England's Winter

First topic message reminder :

As per LT's original post:
New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill

T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo

Hmm. Reckon authorities overreacted to Rabada then...though I guess he has "form".
I am sure SA fans will contrast his treatment with the wet lettuce slap for Buttler after his expletive-laden tirade at Philander last week.
But that is the law I guess.

Meanwhile , the wheels are coming off for SA as Stokes is going up through the gears...England going at nearly six per over today , even Maharaj getting some tap : at 295/4 that 400 is looking back on the table. Think they looked flat from the start today and unless something changes at lunch I can see England running away with this...

alfie wrote:Hmm. Reckon authorities overreacted to Rabada then...though I guess he has "form".
I am sure SA fans will contrast his treatment with the wet lettuce slap for Buttler after his expletive-laden tirade at Philander last week.
But that is the law I guess.

To be fair Alfie - Buttler got the same punishment. He just doesn't have the priors on his record that Rabada has.
Think Atherton and Holding were spot on, on comms. Maybe some common sense is needed in the rules, but Rabada also has had enough warnings. As Holding put it, "you can drive over 30mph in a 30mph zone, but if you get caught, don't go blaming the speed limit"

Exceptional first hour from Stokes and Pope. No excuses not to reach 400+ from here and Buttler and Curran will have an excellent platform to play their natural games (for once!), although the slowness of the pitch may not aid them.

Interesting to note that Philander is the least bowled South African bowler.

No I get that , Olly. Under the rules this was going to happen. But I think most might think Buttler's verbals were more contrary to cricket etiquette than Rabada just crowing near the batsman.
Rabada needs to pull his head in ...he clearly doesn't learn from experience. Suspect had another bowler done exactly the same celebration the umpires might not have reported him at all ?

Won't comment on the play for risk of a jinx!

Re my comments on the batting lineup, I'm not saying we have four very good players yet, just that's an acceptable aim to work towards. Rather than expect us to suddenly find the Aussie top 6 from the 90s. Those four might be Burns, Root, Stokes, Pope but too early to say for definite. Then add three others who aren't completely out of their depth and it's a step in the right direction

A top 7 who average 280-300 between them should be the aim.

Yes something like that. Two guys who average 45, two on 40, three on 35 would be towards the lower end of that. Given how rare it is for England players to average 50 I don't see a combination pushing towards 300

alfie wrote:No I get that , Olly.  Under the rules this was going to happen. But I think most might think Buttler's verbals were more contrary to cricket etiquette than Rabada just crowing near the batsman.
Rabada needs to pull his head in ...he clearly doesn't learn from experience. Suspect had another bowler done exactly the same celebration the umpires might not have reported him at all ?

Quite possibly but Rabada has lost the right to much leniency due to his ''previous'' and that is his own stupid fault as Athertonton and Holding were saying; as you might expect, the latter more strongly.

Duty - excellent heads up on this from you beating the Sky comms.

Fair enough , VTR. Pope is certainly looking the most "at home at this level" of any New England bats since...Root.
Though he did have that brief two match experience a couple of summers back ; which might have actually been the best thing that could have happened to him ...He has come back in a more relaxed player. Let us hope he can keep this up on more challenging surfaces : the signs are good.

313/4 and if they don't get 400 now I will be astonished ! Just hope they can bowl SA out twice on this.

alfie wrote:Fair enough , VTR.  Pope is certainly looking the most "at home at this level" of any New England bats since...Root.
Though he did have that brief two match experience a couple of summers back ; which might have actually been the best thing that could have happened to him ...He has come back in a more relaxed player. Let us hope he can keep this up on more challenging surfaces : the signs are good.

Throwing him in at 3 as a 20 year old was still crazy. He will move up the order as he has too much class to now stay at 6, but for now it is good that he can settle into test cricket.

