Scotland 6 Nations Thread

by Highland Shaun Sun 01 Dec 2019, 11:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

With the 6N fast approaching, I thought I'd be the first to start a thread for it, my team being Scotland because its my nationality lol.

First of all, we know that Danny Wilson won't be coaching as he's off to coach Glasgow plus there are rumours of Matt Taylor the assistant going with Rennie to Australia so that leaves a couple of vacancies available, hopefully after the 6N, the main head coach one will be available too, which I would suspect Richard Cockerill would be the outright fav for, but that's a topic for after the 6N.

So, who would you like to see be in our 6N squad, are there any new caps that are likely, are there any players possibly getting recalls or would we likely see any younger players get a shot.

This is the place to discuss so go ahead

.

by 123456789. Mon 02 Mar 2020, 2:41 pm

bsando wrote:yeah I agree Broony, his attitude and demeanour looks off at Glasgow. When you compare his highlights at Stormers and Western Province to the way he plays now he looks like a completely different player. It is hard to swap from the dry, running rugby of the SH to the, well, you've seen some of the recent Pro14 games.. I actually think he'd be better suited in France at somewhere like Racing, Toulouse or Clermont etc, but that would be a big call and risk his international career further.

France is definitely a sink or swim environment. For every player we've seen go to France and thrive, you see another struggle and, ultimately, disappear. Johnnie Beattie only retired in January. Scott Murray's career tailed off in France. Jones burning his bridges in Glasgow and going abroad could go very wrong quite quickly. If he doesn't pick up his old form rapidly then the clubs have no obligation and will be unlikely to renew his contract. He's contracted at Glasgow until 2021 anyway and I suspect his intention has always been to leave at the end of this contract. He'll be 27 by then and on track for his last big pay out. The dream would be if we could get him shipped off to Racing to play with Russell full time in the indoor stadium but with Vakatawa there it seems unlikely.

by **NeilyBroon** Mon 02 Mar 2020, 3:12 pm

123456789. wrote:
bsando wrote:yeah I agree Broony, his attitude and demeanour looks off at Glasgow. When you compare his highlights at Stormers and Western Province to the way he plays now he looks like a completely different player. It is hard to swap from the dry, running rugby of the SH to the, well, you've seen some of the recent Pro14 games.. I actually think he'd be better suited in France at somewhere like Racing, Toulouse or Clermont etc, but that would be a big call and risk his international career further.

France is definitely a sink or swim environment. For every player we've seen go to France and thrive, you see another struggle and, ultimately, disappear. Johnnie Beattie only retired in January. Scott Murray's career tailed off in France. Jones burning his bridges in Glasgow and going abroad could go very wrong quite quickly. If he doesn't pick up his old form rapidly then the clubs have no obligation and will be unlikely to renew his contract. He's contracted at Glasgow until 2021 anyway and I suspect his intention has always been to leave at the end of this contract. He'll be 27 by then and on track for his last big pay out. The dream would be if we could get him shipped off to Racing to play with Russell full time in the indoor stadium but with Vakatawa there it seems unlikely.

To be fair, Beattie's first seasons at Montpellier were superb, he just never showed up for Scotland after 2010, all the more shame really as I wouldn't say he sank in France, he seemed to have a half decent career out there.

Scott Murray was nearing retirement as I remember anyway, that was when Big Jim was just beginning to lumber about and Kellock was inspecting rucks and giving leadership advice. Not many Scotland players have gone to France but you look at the big examples like Laidlaw, Cusiter, Blair, Russell you can hardly say it negatively impacted them, even Dunbar who had a really torrid couple of seasons at Glasgow is now back to enjoying regular rugby with Brive and by most accounts doing a decent job of it. If we had a selection policy like some countries then it'd be a different matter, I think the Top14 would be a good place to reinvigorate Jones, give him some time behind a decent pack with a mixture of international players I think he'd really benefit from the experience. Equally true of the English Premiership. The only disadvantage is the lack of control over rest periods but we can't afford the luxury of keeping players who would benefit from moving.

by 123456789. Mon 02 Mar 2020, 4:04 pm

I've always been confused by Johnnie Beattie, in that 2010 season the Home Nations Number 8s were Heaslip, Jones, Easter and Beattie. In that one season Beattie outshone them all and it seemed he would have been a shoo-in for the Lions had they been that summer. I always assumed he had some attitude issues but listening to him speak with Haskell and Tindall for a podcast he seemed by far the most switched on of all of them.

by **RDW** Mon 02 Mar 2020, 6:32 pm

Just watched the Glasgow highlights. They were absolutely pumped but Kyle steyn scored an incredible try.

