England's Winter

First topic message reminder :

As per LT's original post:
New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill

T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo

This is the partnership now , you'd think. Neither will be tied down easily ; but if one goes early this innings could go very wrong...

Credit SA for some excellent bowling to plan since lunch.

Non-believers doubting Denly. Another solid quarter century.

Maharaj really bowling well to Stokes

Nearly had him lbw...good review I think by SA as it was always likely to be umpires call at worst so no real risk of wasting it...

Root on the other hand showing Joe Denly how to play spin.

Stokes very narrowly survives a review. Would agree this is such a key partnership. Pope to come next, but not much after that.

Root starting to take the spinner on.

That’s a good ball. Saffers on top.

England doing the collapsing thing now

Albeit that one has kept low from Rabada

Oh dear...

A snorter from Rabada does for Root ! Kept a bit low and the skipper is the fourth player to twenty plus but no fifty ...

England teetering. Pope was excellent in Cape Town but I wonder how he will handle Maharaj today ?

That 400 looking a long way off.

alfie wrote:Oh dear...

A snorter from Rabada does for Root ! Kept a bit low and the skipper is the fourth player to twenty plus but no fifty ...

England teetering.  Pope was excellent in Cape Town but I wonder how he will handle Maharaj today ?

That 400 looking a long way off.

But with the ball turning for the spinner and keeping low for the quick bowler, it might not be the road that it looked first thing. 300-350 might be a decent score (long way to go to get there still)

This is where the top three needs to find the right balance, there seems to be an inability to rotate the strike just to keep the scoreboard ticking.

dummy_half wrote:

alfie wrote:Oh dear...

A snorter from Rabada does for Root ! Kept a bit low and the skipper is the fourth player to twenty plus but no fifty ...

England teetering.  Pope was excellent in Cape Town but I wonder how he will handle Maharaj today ?

That 400 looking a long way off.

But with the ball turning for the spinner and keeping low for the quick bowler, it might not be the road that it looked first thing. 300-350 might be a decent score (long way to go to get there still)

Yes. Thinking that too. Although it seems spin is the main weapon ...and England are arguably not possessed of a lot of penetration in that area. Guess a lot depends on how the pitch develops with the days.

We will see. But right now they'd kill for anything over 300 I think.

Soul Requiem wrote:This is where the top three needs to find the right balance, there seems to be an inability to rotate the strike just to keep the scoreboard ticking.

Indeed that is the downside to having three grafters at the top...the reason Bayliss went with the (very ill-advised !) experiment of Jason Roy in the Ashes. Of course given the pitches in that series the three grafters would have been a much better idea .

On a flattish pitch when the top three go at less than two per over you are only a couple of wickets away from trouble. Guess it is the old risk/reward choice that influences so much in sport - and other pursuits if it come to that...

Still better than being three down for 40. But to become a really top team I suspect they'll need to develop one stroke player in the top three.

Stokes somehow surviving against Maharaj ...so far.

I confess to totally misjudging this pitch. Never dreamed it would spin like this . Not sure anyone did to be honest ...but I'm glad England didn't go silly and pick five pace bowlers

I'd say that Burns has found the right balance, striking at about 45 is what you want from your openers and is only marginally slower than Cook who wasn't the slouch he's sometimes portrayed as (47sr). Crawley and Denly are boundary hitters so as soon as you take that away there's no scoring option, no problem with Sibley attempting to hold things together but you can't have a top three all going at less than 40.

alfie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:This is where the top three needs to find the right balance, there seems to be an inability to rotate the strike just to keep the scoreboard ticking.

Indeed that is the downside to having three grafters at the top...the reason Bayliss went with the (very ill-advised !) experiment of Jason Roy in the Ashes.  Of course given the pitches in that series the three grafters would have been a much better idea .

On a flattish pitch when the top three go at less than two per over you are only a couple of wickets away from trouble. Guess it is the old risk/reward choice that influences so much in sport - and other pursuits if it come to that...

