Wales - 2019/20 - Pivac, Grand Slams, and beyond - Post-RWC '19 and 2020 6Ns build up

First topic message reminder :

Wales' 2020 Six Nations Squad:

Forwards (21)

Rhys Carre (Saracens) (6 Caps)
Rob Evans (Scarlets) (36 Caps)
Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (22 Caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons) (29 Caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (9 Caps)
Ken Owens (Scarlets) (73 Caps)
Leon Brown (Dragons) (6 Caps)
WillGriff John (Sale) (*uncapped)
Dillon Lewis (Blues) (22 Caps)
Jake Ball (Scarlets) (42 Caps)
Adam Beard (Ospreys) (20 Caps)
Seb Davies (Blues) (7 Caps)
Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) (134 Caps) (CAPTAIN)
Will Rowlands (Wasps) (*uncapped)
Cory Hill (Dragons) (24 Caps)
Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (26 Caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (18 Caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Bath) (72 Caps)
Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (41 Caps)
Josh Navidi (Blues) (23 Caps)
Justin Tipuric (Osprey) (72 Caps)

Backs (17)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (51 Caps)
Rhys Webb (Toulon) (31 Caps)
Tomos Williams (Blues) (16 Caps)
Dan Biggar (Northampton) (79 Caps)
Owen Williams (Gloucester) (3 Caps)
Jarrod Evans (Blues) (3 Caps)
Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (25 Caps)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) (*uncapped)
Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (22 Caps)
George North (Ospreys) (91 Caps)
Josh Adams (Blues) (21 Caps)
Owen Lane (Blues) (2 Caps)
Johnny McNicholl (Scarlets) (*uncapped)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester) (*uncapped)
Jonah Holmes (Leicester Tigers) (3 Caps)
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (85 Caps)
Liam Williams (Saracens) (62 Caps)

According to Geraint John, Hartpury have had scouts in Wales looking for players.

I know this is from a 2017 and it's wales online, but it's an interesting read:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-chiefs-hit-back-strongly-13800820

LordDowlais wrote:

miaow wrote:Well this thread picked up...

What's your opinion ?

On schools? Can't stop the passport a private/fee paying education gives you to much better chances in life. The world is truly global now, Britain is in sharp decline. The mobility and freedom a good education gives you to become economically valuable is huge, far bigger and more important than rugby.

The whole system in Wales could do with being joined up, but Wales' systemic issues got much deeper than just rugby. The whole country is in serious need of investment and 'management', for want of a better word i.e. modernisation that's about more than just private capital. There's a country outisde South Wales as well.

Owen Williams is a pertinent reminder that rugby can lead to life changing circumstances instantly. Less dramatically, players like Harry Robinson would be a more common example. There's more to life than rugby.

But Wales should align the different sections of society. Cannot believe the Blues, for instance, don't tap in to the huge student population in the city.

LordDowlais wrote:According to Geraint John, Hartpury have had scouts in Wales looking for players.

I know this is from a 2017 and it's wales online, but it's an interesting read:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-chiefs-hit-back-strongly-13800820

A few points:

Firstly, Hartpury are a rugby team as well as a college. As you mention they are in the English league structure. So of course they’ve got scouts. How do you think they get players?! Players don’t all just turn up on their doorstep with their kit and ask for a game. Our clubs and regions do exactly the same. If they’re short of locks or props for example we go looking, aka scouting.

Secondly, did you read the article?! It says we’re doing the same! Geraint John even said ‘it’s works both ways’. We’re scouting in England (at club level and with the exiles programme) and they’re scouting here. Sounds like tit for tat to me.

miaow wrote:Not as cute as you, sweet cheeks...

Reported, unnecessary, personal. You never learn.

Did you really report him for that? Jesus wept

Let's keep it on topic boys, let the mods deal with the dregs.

Ellis Jenkins is back fit - a full 12 and a bit months out of the game. Lots of competition in his position for Wales with Tipuric looking like the captain elect if AWJ slows down/gets rested, but this season might be the perfect time to establish himself as a test player, which he probably hasn't had the chance to do yet.

Am I missing something? Who are we losing or have we lost, because they went to a rugby school in England? Vunipola’s aren’t exactly a good example if they’re Tongan. I fail to see what the bad thing is with say, Louis Rees-Zammit going away to Hartpury college and then ending up playing for Gloucester in the premiership and euro cup at age 18? He’s obviously got great potential but Hartpury and Gloucester should also be credited there, and he’s likely to be the playing for the senior Wales team in a year or 2. Ross Moriarty went the same way but is back playing for us. If you want to improve the regions now then you should probably target those who have been playing pro rugby for a few seasons. I listed most of them in an article recently.

