France vs England - Match Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 2nd February 15:00 - France (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


Recent Form

France:
20th October 2019: Wales - Lost 19-20
6th Ocober 2019: Tonga - Won 23-21
2nd October 2019: USA - Won 33-9
21st September 2019: Argentina - Won 23-21
30th August 2019: Italy - Won 47-19


England
2nd November 2019: South Africa - Lost 12-32
26th October 2019: New Zealand: Won 19:7
19th October 2019: Australia - won 40-16
5th October 2019: Argentina - Won 39-10
26th September 2019: USA - Won 45-7


Head to Head

Matches Played - 90
Wins - England 49, France 34
Draws - 7
Tries - England 165, France 143



Teams

France:


Bouthier; Thomas, Vakatawa, Fickou, Penaud; Ntamack, Dupont; Baille, Marchand, Haouas, Le Roux, Willemse, Cros, Ollivon (c), Alldritt

Reps: Mauvaka, Poirot, Bamba, Palu, Woki, Serin, Jalibert, Rattez


England


Furbank; May, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), Daly; Ford, B Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Ewels, Lawes, Underhill, Curry.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Devoto, Joseph

[quinsforever]

kruis made a big impact. not sure why he didnt start frankly.

lineout was wierdly leaky both teams.

genge huge impact. especially on ntamacks knee.

farrell uncharacteristic fumbles.

furbank had one decent carry, otherwise a match to forget for him. i'd keep him for scotland though.

curry shocker in the scrum. twice he couldnt effectively keep the ball in and it cost england both times.

we clearly lacked someone who could break the gainline. no billy, mako or manu made us look toothless.

may. 2 incredible tries from almost nothing.

[TightHEAD]

Who was the old boy sat next to Eddie?

[Guest]

No 7&1/2

Or Tomos Williams, Gareth Davies, Rhys Webb, Ali Price, violli, Connor Murray, Cooney...

Wales and France have enviable depth at 9. You're missing several French scrum halves there as well.

[Heuer27]

May certainly saved England’s blushes. He was razor sharp when given a wee bit of space. Certainly more than made up for his mistake in the first half.
He was the only English back to look dangerous.
Lawes was immense too I thought. The rest were fairly anonymous unless it was a set piece where England were clearly better.

[Rinsure]

May certainly saved England’s blushes. He was razor sharp when given a wee bit of space. Certainly more than made up for his mistake in the first half.
He was the only English back to look dangerous.
Lawes was immense too I thought. The rest were fairly anonymous unless it was a set piece where England were clearly better.

re: Set piece - only in the second-half, post replacements I thought. Genge and LCD looked really up for it.

The Sarries guys - Kruis excepted - all had below par games, I would say. Surprised Ford was taken off rather than Farrell.

[Heaf]

So ignoring the really poor performance from England the dodgy try made the difference ....

In a 7 point game...bear in mind we only lost the 2007 world cup by 9 points because a 5 pointer was correctly disallowed

Sorry not following your point?

[Guest]

I think Ewells needs removed and replaced in the squad.

He was a waste of a player.

Again, I agree GF. Launch would have been a good addition today.

The grass is always greener. This wasn't an issue of personnel other than maybe needing specialist back rows. Launchbury wouldn't have added to much. Rugby is a team game. The issue is maybe the emotions like I said pre game. Definite world cup hangover in my opinion but also the Saracens saga must have taken its toll. Cannot have helped things but equally you cant make excuses just look at Wales last year with what was happening with the Ospreys. England lost as a team, particularly up front. Have to say it was a performance similar to the world cup final and Farrell was again poor when behind a struggling pack and as a captain.

[Heaf]

May certainly saved England’s blushes. He was razor sharp when given a wee bit of space. Certainly more than made up for his mistake in the first half.
He was the only English back to look dangerous.
Lawes was immense too I thought. The rest were fairly anonymous unless it was a set piece where England were clearly better.

re: Set piece - only in the second-half, post replacements I thought. Genge and LCD looked really up for it.

