Wales - 2019/20 - Pivac, Grand Slams, and beyond - Post-RWC '19 and 2020 6Ns build up

First topic message reminder :

Wales' 2020 Six Nations Squad:

Forwards (21)

Rhys Carre (Saracens) (6 Caps)
Rob Evans (Scarlets) (36 Caps)
Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (22 Caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons) (29 Caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (9 Caps)
Ken Owens (Scarlets) (73 Caps)
Leon Brown (Dragons) (6 Caps)
WillGriff John (Sale) (*uncapped)
Dillon Lewis (Blues) (22 Caps)
Jake Ball (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Adam Beard (Ospreys) (20 Caps)
Seb Davies (Blues) (7 Caps)
Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (134 Caps) (CAPTAIN)
Will Rowlands (Wasps) (*uncapped)
Cory Hill (Dragons) (24 Caps)
Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (26 Caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (18 Caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Bath) (72 Caps)
Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (41 Caps)
Josh Navidi (Blues) (23 Caps)
Justin Tipuric (Osprey) (72 Caps)

Backs (17)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (51 Caps)
Rhys Webb (Toulon) (31 Caps)
Tomos Williams (Blues) (16 Caps)
Dan Biggar (Northampton) (79 Caps)
Owen Williams (Gloucester) (3 Caps)
Jarrod Evans (Blues) (3 Caps)
Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (25 Caps)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (*uncapped)
Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (22 Caps)
George North (Ospreys) (91 Caps)
Josh Adams (Blues) (21 Caps)
Owen Lane (Blues) (2 Caps)
Johnny McNicholl (Scarlets) (*uncapped)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester) (*uncapped)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers) (3 Caps)
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (85 Caps)
Liam Williams (Saracens) (62 Caps)

Steff Hughes had another great game for the Scarlets. Up to Scott Williams to keep him out of the Welsh team now I think.

Hi Miaow.

guestalt_physicality wrote:Hey Steff Hughes had another great game for the Scarlets. Up to Scott Williams to keep him out of the Welsh team now I think.

Christ 

Jason Harries is playing 13 for Cardiff RFC tonight

Great performance by Scott Williams in a dreadful Ospreys team yesterday. Nice kick assist for his try against the Dragons. Probably done enough to book his place alongside Hadleigh Parkes now, just needs to stay fit.

guestalt_physicality wrote:Great performance by Scott Williams in a dreadful Ospreys team yesterday. Nice kick assist for his try against the Dragons. Probably done enough to book his place alongside Hadleigh Parkes now, just needs to stay fit.

We are scraping the barrel a bit if we make that call. We have options.

So far Dixon, both Thomas’s, Hughes and Warren have all been as good, but fitter.

A few more games might see Scott as a cert but I would say he is in the mix and no more right now.

I think the way Pivac will see it is that Scott Williams is a 50+ cap international with clear class where the other options just aren't in the same league.

guestalt_physicality wrote:I think the way Pivac will see it is that Scott Williams is a 50+ cap international with clear class where the other options just aren't in the same league.

I would be surprised if anyone thought that with the lack of form Scott Williams has shown since he left the Scarlets.

I would think most fear his career is succumbing to the injuries taking toll on his current form.

Time to look at the many younger fitter options we have.

There was nothing great about Scott Williams' performance yesterday, same for George North. I wouldn't select either of them for Wales. North would be a waste of an opening unless you're going to trial him at 13 again. He's merely a shadow of what he could have been and I think it is best that Wales move on. Given that Eddie Jones supposedly called Rees-Zammit to try and tempt him into the England set-up I think we could see him get called up too. I don't think Tyler Morgan has done enough to be in either, so we're really scraping the barrel for 13's.

mikey_dragon wrote:There was nothing great about Scott Williams' performance yesterday, same for George North. I wouldn't select either of them for Wales. North would be a waste of an opening unless you're going to trial him at 13 again. He's merely a shadow of what he could have been and I think it is best that Wales move on. Given that Eddie Jones supposedly called Rees-Zammit to try and tempt him into the England set-up I think we could see him get called up too. I don't think Tyler Morgan has done enough to be in either, so we're really scraping the barrel for 13's.

Likewise Protheroe and Sheedy wales need to cap them before Jones tries to steal them.

Yeah he's a ba**ard that Jones.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah he's a ba**ard that Jones.

You can understand him having a try and they have a bigger budget than the WRU...!

maestegmafia wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:I think the way Pivac will see it is that Scott Williams is a 50+ cap international with clear class where the other options just aren't in the same league.

I would be surprised if anyone thought that with the lack of form Scott Williams has shown since he left the Scarlets.