4,000 runs and 100 wickets for Stokes now - only Sobers and Kallis have got to that quicker. Decent company

My one fear for Pope when he came back into the side was that he was going to look too good and with that comes media scrutiny and heightened expectation. The big benefit of batting at 6 is that the majority of the time he'll be batting with the senior players in Root, Stokes and Buttler as opposed to the stodgy top three.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:No I get that , Olly.  Under the rules this was going to happen. But I think most might think Buttler's verbals were more contrary to cricket etiquette than Rabada just crowing near the batsman.
Rabada needs to pull his head in ...he clearly doesn't learn from experience. Suspect had another bowler done exactly the same celebration the umpires might not have reported him at all ?

Quite possibly but Rabada has lost the right to much leniency due to his ''previous'' and that is his own stupid fault as Athertonton and Holding were saying; as you might expect, the latter more strongly.

Duty - excellent heads up on this from you beating the Sky comms.

Just saw the replay of Rabada celebrating Crawley's wicket in that previous Test : does rather underline your point , guildford . Can't quite agree with KP & co sympathy for du Plessis though : surely the captain needs to tell his bowler in clear terms how not to behave - especially when he is "on ice".

Just to be clear : I don't have a lot of sympathy for Rabada. But unfortunately a lot of the cricket world think that players from different countries (and , dare we say it , different ethnicities ?) are not treated equally. So I would have preferred this hadn't come to a head here . Maybe he will learn this time.

LondonTiger wrote:

alfie wrote:Fair enough , VTR.  Pope is certainly looking the most "at home at this level" of any New England bats since...Root.
Though he did have that brief two match experience a couple of summers back ; which might have actually been the best thing that could have happened to him ...He has come back in a more relaxed player. Let us hope he can keep this up on more challenging surfaces : the signs are good.

Throwing him in at 3 as a 20 year old was still crazy. He will move up the order as he has too much class to now stay at 6, but for now it is good that he can settle into test cricket.

Well we will have to disagree about throwing him in at a young age , LT. I reckon it did him good ; just as Crawley's - arguably early - introduction now will help him later , however he fares in the short term.

If they're good enough , they're old enough. And if they have what it takes , they will survive early setbacks and be better for it.

Hundred for Stokes

Aargh...too much praise for Pope on here has done for him...

No: saved by the drs. !  Just.  That looked out live but the angle has saved him...

Everything going England's way this morning. Pope wasn't at all sure he should use that review ...just as well he did !

Rabada’s celebration after dismissing Crawley looked worse than the Root one!

Turning into a perfect morning for England. Stokes has been masterful again.

Stokes is just ridiculous, you'd struggle to name a better player at the moment

Apparently the last time England made 400+ in a first innings was Perth 2017. England won that game lost by an innings after collapsing from 368/4 to 403 all out and then conceding 650+ (Mitch Marsh got 180!).

Perfect session for England. Cruising with the bat.

Only worry is that this pitch is now looking so toothless you have to wonder if they'll be able to bowl SA out in reasonable time . If it doesn't deteriorate this could be a lot of hard work for all bowlers and no result at the end of it. Which from this position would be a big disappointment for England.

That's for the future . Well played Stoke and Pope

I'm still not convinced that was actually Mitch Marsh. But then again, that Dowrich/Holder partnership....

VTR wrote:I'm still not convinced that was actually Mitch Marsh. But then again, that Dowrich/Holder partnership....

Watling and Santner last year too, letting Shai Hope score two 100's takes some beating. It's a special talent that England have in making average players look brilliant for a short time.

An excellent morning for England. As well as obviously deserved plaudits for Stokes and Pope, perhaps a further touch of credit for yesterday's top four in going some way to blunting the buzz of South Africa's bowlers in this session. They seemed dispirited too often and cerainly as lunch came round.

I've watched most of today's play but not all. Have I missed any explanation for Philander bowling so little?

As for Pope, I've seen a lot of him for Surrey in their home games. He's certainly aided by batting at 6 here (as he does, or at 5, in the county game) and was put at a disadvantage when he batted higher on Test debut than he had ever done before. However, he's so talented in both his stroke play and his reading of what is required for any particular innings, that - like cream - he was always going to rise to the top. He's not there yet but I'm sure it won't be long.

alfie wrote:Perfect session for England. Cruising with the bat.