The Sarries guys - Kruis excepted - all had below par games, I would say. Surprised Ford was taken off rather than Farrell.

Maybe the issues at Sarries are having an effect on them?

[No 7&1/2]

Launchbury would have made a huge difference. Class player but injured.

[Rinsure]

May certainly saved England’s blushes. He was razor sharp when given a wee bit of space. Certainly more than made up for his mistake in the first half.
He was the only English back to look dangerous.
Lawes was immense too I thought. The rest were fairly anonymous unless it was a set piece where England were clearly better.

re: Set piece - only in the second-half, post replacements I thought. Genge and LCD looked really up for it.

The Sarries guys - Kruis excepted - all had below par games, I would say. Surprised Ford was taken off rather than Farrell.

Maybe the issues at Sarries are having an effect on them?

That was my implication, yes.

[Rinsure]

Launchbury would have made a huge difference. Class player but injured.

Ahhh, yeah. Forgot he was injured. Ta.

[Barney McGrew did it]

Don’t think Eddie will learn anything particular from that. He’s a grown up who’s been in the game a long time. England have weaknesses that can be exploited and frankly aren’t quite as good as some think they are. No RWC19 & no GS20 just suggests nice try-no cigar. It doesn’t help that we’re still squabbling about FB & SH – 2 vital positions that Eddie has struggled with for quite a while. A no 8 that is made of glass, and a centre that we’re just waiting for the next break-down. I think Eddie needs to do the hard work over the next few years and accept we’ll lose games.

[Heuer27]

Jones just needs to pick a balanced team .

Farrell to ten , pick a proper centre partnership,  someone more dynamic at 9, Dombrandt at 8, lawes , Kruis in the boiler room , swap out the front rows  and the jobs done . Lots of changes though so it won’t happen but the pack that finished was better than the one that started.

Hope he doesn’t though cause it’ll give us more of a chance next week.

[formerly known as Sam]

Quite true dave.
Could be sam. I think we both know if the midfield is devoto and Joseph the fly half is farrell though.

Sadly that's true, doesn't matter how badly he plays he's the captain and so will start.

[carpet baboon]

Having just seen it back can see cowen dickie getting cited.
Elbow to the back of the head on a player on the ground

[No 7&1/2]

Not a chance that's hes going to get a ban for that.

[maestegmafia]

Well done France really well played great result. Don’t think you’re close to being world beaters yet but this team and their back room staff have turned a corner.

[carpet baboon]

Not a chance that's hes going to get a ban for that.

Driving your elbow In to the back of someone's head dosent deserve a ban?
Well I disagree.

[majesticimperialman]

Well done France really well played great result. Don’t think you’re close to being world beaters yet but this team and their back room staff have turned a corner.

I agree a Great result for France. I do think the England may have been a little bit complacent coming in to the this game.
Just shows what new coaches can do to a team that may of been a lacking in confidence for a few years.

Well done France,

[No 7&1/2]

If he did that I'd agree. Thing is you're basing that on 1 angle where the other shows its merely hands on the back. Good shot of Ollivon celebrating on the flaw oblivious to French team mates trying to start a fight. Go and have another look.

[whocares]

Well bloody good results for us thanks to an England team being AWOL for most of the first 60 minutes . Conditions were not great but probably suited us in the end as we benefitted from England mistakes. Overall were more clinical and also got maybe some help from Nigel Owens so lot of stars were aligned. Our rush défense was good but still think this what left too much space to Jonny May. Let’s see if we can capitalise on this victory before saying there is real improvements but its certainly good for the confidence.

[maestegmafia]

Well bloody good results for us thanks to an England team being AWOL for most of the first 60 minutes . Conditions were not great but probably suited us in the end as we benefitted from England mistakes. Overall were more clinical and also got maybe some help from Nigel Owens so lot of stars were aligned. Our rush défense was good but still think this what left too much space to Jonny May. Let’s see if we can capitalise on this victory before saying there is real improvements but its certainly good for the confidence.

You must be Wally happy with that result, looks like France are moving in the right direction

[Taylorman]

Think theres something about getting some non French coaching in there for a change.

