Scotland 6 Nations Thread

[Highland Shaun]

First topic message reminder :

With the 6N fast approaching, I thought I'd be the first to start a thread for it, my team being Scotland because its my nationality lol.

First of all, we know that Danny Wilson won't be coaching as he's off to coach Glasgow plus there are rumours of Matt Taylor the assistant going with Rennie to Australia so that leaves a couple of vacancies available, hopefully after the 6N, the main head coach one will be available too, which I would suspect Richard Cockerill would be the outright fav for, but that's a topic for after the 6N.

So, who would you like to see be in our 6N squad, are there any new caps that are likely, are there any players possibly getting recalls or would we likely see any younger players get a shot.

This is the place to discuss so go ahead .

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51435168

The Tom English take, very good as always

The one, entirely reasonable, question that people ask is how on earth did it get to this? How was this allowed to snowball for more than a year? Townsend is a coach but he's also a manager and managers are there to manage people as much as game plans. This situation has not been managed. There's been a colossal failing along the line.

All players are not the same. Some need kid gloves and some need a big stick. Some need a cuddle and some need a kick. A few sources within the squad environment say that they were not surprised when the news broke of Russell's exit. They could see it coming.

If they could see it, then why didn't the Scotland management do anything - or do more - to head it off at the pass? Russell's concerns might be absolutely on the money or they might be a touch of the diva at play, but regardless, the situation needed managing - and it wasn't. And now it looks to be too late.

Exactly what I was getting at earlier, total failure of basic people management. People have been saying that Vern would never have stood for this behaviour, but that is irrelevant because the situation would not have arisen under him; he knows how to manage people. Likewise, people saying will Gregor’s successor want to recall someone who may challenge them. Frankly, having read Finn’s explanation if I was a coach with any kind of confidence in my ability to manage players I’d have no hesitation in bringing him back. If I knew I was expecting to lay down the law and ‘manage’ by numbers then I wouldn’t. Given the culture in the SRU the latter is all we can hope for in any successor to Gregor. That’s assuming they don’t just wait for Gregor to pick up the wooden spoon then hand him a 6 year contract extension because Dodson likes the foot massages he gives him

[tigertattie]

Italy looking a much better team this week.

Playing better than we are. Could be a more difficult game next week than many thought

[RDW]

Italy definitely looking dangerous in attack. We're going to have to score tries!

[BigGee]

Italy looking a much better team this week.

Playing better than we are. Could be a more difficult game next week than many thought

They have played some nice patterns but have been well beaten at the end of the day, France have only played in fits and starts as well.

They are dangerous though and can score tries but struggle to manage the game. It won't be a pushover as they will see playing us as the game they can win. We will need to be on our game.

France look eminently beatable as well, a very disjointed game from them, despite the score.

[SecretFly]

We're all beatable - as England and Wales now know too.  But I think that French side were very comfortable and had other gears they'd reserve for better sides.  
Wales might have the guile and experience to get a victory but they (France) have now a guy who knows Welsh players inside out. They'll be more ready than in recent times.

[BigGee]

We're all beatable - as England and Wales now know too.  But I think that French side were very comfortable and had other gears they'd reserve for better sides.  
Wales might have the guile and experience to get a victory but they've now a guy who knows Welsh players inside out, they'll be more ready than in recent times.

Agree France switched on and off when they needed to in that game and largely lost interest once they had the BP. A better team than Italy may well punish them for that though. I still want to see what their self belief is like away from home, the cauldron at the Principality is definitely going to test that self belief.

[BigGee]

Just scanning through my twitter feed and I see Finn is out there liking tweets that are in support of him.

If he genuinely wanted any reconciliation of this, then he would be well advised to just steer clear of all that. I won't be the only person to have noticed that.

It really does look like it is done!

[NeilyBroon]

Farcical.

It should not have reached this point, agree with Tom English.

[bsando]

None of this is going to settle down until either Finn returns and makes peace/compromises or Townsend leaves/is forced to leave.

Italy looked great at times today and I am nervous. Their second row pairing of Budd and Cannone worked really well and the entire backrow carried very well. Their lineouts look much better than ours and Minozzi was all over the place in attack. Could be a really tight game or a comfortable win for Italy considering how many mistakes Scotland are making at the moment.

