Political round up.............

First topic message reminder :

Pr4wn wrote:Why are 16 and 17 year olds old enough to pay tax but not old enough to vote?

Good point, take them out of having to pay tax.

Labour abstaining on the Covid bill..

Probably do the same on the Brexit bill.

Four years is a long time to not have an opinion on anything.

A Yougov poll on whether the BAME community trusts Starmer..

Yes 36%
No..41%

Bless them they are suddenly realising it's only racism he can use that he is interested in.

The poll was actually asking BAME people - who do you trust more on racial equality between Starmer and Johnson? 36% said Starmer, 13% said Johnson. YouGov also asked BAME people about their favourability opinions of certain politicians - at +29 favourability, Starmer came out the highest.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/11/30/bame-britons-put-little-emphasis-race-political-le?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_agenda&utm_campaign=BAME_Britons_politics

And yes, Labour and the SNP abstaining on the vote. What's the point of getting elected to the Commons and then refusing to vote on the key issue of the month?

Duty281 wrote:The poll was actually asking BAME people - who do you trust more on racial equality between Starmer and Johnson? 36% said Starmer, 13% said Johnson. YouGov also asked BAME people about their favourability opinions of certain politicians - at +29 favourability, Starmer came out the highest.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/11/30/bame-britons-put-little-emphasis-race-political-le?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_agenda&utm_campaign=BAME_Britons_politics

Rishi Sunak is going to be a potentially big problem for the Labour party to overcome, if he's able to turn polling into votes at the next election it could be a massacre.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:The poll was actually asking BAME people - who do you trust more on racial equality between Starmer and Johnson? 36% said Starmer, 13% said Johnson. YouGov also asked BAME people about their favourability opinions of certain politicians - at +29 favourability, Starmer came out the highest.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/11/30/bame-britons-put-little-emphasis-race-political-le?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_agenda&utm_campaign=BAME_Britons_politics

Rishi Sunak is going to be a potentially big problem for the Labour party to overcome, if he's able to turn polling into votes at the next election it could be a massacre.

Ah yes. Good old Rishi and his wife's half-billion quid investment in Infosys that was not declared to Parliament. He's one of the good guys.

Duty281 wrote:And yes, Labour and the SNP abstaining on the vote. What's the point of getting elected to the Commons and then refusing to vote on the key issue of the month?

Considering it's an England only issue the SNP abstaining makes perfect sense and is probably right

If you vote for it you can't criticise it and if you vote against you lose credibility for tackling covid I guess.

Not that it really matters either way given the majority the previous leader handed boris

Moving on..

Bad news this Arcadia stuff....12k jobs and just before Christmas....The High street was dying before Covid but its demise has been exacerbated for sure...Like Darwinism if Chains can't evolve they will cease to exist..

Ten years time we will just see Bookmakers and Charity shops in the Town Centre..

Can't see much in the way of a future for many shops..Covid has seen Consumer habits change and the horse has bolted.

Philip Green doesn't have to worry in his Tax Haven.

Duty281 wrote:And yes, Labour and the SNP abstaining on the vote. What's the point of getting elected to the Commons and then refusing to vote on the key issue of the month?

He doesnt agree with Johnsons proposed Tier plan but he also doesnt think there should be no restrictions. Explain what Labour would do differently then let the Tories do what they want. That way if it all goes tits up the Tories have no one to blame but themselves.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think you look at in the round. Iraq and WMDs aren't cancelled out by the good things New Labour did, but the same is true the other way round.

I'm not a Labour voter these days, but it's beyond me how Blair and Blairism have become dirty words to so many in the party. You need to win power before you can do anything, and moving to the centre is clearly the way to do it.

Oh, I'm not saying he didn't do some good stuff, or wasn't a decent PM for some time. However, I wouldn't shed any tears if he had a fatal coronary tomorrow.

Funny thing about Blair is that he tried to backtrack on his greatest successes..

