Wales - 2019/20 - Pivac, Grand Slams, and beyond - Post-RWC '19 and 2020 6Ns build up

First topic message reminder :

Wales' 2020 Six Nations Squad:

Forwards (21)

Rhys Carre (Saracens) (6 Caps)
Rob Evans (Scarlets) (36 Caps)
Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (22 Caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons) (29 Caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (9 Caps)
Ken Owens (Scarlets) (73 Caps)
Leon Brown (Dragons) (6 Caps)
WillGriff John (Sale) (*uncapped)
Dillon Lewis (Blues) (22 Caps)
Jake Ball (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Adam Beard (Ospreys) (20 Caps)
Seb Davies (Blues) (7 Caps)
Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (134 Caps) (CAPTAIN)
Will Rowlands (Wasps) (*uncapped)
Cory Hill (Dragons) (24 Caps)
Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (26 Caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (18 Caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Bath) (72 Caps)
Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (41 Caps)
Josh Navidi (Blues) (23 Caps)
Justin Tipuric (Osprey) (72 Caps)

Backs (17)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (51 Caps)
Rhys Webb (Toulon) (31 Caps)
Tomos Williams (Blues) (16 Caps)
Dan Biggar (Northampton) (79 Caps)
Owen Williams (Gloucester) (3 Caps)
Jarrod Evans (Blues) (3 Caps)
Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (25 Caps)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (*uncapped)
Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (22 Caps)
George North (Ospreys) (91 Caps)
Josh Adams (Blues) (21 Caps)
Owen Lane (Blues) (2 Caps)
Johnny McNicholl (Scarlets) (*uncapped)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester) (*uncapped)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers) (3 Caps)
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (85 Caps)
Liam Williams (Saracens) (62 Caps)

maestegmafia wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:It's odd to see a mod 'taking sides'. Unless of course this forum really is finished and the select individuals left are free to slur and offend with impunity? I was naive to think childish name calling was against the rules, but I'd reported it anyway. Thanks maestegmafia. Is there any other way of contacting mods?

As I said above if you have an issue report it. As I am actively on this thread I don’t want to get involved.

Report it and all the mods will see your report. London Tiger is watching this thread and is monitoring the situation. I’ve briefly discussed my thoughts with him when he asked.

Ta

Noble-Surfer wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Can anyone tell me how much game time Webb's been getting at Toulon? If he's been their starting scrum half then I would have no issue with him potentially starting against Italy (although it would seem quite drastic for Toulon to be getting rid of their starting scrum half), but if he hasn't been starting for them then Pivac might want him to earn his place through his performances for the Ospreys. It's not like we're scratching around for scrum halves, after all.

I have no idea how much game time he's been getting. According to that BBC article though, Toulon are saying he won't play for them again...

https://www.rugbypass.com/top-14/teams/toulon/players/rhys-webb/

He’s played 11 this season

mikey_dragon wrote:French clubs usually have two first XV's so I wouldn't read too much into it, but after recent events we know Webb isn't liked at Toulon. You aren't going to be well liked there if you're a good player that still wants to play international rugby for a team other than France.

That is so unfortunately still the biggest issue in rugby..! Club owners interests get far too much respect vs the future of the game.

Does anyone think Tomos Young of Wasps might get called up?

Just read the article explaining the breakdown on the Elite 38 and the distribution of funds.

guestalt_physicality wrote:Does anyone think Tomos Young of Wasps might get called up?

He has just returned from injury, has only played a few games. Very good openside maybe with injuries to welsh based lads like Ellis Jenkins, Ollie Griffiths and James Davies he might get a chance.

Unfortunately he plays in the wrong league and that will hamper his chances as the PRL will stop him training with Wales.

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

How soon is the squad being announced btw? Is it after the 2nd round of the euro competition?

I think it’s next Monday

11am on Wednesday January 15th.

Apparently the Elite 38 has been decided and presented to the PRB and therefor the regions thus indicating their budgets.

The names of the 38 players don’t include those who are overseas and the names are shrouded in secrecy at the moment. I’m not sure if long term injured players like Anscombe, Ellis Jenkins, etc are included or not?

And in other good news Mark McCall says he expects Liam Williams to be fit for the start of the Six Nations.

