Lions tour 2021

First topic message reminder :

So, the dates are announced for the Lions schedule in 18 months:

Sat July 3rd 2021: Stormers v Lions, Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town
Wed July 7th: South Africa Invitational v Lions, NMB Stadium, Port Elizabeth
Sat July 10th: Sharks v Lions, Jonsson Kings Park, Durban
Wed July 14th: South Africa 'A' v Lions, Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
Sat July 17th: Bulls v Lions, Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria
Sat July 24th: T1 Springboks v Lions, FNB National Stadium, Johannesburg
Sat July 31st: T2 Springboks v Lions, Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town
Sat Aug 7th: T3: Springboks v Lions, Emirates Airline Park (Ellis Park), Johannesburg

So, eight matches, three tests - two of which are at altitude. Tough schedule.

I actually think Watson is England's best fullback, but agree that he'd be best on the right wing for the Lions, to allow Hogg, Larmour or Williams to play 15.

I don't see space for Daly on this tour.

Daly is a talented player with a huge boot...and serious pace. Personally he has suffered for being moved around to much. he should have focused on his best position and stayed there.
However....

On these tours (even more so if finance states a reduced squad number) you need versatile players like him. He can play centre, wing and fb.
Gatland will take him.

Wouldn’t he just take one of Slade or Daly?

I agree on the need for versatile players, but i think the back three is well covered with Williams, Larmour, Watson and Hogg (plus wing specialists like May, Adams, Stockdale and/or North). Both Williams and Watson also cover wing to a high standard. Assuming Gatland picks North, he's got a wing who can play centre, and in Farrell he's got a player equally comfortable at 10 and 12. Slade should also go, for me one of the best options at centre we have.

I just don't see a need for Daly, as we don't need cover at 15 or wing, and i don't think he's good enough at 13 at this level.

Well Daly wouldnt be in my England team if all were fit, so i do agree with you...but i just think things change with a lions selction.

Funnily enough im not sold on Slade yet. i think England have better 13's not in the squad such as Marchant etc I dont think he's hit the level we actually hoped he would, and has just become a solid average 13 not particularly outstanding at anything.

I see Slade as a complete player, who can be both strike runner and creator. I rate him very highly, and think England have a real player there. The trick though is to find the best combination, and i dont think Slade works with Farrell at centre as well as he does with Tuilagi, whereas I feel that Farrell is better at 12 with Ford at 10.

I've had my fill with daly now. World cup final just cemented it. Lacks bottle.

From a purely English perspective at outside center after Tuilagi there are two young prospects in Marchant and Lawrence.  Both Slade and Daly suffer from they versatility but I have always wondered why Slade was never tried at inside centre?

These players are in the frame for England but might not be in the match day squad for the Lions or even tour.

You need specialists, for the most part, only a couple of versatile players is necessary.

cb wrote:From a purely English perspective at outside center after Tuilagi there are two young prospects in Marchant and Lawrence.  Both Slade and Daly suffer from they versatility but I have always wondered why Slade was never tried at inside centre?

These players are in the frame for England but might not be in the match day squad for the Lions or even tour.

I thought that Slade would have been a perfect 12 - however I think he's only been capped once or twice there, mainly due to both Burgess (on his first cap) and the Ford-Farrell axis. He is a fantastically talented player. He's no slouch but his outright pace isn't that of a winger. I always forget that he's actually quite a big lump being 6ft 2 and around 14 stone. I wonder if both Lancaster and Jones wanted him trialed for his club at 13 as they possibly saw him as a back up for the often injured Tuilagi. Once the Burgess experiment had gone wrong, Jones opted for Ford and Farrell, so Slade's need to be a 12 was less relevant. I think he will tour, but probably won't make the test team unless injuries occur.

Slade should definately have focused on 12. Hugely missed opertunity there.

Marchant is a classy 13, and his stint in NZ should only help him. Lawrence looks a quality player. Runs some extremely inteligent lines etc but has the build of a mini Manu.

Certainly one to watch.