[tigertattie]

The good thing with Italy is I’ve never seen them put good performances in back to back. They seem to put all their effort into a game and have nothing left for the next or the players almost relax and think they’ve finally cracked how to play at this level

With any luck they go back to being knickers when we come to town

[TJ]

Townsend is obviously a very good coach.

Really? Took over at Scotstoun and after his first year watched them slide. took over at Murrayfeild and after the first year watched them slide

I see nothing to give him any proper coaching credentials nor any honesty. If he was honest he would have quit after the WC

[BigGee]

The good thing with Italy is I’ve never seen them put good performances in back to back. They seem to put all their effort into a game and have nothing left for the next or the players almost relax and think they’ve finally cracked how to play at this level

With any luck they go back to being knickers when we come to town

I wish I was as confident as you. I was there 2 years ago and boy did we get out of jail.

With Italy you have got to put them out of the game early. If you let them stay in the game, they start to believe and that can come back to bite you. France were really never in trouble in that game today, the scoreboard was always their friend and they always could score when they needed to. That is what we need to do, get in front and stay in front.

I am doing to be there again, hopefully easier on the nerves than last time. Mind you with my Italian wife and dual national children, I am going to have to run with it whatever the score! I won't be allowed the luxury of a sulk if we lose and we have got a very good restaurant booked for the Saturday evening!

[123456789.]

Townsend is obviously a very good coach.

Really?  Took over at Scotstoun and after his first year watched them slide.  took over at Murrayfeild and after the first year watched them slide

I see nothing to give him any proper coaching credentials nor any honesty.  If he was honest he would have quit after the WC

Took over at Glasgow and got them to their first final in his first year, got them to the title in his second, broke out of their group in the Champions Cup in his third year. He took Glasgow to another level. That is beyond question. To say anything else is selective memory. Now there's so much more to it than simply him, I accept that. He had a better group of players to work with than any coach at a Scottish professional team has ever had before. So it's no coincidence that he produced a better result than any coach has done before.

However Townsend has unquestionably lost his way. The real worry for me, if Russell is being completely honest, is that it seems that Townsend seized upon the drink debacle and has used it to get rid of Russell in a fundamentally dishonest way. That suggests to me that he's been looking to get rid of Russell and now has the pretext to do so. That means he has gone into the bunker and he won't hear anything different from his way. That's a real worry because his way, more precisely the way he fell in love with in 2019, does not work. A more experienced coach would not be so susceptible to such blinkered thinking.

The greater worry is that increasingly it seems he is more concerned with his own career than Scottish rugby. In 2017 we were building nicely. From Cotter's arrival in 2014 we built year on year; 2015 we didn't win a game in the Six Nations, 2016 we beat France and Italy, 2017 we won three games for the first time in years. Townsend leveraged a good man out of a job for his own career progression. It would have been honourable to step aside in October. Now in 2020, Russell proved to be difficult for Townsend. He didn't have the guts to drop him. So as soon as he stepped out of line he's come in with an incredibly draconian response. This is the behaviour of a man more concerned for his career than for his country.

Russell is not perfect in this. In fact he is obviously incredibly immature. But it's Townsend's job to manage that. There's three actors in this; Dodson, Townsend and Russell. All of whom are inherently petty egomaniacs. Dodson can come out of this well if he takes the plunge and chops Townsend at the end of this Six Nations and go after Scott Robertson with the same passion he went for Cotter. Townsend could do himself a big favour if he steps down before too long. He is a good coach. But he needs to grow up too. If he were to go down to England, or France or elsewhere and take on experience and see new ways of doing it then we could see a much better coach come back in ten-fifteen years time.

[BigGee]

Townsend is obviously a very good coach.

Really?  Took over at Scotstoun and after his first year watched them slide.  took over at Murrayfeild and after the first year watched them slide

I see nothing to give him any proper coaching credentials nor any honesty.  If he was honest he would have quit after the WC

I am not sure what Glasgow team you were watching TJ?

By my recollection his first three seasons at Scotstoun went Semi Final, Final, then Champions. We got better and achieved more year on year and also eventually cracked European qualification as well.

It was not just about the fact that we did well and won stuff, it was also about the way we played, which was at times breath taking. It took Scottish rugby out of the doldrums and back into the spotlight, showing we could play exciting rugby again. After the stodge we had been served up by the professional and national teams in the 10-15 years prior to that. It was like we had suddenly reached the promised land.