I would think most fear his career is succumbing to the injuries taking toll on his current form.

Time to look at the many younger fitter options we have.

I think lots of Ospreys fans would disagree. When he's played, he's played well. Everyone suffers with injuries. We shouldn't be retiring players at 29 just because they hit a run of bad luck.

As shown yesterday, he had a very good game, with a good try assist. He can play 12 or 13 and as there is no other centre of his calibre in Wales, it's a choice between a solid option who might get injured, or a youngster (who also might get injured, big step up to Wales from regions) who might look completely out of their depth like Matthew Tait. Tyler Morgan has looked like that every time he played for Wales. I'm surprised you seem to think Scott Williams is the more risky/worse option given the choice.

If age, fitness, and form were really a factor, we may as well drop Parkes. I just think too many fans go with the status quo/what the media tell them, and because Gatland dropped Scott Williams they all just assume he's finished. Case in point - thinking Reez Zammit is ready for test rugby. The boy can't defend. Might be worth capping against Italy, but no one else. The less said about people criticising North the better, straight out of Andy Howell's little book of big, bad opinions.

guestalt_physicality wrote: The less said about people criticising North the better, straight out of Andy Howell's little book of big, bad opinions.

Probably leading on from below

guestalt_physicality wrote:

Hope North has a big game against the Dragons. Johnny McNicholl is putting pressure on him for a starting place now.

Which most would agree he didn't have a good game, save for finishing a try that most other wingers would.

Tyler Morgan won't get looked at, but to say he looked out of his depth every time is a bit much. For one, he played well against SA 2015. That's probably more recent international form, than the great Scott Williams himself.

No, he definitely looked out of depth against South Africa. Far too small, but that's not his fault. Wales were ravaged with injuries.

I'm sure Scott Williams has played big roles against New Zealand, South Africa, and Australia in recent years, scoring good tries. Someone might have to check, but I want to say 2016, 2017 etc. But perhaps you were just joking? Hard to tell on the internet!!

Well if you haven’t actually checked then I’ll assume you haven’t watched Rees-Zammit play either - your comments prove that anyway. You’re not going to be the talk of the premiership if you’re a crap defender and out of your depth. It’s also safe to assume you haven’t checked the form of Williams or North for the last couple of seasons. North has been especially poor whilst having such a big reputation, which is disappointing to say the least. This is boring anyway, we can just agree to disagree.

guestalt_physicality wrote:He can play 12 or 13 and as there is no other centre of his calibre in Wales, it's a choice between a solid option who might get injured, or a youngster (who also might get injured, big step up to Wales from regions) who might look completely out of their depth like Matthew Tait.

This is such a dumb thing to say, and I've seen similar arguments before. Any young debutant could get shown up at Test level, but that on its own isn't a good enough reason to go with a player with more experience - or you'd never give a player his first cap ever again.

That's not to say I don't think Scott Williams should get the nod.

mikey_dragon wrote:Given that Eddie Jones supposedly called Rees-Zammit to try and tempt him into the England set-up I think we could see him get called up too.

Doubt he would qualify via residency, does he have an English granny?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
That's not to say I don't think Scott Williams should get the nod.

I get confused once people start to use double negatives.

I'm not saying he shouldn't get the nod - is that better?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not saying he shouldn't get the nod - is that better?

Still a double negative, but it is what I thought you meant.

As you say, ultimately you have to take a risk on players. It is just trying to balance the risk. Tait was mentioned - that was a desperate selection on the back of less than 10 senior starts. Same could be applied to Rees-Zammit - taking such a risk when an acceptable alternative is available may well be a risk too far, as he has had so few games. However circumstances can force a coach's hand.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well if you haven’t actually checked then I’ll assume you haven’t watched Rees-Zammit play either - your comments prove that anyway. You’re not going to be the talk of the premiership if you’re a crap defender and out of your depth. It’s also safe to assume you haven’t checked the form of Williams or North for the last couple of seasons. North has been especially poor whilst having such a big reputation, which is disappointing to say the least. This is boring anyway, we can just agree to disagree.

This is a strange thing to say. I've watched Rees-Zammit, of course I have. 'My comments prove that'. What?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:He can play 12 or 13 and as there is no other centre of his calibre in Wales, it's a choice between a solid option who might get injured, or a youngster (who also might get injured, big step up to Wales from regions) who might look completely out of their depth like Matthew Tait.

This is such a dumb thing to say, and I've seen similar arguments before. Any young debutant could get shown up at Test level, but that on its own isn't a good enough reason to go with a player with more experience - or you'd never give a player his first cap ever again.