Hes landed on 13 more by accident. Steenson obviously well bedded at 10 and at the time for exeter they had Hill who I think was being pushed for england to consider by some (possibly by you was it gf?). By the time Hill faded out slade was well set at 13 and now has Devoto there. For england obviously farrell and ford gas meant chances are more available at 13 too. Slade has all the skill set more suited to 12 though. Alot of the time its about that lucky or unlucky injury which can change a career.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes landed on 13 more by accident. Steenson obviously well bedded at 10 and at the time for exeter they had Hill who I think was being pushed for england to consider by some (possibly by you was it gf?). By the time Hill faded out slade was well set at 13 and now has Devoto there. For england obviously farrell and ford gas meant chances are more available at 13 too. Slade has all the skill set more suited to 12 though. Alot of the time its about that lucky or unlucky injury which can change a career.

Yes at the time Slade was a 10 coming through, and HIll was a young upcoming 12 who looked a great prospect.

If the Lions Tour of 2021 is cancelled (or postponed), which looks increasingly likely, will SA still get the opportunity to host or will it just move onto Aus for the next one?

I can’t see any games taking place (outside of domestically) for at least a year.

I read somwhere it will just move on to SA in 2025

That would be fair enough. I wonder if we will still have the sport then as I can see many unions in a lot of trouble soon. I don’t see any way back for Australia, for example. They are finished as a Rugby Union nation.

Do you think so Cyril? Strong words...

Jeebus. They aren’t finished. They just need to sort themselves out.

Rugby in Oz will bounce back.

I also think the lions tour to SA will go ahead next year. We’re already seeing international cricket games being pencilled in for this summer so you can’t have one rule for one and another for everyone else unless your name is Cummings of course!

I think a vaccine for this virus will be available come Jan/Feb time which will be a massive help. We also cant just stop living because of one virus. Let’s not forge that regular seasonal flu kills around 600,000 each year and we've not stopped events because of that.

tigertattie wrote:Jeebus. They aren’t finished. They just need to sort themselves out.

Rugby in Oz will bounce back.

I also think the lions tour to SA will go ahead next year. We’re already seeing international cricket games being pencilled in for this summer so you can’t have one rule for one and another for everyone else unless your name is Cummings of course!

I think a vaccine for this virus will be available come Jan/Feb time which will be a massive help. We also cant just stop living because of one virus. Let’s not forge that regular seasonal flu kills around 600,000 each year and we've not stopped events because of that.

Rugby will survive in some form, whether the current format will is another issue. Not sure what happens when unions go bankrupt. Assume the clubs that are not owned by the union (aka not the Super rugby franchises) will form a new union to regulate the game.

It is more deadly than the flu, but I suspect rugby will return sooner without crowds. By mid-way of next year, you would hope we can figure out how to have people travel and sit in close proximity. I prefer the idea of a mini-World Cup next summer to generate some immediate revenue for a number of other nations and push the Lions tour by four years, but it is more likely than not we will have a Lions tour even if behind closed doors.

Hazel Sapling wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Jeebus. They aren’t finished. They just need to sort themselves out.

Rugby in Oz will bounce back.

I also think the lions tour to SA will go ahead next year. We’re already seeing international cricket games being pencilled in for this summer so you can’t have one rule for one and another for everyone else unless your name is Cummings of course!

I think a vaccine for this virus will be available come Jan/Feb time which will be a massive help. We also cant just stop living because of one virus. Let’s not forge that regular seasonal flu kills around 600,000 each year and we've not stopped events because of that.

Rugby will survive in some form, whether the current format will is another issue. Not sure what happens when unions go bankrupt. Assume the clubs that are not owned by the union (aka not the Super rugby franchises) will form a new union to regulate the game.

It is more deadly than the flu, but I suspect rugby will return sooner without crowds. By mid-way of next year, you would hope we can figure out how to have people travel and sit in close proximity. I prefer the idea of a mini-World Cup next summer to generate some immediate revenue for a number of other nations and push the Lions tour by four years, but it is more likely than not we will have a Lions tour even if behind closed doors.

