accept it.
Good win for City (Leicester) yesterday we used to have a villa fan here Blue Coverman?

Great win for Leicester.
At 2-1 at half time I was hoping we could come back. That third goal was crucial.

For villa we need to take points off the teams around us, anything else is a bonus, like the point at OT.

It’s a shame for Leicester that Liverpool are a good bit ahead.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

Any chance you would vote green instead if spoiling your ballot paper?

That's possible. Certainly, having seen our LD candidate, he's lost my potential vote leaving possibly only a vote for Green. I'd be torn though; not sure how useful that could ever be and I'm far more angry about the scheisse that is our UK electoral and political system. That said, Greens do support changes to some form of PR - that might be enough on the day.

Update: just had a look at our Green candidate - as good as anything and better than most, if you believe the propaganda. Might just vote that way. Consider it your good deed for the day, Mac .

[BlueCoverman]

Good win for City (Leicester) yesterday we used to have a villa fan here Blue Coverman?

No not me Dyna, I went to school in Colchester and have been a Col U fan (somebody has to!) since those days. A big game coming up for Man U on Wednesday week!...

[JAS]

“ I avidly read social media posts from a wide range of different opinions and I’m just waiting for that killer line that’ll just click everything into place for me and turn my political beliefs completely on their head” said nobody ever!!

Has anybody ever...on these forums or elsewhere read a post or an article that actually HAS made them change their vote?

[JAS]

Meanwhile on football, Russia banned from 2020 olympics and 2022 World Cup but NOT Euro 2020....wait for it...because uefa not recognised as a major organisation....WTAF??? So it’s ok to cheat in lesser competitions then....is that the message. High time the brown envelope brigade were effin  jailed!!

[McLaren]

Navy

Any chance you would vote green instead if spoiling your ballot paper?

That's possible. Certainly, having seen our LD candidate, he's lost my potential vote leaving possibly only a vote for Green. I'd be torn though; not sure how useful that could ever be and I'm far more angry about the scheisse that is our UK electoral and political system. That said, Greens do support changes to some form of PR - that might be enough on the day.

Update: just had a look at our Green candidate - as good as anything and better than most, if you believe the propaganda. Might just vote that way. Consider it your good deed for the day, Mac :OK:.

Navy

I really do think the Greens are a great protest vote, you don't offer any of the big parties any support, and it shows some level of support for reforms to the voting system as well as keeping the environmental agenda kind of in the mainstream. I find a lot of the Greens policies what Labours should be in terms of providing a fairer system, but without the corbyn crankiness attached to it.

[Roller_Coaster]

“ I avidly read social media posts from a wide range of different opinions and I’m just waiting for that killer line that’ll just click everything into place for me and turn my political beliefs completely on their head” said nobody ever!!

Has anybody ever...on these forums or elsewhere read a post or an article that actually HAS made them change their vote?

Possibly Navy, by that most eloquent and persuasive of posters, Mac, about 5 posts ago.

[navyblueshorts]

“ I avidly read social media posts from a wide range of different opinions and I’m just waiting for that killer line that’ll just click everything into place for me and turn my political beliefs completely on their head” said nobody ever!!

Has anybody ever...on these forums or elsewhere read a post or an article that actually HAS made them change their vote?

Yep. Occasionally. Not often though, I have to admit.

[navyblueshorts]

Meanwhile on football, Russia banned from 2020 olympics and 2022 World Cup but NOT Euro 2020....wait for it...because uefa not recognised as a major organisation....WTAF??? So it’s ok to cheat in lesser competitions  then....is that the message. High time the brown envelope brigade were effin  jailed!!

Agree. Why are we surprised though? A good standards test when looking at any organisation - is its HQ in Switzerland? If yes, think corruption.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

Any chance you would vote green instead if spoiling your ballot paper?

That's possible. Certainly, having seen our LD candidate, he's lost my potential vote leaving possibly only a vote for Green. I'd be torn though; not sure how useful that could ever be and I'm far more angry about the scheisse that is our UK electoral and political system. That said, Greens do support changes to some form of PR - that might be enough on the day.

Update: just had a look at our Green candidate - as good as anything and better than most, if you believe the propaganda. Might just vote that way. Consider it your good deed for the day, Mac .

Navy

I really do think the Greens are a great protest vote, you don't offer any of the big parties any support, and it shows some level of support for reforms to the voting system as well as keeping the environmental agenda kind of in the mainstream. I find a lot of the Greens policies what Labours should be in terms of providing a fairer system, but without the corbyn crankiness attached to it.

