Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

by Soul Requiem Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

quinsforever wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
quinsforever wrote:Risky - i haven't seen it suggested there are any tax issues with any of this

and if Lord Dyson accepted the payments were not "deliberate", merely "reckless", then i don't think your comments apply. plus they got them cleared by their own counsel.

clearly Wray, based on the advice he got, still thought the payments obeyed the letter of the salary cap regs, if not the spirit, as shown by his willingness to contest Dyson's penalty, right up until his advisers changed their mind on the strength of his case.

I think people are getting a bit too emotional about this.

yes, in hindsight, Saracens were over the cap. they were aggressive in co-payment schemes, and guess what, there was a difference of opinion between lawyers about that. no shocker there. the jury of the other 12 PRL(+ newcastle) clubs have now effectively doubled the points penalty all because Saracens wouldnt hand back their last two premiership titles. nothing to do with opening their books IMO.

so maybe people should just calm down a bit. no crime has been committed. Saracens look bad yes. but so do the PRL!

England have benefited significantly from having the core of their team play together consistently IMO. and i have loved watching Sarries win the Champs Cup, something the other english teams were absolutely nowhere near doing.

Yes it has. It's illegal under competition law.
umm, no it's not.

Erm yes it is, it's considered to be economic doping.

by Geordie Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:13 pm

king_carlos wrote:It's hardly unheard of for teams to get fines or points deductions in the group stages for fielding ineligible players. Pretty sure London Welsh and Lyon have both been hit by it in recent seasons.

Really poor management by Sarries to not realise the work permit was about to expire.

Hardly a witch hunt. Just poor off field management being punished within the rules of the comp...

Oh i agree..they only have themselves to blame...but it does seem that anything they have done is now being micro investigated.

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:19 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Oops.....seems like they fielded an ineligible player against Racing 92 and out now being investigated by EPCR.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/relegated-saracens-are-facing-a-european-rugby-misconduct-hearing-friday-evening

Who would get their place if they were taken out of the competition.

No lover of what Saracens have done but is this just a way of making sure that there isn't the embarassment of having the European champions are not playing second tier rugby next season?

Glasgow would have been the next cab off the rank, so you would assume it would be them.

I am sure European rugby would love Sarries not to be involved now, but this is a co*k up of their own making.

I know that the Euro comps do not have a salary cap, but I don't think it can be separated out as easily as that. If they were not overspending on the league, then they would not have had that squad just for Euro games. I would say it would suit all parties if Sarries were to be elimionated, maybe even Sarries themselves, as they can then get on with sorting themselves out for the future rather than having one last hurrah.

I hear that they may be losing Allianz as their main sponsor because of this as well, hardly surprising as a company like that won't want to be involved in an organisation who have been caught cheating. That will also have a significant impact on their finances going forward, they are the biggest sponsors in the league for a club by a long way.

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:20 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:It's hardly unheard of for teams to get fines or points deductions in the group stages for fielding ineligible players. Pretty sure London Welsh and Lyon have both been hit by it in recent seasons.

Really poor management by Sarries to not realise the work permit was about to expire.

Hardly a witch hunt. Just poor off field management being punished within the rules of the comp...

Oh i agree..they only have themselves to blame...but it does seem that anything they have done is now being micro investigated.

They self reported this apparently, presumably wanting no other skeletons in the closet to come out later.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:30 pm

BigGee wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:It's hardly unheard of for teams to get fines or points deductions in the group stages for fielding ineligible players. Pretty sure London Welsh and Lyon have both been hit by it in recent seasons.

Really poor management by Sarries to not realise the work permit was about to expire.

Hardly a witch hunt. Just poor off field management being punished within the rules of the comp...

Oh i agree..they only have themselves to blame...but it does seem that anything they have done is now being micro investigated.

They self reported this apparently, presumably wanting no other skeletons in the closet to come out later.

Surely it'll be a slap on the wrist style punishment. A working visa one day out of date is hardly the end of the world.

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:40 pm

A fine is the most likely outcome agreed.

Scarlets got fined for a similar offence, but their player was a sub and never got on the pitch. The Sarries prop played 20 mins in a tight game, so did make a significant contribution.

Other more recent infarctions have cost clubs points, though usually for incorrect registrations.

It will be an interesting outcome. As a Glasgow fan, I do have some skin in the game, but I am not getting to excited as would have preferred us to have qualified under our own steam, which we should have done.

by king_carlos Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:45 pm

A point deduction would be consistent with players being incorrectly registered in Europe. The timing coming with everything else happening at Sarries and a deduction potentially losing them a QF does make it look more brutal though.

Sarries fans must be absolutely raging if a points deduction is possible.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:50 pm

king_carlos wrote:A point deduction would be consistent with players being incorrectly registered in Europe. The timing coming with everything else happening at Sarries and a deduction potentially losing them a QF does make it look more brutal though.

Sarries fans must be absolutely raging if a points deduction is possible.

Normally the point deductions are for ineligible players that aren't part of the European squad but who appear anyway. In this case the player was in the European squad and at the time of the team being named eligible to play. If Sarries have opted to self report as well it really does point more to a token fine than a points deduction.

Ospreys avoided a points deduction despite playing with an extra man in a game that decided the group previously.