I'd love to see him given his chance with Scotland - he's the perfect mix of power and pace we've not really got in the backs. I still think he's a better 13 but is doing the job on the wing just now.

by bsando Tue 03 Mar 2020, 8:31 am

Yeah that is why I'm dreaming of him and DVDM lining up on the wings at some point this year. Both powerful and athletic players.

by bsando Tue 03 Mar 2020, 8:47 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51709246

Tom English with another good piece on Russell, discussing the Lions. To be honest, bar a fantastic showing for Scotland this Summer (assuming he plays!), I can't see Gatland selecting Russell. I think he'll pick Ford, Farrell, Biggar and/or Anscombe (Both of which he know's quite well obviously). I hate to say it, but Russell seems to be heading down a similar path to Cipriani and his only saving grace is that he is Scottish and won't have the same level of competition to keep him out of a Scotland shirt in the future. So I'm sure we'll see him play for Scotland again but will he ever play for the Lions? I really doubt it.

He has picked a good time to have a prima donna moment though. This time next year would have been awful timing. At least now Russell can work his way back into the squad and rebuild some trust (if he chooses to).

by Guest Tue 03 Mar 2020, 8:55 am

123456789. wrote:I've always been confused by Johnnie Beattie, in that 2010 season the Home Nations Number 8s were Heaslip, Jones, Easter and Beattie. In that one season Beattie outshone them all and it seemed he would have been a shoo-in for the Lions had they been that summer. I always assumed he had some attitude issues but listening to him speak with Haskell and Tindall for a podcast he seemed by far the most switched on of all of them.

I listened to that and thought he came across as lacking in confidence. Which is understandable given the setting, but even around Haskell for instance. Psychology is huge in taking advantage of those upswings in sport. He wouldn't be the first player to fail to capitalise on his potential without crashing and burning. He definitely had all the attributes for a modern day great for Scotland. I also wonder how much the players who grew up with that amateur tradition of drinking and enjoying the social side resented how much tougher the sport became year on year. France seems like the place players go if they're wanting a step back in to that amateurish lifestyle while enjoying a good salary at the same time. It's hard to argue with that either. For players raised through the academy system you'd expect less of that from now on but Beattie seemed to be a player caught up in that change in rugby about a decade ago. Just look at Denton for what players were asked to do in the name of standards. Is it worth it? Who knows.

by **RDW** Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:07 am

I know someone who went to school with Beattie who said he was an outstanding player back then but didn't have the attitude and work rate of others. Obviously that was at school rugby and things could have been very different as a Pro

He still had a good career though - one that many players would have been happy with. It just could have been so much more!

by EWT Spoons Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:21 am

Beattie's chat with the thistle rugby pod lads was fairly interesting. Don't normally recommend their pod, but that was worth a listen.

by bsando Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:27 am

The guy who does the Edinburgh podcast, Allan Nash is his name I think, did his own podcast with Beattie not long ago which I found very interesting. It's always hard to know what really goes on in players minds from regular journalism and interviews. The players rightly all just say the PC statements that won't cause them any bother. My take from that podcast though was that Beattie was actually pretty switched on and did very well at Bayonne as a leader and integrated with French culture very well. He said he didn't stick with just the English speaking players and used to eat lunch with the French academy players to learn the language and encourage them. He went into a lot of detail about the French system (or lack of when he first arrived as a player) as well and how him and himself and others were probably the last generation of foreign "journeyman" players to come through as France have begun to put more faith on home grown talent at club level.

by bsando Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:31 am

There's a good Nashy podcast with Denton too, well worth a listen. I always wondered why Denton signed with Bath and played so badly during that time. He explains that all in a lot of detail as well as how "that" Scotland vs England match was a defining moment and he was playing his best rugby in 2015 during the RWC.

by **BigGee** Tue 03 Mar 2020, 10:25 am

https://www.606v2.com/t69478-scotland-v-france-sunday-8th-march-2020#3893064

Time for a match thread!

by **RDW** Tue 03 Mar 2020, 10:23 pm

So turns out Finn dialing into the coaches call to give tips on France didn't apparently happen as there was a 'problem over timings' on behalf of the coaches.