[No 7&1/2]

Nabbed these comments from the RFU site but they pretty much sum up why I'm not too disappointed today.

"It was one of those things, but full credit to the French. They played the conditions well. It’s like we forgot how to play rugby in the first half.

"We were slow out of the blocks, we were sorry for ourselves and out of kilter,” said Jones.

“We let the situation get to us, but we took responsibility magnificently at half time."

England defeated by France in ParisRed Roses open Six Nations with victoryEngland men U20s seal dramatic late win

Jones also says his side failed to win the battle at the gainline but refused to blame that on being without both Vunipola brothers, as well as centre Manu Tuilagi – who went off midway through the first half with a groin injury.

"You miss good players and missing those three - the Vunipolas and Manu Tuilagi - are difficult to replace, but we have to find ways around it,” he said. “That is not an excuse for us, Manu was fully fit.”

Despite the defeat, Jones says he proud of how side fought back in the second period in France.

"We are disappointed today in our first-half performance but I have a lot of admiration for way we came back in the second,” he said.

“We have to pick ourselves up and go to Murrayfield and have a bit of fun. The game could have been ugly for us but the response of the players was outstanding.'

Seems to out to bed the theory that tuilagi was carrying an injury which seemed to be made up on the cuff during the game. Shame as he was bounding over the gain line with glee.

[maestegmafia]

What happened to Tuilagi? Why did he go off?

[No 7&1/2]

According to the quotes above. A groin injury.

[Taylorman]

"Vunipola brothers, as well as centre Manu Tuilagi" have said all along theyre a different side completely without the three. Showed last year.

[maestegmafia]

According to the quotes above. A groin injury.

Daly to 13? Slade is out. Or Devoti and Farrell in the centre?

[Collapse2005]

"Vunipola brothers, as well as centre Manu Tuilagi" have said all along theyre a different side completely without the three. Showed last year.

England are still a good side but not the same team without the Vunapolas.

[mikey_dragon]

Interesting France. They've some really good individuals, now they're playing like more of a team. For England that game was quite possibly the difference between winning the championship and finishing 5th, because I fancy Scotland next week at their ground. Then I figure things will just get worse from there.

Hope you enjoyed the match hersh .

[Guest]

England miss Billy Vunipola particularly because they have no other outstanding number 8. But I think Marler is a better prop than Mako to be honest. Tuilagi is the x factor player and on another day, when their pack is on the front foot, Joseph can look world class. You can look at individuals but there have been many games where the Vunipolas have looked very ordinary and Tuilagi's injury record should come as no surprise.

Long term for England they have to look at sorting out the captaincy. I'm not sure Farrell can do the job Hartley did.

[No 7&1/2]

There are a multitude of options Maes. What I'd personally do would be ford farrell and joseph. That's not the main questions though which are 8 and 9.

[Recwatcher16]

England made too many individual and team errors to win away from home.

That said, the second French try was very marginal, there were two deflections and it didn't come off Lawes arm twice and the offside line wasnt policed at all.
Can see Daly going back to fullback, as clearly difficult for Furbank to come into the line to create the overlap and when he did, then dropped the ball. The scrum was pretty dominant but didn't always get a reward and the amount of diving off feet and sealing off the ball is a blight on the game but goes unpunished, as do the in-line lineout throws.
For the next game a few players might be put back in their normal slots and with an established no.8 - even Ben Morgan could have done a job today as it was not a high paced game, cut out the errors and England will be in business.
Pretty bored of England nearly always starting and finishing the tournament away from home but apparently it is a random draw.

[maestegmafia]

There are a multitude of options Maes.  What I'd personally do would be ford farrell and joseph. That's not the main questions though which are 8 and 9.

Young’s wasn’t flash. Kicked away too much possession. It seemed as though england had a game plan to kick to the opposition and defend but that wasn’t working and they lacked options.

Many going off made a big difference as thee was no one to keep Frances defence honest when Joseph came on. I thought Joseph looked out of place. But he probably hadn’t rained in that line enough recently where as ford Farrell and Manu had been a constant selection for the last few games.