Only put the minimum wage in his 97 manifesto because he was paranoid over turnout....Then according to Darling and Prescott in their books he tried to weasel out of bringing it in and the SC forced his hand.

Blair was a narcissist...still is...Who went into Politics because he couldn't be famous anywhere else..

PFI...90 day detention....Cash for peerages...Peter Foster...Iraq....Bernie Ecclestone...

Wasted a 170 majority...

Shame he wasn't Labour.

More extradition flights going ahead...Families torn from loved ones at the most sensitive time of year..

Labour staying quiet because it doesn't want to upset the working class racists and bigots in Red wall areas..

Welcome to Politics in 2020..

Holyrood seat projection 2021... Ipsos Mori.

SNP...73 +6
Con...27 -4
Lab...19 -5

Lab got 23% in 2016.
Projected to get 15%

SNP up to 47%...
Con down to 22%..

Independence Question..

Yes 56%
No..44%...

SNP will probably hold the balance of power in 2024.

Surprised if Scotland isn't liberated by 2030.

Are NHS workers getting this vaccine first up or not ???

Whether its the Brexit deal, Free school meals, Windrush or Covid this Govt is so vague on where it stands on everything it is almost comical..

Almost is if with everything it does it hopes to accidentally fall into the accepted position.

Two main parties driven by what it perceives is public opinion rather than beliefs..

Next ten years = Govt by focus group whoever gets in.

Shelter the Homeless Charity are reporting 300,000 as Homeless including 125,000 children....

3.5 million concealed Homeless (called sofa surfers)......

Merry christmas..

When Starmer gets a minute from attacking his left (Someone tell him that Blair did that when people were actually interested) perhaps it's something he wants to challenge this inept, useless, pitiful Govt and Prime Minister about...You know these clowns that are ahead in the polls for some reason..

This eternal Corbyn bashing is working a treat...

Some impressive gymnastics there to make this Starmer's fault

Moving on...

It seems if Covid has done one thing it has restored faith in a Monarchy over a Republic..

Yougov (Would you prefer a Monarchy or Republic)

Monarchy 67%
Republic...21%

Imagine having Boris as President..Can't say I blame the respondents.

Like with more support for Scottish independence a crap govt and non existent opposition is doing wonders for those more divorced from the Westminster sponges.

If we got rid of the monarchy, we'd likely have a system with a ceremonial President who does the same job as the Queen, not a system like the Americans where their President has far too much power.

Either way, 21% for a Republic seems quite high. Ask again if Prince Charles becomes King and I suspect the 21% would have grown.

Duty281 wrote:If we got rid of the monarchy, we'd likely have a system with a ceremonial President who does the same job as the Queen, not a system like the Americans where their President has far too much power.

Either way, 21% for a Republic seems quite high. Ask again if Prince Charles becomes King and I suspect the 21% would have grown.

Heaven help us. No thanks.

Corbyn Labour 2017....

Accept referendum result.
Negotiate Custom's Union.
Push for Single Market access.

Now we are headed for No Deal.. Millions Unemployed...Businesses destroyed or fleeing abroad for less red tape.

Well done to ChangeUK..The Lib Dems and Blairites for trashing a Unity Govt to keep a Socialist out.

You think Covid is bad on the Economy wait for No deal Brexit..

Bleak decade coming up folks.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Corbyn Labour 2017....

Accept referendum result.
Negotiate Custom's Union.
Push for Single Market access.

Now we are headed for No Deal.. Millions Unemployed...Businesses destroyed or fleeing abroad for less red tape.

Well done to ChangeUK..The Lib Dems and Blairites for trashing a Unity Govt to keep a Socialist out.

You think Covid is bad on the Economy wait for No deal Brexit..

Bleak decade coming up folks.

Yeah if only Corbyn had attacked the government when it was most vulnerable, when, for instance, the Cambridge Analytica scandal was breaking, things might have been different. But you know - 'buses'.