Tigers and whichever school brought on Tommy Reffel for us, he’s now a pro player. Bristol are doing the same with Ioan Lloyd. All of them have played for Wales at age grade. Not so sure about Sheedy as I think he was keeping his options open having qualified for Wales on birth, being eligible for Ireland through his parents, and qualifying for England on residency.

Are the Vunipolas 'Tongan'...? One born in NZ, one born in Australia, brought up through the age grades playing rugby in Wales...seems resonable to say they slipped through the net and got tempted by English monetary power in the school system. Not born and bred Welshmen, but would clearly have played for Wales had they stayed.

miaow wrote:Feels like it might be worth creating a new thread for the Pivac era.

So Gatland's gone and after another close-but-not-quite campaign in Japan, we face the future with Pivac and his coaching panel, with new challenges ahead. Some of the key questions will be:

 

Close but not quite?

Not quite close more like.......

Yes, they're Tongan. It is reasonable to suggest they could have been playing for Wales, but given the reason they're not Welsh then it can't be classed as us losing players to these schools in England as LD puts it. I'm not sure how it's an issue because we're yet to lose out; we've in fact gained from it like I previously alluded to.

Welsh rugby, not Wales rugby.


I mentioned those two, as you can bet your life, if the same opportunites were in Wales, they would be Welsh now. Not English.


But I am mostly on about how the regions have lost out on players because of the schools system in England. How many decent youngsters are playing for the like of Bristol, Bath, Leicester ? A lot of players that would have massively improved the regions, and Welsh rugby.


Also, if you even bothered to read the thread properly, you will notice that I have said on numerous occasions, that I have no problem with it, and it's a shame we are not doing it in Wales, as it is another pathway.


But lets not let you and Oracle, and the rest of the Dragons mafioso on here let it get in your way of always trying to tell us how it is.

Khouli Khan wrote:

miaow wrote:Feels like it might be worth creating a new thread for the Pivac era.

So Gatland's gone and after another close-but-not-quite campaign in Japan, we face the future with Pivac and his coaching panel, with new challenges ahead. Some of the key questions will be:

 

Close but not quite?

Not quite close more like.......

Hmmm...wonder who this might be. 'New' user, offering sarcy, critical commentary. Seems suspicious...

But yeah. Lost to the champions by a penalty 5 minutes from time. Very close. Would have backed Wales to beat England in the final even before their decimation against SA. Close-but-not-quite. Shame.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yes, they're Tongan. It is reasonable to suggest they could have been playing for Wales, but given the reason they're not Welsh then it can't be classed as us losing players to these schools in England as LD puts it. I'm not sure how it's an issue because we're yet to lose out; we've in fact gained from it like I previously alluded to.

This is getting in to ugly, racist territory. 'Race', culture, and nationality is complex. 'Telling' the Vunipolas that, actually, they're Tongan and nothing more, nothing less, is a conversation not worth pursuing. Ugly. This never happens for white people.

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yes, they're Tongan. It is reasonable to suggest they could have been playing for Wales, but given the reason they're not Welsh then it can't be classed as us losing players to these schools in England as LD puts it. I'm not sure how it's an issue because we're yet to lose out; we've in fact gained from it like I previously alluded to.

This is getting in to ugly, racist territory. 'Race', culture, and nationality is complex. 'Telling' the Vunipolas that, actually, they're Tongan and nothing more,  nothing less, is a conversation not worth pursuing. Ugly. This never happens for white people.

They are English, they put themselves forward as being English, but they are proud of their heratage.

If we had a Milford, or an Oakham, or a Hartpury in Wales, I bet they would be Welsh, but very proud of their heratage. It's a shame, as they are both world class players. We could have done with them, but hey ho.

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yes, they're Tongan. It is reasonable to suggest they could have been playing for Wales, but given the reason they're not Welsh then it can't be classed as us losing players to these schools in England as LD puts it. I'm not sure how it's an issue because we're yet to lose out; we've in fact gained from it like I previously alluded to.

This is getting in to ugly, racist territory. 'Race', culture, and nationality is complex. 'Telling' the Vunipolas that, actually, they're Tongan and nothing more,  nothing less, is a conversation not worth pursuing. Ugly. This never happens for white people.

LordDowlais wrote:Welsh rugby, not Wales rugby.


I mentioned those two, as you can bet your life, if the same opportunites were in Wales, they would be Welsh now. Not English.