[MMaaxx]

As a rugby fan I am delighted at the prospect of this French team. They have been far too quiet the last decade. Welcome back France!

Eddie I think is still suffering from PTSD of the RWC final. So many of his selections seemed to an attempt to replicate the physicality of the Boks such as Lawes on flank (ala PsDT) as an example. It meant them taking a step back. England was developing well into a mix of Bok like physicality and All Black precision at the RWC. They have enough players and depth to not play so many people out of position.

Most will disagree with me but the more I watch Itoje the more I think he is overrated. When the going gets tough Itoje is often nowhere to be seen.

Re-watch the key 10 minutes around the 20 minute mark of the RWC final when England were camped on the Bok line. Itoje was passive, pedestrian and completely ineffectual. He has all the skills and athleticism but lacks the hard edge of the greats especially in tough moments.

So good having international rugby back and here's to a great tournament!

[Yoda]

The danger is to over analyse, England did enough to get the win with seven failed entries into the French 22. Manu was a massive loss as is slade I think. Who wouldn't miss Billy? The French were good and our error count was shocking - sometimes it's not your day. I am happy we showed some fight, more than the wc final anyway. I'm pretty sure the tmo got the decision wrong which didn't help but the officiating team didn't make the England players have butter fingers. I couldn't help thinking how France hadn't had the rub of the green last year with those silly errors vs Wales so swings and roundabouts. The issue I had was that dupont didn't get mom. As a scrum half I really loved his game especially when picking off curry the inexperienced counted and ran rings around poor Ben youngs. I hope they take this defeat in the right way and use it rather than beat themselves up. Not liking the two away matches at the start and didn't think it would be a great start as momentum is everything. Clearly the saracens debacle is having an effect as all sarries were well below par today, will be interesting to see how this pans out. I knew we would struggle as soon as the news broke out. This could have a knock on effect for a couple of seasons.

Roll on next week, hopefully someone shuts eddy up so he doesn't motivate the Scots anymore than normal.

[Mr Bounce]

Firstly, congratulations to France for a good performance with a bit of good luck thrown in - it's been coming for a while and is well deserved. Great defence from Shaun Edwards' teachings and wonderful in attack.

I picked England to win by 25+ points - how wrong I was. Aside from the usual issues which have already been mentioned, the main problem with this England side is their collective lack of a plan when what they're doing isn't working. It's like they're the Under 14 B team when I was that age at school - when things went wrong almost everyone tried to blame the next person rather than look at it carefully and figure out a solution.

Farrell and Ford are two of the elder statesmen in the team, both have led their team out on numerous occasions and are supposedly good 10s. Yet if it isn't 100% working, there's no plan B. Players automatically look to their Captain as a talisman, and neither is any good at all in this situation. Itoje should be be leading the pack with aplomb according to his supporters, but he also seems to go missing when the chips are down. Ben Youngs was ****ing atrocious today - I do not understand why he's been picked. Heinz wasn't great but he was WAY better than Youngs was. However, they were both given a lesson in scrum half play by Dupont, who was outstanding. And when the England players stopped playing just before the 2nd French try I almost threw the remote at the tv.

There were one or two plus points today. Both Cowan-Dickie and Genge showed the passion lacking in nearly every other England player, Lawes was everywhere and Jonny May did score two superb tries. The scrum was generally getting upper hand over their opponents too.

However, massive minus points currently exist at 8, 9, 10, 12, and 13. Tuilagi is now injured (again), Joseph looked a shadow of his former self, surely it's now time to forget the Ford/Farrell axis, GIVE US A DECENT 9, and finally (and most importantly) GET DOMBRANDT INTO THE SQUAD TO PLAY 8.

[Geordie]

There are a multitude of options Maes.  What I'd personally do would be ford farrell and joseph. That's not the main questions though which are 8 and 9.

Devoto nedds to come in to the equation aswell for the 12 spot...a big , hard carying unit with good hands.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Not looked through much of the comments so most of what I seen has probably been said.