Toonie has undoubtedly struggled with the national team and very arguably could have done with more and different experience prior to stepping up, but I don't see how you can doubt the coaching credentials at club level. He was by any reasonable criteria successful and could probably have picked his job had he not taken the Scotland role.

[BigGee]

Townsend is obviously a very good coach.

Really?  Took over at Scotstoun and after his first year watched them slide.  took over at Murrayfeild and after the first year watched them slide

I see nothing to give him any proper coaching credentials nor any honesty.  If he was honest he would have quit after the WC

Took over at Glasgow and got them to their first final in his first year, got them to the title in his second, broke out of their group in the Champions Cup in his third year. He took Glasgow to another level. That is beyond question. To say anything else is selective memory.  Now there's so much more to it than simply him, I accept that. He had a better group of players to work with than any coach at a Scottish professional team has ever had before. So it's no coincidence that he produced a better result than any coach has done before.

However Townsend has unquestionably lost his way. The real worry for me, if Russell is being completely honest, is that it seems that Townsend seized upon the drink debacle and has used it to get rid of Russell in a fundamentally dishonest way. That suggests to me that he's been looking to get rid of Russell and now has the pretext to do so. That means he has gone into the bunker and he won't hear anything different from his way. That's a real worry because his way, more precisely the way he fell in love with in 2019, does not work. A more experienced coach would not be so susceptible to such blinkered thinking.

The greater worry is that increasingly it seems he is more concerned with his own career than Scottish rugby. In 2017 we were building nicely. From Cotter's arrival in 2014 we built year on year; 2015 we didn't win a game in the Six Nations, 2016 we beat France and Italy, 2017 we won three games for the first time in years. Townsend leveraged a good man out of a job for his own career progression. It would have been honourable to step aside in October. Now in 2020, Russell proved to be difficult for Townsend. He didn't have the guts to drop him. So as soon as he stepped out of line he's come in with an incredibly draconian response. This is the behaviour of a man more concerned for his career than for his country.

Russell is not perfect in this. In fact he is obviously incredibly immature. But it's Townsend's job to manage that. There's three actors in this; Dodson, Townsend and Russell. All of whom are inherently petty egomaniacs. Dodson can come out of this well if he takes the plunge and chops Townsend at the end of this Six Nations and go after Scott Robertson with the same passion he went for Cotter. Townsend could do himself a big favour if he steps down before too long. He is a good coach. But he needs to grow up too. If he were to go down to England, or France or elsewhere and take on experience and see new ways of doing it then we could see a much better coach come back in ten-fifteen years time.

I suppose a lot of this comes down to whether you go along with the conspiracy or the co*k up theories of history.

In my view this goes along the co*k up line. I don't think this is about Toonie worrying about his own career. It is hard to see how failing with Scotland is going to help that.

I think this is more about the two of them not knowing how to handle each other. It also goes along the modern lines of sports management, when the stars on the pitch are generally paid more than the coaches supposedly managing them. You also introduce other factors such as agents, lawyers and whispering friends into the equation. You see it in football all the time and now it looks as if it starting to creep into rugby as well. When he was at Glasgow, it was not like Racing or any other team of Galatacios, no-one was really earning that much and most of them probably no more than the coach. That all changed when he went to racing on megabucks and probably without realising it, his attitude and expectations may have changed as well.

Toonie for his part, was brought up in an old school environment. Ever hear his tales of how French coaches dealt with him during his time playing down in France. I am sure that he does not use these guys as his role models, but sub consciously he probably feels he is due the respect that they got, even if through fear. Dealing with players like Finn, world superstars now is presenting him a challenge that he has not worked out yet as well.

I don't think either of them ever wanted to get into this situation. They did genuinely seem to have a much better relationship back in the Glasgow days. having got to where they are now though, neither of them seems to know the way out.

[TJ]

Fair enough chaps. ( on townsend at Glasgow)

[George Carlin]

Townsend is obviously a very good coach.

Really?  Took over at Scotstoun and after his first year watched them slide.  took over at Murrayfeild and after the first year watched them slide

I see nothing to give him any proper coaching credentials nor any honesty.  If he was honest he would have quit after the WC

Took over at Glasgow and got them to their first final in his first year, got them to the title in his second, broke out of their group in the Champions Cup in his third year. He took Glasgow to another level. That is beyond question. To say anything else is selective memory.  Now there's so much more to it than simply him, I accept that. He had a better group of players to work with than any coach at a Scottish professional team has ever had before. So it's no coincidence that he produced a better result than any coach has done before.