But I am mostly on about how the regions have lost out on players because of the schools system in England. How many decent youngsters are playing for the like of Bristol, Bath, Leicester ? A lot of players that would have massively improved the regions, and Welsh rugby.


Also, if you even bothered to read the thread properly, you will notice that I have said on numerous occasions, that I have no problem with it, and it's a shame we are not doing it in Wales, as it is another pathway.


But lets not let you and Oracle, and the rest of the Dragons mafioso on here let it get in your way of always trying to tell us how it is.  

LD this was your first comment on the thread. When other people questioned you on it you seemed to move away from that and make a new point. It's kinda confusing. I would agree that utilising a schools system would be a good idea for development in Wales, and if we could form one similar to the one in SA then great, but that's a different point to the one you made about 'losing' Welsh players to English schools.

Reffell wouldn't have got a look-in at a Welsh team because we have too many open-sides. He still represented Wales U20 and is now in the Tigers team. He's not lost to us. It's a good thing, surely? Bringing back Welsh players is something I brought up recently, but again this seems to go away from the original point you were making? If you're referring to Rees-Zammit and Lloyd then it is best to leave them with Gloucester and Bristol for a couple seasons to continue what has been good development for them - then it would be a good idea to bring them back the way brought back Moriarty and Adams. There is no way to know for sure that had hey stayed, they'd be starters for a region putting in good performances every weekend. Anyone else isn't worth mentioning if they're only playing 6th Form rugby, they may not make it as pro players.

You finished off with another stupid jibe, again. Is it any wonder people tried avoiding this thread for so long? It's heading the way it usually does when you and kitten are involved.

mikey_dragon wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Yes, they're Tongan. It is reasonable to suggest they could have been playing for Wales, but given the reason they're not Welsh then it can't be classed as us losing players to these schools in England as LD puts it. I'm not sure how it's an issue because we're yet to lose out; we've in fact gained from it like I previously alluded to.

This is getting in to ugly, racist territory. 'Race', culture, and nationality is complex. 'Telling' the Vunipolas that, actually, they're Tongan and nothing more,  nothing less, is a conversation not worth pursuing. Ugly. This never happens for white people.

My thoughts exactly.

I apologise for the jibe, it just always gets frustrating where members on here are all out vigilante to gain one upmanship by proving people they are wrong, all the time.

I am not against these kids going to rugby schools in England, far from it, I just wish they had they same opportunities in Wales.

I then get dragged into silly arguments about how Hartpury is not the same as such and such. Or I am wrong because of this and that.

It is very tiresome.

Agreed.

Let's keep it on topic and rather than getting too focused on a fringe issue which has a more relevant thread in the Club section which was still active last week, let's talk about the national side first and foremost, and not kids and schools.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Welsh rugby, not Wales rugby.


I mentioned those two, as you can bet your life, if the same opportunites were in Wales, they would be Welsh now. Not English.


But I am mostly on about how the regions have lost out on players because of the schools system in England. How many decent youngsters are playing for the like of Bristol, Bath, Leicester ? A lot of players that would have massively improved the regions, and Welsh rugby.


Also, if you even bothered to read the thread properly, you will notice that I have said on numerous occasions, that I have no problem with it, and it's a shame we are not doing it in Wales, as it is another pathway.


But lets not let you and Oracle, and the rest of the Dragons mafioso on here let it get in your way of always trying to tell us how it is.  

LD this was your first comment on the thread. When other people questioned you on it you seemed to move away from that and make a new point. It's kinda confusing. I would agree that utilising a schools system would be a good idea for development in Wales, and if we could form one similar to the one in SA then great, but that's a different point to the one you made about 'losing' Welsh players to English schools.

Reffell wouldn't have got a look-in at a Welsh team because we have too many open-sides. He still represented Wales U20 and is now in the Tigers team. He's not lost to us. It's a good thing, surely? Bringing back Welsh players is something I brought up recently, but again this seems to go away from the original point you were making? If you're referring to Rees-Zammit and Lloyd then it is best to leave them with Gloucester and Bristol for a couple seasons to continue what has been good development for them - then it would be a good idea to bring them back the way brought back Moriarty and Adams. There is no way to know for sure that had hey stayed, they'd be starters for a region putting in good performances every weekend. Anyone else isn't worth mentioning if they're only playing 6th Form rugby, they may not make it as pro players.

You finished off with another stupid jibe, again. Is it any wonder people tried avoiding this thread for so long? It's heading the way it usually does when you and kitten are involved.

But the regions will never build any strength in depth at this rate, look at the Irish provinces, top notch players, and top notch players coming through the academies, they have a conveyor belt.