That's not to say I don't think Scott Williams should get the nod.

Why are you all being so rude? Now I'm called 'dumb'? Unreal.

If there was a young player who was very good then obviously inexperience doesn't matter as much. But there are no outstanding young centres, and Scott Williams is clearly both a more solid and proven option for Wales, as well as showing touches of class and physicality and the 'complete package' that no one else does. The only thing going against him is fitness to be honest.

Your point about not giving players first caps is I think called 'appeal to extremes' in logical fallacies.

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Given that Eddie Jones supposedly called Rees-Zammit to try and tempt him into the England set-up I think we could see him get called up too.

Doubt he would qualify via residency, does he have an English granny?

I don’t think so. The call was probably more “Why don’t you settle at Glaws and wait to see what the future holds £££.” Your own Rugby Paper ran the story btw.

I didn't say you were dumb, Miaow guestalt_physicality, I said what you said was dumb.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Given that Eddie Jones supposedly called Rees-Zammit to try and tempt him into the England set-up I think we could see him get called up too.

Doubt he would qualify via residency, does he have an English granny?

I don’t think so. The call was probably more “Why don’t you settle at Glaws and wait to see what the future holds £££.” Your own Rugby Paper ran the story btw.

I stopped buying TRP once it became just rumour and conjecture.

Rees-Zammit has time on his side to decide what he wants to do. He seems very Welsh so I am sure that getting a call up from Pivac would be accepted with alacrity.

guestalt_physicality wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well if you haven’t actually checked then I’ll assume you haven’t watched Rees-Zammit play either - your comments prove that anyway. You’re not going to be the talk of the premiership if you’re a crap defender and out of your depth. It’s also safe to assume you haven’t checked the form of Williams or North for the last couple of seasons. North has been especially poor whilst having such a big reputation, which is disappointing to say the least. This is boring anyway, we can just agree to disagree.

This is a strange thing to say. I've watched Rees-Zammit, of course I have. 'My comments prove that'. What?

Your comments (on Rees-Zammit, North, Williams, most rugby matters) just indicate to me that you don’t watch rugby - that’s not a dig that’s just how I’ve interpreted it after watching a lot of rugby myself. I can’t really see anyone agreeing with you either but hey ho, wouldn’t this site be boring if we all agreed 100%.

Oh. Well you're wrong. Of course I watch rugby. That's a bad way to live life if you call that proof, but happy to clear it up?

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Given that Eddie Jones supposedly called Rees-Zammit to try and tempt him into the England set-up I think we could see him get called up too.

Doubt he would qualify via residency, does he have an English granny?

I don’t think so. The call was probably more “Why don’t you settle at Glaws and wait to see what the future holds £££.” Your own Rugby Paper ran the story btw.

I stopped buying TRP once it became just rumour and conjecture.

Rees-Zammit has time on his side to decide what he wants to do. He seems very Welsh so I am sure that getting a call up from Pivac would be accepted with alacrity.

Yes, don't think there's any danger of the Welsh players mentioned actually get capped by England. It's just ammo for the future, a bit like with Ben Morgan and Dombrandt more recently, trying to see if there's any chance first of all, any interest from the player, and then turning round and pretending they're 'ours' when we play them. No rush to cap any of them, and if they join up with England and win a solitary cap, they have terrible agents.

This is the 23 I would select for Wales. Some players might be injured though, not sure.

1. Wyn Jones
2. Ken Owens
3. ?? probably WillGriff John or Leon Brown
4. Jake Ball
5. AWJ (captain)
6. Josh Navidi
7. Justin Tipuri (vice captain)
8. Faletau

9. Tomos Williams
10. Dan Biggar
11. Josh Adams
12. Hadleigh Parkes
13. Scott Williams
14 George North
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Ryan Elias or Elliot Dee
17. Rob Evans
18. Leon Brown or WillGriff John
19. Cory Hill
20. Aaron Wainwright or Aaron Shingler
21. Gareth Davies
22. Jarrod Evans or Rhys Patchell if fit
23. Johnny McNicholl

Quite a few players with injuries I think which is not ideal. If North and Tipuric are injured I would put Navidi to 7 and bring Ross Moriarty in to the 23 potentially, and just promote from the bench. Johnny McNicholl to start and then maybe Amos or Owen Lane as #23 but if Owen Watkin is fit later in the tournament he might take a bench place.

If Patchell isn't fit then it's Jarrod Evans or possibly Sam Davies might get another chance. Lots of good scrum halves as well and Rhodri Williams and Rhys Webb would be worth a look. No Aled Davies though. We look weak at tighthead (Brown and John look good but unproven) and second row if AWJ or Hill get injured. Shingler might be forced to cover the second row from the bench. Also number 8 if Faletau is out, probably Navidi covers there and another flanker comes in.