No idea what that means but I really hope it's not a Scottish rugby screw up given how delicate the situation is.

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 04 Mar 2020, 11:14 am

Tbf very easy to over read into that.

Things will become clearer this summer, I think Finn has reluctantly realised the Anointed One is to stay until further notice due to us not being completely pasted (oh how our standards have regressed!), I reckon even if we lose the last two games he'll still be around. Finn cares too much about Scotland to pack it in for the sake of a coach he doesnt agree with IMO. If hes not on the boat this summer then thats something we can very much read into.

by **RDW** Wed 04 Mar 2020, 11:21 am

It's just strangely worded from Wilson which made me think that it's a political/PR response.

I really hope I'm over reading into it though and it's not a screw up.

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 04 Mar 2020, 11:32 am

RDW wrote:It's just strangely worded from Wilson which made me think that it's a political/PR response.

I really hope I'm over reading into it though and it's not a screw up.

To be fair even for the most mundane news the SRU press releases often read like a North Korean newspaper.

Bizarre to say the least.

#AsOne

by 123456789. Wed 04 Mar 2020, 12:21 pm

It’s easy to assume the worst with the SRU.
My assumption is that Townsend forgot that Finn was on call to him when he started slagging him off in front of the rest of the squad.

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 04 Mar 2020, 12:24 pm

123456789. wrote:It’s easy to assume the worst with the SRU.
My assumption is that Townsend forgot that Finn was on call to him when he started slagging him off in front of the rest of the squad.

That or Finn had got on to his third beer of the video conference.

by demosthenes Wed 04 Mar 2020, 12:56 pm

RDW wrote:So turns out Finn dialing into the coaches call to give tips on France didn't apparently happen as there was a 'problem over timings' on behalf of the coaches.

No idea what that means but I really hope it's not a Scottish rugby screw up given how delicate the situation is.

Did someone forget that Finn is back in France in a different time zone?

by **BigGee** Wed 04 Mar 2020, 1:58 pm

https://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2020/03/things-could-be-worse/

A bit of perspective from the Scottish Rugby Blog!

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 04 Mar 2020, 2:16 pm

BigGee wrote:https://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2020/03/things-could-be-worse/

A bit of perspective from the Scottish Rugby Blog!

Good article but still drives me mad why nothing sticks to Toonie.

I get we don't want to keep changing coaches and chucking people out but he definitely gets away with his Scotland side producing a lot of guff - particularly in attack, the area that he coaches and funnily enough the area that has got steadily worse (we saw it at the WC too). If we're not firing him we need to at least hold him to account but for some reason there always seems to be something else like "oh Scotland have always been a bit hot and cold anyway" or "well we lost to teams ranked higher than us" even if we should have beaten them on the day.

...We were beginning to look more consistent not so long ago!

Lots to be positive about right enough but also lots to be very frustrated about!

by SecretFly Wed 04 Mar 2020, 3:06 pm

demosthenes wrote:
Did someone forget that Finn is back in France in a different time zone?

That man is always in a different time zone.

by 123456789. Wed 04 Mar 2020, 3:13 pm

The whole 'no God-given expectation' of beating teams has always frustrated me. Ireland were so poor for the first hundred years of the tournament that they still have the worst record in the tournament, Italy aside. They had something of a head-start to into professionalism because their traditional rugby structure turned out to be almost a seamless transition into the standard model for a medium-sized rugby nation. However the point remains, if Ireland had accepted their position based on recent history then they would not be where they are today.
We have a good team now. Hogg has been the form home nations full-back, when he's held the ball. Huw Jones is, on his day, the best finisher in his position in the Six Nations. Graham and Maitland are both very good wingers, Kinghorn is undoubtedly a talent. We have a balanced back-row that plays together at club level. We have a plethora of second-rows. Three solid tightheads. Two very good hookers. Finn Russell is, arguably, the best in the world at what he does. Now there's lots of caveats there, including individual personalities and performances. Ultimately, however, the job of a head coach is to get those players on the pitch, playing well and winning. Townsend has not done that for two years. McInally and Jones are off the boil, Russell is on the sauce and goodness knows where Richie Gray is.

by **BigGee** Wed 04 Mar 2020, 6:59 pm

Thistle Rugby Pod saying that FR did have the conference call with the Scotland coaches last night and was also joined by Johny Beattie. Seems they are really tapping into all the available knowledge about the French players.