We have this conveyor belt in Wales, but a lot of the young players on that conveyor belt end up in the English leagues and schools.

I think - to try and put this to bed, LD - there are some who go to England, yes, but not in vast numbers. You can't stop them going over and getting a better education etc.

But it's also a two way thing. With the exiles programme and, also, picking up English players in Unis like Dombrandt, Underhill etc., and countless others. Amos is Welsh through residency alone, I think, and has no Welsh 'blood'.

It's not a one way thing, and while a worrying trend that will likely continue - something I rmember raising when the 5 year residency rule was mooted and then announced - it's not a major issue at present, and the WRU has adapted to take advantage and get these players back if/when they reach a certain standard, and also pick up English-born/raised players as well.

There's a more relevant thread for the continuation of this topic here: https://www.606v2.com/t69260-wq-players-in-england-and-elsewhere

I hadn't realised Amos was only residency qualified when I made the earlier comment about him attending a posh rugby school.

That does indeed show it has worked both ways in terms of traffic of players, although what age did he move there? You wouldnt really look at someone like North who moved very very young as someone shipped over for rugby schooling lost to the english system.

It is the case though that theres better levels of coaching available at the elite rugby schools and colleges in England than is in Wales, so we are likely to see an increasing number of top players come from English schools/colleges. The best case for Wales is that they still retain a number of those to regional teams and as capped internationals.

There might be the odd generic freak lost to the English system, but equally birth qualified players have opportunities for a level of training in their early to mid teens in england that they simply can't get in Wales. As with many things it's a case of resources. Theres more money in english schools and more support from the richer RFU.

It's up to Wales to make the best of this, as it has been for the likes of Tonga seeing talented kids take scholarships abroad.

A double edged sword. As noted above Wales hasn't really suffered as a result of this yet, and have balanced out losses with gains. Theres a lot of players based with English clubs, whilst the regions may suffer it does mean theres a bigger player base getting top levelmpro rugby week in week out.

The next few years might be more telling as we start to see if there is a positive or negative impact of the increasing number of talented kids nipping over the border to further their rugby careers. It's not raw numbers that really matters it's the quality of those going and whether they graduate to Wales or England ( or just remember they have a Scottish grandparent).

Just looked it up and Amos has lived in Wales since 4.

Right fair enough so hes in the North group, didn't move their for the school/rugby opportunities

I don’t want to add my piece on this, as apparently it’s not the thread. If anybody could provide me a link, I’ll happily go there, but it might’ve been too subtle for me to see.

Young players leave Wales for varying reasons. Are the pro teams doing that bad producing talent still? Even the team everybody loves to bash is producing players. Even if you discount those involved in the Barbarians camp in some way, we still have props like Reynolds and Coleman we are blooding, then others like Max Williams, Jared Rosser and others I could name, if I went through every position. Every pro team has talent. Some go elsewhere. Such is life.

Sorry to disagree about the player drain. If anybody is actively engaged watching a pro team, they’ll be aware we do very well for a small nation and we still bring players home, that might be interested, if they’re worthy. The key point is how many do we actually lose, that get capped elsewhere? If we are talking about Vunipolas, did Mako outshine Gethin when he was playing or even Jones recently? Would Billy have made a difference to a fit Faletau or even any 8 Gatland used?

P.S.  this is my opinion and not the “mafia” or whatever childish insult that’s allowed to be thrown around. Maybe my profile needs to say I’ll tell you when you’re wrong and then complain when people dare to disagree?

Yep, people move around for work and have done for centuries. Rugby is no different. It also explains how we have some WQ players born and living in England, but that's why the exiles programme was brought in.

What's happened to mioaw ?????

You know I did actually ask the same question, in private so nobody would bitch, and didn’t get an answer. So good luck.

My best guess is that Miaow deleted his account. Much though I think its a bad thing when people leave this site I don't think I'll miss him.

If he had kept to (short) analysis and avoided getting into a fight every time he would have been a valuable member.

What a shame, this place is dying a slow death. I notice we do not see a lot meastegmafia on here as well, has he gone ?

Miaow was a pretty decent poster, but then for some reason decided to start squabbling too often and was generally the root cause of a lot of threads going downhill. There is already less arguing etc over the past few days, so it's pretty fair to suggest that a lot of problems have probably been solved somewhat.

I can understand why some people found some posts quite long, but I personally warmed to their long posts, as at least they did try adding to the site then and there isn't a great deal of discussion on here, other than circular arguments and such like. If they had stuck to that, then I am sure they would still be around.