However Townsend has unquestionably lost his way. The real worry for me, if Russell is being completely honest, is that it seems that Townsend seized upon the drink debacle and has used it to get rid of Russell in a fundamentally dishonest way. That suggests to me that he's been looking to get rid of Russell and now has the pretext to do so. That means he has gone into the bunker and he won't hear anything different from his way. That's a real worry because his way, more precisely the way he fell in love with in 2019, does not work. A more experienced coach would not be so susceptible to such blinkered thinking.

The greater worry is that increasingly it seems he is more concerned with his own career than Scottish rugby. In 2017 we were building nicely. From Cotter's arrival in 2014 we built year on year; 2015 we didn't win a game in the Six Nations, 2016 we beat France and Italy, 2017 we won three games for the first time in years. Townsend leveraged a good man out of a job for his own career progression. It would have been honourable to step aside in October. Now in 2020, Russell proved to be difficult for Townsend. He didn't have the guts to drop him. So as soon as he stepped out of line he's come in with an incredibly draconian response. This is the behaviour of a man more concerned for his career than for his country.

Russell is not perfect in this. In fact he is obviously incredibly immature. But it's Townsend's job to manage that. There's three actors in this; Dodson, Townsend and Russell. All of whom are inherently petty egomaniacs. Dodson can come out of this well if he takes the plunge and chops Townsend at the end of this Six Nations and go after Scott Robertson with the same passion he went for Cotter. Townsend could do himself a big favour if he steps down before too long. He is a good coach. But he needs to grow up too. If he were to go down to England, or France or elsewhere and take on experience and see new ways of doing it then we could see a much better coach come back in ten-fifteen years time.

Agree entirely, Numbers.

The Sunday Times piece was devastating because it was unexpectedly understated. There's no bombast in there and even the Modern Major General of WUM, Stephen Jones, realised that he didn't need to curate the story any further. Russell's words were enough. It does rather scream 'millennial' to believe that despite the fact your country needs you, it is your time and effort to give as a professional athlete and if your fundamental problem with the coach is such that you don't believe in anything that they're doing, then you don't need to participate. However, on some level I respect valuing oneself in that way and let's remember that Finn didn't feck off to Vegas or do the rounds with the tabloid press. He went back to France and got back to work.

What if Toonie believed in racial segregation and didn't want to play South Africa or Fiji. What if the players didn't want to play for Townsend then on the basis of their strongly held beliefs that he was wrong? Is that really a million miles away from this? I'm being provocative intentionally but you understand the point.

With Townsend, I have always worried somewhat that his extensive academic reading about management, leadership and strategy would collide with the hard reality of managing people. That's what seems to have happened here. You need both skillsets to be an excellent coach and whilst you can only build up experience of being a leader of men over time, it helps if you aren't completely tone deaf to other people's concerns. What stands out a mile is the quote that Toonie doesn't treat his young charges like adults. Real kick in the crackers, that.

Also like the Tom English observation that nobody has a problem with a disciplinarian micromanager like Toonie or Schmidt if the team keeps winning like Schmidt's Ireland did. It's naïve to think that everyone loves their coach and their training environment but as everyone is noticing, the most damning thing by far is that this has gone on for a year without being resolved. I just cannot see Vern having been in the same position.

[NeilyBroon]

I dont think any of us do GC and thats the biggest frustration about all this, that it all stems back to what, I think the vast majority, thought was a big mistake by the SRU.

The worst part is even if Toonie leaves, which he should, we dont really have many viable alternatives. I feel Cockers would just create another situation and very much has his own limitations, and very few other coaches would want the job, not because of the team but because of the 'USSRU'. I imagine its not too dissimilar to certain career paths where some workplaces gain a reputation for the wrong reasons. The SRU have really not done themselves any favours.

[sensisball]

As long as Dodson remains as his silent partner Toonie will probably survive this season as long as we beat Italy ( certainly not guaranteed). Toonie has already provided "valid" excuses for our two losses. He will have similar excuses for losing to Wales and France. Dodson anointed Toonie for Glasgow and then Scotland. He didn't see fit to conduct a review ( other than a sham internal one) about our appalling world cup performance and will see no reason to disrupt the "excellent" progress Townsend is making against very good opposition.