The numbers of infected and deaths are consistent with any seasonal flu, so no it really isn't more deadly. The NRL in rugby league is starting to allow fans back next week. Given how governments across NA and Europe are happy for all these protests to go ahead now, there is no reason why this tour shouldn't go ahead with fans and all.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Jeebus. They aren’t finished. They just need to sort themselves out.

Rugby in Oz will bounce back.

I also think the lions tour to SA will go ahead next year. We’re already seeing international cricket games being pencilled in for this summer so you can’t have one rule for one and another for everyone else unless your name is Cummings of course!

I think a vaccine for this virus will be available come Jan/Feb time which will be a massive help. We also cant just stop living because of one virus. Let’s not forge that regular seasonal flu kills around 600,000 each year and we've not stopped events because of that.

Rugby will survive in some form, whether the current format will is another issue. Not sure what happens when unions go bankrupt. Assume the clubs that are not owned by the union (aka not the Super rugby franchises) will form a new union to regulate the game.

It is more deadly than the flu, but I suspect rugby will return sooner without crowds. By mid-way of next year, you would hope we can figure out how to have people travel and sit in close proximity. I prefer the idea of a mini-World Cup next summer to generate some immediate revenue for a number of other nations and push the Lions tour by four years, but it is more likely than not we will have a Lions tour even if behind closed doors.

The numbers of infected and deaths are consistent with any seasonal flu, so no it really isn't more deadly. The NRL in rugby league is starting to allow fans back next week. Given how governments across NA and Europe are happy for all these protests to go ahead now, there is no reason why this tour shouldn't go ahead with fans and all.

That's why the world shuts down for a few weeks around this time every year. Or maybe not.

lostinwales wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Jeebus. They aren’t finished. They just need to sort themselves out.

Rugby in Oz will bounce back.

I also think the lions tour to SA will go ahead next year. We’re already seeing international cricket games being pencilled in for this summer so you can’t have one rule for one and another for everyone else unless your name is Cummings of course!

I think a vaccine for this virus will be available come Jan/Feb time which will be a massive help. We also cant just stop living because of one virus. Let’s not forge that regular seasonal flu kills around 600,000 each year and we've not stopped events because of that.

Rugby will survive in some form, whether the current format will is another issue. Not sure what happens when unions go bankrupt. Assume the clubs that are not owned by the union (aka not the Super rugby franchises) will form a new union to regulate the game.

It is more deadly than the flu, but I suspect rugby will return sooner without crowds. By mid-way of next year, you would hope we can figure out how to have people travel and sit in close proximity. I prefer the idea of a mini-World Cup next summer to generate some immediate revenue for a number of other nations and push the Lions tour by four years, but it is more likely than not we will have a Lions tour even if behind closed doors.

The numbers of infected and deaths are consistent with any seasonal flu, so no it really isn't more deadly. The NRL in rugby league is starting to allow fans back next week. Given how governments across NA and Europe are happy for all these protests to go ahead now, there is no reason why this tour shouldn't go ahead with fans and all.

That's why the world shuts down for a few weeks around this time every year. Or maybe not.

Some countries (along with 8 states in america) didnt shut down at all and weren't revered by this supposed deadly virus.

Hmm this is more the cv 19 thread but clearly locking down late has cost a lot of lives in the uk. When the flu hits every year we dont lock down as we have a vaccine (best guesses as the flu is often a few strains hitting at once). Yes cv 19 is worse. That's not really up for debate. It's more nailed on than itoje starting the first test.

Death rate in the UK is 20% higher at the moment than the average over the last 5 years. The cause is either increased deaths from COVID or a people killing themselves having to read ignorant comments on here.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm this is more the cv 19 thread but clearly locking down late has cost a lot of lives in the uk. When the flu hits every year we dont lock down as we have a vaccine (best guesses as the flu is often a few strains hitting at once). Yes cv 19 is worse. That's not really up for debate. It's more nailed on than itoje starting the first test.

fair enough, lets keep it on topic. Would you have James Ryan partnering Itoje?