Only worry is that this pitch is now looking so toothless you have to wonder if they'll be able to bowl SA out in reasonable time . If it doesn't deteriorate this could be a lot of hard work for all bowlers and no result at the end of it. Which from this position would be a big disappointment for England.

That's for the future . Well played Stoke and Pope

Alfie - yeah, but ... I still take a lot of comfort that our 350 target last night is now easily attainable and that we should post north of 400. That will be a proper first innings challenge for a physically and perhaps also mentally tired South Africa. Doesn't gurantee an England win - far, far too early to be speculating about that - but, as goose might say, we'll really need to muck up to lose from here.

Btw, for those in the UK following the Knight / Key discussion about Rabada's ban, I'm fully with Key.

alfie wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

alfie wrote:Fair enough , VTR.  Pope is certainly looking the most "at home at this level" of any New England bats since...Root.
Though he did have that brief two match experience a couple of summers back ; which might have actually been the best thing that could have happened to him ...He has come back in a more relaxed player. Let us hope he can keep this up on more challenging surfaces : the signs are good.

Throwing him in at 3 as a 20 year old was still crazy. He will move up the order as he has too much class to now stay at 6, but for now it is good that he can settle into test cricket.

Well we will have to disagree about throwing him in at a young age , LT.  I reckon it did him good ; just as Crawley's - arguably early - introduction now will help him later , however he fares in the short term.

If they're good enough , they're old enough.  And if they have what it takes , they will survive early setbacks and be better for it.

Hundred for Stokes

Pope was good enough to be capped - but was crazy to select him at 3 when he had never batted above 5 at the time.

Duty281 wrote:Rabada’s celebration after dismissing Crawley looked worse than the Root one!

Turning into a perfect morning for England. Stokes has been masterful again.

According to TalkSport2's commentary he was unofficially warned for the Crawley one. The two Saffer commentators (KP and one other whose name I did not pick up) both said they have no sympathy with Rabada.

Bloody Mark Butcher.

In between deliveries "Stokes is masterful. Treating the bowling as throw downs, South Africa cannot get him out"

LondonTiger wrote:Bloody Mark Butcher.

In between deliveries "Stokes is masterful. Treating the bowling as throw downs, South Africa cannot get him out"

Was a good jinx

Still surely set up for well over 400 with five wickets in hand ? And they can all handle a bat to a degree at least.

Paterson will feel better for having a wicket at last. I didn't think too much of his bowling yesterday : was thinking SA may have erred in bringing him in to replace Pretorius - and thereby weakening the batting. He is bowling quite nicely to Buttler at the moment .

Buttler didn't last long...

I believe they define that as a "soft dismissal"

Seems Buttler's winter has been a combination of when he's got himself in, he's run out of partners - and when he's had an opportunity like today, to get in with a established partner, he's out cheaply.

So now the 400 is back in the melting pot...

Need Sam Curran to have a good innings. Maharaj will be relieved not to have to bowl at Stokes any more. And puts a bit more pressure back on to Pope as he looks towards his hundred.

Not sure what Buttler was doing there. Nothing special about the ball...just popped it back to him like warmup catching practice...

Good chance for Sam Curran to build an innings rather than try and thrash everything. Not sure if he can do that though? The ability is there but maybe not the temperament at this stage

Not sure if it's team instructions or a personal decision but Buttler needs to be playing aggressively, a nothing ball such as that should have been dispatched into row Z.

Soul Requiem wrote:Not sure if it's team instructions or a personal decision but Buttler needs to be playing aggressively, a nothing ball such as that should have been dispatched into row Z.

A white ball probably would have been. But in truth the constant expectation that Buttler is going to produce that sort of performance in a Test Match is a bit of a fantasy. He's played a lot of matches now for just one century and an average of 32...and when he keeps wicket that average shrinks to 29. At one time I thought he might settle as a number six bat ; but I think that place is taken now...