You are shouting at the people who had the balls to stand up and say Brexit is a very stupid idea, and one that was brought in through questionable actions and outlandish claims. Corbyn was bad news all the way through this. Divisive in his own party, and divisive on the doorstep. Never put the right pressure on the government at the right time and always backing that government when it really mattered.

You'll complain about the media coverage he got, with some reason, but the way that Corbyn dealt with that was to wallow in the 'poor me' aspects rather than try to change the narrative. That kind of thing appeals to the people who want a cause, a martyr to follow, and that brought a lot of people into the Labour party, but it did not bring over the wider population. If he had really, truly, stuck to calling out the government over issues with real meat on them then eventually the media, or at least some of it, would have picked those themes up and run with them. But no...

You also haven't responded to my comments on the Government of National Unity (A Gnu - a compromise between a horse and an antelope). That was a non starter again because of Corbyn. Because it would have depended on MP's who quit labour because of Corbyn. He was incapable of stepping back, at least for a short period, to let someone take leadership who those MP's could have trusted. As ever it is their fault for not buying into the Corbyn cult, just as it is our fault for not voting for him at the last election. Saintly JC is never at fault himself.

We have had a succession of terrible Conservative governments, each one worse than the last. One of the reasons they have got away with so much is purely because they have not had an effective opposition. Even when the opposition landed some solid blows, like over Grenfell, it was down to the likes of Lammy and Cooper, very talented people pushed to the back benches, not Corbyn.

Corbyn is not the main reason we are where we are right now, but he surely has played his part in this farce.

And lastly.

Unless anything amazing happens over the next few days we are going into a no deal 'Australian' deal in the new year. (Can't be a no deal because that would be a 'failure of statecraft' and a 'one in a million chance'.)

There is a narrative being pushed that somehow this is the fault of the 'remoaners', and you are buying into that. As far as the Conservative UKIP party is concerned your comments are those of what the Russians used to call a useful idiot.

Did Corbyn actually have an opinion on Brexit. Felt more like he was happy to sit back and let May/Boris do whatever they liked.

Tory MPs/the SNP/Labour back benchers did far more to hold the government to account over the leader of the opposition on the biggest and most critical political decision in decades. Complete and abject failure of an opposition.

GSC wrote:Did Corbyn actually have an opinion on Brexit. Felt more like he was happy to sit back and let May/Boris do whatever they liked.

Tory MPs/the SNP/Labour back benchers did far more to hold the government to account over the leader of the opposition on the biggest and most critical political decision in decades. Complete and abject failure of an opposition.

Precisely. It was Cooper, Benn and Letwin who led the way on holding the government to account.

Corbyn was a lifelong leaver who couldn't speak out in support for Brexit because the majority of his MPs and membership were staunch remainers.

All we got instead were wishy washy statements that did nothing to oppose Brexit but were enough for his cult to say how great a job he was doing in opposition

Amuses me that the cult will blame support of a 2nd ref for the election defeat, kinda ignores the fact that labour barely acknowledged Brexit was happening for years.

superflyweight wrote:

GSC wrote:Did Corbyn actually have an opinion on Brexit. Felt more like he was happy to sit back and let May/Boris do whatever they liked.

Tory MPs/the SNP/Labour back benchers did far more to hold the government to account over the leader of the opposition on the biggest and most critical political decision in decades. Complete and abject failure of an opposition.

Precisely.  It was Cooper, Benn and Letwin who led the way on holding the government to account.  

I've said for years now and despite being one of them (A conservative voter) I consider Cooper and Benn to be the most competent politicians in this country. In itself not a grand statement considering the overall standard but both speak with passion without letting that passion blind them. Starmer is an upgrade on Corbyn without doubt but lacks the killer instinct of both of them.

Cooper should have been leader after Brown and if not then, then certainly after Milliband. Far and away one of the most accomplished and competent politicians.

Labour losts their minds when Cameron beat Brown and seemed to think that it was as a result of a rejection of the centre ground by voters, which is just nonsense. Same happened when Blair defeated Major and the Conservatives started to embrace the right wing of their party for a while.