If everyone was fit and I was picking today: yes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Got me thinking who the biggest team we could put out, while keeping their positions.


Vunipola LCD(?) Furlong
Kruis toner
Hill SOB
Vunipola
Murray
Farrell cokanasiga McCloskey tuilagi north Mallider.
Sure I'm missing some obvious ones.

Two possible bolters from Saints, both been in and around the squad for a while and I think one capped and one played against the Barbarians, Moon and Painter, Moon around 20 st, Painter was topping 22 st last time I saw him play.

You would need some mobility as well, size isn’t everything

Both are mobile, Moon's weight is due to his height, being 2.03m and Painter is in the new mould of prop, mobile and a good ball handler but still very young for a prop at 22.

For that pick it was only size I was looking at! Wpildnt be my choice for next year. Good shout on the young uns WPI. 2 guys I have high hopes for. Will be interesting to see how Moon maintains momentum with Isiekwe coming in. Painter could be the guy at tight head in a year or 2 despite his age. Hopefully he doesnt fade as Hill did as for a brief period that guy looked to be the next big thing too.

Will Moon be pushing he way in to the England squad soon?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/53859614

Scott Robertson wants to join the Lions tour. Thoughts?

That will essentially mean a NH coach could miss out on touring but his credentials are fantastic. I would be a fan of seeing him tour if he were there to assist the NH coaches that will be touring. Putting him in as attack coach ahead of say Lancaster or Townsend may be a controversial decision.

Would it be a controversial decision? One of the best club head coaches in world rugby makes himself available it would be foolish not to take him up on the offer. Think what the players will learn working with him and what the NH coaches who go will learn from him. If you're a NH player and you hear your attack coach is going to be Robertson how psyched up are you going to be? The players will be desperate to get into camp.

The Crusaders have a devastating attacking game which seems to work heavily on work rate and giving the playmakers options of players running good lines. We can't go toe to toe with SA physically.

What we could do is insist he has a deputy attack coach and then take a young up and coming NH coach. Building ahead of future tours. I'd certainly not be concerned in anyway if Lancaster was left behind, he works well in the Leinster system but wasted the potential of a strong England team at a home world cup. Not sure many of the England players would be particularly enthused to work with him again, they all liked him as a person but his meetings about meetings were not well received.

I've been watching super rugby Aotearoa and Crusaders have been a class above the rest, so I know how much of an exciting prospect it would be to have him involved. I think my preference is he is in and around the Lions as the assistant to an Assistant coach rather than vice versa though. It is a NH touring party after all.

Super Rugby Aotearoa was a class above anything I've seen. The All Blacks will be healthy for years to come. Robertson going on the Lions tour is interesting, but what position will he take on? When you're working under Gats it's his way or the highway - that's the impression I've always had, but he gets the results sooner or later.

I imagine NZRU would be keen to see how the two work together in case they are considering having both of them coach the AB's in the cycle after Foster's. With that in mind it could be just what Robertson needs so to be considered for the next AB's head coach, assuming the Crusaders also continue to dominate under him.

We could have him as head coach and move gatland to forwards coach?

I imagine there'd be a number of issues with dropping Gats.

Yes, the Welsh squad would need to find something to do next summer and holiday prices are through the roof

BamBam wrote:Yes, the Welsh squad would need to find something to do next summer and holiday prices are through the roof

Let’s hope so, as COVID has already cancelled two holidays for me so far. What about yourself B, as you could do with getting out more on any given month?

Gats is still the right man for the job. He understands the Lions and what it takes to construct a successful tour. I share the scepticism with respect to a healthy Welsh representation, all coaches lean to what they know, but his record with the Lions is top notch. I have faith.

seems like a win-win

good for Lions players

good for Robertson who got overlooked for the ABs job and is probably viewing a Lions involvement as a way of auditioning for a big NH coaching opportunity.

could be perfect timing to take over from Jones

Yep Robertson is next Dragons coach. 4 years of success with us he gets offered the Wales job, before going back home to coach the ABs. After all isn’t it Wales where most of these guys cut their cloth?

mikey_dragon wrote:Yep Robertson is next Dragons coach. 4 years of success with us he gets offered the Wales job, before going back home to coach the ABs. After all isn’t it Wales where most of these guys cut their cloth?