[RDW]

The more I think about this the more I come to the conclusion there is no way back for Finn under Townsend. That was an utterly damming interview the likes of which you rarely see in sport never mind rugby. Townsend has been undermined and humiliated. This could risk losing the dressing room to use a football phrase.

Could we see Townsend take the drastic action and quit immediately because his job has become completely unworkable now? I would be sad if he did despite his shortcomings as a coach - he's hugely passionate about Scotland and clearly works incredibly hard. He's just channeled that in the wrong way. We'd also be in a total mess for the rest of the tournament.

Either way this absolutely needs resolved this week, not during a game week.

[EWT Spoons]

Tom English (I think) makes a valid point about this whole thing, what happens if Finn doesn't like/get on with the next coach?

I agree with RDW though, can't see a way back for Finn whilst Toonie's in charge.

[BigGee]

I was talking to one of my colleagues at work this morning who was at the match and was sharing with me its horrors and that of the journey home to London on sunday. I think she got the last train out of Edinburgh and it took about 10 hours to make the journey!

Her family hail from the borders and they are familly friends with a prominent ex international player, whoes opinion anyone would respect if they were to ask for it.

Interestingly his views on the Russell afair are very much along the lines of those of EWT in that he feels that FR is far from a popular player in the Scotland squad and the other players are not happy with him at all and particularly regarding the disruption he has caused to their preperations to this tournament.

FR actually approched this player for some advice on how to deal with the situation and he was advised very strongly that he was not popular within the squad and that he needed to make it up to his team mates and then he would be accepted back into the squad. He does not seem to have taken this advice.

[BigGee]

Hard to see any evidence that Toonie has lost the dressing room.

We made mistakes and did not win the first two matches, but there was no lack of effort or passion from players. It was better in fact than many of our recent matches.

I think until there is any evidence of a more wide spread dissatisfaction with him from the players, then there is a good argument that this is just FR being a prima dona.

If such malcontent is there, it will surely manifest itself in some shape or form in the not to distant future.

[RDW]

That's an interesting point Biggee. We all just assume he's a popular member of the squad given all his personality and Instagram posts etc, but thinking about it you only really see the likes of Ali Price and Greig with him - not a wide variety of players meeting up with him.

That includes Hogg who is now captain so doesn't take a big jump to assume he was the one that was telling Finn to stop.

[SecretFly]

Is he not popular because he's an asswhole or because there is a jealousy about him within the camp (i.e., gets too much of the positive print when things have been going well)?

It's becoming quite clear that the tensions between Russell and Others (be they certain coaches and/or players) is more long running than the drink incident AND that he views the drink incident as a culmination of bad blood heaped in his direction rather than some out-of-the-blue spark that was ignited purely by that incident.

But something else is true by way of the law of averages and that is that not All his team mates dislike him or disagree with his attitude/actions.  Life just doesn't work so clearly.  Some of the players who might agree with him are inevitably just remaining silent for a quiet life and obviously allowing some 'leader' group to be self designated deciders of 'squad opinions' divulged to the public.

[EWT Spoons]

Just to come back to a post of mine from a few days back, the person I know, would back up this point that he's not particularly popular calling him a 'total dick'.

I don't think Toonie has lost the dressing room as yet, but if he gives in to Finn there is a chance he could, unless Finn apologises to the squad, but I can't see that happening.

[bsando]

Steve Tandy talked of how close nit the squad were when he arrived and I think it's been obvious that Scotland have always had a good team camaraderie. The same goes for Glasgow and Edinburgh which is especially clear at Glasgow where DTH, Matuwalu and Nakarawa have all returned in differing circumstances. Russell has effectively given his team mates no choice but to band together and push forwards. I'm sure none of them would be upset to see him back but they can't allow his exclusion to be a distraction.

[RDW]

If he's alienated most of the team I can't see Finn coming back any time soon whether Toonie is coach or not!

[tigertattie]

I think there's still a bit of hopeful thinking from the fans here.

Many fans want Toonie gone. Many fans want Finn back. This is all very much a case of personal opinion and wanting to see the star player returned. This is then impacting on perceptions out there.

Look at the history here.