If the 38 doesn't include overseas players then I wonder how we plan on bringing them back home? Which is the intention of coaches like Mulvihill, as well as some others I imagine. How would Dragons meet the wage demands of someone like Faletau if he isn't on the 38 'elitist' (elite list)? Does the number (38) ever increase to say 40, when new internationals come onto the scene? Is the 38 ringfenced, or do the non-elitist get promoted for someone already on the list to come down? Those are the questions I'd ask. I think Anscombe is probably on the list. Jenkins I'm not so sure, as he plays in a position that isn't really in high demand. You can bet Webb being on there too.

Good news for Wales if Williams is due back sooner than expected. With a player of his caliber you could probably have him back in the squad for training as soon as he is able. He might not feature until the second or third round though.

mikey_dragon wrote:If the 38 doesn't include overseas players then I wonder how we plan on bringing them back home? Which is the intention of coaches like Mulvihill, as well as some others I imagine. How would Dragons meet the wage demands of someone like Faletau if he isn't on the 38 'elitist' (elite list)? Does the number (38) ever increase to say 40, when new internationals come onto the scene? Is the 38 ringfenced, or do the non-elitist get promoted for someone already on the list to come down? Those are the questions I'd ask. I think Anscombe is probably on the list. Jenkins I'm not so sure, as he plays in a position that isn't really in high demand. You can bet Webb being on there too.

Good news for Wales if Williams is due back sooner than expected. With a player of his caliber you could probably have him back in the squad for training as soon as he is able. He might not feature until the second or third round though.

If an overseas player signs for a region and Pivac wants them then they are in the 38. Which is why so many star players are now returning to the regions.

We are also seeing the big targets like Navidi etc who’s contracts are up at the end of the season re-sign to stay at their region until the end of their career.

I hope Tipuric announces a similar four year deal soon

Saracens Mark McCall also said with regards to Liam Williams that he may even move back to the Scarlets this season...!

With the new financial arrangement of the elite 38 the regions should be able to encourage welsh qualified star players to return. With Saracens having to reduce the player budget because they were caught cheating last season this may well mean that they need to offload some of their best players now.

Last year was pretty hard for the regions with the reset but things are potentially looking brighter at the start of 2020.

It doesn't seem like Williams would want to leave there immediately and that's a bit odd, but I get Sarries would prefer it so they don't have to pay his wages and with the emergence of Gallagher now playing alongside Daly.

mikey_dragon wrote:It doesn't seem like Williams would want to leave there immediately and that's a bit odd, but I get Sarries would prefer it so they don't have to pay his wages and with the emergence of Gallagher now playing alongside Daly.

From what I read I thought Sarries had lots of fullback injuries? Goode out and the new lad Max Malins not sure they have much cover beyond three fullbacks. But I think it’s the financial liability of the wage cap being exceeded again that they need to deal with.

Looks like Liam Williams could be a scarlet in four weeks time according to the latest report

It would be great to have Williams back at the Scarlets- he's always been a great player, and a fantastic attacking threat. I felt he didn't get utilised to the best of his ability on the wing while Halfpenny was at fullback for Wales... Still a great player on the wing, just felt he was a more natural fullback than Halfpenny- who has done a great job for us at fullback over the years. Williams has really matured as a player over the years, and will be a great asset to the Scarlets.

Williams is an obvious player for Saracens to let go immediately. If it helps, I am sure Dragons will take Carre of their hands too.

Yep!

Rhys Carre could well be on the market I suppose. I can’t see them getting rid of Mako. Dragons would be looking very tidy if that came off their way

I think Carre was the marquee so doesn't count. If they decide that they want another marquee then I suppose they would let him go and replace with a big earner like Itoje. I imagine if that's the case he'll head back to Blues, sadly.

In fairness he'd probably prefer to go back to the Blues.

Getting rid of Liam Williams is because of the salary cap. If he doesn't play for them this season, eventhough they are paying him, they can exclude him from the salary cap o that's why he might get early release.

I don't think Saracens need to get rid of too many other players.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:In fairness he'd probably prefer to go back to the Blues.

I am sure he would aye.