Soul Requiem wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

GSC wrote:Did Corbyn actually have an opinion on Brexit. Felt more like he was happy to sit back and let May/Boris do whatever they liked.

Tory MPs/the SNP/Labour back benchers did far more to hold the government to account over the leader of the opposition on the biggest and most critical political decision in decades. Complete and abject failure of an opposition.

Precisely.  It was Cooper, Benn and Letwin who led the way on holding the government to account.  

I've said for years now and despite being one of them (A conservative voter) I consider Cooper and Benn to be the most competent politicians in this country. In itself not a grand statement considering the overall standard but both speak with passion without letting that passion blind them. Starmer is an upgrade on Corbyn without doubt but lacks the killer instinct of both of them.

I am kind of centre/left in my political leanings but what really matters to me is just plain competency. This version of the Conservatives show very little. They seem to have chased anyone with a brain out of the party before the last election. Labour is desperately trying to claw a degree of competence back from the nutters.

With the lib dems pretty much making up the numbers it just feels that the views of the bulk of the population who like me float around the centre somewhere are not being represented.

Cracking stuff from Starmer....

We need to understand aspiration again....Towns may be struggling but we need to be as optimistic as those that shop in them...Labour needs to believe patriotism isn't a vice...We need to realise working class People are positive not negative like old Labour...etc etc.

Well you can't say fairer than that....The kind of stuff needed with Business closures and unemployment rising at record pace...Evictions rocketing, record Homelessness and thousands dying from Covid.

Survation
Con 39
Lab 37

It figures.

Survation Dec 2018 (under Corbyn)
Lab 45
Con 37

Did Starmer call you a doodoo head in primary school Truss?

Er...Truss, there's currently a business evictions ban in place, and evictions in tiers 2 and 3 aren't happening, even though the eviction ban on renters ended a month or so back. Evictions aren't rocketing.

And Labour had a lead in 2 of the last 6 polls.

lostinwales wrote:With the lib dems pretty much making up the numbers it just feels that the views of the bulk of the population who like me float around the centre somewhere are not being represented.

As a centrist, I also find myself unrepresented.

Duty281 wrote:Er...Truss, there's currently a business evictions ban in place, and evictions in tiers 2 and 3 aren't happening, even though the eviction ban on renters ended a month or so back. Evictions aren't rocketing.

And Labour had a lead in 2 of the last 6 polls.

If Starmer takes the lead in any poll then 'polls will be meaningless and flawed', 'something something.... bless', 'polling well between elections is meaningless', 'something something.... Corbyn or Miliband', 'something something... bless them'.

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Corbyn Labour 2017....

Accept referendum result.
Negotiate Custom's Union.
Push for Single Market access.

Now we are headed for No Deal.. Millions Unemployed...Businesses destroyed or fleeing abroad for less red tape.

Well done to ChangeUK..The Lib Dems and Blairites for trashing a Unity Govt to keep a Socialist out.

You think Covid is bad on the Economy wait for No deal Brexit..

Bleak decade coming up folks.

Yeah if only Corbyn had attacked the government when it was most vulnerable, when, for instance, the Cambridge Analytica scandal was breaking, things might have been different. But you know - 'buses'.

You are shouting at the people who had the balls to stand up and say Brexit is a very stupid idea, and one that was brought in through questionable actions and outlandish claims. Corbyn was bad news all the way through this. Divisive in his own party, and divisive on the doorstep. Never put the right pressure on the government at the right time and always backing that government when it really mattered.

You'll complain about the media coverage he got, with some reason, but the way that Corbyn dealt with that was to wallow in the 'poor me' aspects rather than try to change the narrative. That kind of thing appeals to the people who want a cause, a martyr to follow, and that brought a lot of people into the Labour party, but it did not bring over the wider population. If he had really, truly, stuck to calling out the government over issues with real meat on them then eventually the media, or at least some of it, would have picked those themes up and run with them. But no...