Finn is the only one saying Toonie's way is horrendous.
Finn still hasn’t said why he didn’t turn up to training on that Monday.
It's starting to be claimed that Finn has issues with drink.
Finn seems to have alienated himself from the rest of the team. His "banter" while humorous to us on the outside, doesn’t mean his teammates agree with his relaxed approach to rugby (they are professional sportsmen mind)

There’s still many baying for Toonies blood over this. Get rid of Toonie by all means, but get rid of him for the right reasons (our poor performances) and don’t use Finngate as the smoke screen.

The Finngate issue has been purely down to Finn, his walking away, his apparent lack of swallowing his pride and apologising to the team.

[bsando]

Getting back to the championship so far. 0 wins from 2, 0 tries in 160 minutes of rugby. When was it last this bad heading into round 3 of the 6N?

In 2010 Scotland nearly beat Wales away in a crazy game where Scotland essentially commit suicide as Wales came back. 2 tries scored by the end of Round 2. Final place, 5th.

in 2011 Scotland had scored 3 tries by the end of Round 2, all three against France away in Round 1. Final place, 5th.

In 2012 Laidlaw had scored 1 try for Scotland against Wales in round 2. Final place 6th.

2014 beats the current situation Scotland find themselves in! By this point in 2014 Scotland were 0 from 2 and had only scored 6 points against Ireland after being nilled at home to England. Considering Scott Johnson was running the show as interim coach as we waited for Cotter to arrive it was widely regarded as a year to forget.

In 2015 Scotland had scored 3 tries after Round 2, one against France away and two against Wales at home (I was at the match) in two very close games. Scotland had many good games in this 6N but the game against Italy at home was a disaster. Final place 6th

[R!skysports]

Getting back to the championship so far. 0 wins from 2, 0 tries in 160 minutes of rugby. When was it last this bad heading into round 3 of the 6N?

In 2010 Scotland nearly beat Wales away in a crazy game where Scotland essentially commit suicide as Wales came back. 2 tries scored by the end of Round 2. Final place, 5th.

in 2011 Scotland had scored 3 tries by the end of Round 2, all three against France away in Round 1. Final place, 5th.

In 2012 Laidlaw had scored 1 try for Scotland against Wales in round 2. Final place 6th.

2014 beats the current situation Scotland find themselves in! By this point in 2014 Scotland were 0 from 2 and had only scored 6 points against Ireland after being nilled at home to England. Considering Scott Johnson was running the show as interim coach as we waited for Cotter to arrive it was widely regarded as a year to forget.

In 2015 Scotland had scored 3 tries after Round 2, one against France away and two against Wales at home (I was at the match) in two very close games. Scotland had many good games in this 6N but the game against Italy at home was a disaster. Final place 6th

In fairness the second game can not be counted. It really should not have even be played.

We played well in the Ireland match, but got white line fever - so all this doom and gloom is a bit premature.

In fact, I think we have played with a passion i have not seen for a while with Scotland - lets see how the next 3 games, if we can beat Italy and one of Wales or France, - while playing with passion, then it is a low pass mark

On Finn- the more I hear the more I think good riddance.

I think people are bigging him up far too much. However great the last 40 mins against England were last year, the forst 40 were dire and the rest of the matches since have not been great - and while it is not just him, he is at the heart of a failing team - so however 'great' hid flashes are - he is not that great a player overall - hype aside

[tigertattie]

I think Finn has bought into his own hype.

He's coming across as billy big baws wanting to call the shots and for a team to be built around him. You can see how others in the sqaud are saying he's a tool.

He's in danger of being the next Caucau

[BigGee]

I saw on twitter this morning that he got a rousing appreciation from one Gavin Henson!

I am not sure that is a career path that he will want to follow, he should take note.

[jimbopip]

Russell visited a psychologist at Townsend’s behest the following day, which appears to be linked to the very clear SRU narrative that this whole issue revolves around his relationship with alcohol.
“The psychologist understood what I was saying about me going out once a week after a game. He said, ‘you’re not on the front of newspapers, you’re not overweight, you’re performing well’. He didn’t see any issue. I’d had pretty much the same conversation with Gregor on the Monday night, and he said, ‘there must be something deeper inside, something you’re not telling us yet.’ I’m like, ‘what do you want me to say for you to be satisfied, rather than listening to what I’m saying?’”