Curran is getting on with things : just as well as Pope seems to be getting becalmed since Stokes got out. At 386/6 England are still looking good but will want to get on with things...

alfie wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Not sure if it's team instructions or a personal decision but Buttler needs to be playing aggressively, a nothing ball such as that should have been dispatched into row Z.

A white ball probably would have been.  But in truth the constant expectation that Buttler is going to produce that sort of performance in a Test Match is a bit of a fantasy. He's played a lot of matches now for just one century and an average of 32...and when he keeps wicket that average shrinks to 29. At one time I thought he might settle as a number six bat ; but I think that place is taken now...

Curran is getting on with things : just as well as Pope seems to be getting becalmed since Stokes got out. At 386/6 England are still looking good but will want to get on with things...

The positive is that Buttler has kept absolutely fine (cue a clanger dropped in the SA innings). If he doesn't get a score in the final few innings of this tour it does present an interesting selection dilemma for Sri Lanka...with Foakes having done so well there last time.

Albeit Foakes really didn't help himself this past county summer - an average of 26 in 23 innings, with a high score of 69. Not exactly knocking that door down

I don't think you'd be selecting Foakes based on his batting, in that regard Buttler and Bairstow are simply better but his keeping is head and shoulders above the pair and in the Sub continent that is so important.

Buttler should be next on the chopping board. Some people will do some mental gymnastics to try tell the world he’s the best choice, but they come across as desperate. Highlight reel Twitter fans

The wicket keeper question will continue to run...it is an England tradition

Should be happy I guess they have three perfectly reasonable possibles to choose from depending on form ...although they still managed to end up with a fourth in NZ !

The Holy Grail of 400 has arrived. Hallelujah

Now if Pope can manage another six runs...

Curran absolutely murdering the bowling ...but alas caught on the boundary now for a rapid 44.
Did what the team needed

I'd be happy with another thirty runs , scored quickly. Then we can see what the bowlers can do.

Excellent innings from Curran. For once he came in against some weary bowlers and fielders and injected some tempo into the innings.

Now Pope needs to get his ton and start playing some shots. 450+ would be very welcome.

alfie wrote:Curran absolutely murdering the bowling ...but alas caught on the boundary now for a rapid 44.
Did what the team needed

I'd be happy with another thirty runs , scored quickly.  Then we can see what the bowlers can do.

Yep get Pope to his century, then swing the willow until we're all out.

As for Sam Curran, I bloody love Sam Curran

Pope struggling his way through this last fifteen runs...but there it is now with a lovely clip past mid on

First of many I think

OK now chaps lets throw the bat.

Sure you could go on to 500 plus but frankly if you need that many you are probably looking at a draw ... A bit of rain about tomorrow I heard so need to move the game on...

alfie wrote:Pope struggling his way through this last fifteen runs...but there it is now with a lovely clip past mid on

First of many I think

Just 15,593 more runs to go until he breaks Tendulkar's record.

Pope

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:Pope struggling his way through this last fifteen runs...but there it is now with a lovely clip past mid on

First of many I think

Just 15,593 more runs to go until he breaks Tendulkar's record.

OK that's putting some pressure on the young man

What is it with Four Letter batsmen for England ? The three youngest centurions for England now Cook , Root - and Pope .

So ...back after tea. What's the plan ?

I say follow the guildford strategy : run 'em around for a few minutes and then declare so they have to rush off and pad up

Would like a solid go at them tonight while they're obviously going to be tired. And the way that ball just jumped at Pope the sooner the better...if the ball is going to do that now it's a good time to bowl. Plus we don't want a bowler getting hit.

Must say I'm surprised to see see that ball leap like that. Rabada seems to have gained a yard of pace suddenly...

This little passage of play isn’t really gaining anything for England, though Wood’s got the right idea with the bat.

Thank you, Alfie. Bang on.

Assuming we're not all out, bat 150 overs for 450+ and then declare would be my call.

Wood thinks he's Ben Stokes

Enjoying himself. Not sure Maharaj is ...

Wood determined to make the most of his annual test innings