Ha you may well be right. although it might dovetail well with the end of Eddie's tenure with England...

BBC have a bit of an update on the Scottish Union pushing Townsend for a support role this time around.

"Last time it was just a really difficult time, having just taken over the Scotland team, it probably wasn't appropriate.
"But we've had a conversation now that if Warren asks him to be part of the team then we wouldn't stand in his way."
Gatland had spoken of his desire to have Scottish representation on his coaching team to make the case for the inclusion of Scotland players.
Then Glasgow assistant Jason O'Halloran also rejected the chance to join the tour in 2017, and ultimately only two Scots made the initial squad.
Dodson does not feel past tensions between Scottish Rugby and the Lions would prevent Gatland extending another invitation to Townsend.
"Warren is a very practical man," Dodson said. "I'm sure he won't let the fact Gregor declined last time be a factor in his decision making.
"We haven't had anything like the number of Lions we would like to have had over the last three or four tours. But I think this comes down to us.
"I only want the guys to be selected if they're good enough and believe they are good enough. It will be interesting to see over the next 18 months or so how many of our guys put their hands up."

Still annoys me slightly on the line 'Gatland had spoken of his desire to have Scottish representation on his coaching team to make the case for the inclusion of Scotland players. '. I cannot understand why this would be required, Gatland took a long time off Wales duty to ensure he was fully aware of everyone's situations (2 cycles of Wales games each time I think) blaming a lack of prep and professionalism is surprising.

Probably because Scotland kept losing. They could get 6 players in this time around at least, more than they have in almost 20 years (now I feel old).

I don't get that either tbh mikey. I know that that sort of comment has been attributed to Gatland in the past but I can't remember if he's actually said it or if its just become folklore. there will be below average players in successful teams and very good ones in poor ones. This time around Scotland should have a good number of reps for a starting spot but comments about coaches having to push players to Gatland don't sit right. He's again having a good deal of time off now, he should know everything about all his choices come selection time.

With Farrell and Townsend both indicating they'd be interested in coaching positions on to of Robertson there are a lot of good coaches available.

Head coach - Gats
Defence coach - Farrell
Attack coach - Townsend or Robertson
Forwards coach - Borthwick
Scrum coach - Rowntree
Kicking coach - Jenkins or O'Gara
Breakdown coach - Warburton
S&C - Stridgeon
Medical - Robson

That would give Gats a lot of continuity from his previous tours with some much needed new voices on attack.

In NZ Rowntree and Borthwick shared the forwards coaching duties. I think Rowntree will be involved again but if Borthwick wasn't then there might be room for a specialist lineout coach such as Parling.

It is good Mark Dodson has backed Townsend as available to be a part of the Lions coaching team next year. In the same interview with Dodson the interviewer Andy Burke mentions that before the 2017 tour a coach had to pull out because they didn't have the backing of their union which caused some issues for Gatland apparently. So Gatland has that reassurance in regards to Townsend. I think Gatland will want to win first and foremost but he'll also want to sign off with a good tour of SA. Bringing Townsend onboard would go a long way to helping Scots fans feel their country is more involved with the tour.

I doubt Borthwick will tour this time round. He's going to have his hands full at Leicester. He's already got the Lions on his CV and I'd guess the England job is his long term aim so it's international assistance experience tick, Lions assistance experience tick and then club success as head coach not yet. If he brings Tigers back to the title then that will do far more for his future value.

Robertson would be worth significantly more to the Lions than Townsend. Gatland will not change his rugby mentality to Townsend's free flow type rugby. Robertson can adjust the way he organises his team running lines and giving playmakers options to the Gatland style. If Townsend goes instead it's pure politics. Then again I wouldn't bother taking Farrell either, one of the most overrated coaches in the game.