I think the extract above is pretty powerful stuff. Employers don't arrange visits to psychologists lightly; and Finn's version of the psychologists replies, while seeming positive, could be answers to "AM I overweight? Am I not performing well?Am I in the papers every week?" Alcoholics, especially high functioning ones, are expert at normalising their drinking. Is that what is going on here?
Finn's assertion that Toonie said, ‘there must be something deeper inside, something you’re not telling us yet.’ would suggest that Toonie thinks there is a problem which Finn is in denial about.

I can't see a way back for Finn too soon. If the SRU collude with his denials they will harm him in the long run and the squad in the short term. If he has to step back from rugby and re-asses his life choices then he will need all the time he needs.

As for Toonie...
Glass half full? we put in a very competitive performance in Dublin and lost narrowly.
We ran the World Cup finalists close in horrendous conditions on Saturday.
Glass half empty? We can't buy a win.

[SecretFly]

Christ...it really is becoming like a Big Brother Society.

How many Actual drinks over the limit was Finn Russell?  Was it one?  Was it many many more?

A coach doing the 'tell me about your childhood" stuff on a player he obviously has a tetchy relationship with to begin with.

It was supposedly an attempt to drink ONE more beer over a newly set limit that he wasn't personally informed about in advance.

Maybe Townsend thinks Russell needs to be forcefully placed in a mental home for further analysis?  How many fingers, Finn?  How many?

[R!skysports]

Christ...it really is becoming like a Big Brother Society.

How many Actual drinks over the limit was Finn Russell?  Was it one?  Was it many many more?

A coach doing the 'tell me about your childhood" stuff on a player he obviously has a tetchy relationship with to begin with.

It was supposedly an attempt to drink ONE more beer over a newly set limit that he wasn't personally informed about in advance.

Maybe Townsend thinks Russell needs to be forcefully placed in a mental home for further analysis?  How many fingers, Finn?  How many?

He also failed to turn up to training the next day then left the squad on his own accord

We seem to be bending over backwards to make excuses for him, just because he is talented -

[SecretFly]

He might have failed to turn up because he knew he was being presented with bizarre new zero tolerance rules, allegedly introduced by senior players without his senior input, and being asked weird questions by a coach about allegedly one drink attempted beyond new rules agreed dosage.

If I were innocent - and who here is going to declare Finn Russell an Alcoholic? - if I felt a full on new and improved, seemingly well prepared camp coolness towards me, if I had a coach claim to be some sort of medical psychology evaluator then I'd be quick pronto out of there too - in a dash.  And I might leave a loud 'F**k Off' in my wake too....

Seems moreso Townsend and possibly some players trying to scapegoat Russell for recent performances all the way back to the WC.  Russell was the weak link all along!   I'm not buying it though.

[NeilyBroon]

I think theres truth in both sides of the argument.

I think both are at fault. Toonie for poor man management, and Finn for having a public strop over it.

I do however still believe the environment Toonie has created is partly to blame. If we're talking about buying into your own hype, toonie is a big culprit, as big as Finn. Remember when he first started all the pundits were talking about how clever a coach he was. I think he also felt like a pretty clever boy for getting the self nominated Scotland gig. Only abject failure gets him to reconsider how he's doing things, like the world cup where he had nowhere to hide.

Finn may have an alcohol problem, he may also be a dick, but I think there's more to it than that. Also in your workplaces how many people do you see standing up and saying a manager is sh*t? It'll be in the background, and doesnt mean the players dont want to play well. Just because they show up doesnt mean they like the current situation coaching wise.

[123456789.]

Finn Russell is obviously a difficult character. Going to Racing has obviously gone to his head. His view of Townsend seems to be a mirror of Zebo's view of Schmidt. They both seem to view themselves as maverick messiahs here to save rugby from an inexorable slide into monotony. The difference being that Zebo, in the case of Ireland, is not the messiah he is actually barely even a naughty boy. He has only ever been half the player Stockdale is. Larmour has all of his attributes and seems not to have his ego.

I can see why the players have an issue with Russell. His laughing, joking style must grate with a group of hyper-competitive athletes. The best comparison is probably with Cipriani. Eddie Jones, Stuart Lancaster and Martin Johnson were able to ignore, probably, their best talent because they had Wilkinson, Ford and Farrell there instead. Townsend's job as the head coach of Scotland is to get the best out of a comparatively small pool of players. Russell is our most talented asset. Despite all of his flaws he obviously wants to play for Scotland. Townsend's job is to work around and through Russell's idiosyncrasies not exacerbate them. My way or the high way only works if the former has any long term viability. In Scotland it is difficult to see how alienating our best player will help work out in the long term.