Would Carre really be a marquee signing for Sarries? I always thought the marquee signings were those ‘blow the budget’ signings such as Piatau, etc. Carre went as a relative unknown on, I would imagine, not much more than a development contract/salary? But I perhaps just do not know what the marquee system is in England.

It’s what the premiership viewers were just saying on another thread, but I don’t know much more than that either.

Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

mikey_dragon wrote:It’s what the premiership viewers were just saying on another thread, but I don’t know much more than that either.

Carre definitely not a marquee player but first in first out.

They’ve got a large wage bill they need to shift...! Sarries New Year Sale Now on

They won't be getting rid of Carre. He is a low earner. Expensive NEQ international players are for 'sale' e.g. Liam Williams. Sanjay is especially viable as his injury has meant he won't count towards the salary cap if he doesn't make an appearance for the club all season.

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

LT, I also thought it was reserved for expensive overseas signings, the Piatua's and Beale's of the premiership. Thanks for clarifying. Do clubs disclose who their marquee's are, or is it kept in house and left for the rest of us to guess? I wasn't entirely sure Carre would be on there unless it was just Sarries using it to get an additional player having already spent up to the cap. As I said, I repeated what I read elsewhere, so I'm not sure why certain individuals are getting uppity over a harmless convo just for the sake of trying to be right again - it's kinda killing the vibe here when they do that.

LondonTiger wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

No, that's not true, unfortunately. But I don't want to start arguments over it. It's not even on topic for Wales, is it.

I never get the hypocrisy after all these years, it's like they're living in some alternate reality. Anyway....

guestalt_physicality wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

No, that's not true, unfortunately. But I don't want to start arguments over it. It's not even on topic for Wales, is it.

Well it's literally what they are all saying on the premiership wage cap thread, so do you have proof of otherwise? If this is off topic then how come it was you who continued to drag it further off topic, and then decide to tell everyone to move on after you get the last word in? How very reminiscent of someone else. LT was asked to watch the thread but can also freely comment as a poster, not that it needs to be clarified with you first which is the impression you seem to be under.

LondonTiger wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

So to keep Farrell they have to include him in the non marquee side of the accounts which means less bidget for the larger squad as I imagine he doesn’t want a pay cut.

It’s smart that England refuse to select outside of players in their premiership. Maybe soon wales can get to the same situation.

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

So to keep Farrell they have to include him in the non marquee side of the accounts which means less bidget for the larger squad as I imagine he doesn’t want a pay cut.

It’s smart that England refuse to select outside of players in their premiership. Maybe soon wales can get to the same situation.

I’d agree if we had 12 teams like England too but with only 4 I think we restrict ourselves too much by only picking home players. It’s a good deterrent for players considering leaving though. It’s such a tricky balance (allowing selection of players outside Wales). As we saw previously, without a home selection policy the floodgates might open and the top players swan off to England and France. Great for them, not bad for their development either (potentially), but crap for domestic rugby in Wales and puts pressure on the Wales coaching setup with varying degrees of access to players. Tricky.

The Oracle wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

So to keep Farrell they have to include him in the non marquee side of the accounts which means less bidget for the larger squad as I imagine he doesn’t want a pay cut.

It’s smart that England refuse to select outside of players in their premiership. Maybe soon wales can get to the same situation.

I’d agree if we had 12 teams like England too but with only 4 I think we restrict ourselves too much by only picking home players.  It’s a good deterrent for players considering leaving though.  It’s such a tricky balance (allowing selection of players outside Wales).  As we saw previously, without a home selection policy the floodgates might open and the top players swan off to England and France.  Great for them, not bad for their development either (potentially), but crap for domestic rugby in Wales and puts pressure on the Wales coaching setup with varying degrees of access to players.  Tricky.

Swings and roundabouts eh..! Get everyone back strengthen the league vs give less experienced players the top seat while our star players move elsewhere..!

Your point about the size of the league and the amount of players is right. But look at the strengths of Irish rugby or New Zealand versus our own..!

Our regions are barely a match for Connacht let alone Leinster or even the Crusaders

Dillon Lewis is fit again and should play this weekend for the Blues against Tigers at Welford rd.