I think the Six Nations is England's to win as well to be honest.

I read today that Patchell will definitely miss the whole tournament, but that was Andy Howell so who knows.

Biggar's an excellent player, but I'd be tempted to have him on the bench and start with the Cardiff Blues half-back pairing. They have an understanding that really could be special, and additionally I like the idea of having a go in the opening match, given the venue and the opponents. We'd have Biggar as insurance if it's not happening.

I think you could get away with a young half-back pairing with so much experience at outside centre

Yeah I selected the Blues pair too when picking a squad the other week. Davies and Biggar to come off the bench is quite good. third scrum half spot now a shootout between Webb and Williams, I suspect Webb will get the nod. Wing and back-row are hugely competitive, some good players will have to miss out unfortunately.

Just been catching up on some news. Looks like AWJ has spoken with the Ospreys board, basically reiterating what a lot of us said around the time Tandy was hired and fired, then succeeded by Clarke. Millward has to be next surely.

Also it seems like Toulon want Webb to leave immediately, which I’m sure all stakeholders would be happy with. The poor behaviour is what you’d expect from Toulon’s owners.

I think as Jarrod Evans has played one capped game for Wales and was mentally weak, it would be risky to throw him in the deep end for the sake of a partnership. He's not proven at this level.

I'm not predicting who's going to be selected, I'm saying who I would select. That's who I would select. At home to Italy, and with Biggar on the bench.

Ok. Well in that case, I think it would be a strange selection given his one cap he had a poor game and looked flustered by the occasion. Much more sensible to bring him on off the bench IMO.

He was playing outside Aled Davies that day, wasn't he? It was also a bit of a second-string side all round, as I recall it.

It's true that he didn't have the best game.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:He was playing outside Aled Davies that day, wasn't he? It was also a bit of a second-string side all round, as I recall it.

Yeah that’s how I also recall it. It’s pretty wide of the mark to call Evans mentally weak based on that, especially as he’s been consistently excellent for his region since making his pro debut at age 19 or 20. He was also partly responsible for Anscombe moving on - not what you’d expect from a player who is ‘mentally weak.’ 

The entire Wales team played poor against Uruguay when Aled was running the game, it’s hard to believe that this guy is involved in pro rugby.

guestalt_physicality wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:I think the way Pivac will see it is that Scott Williams is a 50+ cap international with clear class where the other options just aren't in the same league.

I would be surprised if anyone thought that with the lack of form Scott Williams has shown since he left the Scarlets.

I would think most fear his career is succumbing to the injuries taking toll on his current form.

Time to look at the many younger fitter options we have.

I think lots of Ospreys fans would disagree. When he's played, he's played well. Everyone suffers with injuries. We shouldn't be retiring players at 29 just because they hit a run of bad luck.

As shown yesterday, he had a very good game, with a good try assist. He can play 12 or 13 and as there is no other centre of his calibre in Wales, it's a choice between a solid option who might get injured, or a youngster (who also might get injured, big step up to Wales from regions) who might look completely out of their depth like Matthew Tait. Tyler Morgan has looked like that every time he played for Wales. I'm surprised you seem to think Scott Williams is the more risky/worse option given the choice.

If age, fitness, and form were really a factor, we may as well drop Parkes. I just think too many fans go with the status quo/what the media tell them, and because Gatland dropped Scott Williams they all just assume he's finished. Case in point - thinking Reez Zammit is ready for test rugby. The boy can't defend. Might be worth capping against Italy, but no one else. The less said about people criticising North the better, straight out of Andy Howell's little book of big, bad opinions.

I am an Ospreys fan and Thomas Tian has had a better season so far. Scott needs more games to get his form back. He has hardly played in 18 months he has had so many injuries. And even before that he wasn’t even first choice at Scarlets. Parkes and JD2 were ahead of him.

On form he is a greet player and I am glad he is at the Ospreys , his experience does show on the pitch, but I can’t agree he is the solution to our midfield. He hasn’t shown that type of form for years.

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Given that Eddie Jones supposedly called Rees-Zammit to try and tempt him into the England set-up I think we could see him get called up too.

Doubt he would qualify via residency, does he have an English granny?

He’s been at Hartpury College for three years so qualifies on residency hence Eddie Jones trying his luck..!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not predicting who's going to be selected, I'm saying who I would select. That's who I would select. At home to Italy, and with Biggar on the bench.