Still better than being three down for 40. But to become a really top team I suspect they'll need to develop one stroke player in the top three.

Think it's just a case of learning to rotate the strike against spin in the cases of Sibley and Denly. Really do get bogged down with no sweep shot in the armour (seemingly).

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:This is where the top three needs to find the right balance, there seems to be an inability to rotate the strike just to keep the scoreboard ticking.

Indeed that is the downside to having three grafters at the top...the reason Bayliss went with the (very ill-advised !) experiment of Jason Roy in the Ashes.  Of course given the pitches in that series the three grafters would have been a much better idea .

On a flattish pitch when the top three go at less than two per over you are only a couple of wickets away from trouble. Guess it is the old risk/reward choice that influences so much in sport - and other pursuits if it come to that...

Still better than being three down for 40. But to become a really top team I suspect they'll need to develop one stroke player in the top three.

Think it's just a case of learning to rotate the strike against spin in the cases of Sibley and Denly. Really do get bogged down with no sweep shot in the armour (seemingly).

Should get plenty of chances to work on that in Sri Lanka

But they weren't exactly racing against the pace bowlers either. To be fair , it seems this pitch is not so easy for scoring at all. They're young enough (not so much Denly) so we will see how they develop...

Soul Requiem wrote:I'd say that Burns has found the right balance, striking at about 45 is what you want from your openers and is only marginally slower than Cook who wasn't the slouch he's sometimes portrayed as (47sr). Crawley and Denly are boundary hitters so as soon as you take that away there's no scoring option, no problem with Sibley attempting to hold things together but you can't have a top three all going at less than 40.

Not bad with only a clip and a cut...
Cook often took some time to get going, and then caught up his strike rate after the first hour or so. Also, while not a flamboyant shot maker, he was very good at maximising his scoring when he got the ball in his areas. Hit the gaps rather than the fielders.

Like the way Pope has gone about things ... He and Stokes have at least made it to the new ball. Not often the new ball gets due before the team crosses 200 !

Maharaj might be getting a bit weary but still think the batsmen may be happier to see the back of him for the day...

Three beautiful boundaries in a row from Pope - run down to third man, on drive, cover drive.

Oof

Such a lovely talent is Ollie Pope. Gorgeous shots.

South Africa so desperate to get Stokes that they’ve burnt all their reviews. That was a terrible referral.

Pope has some serious talent, like that he's batting at 6 to ease himself into test cricket but think he'll wasted batting there long term.

Duty281 wrote:Such a lovely talent is Ollie Pope. Gorgeous shots.

South Africa so desperate to get Stokes that they’ve burnt all their reviews. That was a terrible referral.

Was a shocker ! Surprised Faf fell for that one... May live to regret that tomorrow if Maharaj is monstering the later order and needs a tight decision...

Pope really has played well. Though I shouldn't type that as he immediately slightly mistimes a pull

Important these late overs . Big difference between four down at the close and five or more with a still hard ball in the morning.

Soul Requiem wrote:Pope has some serious talent, like that he's batting at 6 to ease himself into test cricket but think he'll wasted batting there long term.

Reckon he will end up at three. But no hurry for that. Let him settle in first.

Could've been a lot better, could've been a lot worse. Decent day for both sides I'd say, England will be happy with only 4 wickets down, but SA have kept a lid on runs scored...and if they can have a good morning session will feel good about restricting England to below par.

Big day for Pope/Stokes/Buttler tomorrow

Agree with that, it’s about 50/50, maybe marginally in England’s favour with not having to bat last.

A good opening hour for South Africa tomorrow could see England fall short of 300. A good’un for England, with Pope and Stokes resettling, could provide the pathway for a magical 400+ total.

Decent day for England, the ingredients for a good batting line up are there they just need to start putting it all together instead of showing glimpses here and there. Pope and Stokes doing very well to claw it back.

Not meaning to bang on about the scoring rate too much but it does seem to have an adverse affect on Root who it appears looks under pressure to get things moving rather than just playing his usual way.