I was pretty curious about Maesteg though, as he has disappeared for no reason.

LordDowlais wrote:What a shame, this place is dying a slow death. I notice we do not see a lot meastegmafia on here as well, has he gone ?

Maes got a lot of flak from certain posters for his modding style, so I think he had enough. Just guessing though. I liked him and got on well with him.

Yeah Maes actually moderated English posters, something we had been crying out for happen for months and they didn't take it well . Pity if he's gone away. Good riddance to miaow though, awful poster and person.

Maes was deemed to have done such a good job moderating that he had to have his own special mod category created which took away his powers to just hand out bans to English posters for disagreeing with him

Agree with you on miaow though mikey

Can we get back on topic and discuss Welsh players based abroad please?

Gooseberry wrote:Can we get back on topic and discuss Welsh players based abroad please?

Wrong thread

Gooseberry wrote:Can we get back on topic and discuss Welsh players based abroad please?

If pivac goes for a faster wider game who do you think ( or who would you want) as your back row and centres?

carpet baboon wrote:If pivac goes for a faster wider game who do you think ( or who would you want) as your back row and centres?

Back-row I'm not sure as there are a few good options. I think we would all agree with Shingler at blind-side if he returns, 7 and 8 we'd probably pick two of our many open-sides as Faletau may not be ready. Centres, whoever isn't injured. I would say put a fly-half at 12 but we're also looking a bit thin in that position. I still believe North could be better utilised at 13, especially playing outside a 'second five-eight.'

mikey_dragon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:If pivac goes for a faster wider game who do you think ( or who would you want) as your back row and centres?

Back-row I'm not sure as there are a few good options. I think we would all agree with Shingler at blind-side if he returns, 7 and 8 we'd probably pick two of our many open-sides as Faletau may not be ready. Centres, whoever isn't injured. I would say put a fly-half at 12 but we're also looking a bit thin in that position. I still believe North could be better utilised at 13, especially playing outside a 'second five-eight.'

North at 13 I would like to see. Parkes I like but think you can find better at 12 and think he is lacking pace. Your choice in the back row is good no matter who gets picked

I am uncertain who we could use at centre, as we would possibly lose a lot that Parkes brings defensively etc. Ideally we could use a Williams type player, but then as I have said it could be a concern in other facets of the game.

Neither of our first choice centres are that good for an attacking game (IMO). Neither's passing is that great.

Owen Lane will be the starting Welsh 12 in times to come in my opinion.

He’s certainly got the bulk and good attacking play for a centre, LD. Has he played at 12 much? It’s certainly worth considering it given the dearth of centre options currently.

Also, as a winger has he got decent distribution skills? Not normally needed that much for a winger but, in the modern game, 12 needs to be a good passer and potentially decent with the boot too (unless we’re looking to go back to Warrenball!)

The Oracle wrote:He’s certainly got the bulk and good attacking play for a centre, LD. Has he played at 12 much? It’s certainly worth considering it given the dearth of centre options currently.

He's played center for Cardiff Blues, I do not know which one mind 12 or 13, but he has deffo had game time in the center.

Owen Lane plays outside centre, and has 2 appearances for Wales U20 at OC.

Blueschief wrote:Owen Lane plays outside centre, and has 2 appearances for Wales U20 at OC.

There you go guys.

So do you think he can play 12, given he has only played 13 or wing? I personally think they might move North inside before Lane, especially given that North has played centre internationally. That said, seeing as Norh is the established wing, perhaps they’d rather keep him there. It’s certainly interesting. Maybe the derbies might show something, especially seeing as Cardiff Blues have a fair bit of depth in the back three.

It has to be North at 13, he isn't doing enough on the wing. If he still isn't effective there then bench or out of the 23. I haven't seen much of Roberts this season, but he did look better than Parkes.

I always think that going from a back 3 player to 12 is a tough gig unless you go down the crash ball Jamie Roberts style. I wonder whether Hal Amos might be suited to it, but with the emergence of Ben Thomas, he's unlikely to play much there for the Blues.

The dream is to have players like Thomas and Owen Williams excel, gives us the option of a second ball player like we used to with Henson.

I'm really excited to see how the back row goes in the 6N, I just hope it doesn't come too early for a few. With the prospect of Ellis Jenkins and Taulupe Faletau coming back, we genuinely have a huge selection adding in Wainwright, Moriarty, Navidi, Tipuric, Shingler, James Davies along with guys on really good form like Basham, Griffiths, Boyde and Macleod.

My 1st choice back row if all were fit would be 6. Jenkins 7. Tipuric 8. Faletau with Wainwright benching.