I agree

On current form Biggar is the choice ten but I’d like Jarrod to get the nod for the first game. He is in superb form. Saw that start on the weekend vs Scarlets..!

mikey_dragon wrote:Just been catching up on some news. Looks like AWJ has spoken with the Ospreys board, basically reiterating what a lot of us said around the time Tandy was hired and fired, then succeeded by Clarke. Millward has to be next surely.

Also it seems like Toulon want Webb to leave immediately, which I’m sure all stakeholders would be happy with. The poor behaviour is what you’d expect from Toulon’s owners.

I think we’d happily have Rhys home at Llandarcy on Monday if he wants to come.

Fair trade in for Aled who would love the sunshine and Joie d’vivre or the Cote D’Azur

I think you've read too much in to 'mentally weak'. I'm referring to his performance against Ireland where he clearly suffered with nerves. We're talking about playng for Wales, not regional rugby, so on the basis he needs time to be built up slowly instead of just thrown in at the deep end, it makes a lot more sense to start with Biggar.

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Given that Eddie Jones supposedly called Rees-Zammit to try and tempt him into the England set-up I think we could see him get called up too.

Doubt he would qualify via residency, does he have an English granny?

He’s been at Hartpury College for three years so qualifies on residency hence Eddie Jones trying his luck..!  

I thought this was his 3rd year now, even so as his parental home is in Wales the residenctly will only have started this season.

mikey_dragon wrote:Just been catching up on some news. Looks like AWJ has spoken with the Ospreys board, basically reiterating what a lot of us said around the time Tandy was hired and fired, then succeeded by Clarke. Millward has to be next surely.

Also it seems like Toulon want Webb to leave immediately, which I’m sure all stakeholders would be happy with. The poor behaviour is what you’d expect from Toulon’s owners.

If Webb had signed a deal with Ospreys before seeking release from Toulon, as the new owner alleges, then I understand why Toulon feel hard done by, especially as they claim they have given Webb a lot of time off during this and last season to visit family.

Of course they may just feel they do not want him anymore. Personally, with his age, I feel Wales should only call him up in an emergency.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:He was playing outside Aled Davies that day, wasn't he? It was also a bit of a second-string side all round, as I recall it.

It's true that he didn't have the best game.

To be fair, it’s a pretty tough opposition for a ten too, as the Irish are pretty handy at swarming them.

guestalt_physicality wrote:I think you've read too much in to 'mentally weak'. I'm referring to his performance against Ireland where he clearly suffered with nerves. We're talking about playng for Wales, not regional rugby, so on the basis he needs time to be built up slowly instead of just thrown in at the deep end, it makes a lot more sense to start with Biggar.

We played a very young Dan Biggar, Rhys Patchell and Sam Davies in similar games and they’ve done well from it.

New coach and a new license to play what’s in front of him with Wellies as backs coach this looks like a brilliant opportunity for Jarrod to redeem himself as he did in the Baa Baas match

I’ve called for the return of Scott Williams in the past, but agree that it has to be on merit. And I’m not convinced he’s anywhere near past form at the moment. Plus, didn’t he leave the Scarlets as he was not getting picked by...... Pivac? So I’m not sure Pivac is a huge fan, or perhaps he does not play centre as Pivac would like. Or perhaps they didn’t get on? Lots of guessing, but he seemed to leave to get away and try to get first team rugby. So not sure that Pivac and Stephen Jones now being in charge of Wales would help his cause. I wouldn’t be unhappy to see him get called up though. Just hope he lives up to the hype because he certainly hasn’t shown it at club level recently, and we’ve been critical of Gatland in the past for picking players out of form and trying to play them back into form at international level.

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Just been catching up on some news. Looks like AWJ has spoken with the Ospreys board, basically reiterating what a lot of us said around the time Tandy was hired and fired, then succeeded by Clarke. Millward has to be next surely.

Also it seems like Toulon want Webb to leave immediately, which I’m sure all stakeholders would be happy with. The poor behaviour is what you’d expect from Toulon’s owners.

If Webb had signed a deal with Ospreys before seeking release from Toulon, as the new owner alleges, then I understand why Toulon feel hard done by, especially as they claim they have given Webb a lot of time off during this and last season to visit family.

Of course they may just feel they do not want him anymore. Personally, with his age, I feel Wales should only call him up in an emergency.

How do you sign another contract before the current one is over though? I would be surprised if what Toulon said about that is true. Perhaps Webb and Ospreys had a gentleman's agreement. I doubt it was a lot of time off as well, you know how bad they are at player-management down in France.

I don't think he's too old yet and probably still good enough to be in the mix. If it doesn't work out we'll look at Rhodri Williams and Kieran Hardy.