I'd call it a 60-40 day to England. Again, slightly annoying for the top 3 batsmen getting in then getting themselves out; sounds as though Root was a bit unlucky in getting one that kept low.

A slow day both in terms of runs and wickets - shows why slow and low pitches are not a great spectacle. Seamers don't create many opportunities and batsmen can't play through the ball safely. Both openers being out caught playing leg side flicks suggests it's not easy to time the ball, especially once the new ball hardness has gone.

Good from Stokes and Pope pulling it back round from a slightly wobbly position, even if Stokes has ridden his luck a bit against the spinner.

The 400+ prediction from this morning looks unrealistic, given that the pitch is spinning already. Another 100 or so from here I think will be competitive.

Copy and paste dummy. England not perfect but a hell of a lot better than I've become accustomed to over much of recent history.

SA will have to do better than they did in the last test first digs.

Hard to tell which way this is going. Doesn't look too bad but not much batting to come. Buttler not really in form and the Sam Curran batting specials seem a long time ago. Hard to say what Bess and Wood might do, they can both hold a bat. Broad obviously terrible now. Would be happy to see them cobble together 350

Soul Requiem wrote:Decent day for England, the ingredients for a good batting line up are there they just need to start putting it all together instead of showing glimpses here and there. Pope and Stokes doing very well to claw it back.

Not meaning to bang on about the scoring rate too much but it does seem to have an adverse affect on Root who it appears looks under pressure to get things moving rather than just playing his usual way.

I see it has been touched on earlier - but the two names who would spring to mind in recent times who would encapsulate what someone would describe as ‘proper Test match batting’ (horrible phrase) are Cook and Trott. Who bother struck at 47.

Sibley and Crawley are young, but Denly you’d hope would be better. It costs him his wicket a lot of the time.

It's all very well saying you cant have this or that or should do this or that but ultimately it's the players who are there that have to make the best of what they do. Denly has been much more effective as hes reigned himself in. Crawley is just lucky to be in tests at all. I'm sure they'd all love to be Smith Labuschagne but they are Crawley Sibley and Denly. People were in meltdown over Cook Strauss Trott ( during his period of averaging 50) being too slow scoring and putting pressure on KP up until we didn't have them. These arent the 3 best batsmen you'll see in test cricket but it's the first time in an age weve seen any england top 3 deal with the new ball consistently, including when sir cook was still a thing. I'll accept the slow scoring.
I'm not too sure about the impact on Root being too fair either, his slump/pressure has been long term and his scores havent been that bad this winter.
Pope the new Ian Bell. In time he should move over Stokes, and could be a longer term 3. There has to be another batsman who's demanding a place at 5/6 for that to happen (and presumably Denly who Ed smith apparently loves to get dropped). Maybe another why try to fix something that isn't a problem by changing something that's working for now. He will move up the order, but it's not a priority.

Given the relative inexperience of the England batting line-up, I would suggest that was a good opening day for the tourists.

Usual thing. Let's see how good the eventual England first-innings score is once SA have batted.

Stat nerds - Zak Crawley has bettered his high score in all 4 of his test innings so far. The record for innings that has happened in is 6

We believe Zak

The Denly LBW is one of those oddities in Cricket where the ball hitting the pad made no difference whatsoever and he wouldn't have been bowled but the laws state otherwise.

On the top three, they are not really going to be anything else than a stoic set of batsmen. Burns will come back into the side when fit and he has a few more scoring options. Denly is doing a job at the minute, he'll get a 30 and use up some overs. He's there to stop the likes of Stokes coming in before the 20th over. At the minute it's working and providing a platform.

I suppose the problem is, for most fans the lineup of Cook, Strauss, Trott, KP, Collingwood, Bell, Prior is still well within memory. It would be great to get back to something like that but that was probably a once every 30 years collection of talents. I think at the minute a top 7 with three or four very good players, and the other three who can contribute is progress

Should add, that top 7 probably rarely played together, but I'd expect most teams for quite a period featured at least five of them. It's no wonder England got to number one during that period

VTR wrote:On the top three, they are not really going to be anything else than a stoic set of batsmen. Burns will come back into the side when fit and he has a few more scoring options. Denly is doing a job at the minute, he'll get a 30 and use up some overs. He's there to stop the likes of Stokes coming in before the 20th over. At the minute it's working and providing a platform.