You also haven't responded to my comments on the Government of National Unity (A Gnu - a compromise between a horse and an antelope). That was a non starter again because of Corbyn. Because it would have depended on MP's who quit labour because of Corbyn. He was incapable of stepping back, at least for a short period, to let someone take leadership who those MP's could have trusted. As ever it is their fault for not buying into the Corbyn cult, just as it is our fault for not voting for him at the last election. Saintly JC is never at fault himself.

We have had a succession of terrible Conservative governments, each one worse than the last. One of the reasons they have got away with so much is purely because they have not had an effective opposition. Even when the opposition landed some solid blows, like over Grenfell, it was down to the likes of Lammy and Cooper, very talented people pushed to the back benches, not Corbyn.

Corbyn is not the main reason we are where we are right now, but he surely has played his part in this farce.

lostinwales wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

GSC wrote:Did Corbyn actually have an opinion on Brexit. Felt more like he was happy to sit back and let May/Boris do whatever they liked.

Tory MPs/the SNP/Labour back benchers did far more to hold the government to account over the leader of the opposition on the biggest and most critical political decision in decades. Complete and abject failure of an opposition.

Precisely.  It was Cooper, Benn and Letwin who led the way on holding the government to account.  

I've said for years now and despite being one of them (A conservative voter) I consider Cooper and Benn to be the most competent politicians in this country. In itself not a grand statement considering the overall standard but both speak with passion without letting that passion blind them. Starmer is an upgrade on Corbyn without doubt but lacks the killer instinct of both of them.

I am kind of centre/left in my political leanings but what really matters to me is just plain competency. This version of the Conservatives show very little. They seem to have chased anyone with a brain out of the party before the last election. Labour is desperately trying to claw a degree of competence back from the nutters.

With the lib dems pretty much making up the numbers it just feels that the views of the bulk of the population who like me float around the centre somewhere are not being represented.

#PR_Now

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Er...Truss, there's currently a business evictions ban in place, and evictions in tiers 2 and 3 aren't happening, even though the eviction ban on renters ended a month or so back. Evictions aren't rocketing.

And Labour had a lead in 2 of the last 6 polls.

If Starmer takes the lead in any poll then 'polls will be meaningless and flawed', 'something something.... bless', 'polling well between elections is meaningless', 'something something.... Corbyn or Miliband', 'something something... bless them'.

Moving on..

Yougov..

Is Starmer trustworthy ???

18-24s
Yes 11% -10
No...38% +14

Over 65s
Yes 28....nc
No 32....-1

Changes from Oct 5...

Chucking Corbyn out to appease the Israel lobby hasn't gone down well with the idealistic youngsters.

See it for the cynical move it is no doubt.

Corbyn got over a million 18-24s out in 2017...more than Miliband in 2015...Won with that age group massively in 2019...

Best not to take them for granted.

navyblueshorts wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Corbyn Labour 2017....

Accept referendum result.
Negotiate Custom's Union.
Push for Single Market access.

Now we are headed for No Deal.. Millions Unemployed...Businesses destroyed or fleeing abroad for less red tape.

Well done to ChangeUK..The Lib Dems and Blairites for trashing a Unity Govt to keep a Socialist out.

You think Covid is bad on the Economy wait for No deal Brexit..

Bleak decade coming up folks.

Yeah if only Corbyn had attacked the government when it was most vulnerable, when, for instance, the Cambridge Analytica scandal was breaking, things might have been different. But you know - 'buses'.

You are shouting at the people who had the balls to stand up and say Brexit is a very stupid idea, and one that was brought in through questionable actions and outlandish claims. Corbyn was bad news all the way through this. Divisive in his own party, and divisive on the doorstep. Never put the right pressure on the government at the right time and always backing that government when it really mattered.