Does anyone think Eddie has went into this one with the attitude that we're too good for France and it's possibly spread through the side? All this "I want us to be the greatest etc..." doesn't look that clever after getting outplayed by a pretty much scratch French side.

The lineup seemed to strike a little bit of this with the backrow being a real mess (will he ever learn to just play people in their natural positions???). Some issues need resolving:

- Ewels is not an international class player, how has he stayed around the squad for so long I will never know.

- Ben Youngs...should be moved on. We need to start looking forward and developing another option as Youngs is poor.

- No 8 - Play a bloody 8 at no 8. Why does he do this? It's a specialist position! We nearly concede a try with a dominant scrum, just basics Eddie.

- The centres...the continual struggle.

- Furbank - In hindsight, not the best game to give his debut and he looked like a rabbit in the headlights.

[yappysnap]

Terrible from England at times under pressure. But also a lot of good. Scrum and line out both very good at times especially the scrum


Lack of a no8 really negated that good scrum though and exposed us, Curry is not an 8, why do coaches keep pushing great flankers to 8? It's like moving a great 9 to 10 or 1 to 2. What we would have done for Dombrant running off that platform.

Ewells was anonymous and that should be the end of him as anything other then a squad player.

Youngs has to be dropped. He was shown against SA and now the French have made him look like an amateur. He is costing England and has to go. Too slow in body and mind and not up to this pace.

Ford and May carried the backs, the rest need to all up their games.

[yappysnap]

Also why have England never poached Edward's. He's pretty much won Wales two GS"s with his defense and now look at that French defense. Baffling.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Surprised you mention the line out Yappy, I thought it was a bit of a shambles tbh.

[formerly known as Sam]

- Ben Youngs...should be moved on. We need to start looking forward and developing another option as Youngs is poor.

- No 8 - Play a bloody 8 at no 8. Why does he do this? It's a specialist position! We nearly concede a try with a dominant scrum, just basics Eddie.

- The centres...the continual struggle.

Centres I agree was an issue once Manu went off. Farrell was one of England's worst players. Did you notice that Ford stopped passing to him for a spell after halftime following the knock ons from decent passes under no pressure. Farrell's kicking was appalling as well, just straight down the throat of the French players in the back field far too long to contest. Any other player would have been dragged off.

Youngs wasn't as bad as being made out, I think have a lot of people just blame him when England don't play well. Problem for England is that he isn't the future and that Heinz was considerably worse when he came on. Currently only Spencer looks ready to come into the set up, there's a lot of young talent around but not much of it is ready for selection. I'd expect to see some young 9s tour in the summer (White, Mitchell, Taylor, Whitely, Townsend, Maunder some of those guys).

Lawes doing the carrying work was an epic failure he just made no impact despite his hard work. He's not a backrow. We also paid the price for Curry at 8 losing control as the scrum went forward. That's got to be addressed as the scrum is a weapon we need.

[Collapse2005]

Not looked through much of the comments so most of what I seen has probably been said.

Does anyone think Eddie has went into this one with the attitude that we're too good for France and it's possibly spread through the side? All this "I want us to be the greatest etc..." doesn't look that clever after getting outplayed by a pretty much scratch French side.

The lineup seemed to strike a little bit of this with the backrow being a real mess (will he ever learn to just play people in their natural positions???). Some issues need resolving:

- Ewels is not an international class player, how has he stayed around the squad for so long I will never know.

- Ben Youngs...should be moved on. We need to start looking forward and developing another option as Youngs is poor.

- No 8 - Play a bloody 8 at no 8. Why does he do this? It's a specialist position! We nearly concede a try with a dominant scrum, just basics Eddie.

- The centres...the continual struggle.

- Furbank - In hindsight, not the best game to give his debut and he looked like a rabbit in the headlights.

Yes Eddie looks bad now but thats his way. He wont lose nuch confidence Id say.

[LondonTiger]

Well that was disappointing.

France were excellent defensively and clinical when the chances came. The latter point not something we can say about England. Do not want to think just how many mistakes we made on the field - but we really should have scored first in both halves wasting really good opportunities.