I suppose the problem is, for most fans the lineup of Cook, Strauss, Trott, KP, Collingwood, Bell, Prior is still well within memory. It would be great to get back to something like that but that was probably a once every 30 years collection of talents. I think at the minute a top 7 with three or four very good players, and the other three who can contribute is progress

Would agree with that ...with the caveat that right at the moment you could only call Root and Stokes "very good players" ; while Pope once he's played a bit more might well fall into that category we had better not get ahead of ourselves. Until we actually see more than one batsman averaging over about thirty five we're talking potential rather than actuality .

As to day one I reckon England probably edged it in the end thanks to this fifth wicket stand . A lot depends on the morning session tomorrow though as a clatter of wickets could undo a lot of good work : 350 would be a decent score but 285 not so hot ...
The pitch is hardly a minefield though scoring is rather restricted . All six batsmen made over twenty five so staying in hasn't been difficult ; which suggests England may have to work pretty hard when they bowl. Going to miss Anderson for his ability to tie things down even when wickets aren't falling. A big test for Bess who may need to match the Maharaj effort to allow the pacemen time and runs to work with even if he isn't expected to run through SA himself. (Leach might think it is a pity he wasn't fit this week as this might have suited him rather well - particularly in the fourth innings)

Lot of cricket to be played yet. Probably won't be too pretty but it might just be another good scrap - and winning the toss may turn out decisive. If you like tuba playing bands it should be a pleasant enough place to watch five days of cricket

alfie wrote:
....

As to day one I reckon England probably edged it in the end thanks to this fifth wicket stand . A lot depends on the morning session tomorrow though as a clatter of wickets could undo a lot of good work : 350 would be a decent score but 285 not so hot ...
The pitch is hardly a minefield though scoring is rather restricted . All six batsmen made over twenty five so staying in hasn't been difficult ; which suggests England may have to work pretty hard when they bowl. Going to miss Anderson for his ability to tie things down even when wickets aren't falling. A big test for Bess who may need to match the Maharaj effort to allow the pacemen time and runs to work with even if he isn't expected to run through SA himself.  (Leach might think it is a pity he wasn't fit this week as this might have suited him rather well - particularly in the fourth innings)

Lot of cricket to be played yet. Probably won't be too pretty but it might just be another good scrap - and winning the toss may turn out decisive. If you like tuba playing bands it should be a pleasant enough place to watch five days of cricket

Hi Alfie - after play on Sky's The Cricket Debate (the one Bob Willis used to do), my man Stewart said he would settle for 375 if offered that now whilst Robert Croft (who spoke with a lot of sense) went for between 375 and 400. I'm with you and would take 350 at this stage. Could of course be a lot more if Stokes and His Holiness crack on but could be a fair bit less if a couple of wickets fall early; we all know that script.

As per day 1 of the last Test, a great effort from Maharaj in line with your post. Following on from an earlier post from Olly, Stewart was appreciative of Denly's efforts for the team and sympathetic towards him not getting a sizeable individual score but stressed the need for him to find ''a safe get off strike stroke'' against the spinner. Not just for this Test and series but especially in Sri Lanka where it'll be so important to not let the spinners settle.

Both Stewart and Croft thought South Africa's batsmen would be looking to get after Bess more than they did last time. Very likely, I would say. Assuming so, whether that results in him getting clobbeered or taking wickets will be interesting ....

VTR wrote:On the top three, they are not really going to be anything else than a stoic set of batsmen. Burns will come back into the side when fit and he has a few more scoring options. Denly is doing a job at the minute, he'll get a 30 and use up some overs. He's there to stop the likes of Stokes coming in before the 20th over. At the minute it's working and providing a platform.