You'll complain about the media coverage he got, with some reason, but the way that Corbyn dealt with that was to wallow in the 'poor me' aspects rather than try to change the narrative. That kind of thing appeals to the people who want a cause, a martyr to follow, and that brought a lot of people into the Labour party, but it did not bring over the wider population. If he had really, truly, stuck to calling out the government over issues with real meat on them then eventually the media, or at least some of it, would have picked those themes up and run with them. But no...

You also haven't responded to my comments on the Government of National Unity (A Gnu - a compromise between a horse and an antelope). That was a non starter again because of Corbyn. Because it would have depended on MP's who quit labour because of Corbyn. He was incapable of stepping back, at least for a short period, to let someone take leadership who those MP's could have trusted. As ever it is their fault for not buying into the Corbyn cult, just as it is our fault for not voting for him at the last election. Saintly JC is never at fault himself.

We have had a succession of terrible Conservative governments, each one worse than the last. One of the reasons they have got away with so much is purely because they have not had an effective opposition. Even when the opposition landed some solid blows, like over Grenfell, it was down to the likes of Lammy and Cooper, very talented people pushed to the back benches, not Corbyn.

Corbyn is not the main reason we are where we are right now, but he surely has played his part in this farce.

Corbyn defeated the Govt more than any Labour Leader in history...Look at the data...

Please feel free to research before you post guys.

41 times which is only surpassed by Thatcher 76-79..

Post is for lost in wales not you Navy.....Lost is generally more informed.

I've not checked but I'd be willing to bet a large proportion of those Corbyn wins were Brexit related, and Corbyn can claim no credit for any of those. He was a hindrance not a help

BamBam wrote:I've not checked but I'd be willing to bet a large proportion of those Corbyn wins were Brexit related, and Corbyn can claim no credit for any of those. He was a hindrance not a help

I did have a quick check and it seems that not only were the majority Brexit related but they happened when May had a minority government and they simply didnt have the numbers. Its not really that impressive when you simply out vote them.

I don't get offended with People offering different opinions..

I welcome good rebuttal....

I promise I will let you know when I read some.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Please feel free to research before you post guys.

41 times which is only surpassed by Thatcher 76-79..

I think it's more than 41 times. Regardless, the key factor for *why* this is is because of the size of the government's majority (or lack of) in question, not Jeremy Corbyn.

Wilson (second term), Callaghan, May's minority and Johnson's minority governments lead the table in post WW2 government defeats. See the common factor?

And the reason why May and Johnson had a minority government was because largely of May's ineptitude in her 2017 GE campaign, and the lack of a viable third party to take votes from Labour. It had very little to do with Corbyn.

Facts don't care about theories....However valid.

The guy defeated the Govt more than any Labour leader in history...

Which is a perverse attack angle from Starmer supporters who get to watch him abstain on everything..

Corbyn was a crap leader...But holding the Govt to account was not one of his flaws

It's not a theory, it's context. Facts are meaningless without context.

I could be leader of the opposition during May and Johnson's minority government and 'defeat the government' just as many times. Put Corbyn up as the leader of the opposition against any of Thatcher's majority governments and he wouldn't be able to defeat the government a record number of times.

Context and nuance matters, otherwise you can only offer a very basic and superficial analysis.

Well done he defeated a minority more than any other, bravo.

Didnt he also vote against his own government more times than any other MP?

Samo wrote:Didnt he also vote against his own government more times than any other MP?

A record number of times. During the Labour governments he voted against the whip 428 times. Kind of makes it hard to keep discipline as leader when you have that kind of reputation.

At least he actually had something to do with that record

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:....

Corbyn defeated the Govt more than any Labour Leader in history...Look at the data...

Please feel free to research before you post guys.

41 times which is only surpassed by Thatcher 76-79..

Post is for lost in wales not you Navy.....Lost is generally more informed.

Navy is informed, just chooses to have his own opinions.

Those numbers are good, but as has been pointed out are mainly due to circumstances and a convergence of interests. I think you'd be hard pushed to credit the defeats to the actions of Corbyn himself.