This whole business is, unfortunately getting far to much coverage and is probably not helping the situation.

by tigertattie Wed 04 Mar 2020, 11:37 pm

He said she said. All a bit yawnnnnnnnn

Finn and the SRU need their heads bashed together and told to just sort their shoite out!

by 123456789. Thu 05 Mar 2020, 12:00 am

I’m already looking forward to the make-up conference in the summer. The SRU press operation will be firing in all its glory: “Finn Returns from Secret Highland Re-Education Retreat a much better player”. Or, more likely, “Mutually agreed reflection period can help Scotland record victories on tour’ says Finn Russell as him and his father attend the MacEwan’s factory to celebrate the Wise and Venerable one’s latest ingenious sponsorship coup.

by **NeilyBroon** Thu 05 Mar 2020, 9:49 am

123456789. wrote:I’m already looking forward to the make-up conference in the summer. The SRU press operation will be firing in all its glory: “Finn Returns from Secret Highland Re-Education Retreat a much better player”. Or, more likely, “Mutually agreed reflection period can help Scotland record victories on tour’ says Finn Russell as him and his father attend the MacEwan’s factory to celebrate the Wise and Venerable one’s latest ingenious sponsorship coup.

I'm just looking forward to the Mini Murrayfield branding. 'The Penguin

Study' seems appropriate or the 'OnePlus

his dog'

by Tramptastic Thu 05 Mar 2020, 10:09 am

Good news on the Murrayfield construction front, they have just signed off on the grouting of the old sewer line that runs underneath the stadium so there's actual works happening!

by bsando Thu 05 Mar 2020, 10:18 am

Most 606'ers are predicting a one score margin of victory to France on Sunday. If that is the outcome for Scotland and then again the the following week against Wales away, how will everyone feel about that? What are you hoping for and/or expecting from Scotland for these final two games?

I think England, Ireland and France will all obviously be aiming to win all their remaining fixtures.

Wales will probably feel beating England is a tough but doable challenge. Then Scotland at home would be a must win if they go down to England away. I'm sure most Wales fans expect a win against Scotland.

Italian fans must just be hoping that they improve and show some better signs that their game plan is working.

by Tattie Scones RRN Thu 05 Mar 2020, 10:20 am

Still very weird that Scotland have a chance to win the Championship.

by bsando Thu 05 Mar 2020, 10:30 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Still very weird that Scotland have a chance to win the Championship.

Yeah I didn't realise that until the other day. Thank god for BP's! We could (and should be) ahead of wales on points had we got a try BP against Italy.

by Tattie Scones RRN Thu 05 Mar 2020, 10:46 am

It's easy really...

5 pointer against France on Sunday.
Put 50 on Wales the week after.

by Hazel Sapling Thu 05 Mar 2020, 11:10 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:It's easy really...

5 pointer against France on Sunday.
Put 50 on Wales the week after.

Easily

Not being too funny but beating France is a possibility. They beat Wales away in a tight game where they did the usual get a 15 point lead. If we are in touch at the half, the last 20 may favour Scotland.

Wales is going to be fun. They may not have a fit FH by the time we get to them. The scrum has not been doing so hot and they will be coming off an absolute war against England. Whatever spell Gatland placed on them will be wearing off.

There is probably a 10% chance of that scenario playing out. Losing is more likely.