I suppose the problem is, for most fans the lineup of Cook, Strauss, Trott, KP, Collingwood, Bell, Prior is still well within memory. It would be great to get back to something like that but that was probably a once every 30 years collection of talents. I think at the minute a top 7 with three or four very good players, and the other three who can contribute is progress

Very much so. The players we have are doing what they can. Im sure Bangladesh would love to have a top 3 who could score at 4 an over and average 50 but it aint gonna happen.

Also worth noting that whilst Denlys getting salted for not rotating the strike and only being able to score boundaries Pope who apparently invented sliced bread scored barely any faster and with almost all his runs coming from boundaries yesterday. Denly gets out when he tries to score quickly because he isnt very good, Sibley too to an extent. Crawley is just doing everything he can to stay in, as far as Im concerned when you have a batsman that inexperienced and who wasnt ever really expected to play anything he gets is a bonus.
I think you're pushing to say we have a top 7 with four very good players mind, Stokes only counts as very good because hes an all rounder to my mind ...the guy is still avergaing in the 30s with the bat and I cant see any others who deserve the tag. Pope is getting there but still pretty unproven, Buttler is only an average keeper and decent bat in tests. That aside the general point stands, this is a better performing batting line up than we have seen for some time even if the quality of some players isnt that great. And what really counts is the returns, ask Vince and Ramprakash.
Denly Sibley Crawley are doing what they can in the way they can, sure they need to improve for England to get where they aspire to be but bringing Burns back in strengthens that and adds a little more impetus. Its the best we have managed in a long time, yes they need to seek improvements but that has to be balanced against the risk of putting us back where we were. Promoting the likes of Mo, Bairstow and Root all ended badly, give Pope time before making him 3.

Denly was striking at 25 yesterday compared to Pope going at 49.

I think you look to much at the overall numbers Goose, Stokes may have an average of 36 but on current from he's a mid 40's player as this sustained period of form shows.

In a period where Australia have two batsmen averaging in th mid 70's is mid 40's "very good"?
TBF though did a quick fact check and hes actually averaged mid 50s if you cherry pick from the last test in the west indies ...so OK yes I retract my comment on Stokes, his recent form is as good as Bairstows magic year That gives England 2 or 3 very good batsmen, ones very fresh and another struggling with the weight of captaincy.
Noones going to convince me its a good batting line up, but theres encouragement they are heading to a better place. And sometimes that involves making the best of players abilities, Denly has scored more and lasted longer since he started concentrating on staying in.

To be honest I see Labuschagne as a player who will maintain his current form, give it a year and his Ballance like start will see him quickly descend into the low 40's.

Rain doesn't seem to have made much difference to conditions ...still looks flat and slow and SA aren't doing anything inspiring in these early overs.
No Philander yet. Odd. Ball still new. Thought he might swing it.

Stokes another fifty If he really gets going this score will mount a bit faster...

Rabada banned for the fourth test. Huge boost for England.

Stokes looks to have settled pretty quickly. Odd that Philander didn’t start with the ball.

Hundred stand now ...and fifty for Pope

Philander on but not exactly on song that over. Good start to the day for England at 252/4

Duty281 wrote:Rabada banned for the fourth test. Huge boost for England.

Stokes looks to have settled pretty quickly. Odd that Philander didn’t start with the ball.

What did Rabada do ?

He celebrated the wicket of Root that's about it, as a fan of fast bowling I enjoy the passion he plays with and the powers that be want to stump that.

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Rabada banned for the fourth test. Huge boost for England.

Stokes looks to have settled pretty quickly. Odd that Philander didn’t start with the ball.

What did Rabada do ?

He got a demerit point for the celebration of Root's wicket - which takes him beyond the threshold of 4 demerit points in 24 months, which results in a game ban.

(Should say getting a demerit point for that is a nonsense - if that was worth a demerit point then Imran Tahir should have barely ever played)

Tahir should be banned for the irritation of his celebration.

Someone is in the mood again today, Stokes' innings are so well timed nowadays.