[SecretFly]

Finn Russell is obviously a difficult character. Going to Racing has obviously gone to his head. His view of Townsend seems to be a mirror of Zebo's view of Schmidt. They both seem to view themselves as maverick messiahs here to save rugby from an inexorable slide into monotony. The difference being that Zebo, in the case of Ireland, is not the messiah he is actually barely even a naughty boy. He has only ever been half the player Stockdale is. Larmour has all of his attributes and seems not to have his ego.

I find myself being on Finn Russell's side in this here epic - although acknowledging I don't and probably can't know all the details - but that stuff there was good stuff

[EWT Spoons]

Johnny Gray to miss the rest of the 6n

At time of posting this, it just says through injury with more to follow

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51448863

[Hazel Sapling]

Johnny Gray to miss the rest of the 6n

At time of posting this, it just says through injury with more to follow

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51448863

Hopefully call-ups are on the way to Skinner and R Gray. For Italy, getting Craig onto the pitch may be a good idea

[R!skysports]

One thing I have been thinking in FinnGate -

Why has not one other player even hinted at any issues with Townsend, his tactics, management style or anything else at all. In fact, they have all been very supportive - before, during and after loses

We seem to have one voice dissenting, and as he is 'the maverick' we are now all saying that he is the one to believe....

[BigGee]

I am actually less worried about JG being out than i might have been previously.

It means that Skinner will get straight back in and we may also see Craig get a shot as well, which would be worthwhile.

I don't know what the score is with RG as to whether he is fit or not, but her certainly has not played for a few weeks. Maybe he will get a run out with Toulouse this weekend, but it may be to soon for him to come back into the squad.

I wonder why they are not saying what is the injury, they usually do. It may be that JG not given his permission for that to be released, I beleive that the players have to be in agreement for privacy reasons.


Edit - a hand injury apparently, he goes back to Glasgow for rehab

[RDW]

https://www.scottishrugby.org/news/update-from-gregor-townsend

[RDW]

Good statement from Townsend IMO. A good line at the end that either Finn needs to adept to how they run the environment or the entire environment needs to change, which isn't going to happen!

I think he's managed this very well and crucially leaves the door open.

[tigertattie]

https://www.scottishrugby.org/news/update-from-gregor-townsend

Ouch

For me they are saying Finn is the one palyer with an issue around the team rules and he can come back if he accepts these rules but Finn doesnt want to accept them.

We're no further forward. Finn says Toonie is a control freak that wont let Finn play his style. Toonie says Finn has a disicipline issue and wont follow the same rules as everyone else.

[jimbopip]

Toonie has this to say about the world cup,

We clearly didn’t perform on the field as well as we had planned and, off the field, felt certain standards of behaviour had slipped at times.
and,

"Our team leaders made the decision there would be no drinking after our opening match of the Six Nations and they have been working closely with me on improving other aspects of our environment.

then,

"Finn left camp on the Sunday night because of a disagreement over alcohol with fellow players and chose to miss the following day’s (Monday) training and meetings. I arranged to meet with him that evening. It was a really positive meeting where we talked openly about life, rugby and what it means to play for Scotland.

"I left that meeting, after almost three hours, really optimistic that Finn would play a major part in our environment and be a committed team member. Unfortunately, things have not unfolded as well as we would have hoped.

leading up to,

"The door will be open to any player with the required level of ability – if they commit to being a trusted member of the team. It’s been made clear that Finn could be a part of that future. However, he stated at the weekend that everything else has to change for him to come back, rather than accept and adhere to the standards currently being lived by the group

To paraphrase Colonel Kilgore, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning, it smells of....of....Finn Russell burning his bridges."

[R!skysports]

Telling that almost no player has come in to support Finn from the squad or even around the group - even really in passing

More this plays out I think it seems Finn in in the wrong

[EWT Spoons]

Whilst it's a good statement, it is getting embarrassing for all parties that this is constantly being done in public. Surely it would make far more sense for them to talk to each other, rather than putting statements out in the media.

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