Wales need some of their better players (not too many) to move abroad and take advantage of other environments. Look at how Liam Williams improved his games (and temperament) at Sarries before his injury (and further back Stephen Jones and Alfie).

The Oracle wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

So to keep Farrell they have to include him in the non marquee side of the accounts which means less bidget for the larger squad as I imagine he doesn’t want a pay cut.

It’s smart that England refuse to select outside of players in their premiership. Maybe soon wales can get to the same situation.

I’d agree if we had 12 teams like England too but with only 4 I think we restrict ourselves too much by only picking home players.  It’s a good deterrent for players considering leaving though.  It’s such a tricky balance (allowing selection of players outside Wales).  As we saw previously, without a home selection policy the floodgates might open and the top players swan off to England and France.  Great for them, not bad for their development either (potentially), but crap for domestic rugby in Wales and puts pressure on the Wales coaching setup with varying degrees of access to players.  Tricky.

So the 60 cap rule is a good one then. Same can be said for cases like Josh Adams, we now know it works.

mikey_dragon wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

So to keep Farrell they have to include him in the non marquee side of the accounts which means less bidget for the larger squad as I imagine he doesn’t want a pay cut.

It’s smart that England refuse to select outside of players in their premiership. Maybe soon wales can get to the same situation.

I’d agree if we had 12 teams like England too but with only 4 I think we restrict ourselves too much by only picking home players.  It’s a good deterrent for players considering leaving though.  It’s such a tricky balance (allowing selection of players outside Wales).  As we saw previously, without a home selection policy the floodgates might open and the top players swan off to England and France.  Great for them, not bad for their development either (potentially), but crap for domestic rugby in Wales and puts pressure on the Wales coaching setup with varying degrees of access to players.  Tricky.

So the 60 cap rule is a good one then. Same can be said for cases like Josh Adams, we now know it works.

Yes I think a rule like the 60 cap one, or something similar, is a good balance between having a zero tolerance approach like NZ and having a completely open door policy like Scotland. There needs to be some deterrent from leaving Wales for me, and we need to have strong domestic sides to attract fans and the next generation of players. I get the desire to move away - France is pretty awesome! So a player who has spent his time and got 60 caps can go abroad and still play for Wales. That’s reasonable I think. If Wales players historically had left and really improved then I’d be more happy to encourage it, but the 3 Cyril mentioned above are probably the only examples of Welsh players improving in the history of pro rugby, and I’d argue that Liam Williams was just as good before he left......it’s just he English didn’t see as much of him as they do now! So just Alfie and S Jones improved, for me. But most players have not improved and in many cases struggled or even go worse - Roberts, Gethin, JD2, Lydiate, Mike Phillips - all struggled to really make an impact in France to varying degrees. Some good performances at times but they either didn’t set the world on fire or were roundly criticised for not being very good. JD2, Gethin, Roberts and Lydiate got worse for sure. Did 1/2p struggle too? Charteris? Can’t remember. But overall I think the majority of players seem to be better when in Wales........but if they’ve ‘served their time’ then why not allow them one last hurrah in the country of their choosing. Crack on. 60 caps is a nice balance.

The Oracle wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:Itoje and Farrell are Saracens' marquee players i.e. outside the salary cap, on salaries around £750k.

Carre is obviously nowhere near that.

One of the Marquee Spots has to be a player recruited from outside the league. So Farrell would have had one last season, probably with Williams. With Itoje's pay rise he may have taken Farrell's spot.

So to keep Farrell they have to include him in the non marquee side of the accounts which means less bidget for the larger squad as I imagine he doesn’t want a pay cut.

It’s smart that England refuse to select outside of players in their premiership. Maybe soon wales can get to the same situation.

I’d agree if we had 12 teams like England too but with only 4 I think we restrict ourselves too much by only picking home players.  It’s a good deterrent for players considering leaving though.  It’s such a tricky balance (allowing selection of players outside Wales).  As we saw previously, without a home selection policy the floodgates might open and the top players swan off to England and France.  Great for them, not bad for their development either (potentially), but crap for domestic rugby in Wales and puts pressure on the Wales coaching setup with varying degrees of access to players.  Tricky.

So the 60 cap rule is a good one then. Same can be said for cases like Josh Adams, we now know it works.