Winning just one game would be a huge disappointment for Scotland. Our scrum has come on leaps and bounds with a front five that has largely delivered. The defence has improved, especially with mauls. The failure to attack effectively, the collapse in relations with our best FH and our continued mishandling of the outside centre spot (H Jones, Hutchinson) have been big negatives. Losing a by a score or less to England and Ireland (and say Wales and France as well) would be a gut punch that we are forever the bridesmaid and never the bride

by **NeilyBroon** Thu 05 Mar 2020, 11:38 am

Scott has featured a little in the skills video released from camp today. Could we see him return at least to the bench? It'd be nice to have him there after so long!

by **NeilyBroon** Thu 05 Mar 2020, 11:43 am

For fans to back Toonie I think the France game at home is a must-win and the Wales game is a should. We raised our standards 5 years ago and we should expect at least the same standards now.

If we win just one game again off the back of an awful 2019 and accept that as our expectation we will never progress beyond the early noughties. You may as well get a headstone engraved with "Scottish Rugby".

by Tattie Scones RRN Thu 05 Mar 2020, 11:47 am

France is very winnable. We've had their number at MF for the last couple of seasons. Will be tougher than normal as France seem to have got their sht together.

Wales though....I'm completely confused at this mental block we have against them. There is no way we should be losing regularly Wales...especially now.

I'd be massively disappointed (yet again) if we didn't win a week Saturday.

by **NeilyBroon** Thu 05 Mar 2020, 12:11 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:France is very winnable. We've had their number at MF for the last couple of seasons. Will be tougher than normal as France seem to have got their sht together.

Wales though....I'm completely confused at this mental block we have against them. There is no way we should be losing regularly Wales...especially now.

I'd be massively disappointed (yet again) if we didn't win a week Saturday.

Aye, that's why I've put the Wales as a "should", if it was at home it'd be a "must" but I'm acutely aware that every time we go to Wales we more often than not go down with a wimper, a good performance there is a minimum, if Wales play badly then a win becomes a "must". France, however, are beatable at Murrayfield agree with you there. The only acceptable circumstances of a defeat are being competitively outplayed whilst playing well ourselves. If we lose in the manner we have for the first two then that's not on. Likewise if we go to Wales and squander match winning opportunities multiple times like we did against Ireland, that would also be unacceptable.

I don't think we'll win against France though. I think it'll be a score in their favour and more aimless kicking and line battering with no support play with one obligatory try as a gimme from us.

by tigertattie Thu 05 Mar 2020, 1:05 pm

Have to disagree with "should win" with Wales

Make no mistake, Wales have gone a bit flaky with Pivac but they are still a more sucessful team we are (reaching the Semi Finals last year for exmaple)

With home advantage it "should" be Wales that win this game but Scotland "could" win it.

If Wales lose to Englnad at Twickers, it would not be unexpected but would smart, if they lose to Scotland in the Principality then it would be unexpected. If Wales end up below us in the 6Ns then Pivac may only get the summer and AIs to turn things around such is the level of Welsh expectations on thier team these days.

If Pivac does have a stinker of a 6Ns and then next year they finish 4th or 5th again, Pivac may be out the door.

by bsando Thu 05 Mar 2020, 1:47 pm

Yeah I think that was how I felt about Wales in 2010 after that close defeat in Cardiff (10 year anniversary incoming) but Wales went on to win a lot of 6N matches since then. Fortunes may change though, especially as Edinburgh begin to emulate Glasgow's success and build their new stadium. Scotland have had a few closely fought games with Wales since 2010 but Wales have largely controlled all those games apart from the 2017 match where Scotland grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck and took their chances. 2018, disaster. 2019, ineffective attack and too many set piece errors. God know's how 2020 will go, I'm sure we'll have a pretty good idea by Sunday evening though.

by **BigGee** Sun 08 Mar 2020, 6:47 pm

Well what can we take from that win?

1. Toonie's new style of play may be on to something. perhaps we should all stop calling for his head and get behind them now, It seems likely he will be our coach for the next WC cycle now.

2. Harris is not a bad rugby player. He is not Huw Jones (2017 vintage0 but neither is the 2020 version of Huw Jones!

3. Hastings is growing into the role of an international FH. He may never be an exciting nor instinctive player as FR, but he is beginning to prove himself in his own right. having more than one players in such a pivotal position can only be a good thing.

4. The old adage that defence wins games is true and we finally seem to have learnt that lesson!

by **RDW** Sun 08 Mar 2020, 7:09 pm

I missed the game - someone fancy doing some player ratings?

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