This then compounded the selection mistakes we had already identified - Ewels continues to look lightweight and we must have a specialist No8. Controlling the ball at the back of the scrum - especially one that is either moving forward fast (or retreating similarly) is a skill.

[yappysnap]

Surprised you mention the line out Yappy, I thought it was a bit of a shambles tbh.

It was up and down. Ewells brought nothing to it but itoje seemed to give us some good steals and hands.

[yappysnap]

- Ben Youngs...should be moved on. We need to start looking forward and developing another option as Youngs is poor.

- No 8 - Play a bloody 8 at no 8. Why does he do this? It's a specialist position! We nearly concede a try with a dominant scrum, just basics Eddie.

- The centres...the continual struggle.

Centres I agree was an issue once Manu went off. Farrell was one of England's worst players. Did you notice that Ford stopped  passing to him for a spell after halftime following the knock ons from decent passes under no pressure. Farrell's kicking was appalling as well, just straight down the throat of the French players in the back field far too long to contest. Any other player would have been dragged off.

Youngs wasn't as bad as being made out, I think have a lot of people just blame him when England don't play well. Problem for England is that he isn't the future and that Heinz was considerably worse when he came on. Currently only Spencer looks ready to come into the set up, there's a lot of young talent around but not much of it is ready for selection. I'd expect to see some young 9s tour in the summer (White, Mitchell, Taylor, Whitely, Townsend, Maunder some of those guys).

Lawes doing the carrying work was an epic failure he just made no impact despite his hard work. He's not a backrow. We also paid the price for Curry at 8 losing control as the scrum went forward. That's got to be addressed as the scrum is a weapon we need.

I agree with you on Farrell, he had a really poor game and if not for the Manu injury should have been hooked.

Youngs though was and has been rubbish. It's not that he makes a lot of mistakes, although he does, his general play is just average. If we ever get a good 9 you'll see what we're missing.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Totally agree Yappy, Youngs offers very little these days and his speed and passing are poor. Compare him to Dupont (or many other scrum half performances over the years) and Youngs is rarely better than his opposite number.

I thought Heinz was a step up when he came on, certainly in speed and service around the ruck anyway.

The major fix that is required is obviously 8, as Curry is not the answer. I honestly think Eddie will stick with majority of the same side after that.

I just think we're starting a new WC cycle and we could be doing a bit more in looking at the future. To come into this game with two scrum halfs in their 30's is very short sighted. I like the Furbank pick despite him having a shocker (although I can see Hodge coming into the side as soon as Deano starts picking him regularly....he's that good. Check out his last Newcastle try and the one for the England U20 last week...anyway).

We desperately missed carriers in the pack which again is a bit of issue. As soon as we lose Billy we become the most one dimensional side ever.

I wouldn't want to mix it up too much, but the side needs refreshing a bit for the next game. We will not see this side....

1. Mako
2. George
3. Snickler
4. Lawes
5. Kruis
6. Curry
7. Underhill
8. Dombrant/Earl

9. Heinz
10. Ford/Farrell
11. May
12. Devoto
13. Tuilagi
14. Watson
15. Furbank

16. LCD 17. Stuart 18. Genge 19. Itoje 20. Ludlam 21. Not Youngs 22. Ford/Farrell 23. Daly

[No 7&1/2]

I particularly like your pick at 21.

[formerly known as Sam]

I thought Heinz was a step up when he came on, certainly in speed and service around the ruck anyway.

We must have been watching a very different game. Heinz was shocking. Getting caught in possession, even slower than Youngs at the breakdown. If we'd had Spencer on the bench instead I think we'd have scored towards the end of the game at least once such was the hindrance of Heinz on our play. We would have definitely scored and won if we'd been able to sub Farrell and go to a Spencer/Ford combination.

Got to say I was disappointed after that game not to see Jones include Spencer in the expanded squad. Our third scrum half is there only for experience and isn't a viable option. It's time someone else took that shirt on.

[Sponsored content]