Yes I think a rule like the 60 cap one, or something similar, is a good balance between having a zero tolerance approach like NZ and having a completely open door policy like Scotland.  There needs to be some deterrent from leaving Wales for me, and we need to have strong domestic sides to attract fans and the next generation of players.  I get the desire to move away - France is pretty awesome!  So a player who has spent his time and got 60 caps can go abroad and still play for Wales.  That’s reasonable I think.  If Wales players historically had left and really improved then I’d be more happy to encourage it, but the 3 Cyril mentioned above are probably the only examples of Welsh players improving in the history of pro rugby, and I’d argue that Liam Williams was just as good before he left......it’s just he English didn’t see as much of him as they do now! So just Alfie and S Jones improved, for me.  But most players have not improved and in many cases struggled or even go worse - Roberts, Gethin, JD2, Lydiate, Mike Phillips - all struggled to really make an impact in France to varying degrees.  Some good performances at times but they either didn’t set the world on fire or were roundly criticised for not being very good.   JD2, Gethin, Roberts and Lydiate got worse for sure.  Did 1/2p struggle too?  Charteris? Can’t remember.  But overall I think the majority of players seem to be better when in Wales........but if they’ve ‘served their time’ then why not allow them one last hurrah in the country of their choosing.  Crack on.  60 caps is a nice balance.

I would say that the players rarely improve, more that the regular exposure to a wider audience gets them recognition for their talents. Far too many times, particularly on this site I have seen a welsh player called overrated by English fans until they reach the premiership and suddenly BT Sports rugby program think the player is world class and people’s opinions quickly change

Playing for 3rd or 4th place.

Interesting article with Warbs and his role as the consulting coach of the dark arts at the breakdown. I know a number of coaches have done similar before, getting former world class open sides in to work on the breakdown.

TightHEAD wrote:Playing for 3rd or 4th place.

You should have more confidence in your team. If you can get past France in Paris, who knows?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Playing for 3rd or 4th place.

You should have more confidence in your team. If you can get past France in Paris, who knows?

Ha ha ha..!

maestegmafia wrote:Interesting article with Warbs and his role as the consulting coach of the dark arts at the breakdown. I know a number of coaches have done similar before, getting former world class open sides in to work on the breakdown.

Decent read tbf. I liked reading the bit about having as many people on their feet in attacking rucks as possible, for Stephen Jones.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Playing for 3rd or 4th place.

You should have more confidence in your team. If you can get past France in Paris, who knows?

Fair point LP.

RiscaGame wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Interesting article with Warbs and his role as the consulting coach of the dark arts at the breakdown. I know a number of coaches have done similar before, getting former world class open sides in to work on the breakdown.

Decent read tbf. I liked reading the bit about having as many people on their feet in attacking rucks as possible, for Stephen Jones.

Makes sense. I wonder if there isn’t more that recently retired players could add. Mind you the back room staff for our current set up are very strong former players, bar Hayward good club player little more. You don’t have to have been an excellent sportsman to be a great coach.

Let’s hope that the players get through the next few weekends with out any bother.

maestegmafia wrote:Dillon Lewis is fit again and should play this weekend for the Blues against Tigers at Welford rd.

It's a shame Leicester won't be putting out their first XV, Dillon Lewis versus Ellis Genge would have been tasty.

Having said that, Genge did play at Arms Park earlier, so maybe he will play.

So I am thinking vs Italy ...!

Rhys Ken John
AWJ and Hill
Navidi, Toby, Tips
Tomos Jarrod
Johnson Parkes
Zamster, Liam, Adams

Dee, Wyn, Dillon, Bally, Basham, Webb, Sheedy, McNicoll

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Dillon Lewis is fit again and should play this weekend for the Blues against Tigers at Welford rd.

It's a shame Leicester won't be putting out their first XV, Dillon Lewis versus Ellis Genge would have been tasty.

Having said that, Genge did play at Arms Park earlier, so maybe he will play.

Huge asset for blues having Dillon back, that said to be fair they haven’t struggled upfront too much.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Playing for 3rd or 4th place.

You should have more confidence in your team. If you can get past France in Paris, who knows?

Always about England with you lot!