Yep. Might go for it - depends how cranky I feel when I step into the booth on Thurs. That said, I could almost go Labour - who knows, it might be Utopia but, if not, they're done for a generation. If I'd been tempted by Johnson before, today's scheisse re. the mobile phone confiscation and his comments on the BBC really do put the icing on the turd that is BoJo. What a pickle we're all in....

[super_realist]

Navy

Any chance you would vote green instead if spoiling your ballot paper?

That's possible. Certainly, having seen our LD candidate, he's lost my potential vote leaving possibly only a vote for Green. I'd be torn though; not sure how useful that could ever be and I'm far more angry about the scheisse that is our UK electoral and political system. That said, Greens do support changes to some form of PR - that might be enough on the day.

Update: just had a look at our Green candidate - as good as anything and better than most, if you believe the propaganda. Might just vote that way. Consider it your good deed for the day, Mac .

Navy

I really do think the Greens are a great protest vote, you don't offer any of the big parties any support, and it shows some level of support for reforms to the voting system as well as keeping the environmental agenda kind of in the mainstream. I find a lot of the Greens policies what Labours should be in terms of providing a fairer system, but without the corbyn crankiness attached to it.

The Green Party are pointless. Every party now has a green agenda, so what's the point of the Greens? Pretty much just like The Brexit Party.

[super_realist]

Navy

Maybe you don't understand JAS's point but don't dismiss it as dishonest because you lack the thinking ability to work it out.

Why should anyone accept any of the ideas Corbyn has put across? First of all they have been deemed unworkable by various Financial institutions, and secondly the type of political system that Corbyn is putting forward has never succeeded anywhere in the world at any time.

Ok clearly you never read my last post so I’ll repeat the basic gist of it. What The Labour Party is effectively proposing is a return to a Keynesian economic model and taking a deliberate step AWAY from unfettered free market neoliberalism. As for “never succeeded” I’ll reiterate the point....at the end of the war Britain was on its knees, national debt was over 264% of GDP. The Attlee govt invested (spent - for the stubbornnest of thinking neoliberals)  it’s way out of trouble. It created the NHS and embarked on a HUGE rebuilding program and properly dealt with the scourge of mass unemployment. Now after the Attlee govt, even the Conservatives at the time didn’t break the Keynesian model and right up to Wilson, the model worked for most people. The period 1945 - 1975 was a period of extraordinary transformation and prosperity in western democracies. So to say it has never worked is complete bunkum. Moreover, those that are desperately trying to discredit Labours proposals are the vested interests of neoliberalism (the haves, the greedy haves who would continue adinfinitum to trample on the faces of the poor until they’re pulled off). Unfortunately 30 years in to a Keynesian model (indeed most models) cracks begin to appear and in the case of the post war period these were not properly addressed, with near full employment the main downside is that labour has the whip hand over Capital, wage inflation can creep in and unless there are sound Industrial relations in place then the problem can escalate (which is obviously what happened and that is a key lesson that has to have been learned from that period.
What happened however is that instead of resolving capital/labour relations, western economies were sold neoliberalism (greed is good, no such thing as society, unemployment is a price worth paying) a world where capital will ALWAYS have the whip hand over labour and greed will freely triumph, and it has, and even when neoliberalism hit its 30 year nadir (the banking crisis) Capital rammed its head in the sand in the most remarkable display of denial in economic history and gave us austerity. So...in a nutshell, what is so very wrong with hitting the system reset button and going back to Keynesianism and try to deal with the issues it presents. In the U.K. industrial relations were the issue at the end of the 70s, yet look at the Germans, Europe’s economic powerhouse have the STRONGEST unions in Europe. So, it’s NOT unions that are the problem, it’s how they are negotiated with that we should be addressing.

I wasn't asking you, I was asking Mac.

What is wrong with hitting the reset button? eh British Gas, British Steel, British Leyland, British Rail, British Coal...……..

[beninho]

Another great day for the tories. Johnson cant even look at a video of a sick child in the floor of a hospiital due to the failings of the nhs.

Soneone makes up stories about an advisor being punched by labour activists, he wasn't.

Anyway, I'll vote labour. Im a genuine liberal, but I'll vote for second biggest in the constituency.

[super_realist]

Another great day for the tories. Johnson cant even look at a video of a sick child in the floor of a hospiital due to the failings of the nhs.

Soneone makes up stories about an advisor being punched by labour activists, he wasn't.

Anyway, I'll vote labour. Im a genuine liberal, but I'll vote for second biggest in the constituency.

Id forgotten how great the NHS was under Labour

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