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Feb 2020, 7:27 pm

Unsurprisingly, Racing have weighed in saying that they think Sarries deserve a points deduction.

Just puts a little bit more pressure on the panel to ensure that they come up with a decision that is consistent with other cases and offers no signs of favouritism.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 07 Feb 2020, 7:39 pm

Would be a bit of an overkill for me. Let's not forget that at the highest level wales got away with consistent cheating regarding eligibility and their results stand.

by king_carlos Fri 07 Feb 2020, 7:56 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
king_carlos wrote:A point deduction would be consistent with players being incorrectly registered in Europe. The timing coming with everything else happening at Sarries and a deduction potentially losing them a QF does make it look more brutal though.

Sarries fans must be absolutely raging if a points deduction is possible.

Normally the point deductions are for ineligible players that aren't part of the European squad but who appear anyway. In this case the player was in the European squad and at the time of the team being named eligible to play. If Sarries have opted to self report as well it really does point more to a token fine than a points deduction.

Ospreys avoided a points deduction despite playing with an extra man in a game that decided the group previously.

More often the deductions have been for players being registered with EPCR after the deadline for that game rather than not being registered at all by my understanding? Still a different situation but both circumstances are players being incorrectly registered for the games in question.

Racing being the first placed qualifier without a QF ramps up the pressure on any decision. If the result is turned over to 28-0 for Racing (unlikely but has happened in the past) then Racing would get a home quarter with Clermont going away. The entire order of play for the quarters would also change.

If Sarries received a 2 point deduction but the result stands then Glasgow would simply qualify as the 8th quarter-finalist going away to Leinster. Which Leinster would undoubtedly prefer to Sarries turning upped entirely miffed with life and effectively an international 23 at their disposal.

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Feb 2020, 9:49 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51415778

Sarries remain in European cup, 50,000 Euro fine

by king_carlos Fri 07 Feb 2020, 9:55 pm

I'm happy with that outcome if only to get to see the Leinster vs Sarries QF. That game will be a higher standard contest than most internationals this year.

by **BigGee** Fri 07 Feb 2020, 11:11 pm

As a Glasgow fan, no complaints really, we had our chances.

Not sure Racing will see it that way, it cost them a home quarter final!

by **LondonTiger** Sat 08 Feb 2020, 12:51 pm

BigGee wrote:As a Glasgow fan, no complaints really, we had our chances.

Not sure Racing will see it that way, it cost them a home quarter final!

More teams will be happy with the decision than unhappy I reckon. Racing would have had an easier 1/4 final but Clermont, Toulouse, Exeter would have had harder matches.

by **BigGee** Sat 08 Feb 2020, 1:51 pm

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/lorenzetti-saracens-decision-ridiculous-unfair-and-biased

As suspected, Lorenzetti the Racing owner, did not take it to well!

by No 7&1/2 Sat 08 Feb 2020, 2:03 pm

Ha. Toys out of the pram.

by **BigGee** Mon 10 Feb 2020, 10:33 pm

https://www.theoffsideline.com/dave-rennie-epcr/

Dave Rennie less than impressed at the decision regarding Sarries playing ineligible prop in the euro match!

by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Feb 2020, 8:01 am

Some more toys out of the pram.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 11 Feb 2020, 9:08 am

If we were talking about an unregistered player, then Racing would have been appointed 28-0 winners, following precedent, leading to every 1/4 final changing. Would have been a pain for almost all involved but would have been fair. However we are talking about a minor error with the player registered to play but losing his work permit for 48 hours before it was renewed. As infringements go no worse than Ospreys having an extra player on the pitch against Leicester back in 2010 (but d not get me started on how they manipulated Januarie's contract to make him eligible) which also led to a fine.

by quinsforever Fri 14 Feb 2020, 8:16 pm

Man City fined GBP25m by EUFA for breaching financial fair play regs (effectively paying too much wages as a % of revenues), and banned from Champions LEague for 2 seasons

interesting comparison with Saracens

Man City 2019 wage bill cGBP260m (may have been higher who knows)
Saracens 2019 wage bill 8m (c1m over cap)
Man city fine GBP25m (10% of wage bill)
Sarries fine GBP5.3m (65% of wage bill)
Man City banned from Europe for 2 years with loss of that revenue stream, no penalty in Premier League
Sarries relegated from PRL, no penalty in Europe, not clear what financial penalties will ensue from Championship vs PRL

by thebandwagonsociety Mon 17 Feb 2020, 11:59 am

City were being done on the revenue figure being questioned. Etihad paying a fortune for sponsorship and commercial tie-in while being an entity connected with ownership. That is a thread that none of the english or french clubs want pulled in their leagues.

UEFA control european competitions and punished the team in the competitions they control.
PRL control domestic top flight and punished the team in the competition they control.

PRL have effectively banned Saracens from two seasons in the Euro competition (next year championship, year after prem, means 3 seasons to be in Europe if all went as expected). Saracens continue to play in this seasons euro competition.

UEFA banned City from 2 seasons in Euro competition, if they stay top4 in second season they get back into Euro. City continue to play in this seasons euro competition.

Sarries fine covers 3 seasons, how many seasons does City's fine cover?

by TightHEAD Fri 08 May 2020, 10:10 am

Breaking rules again!

Sarries players just do not care.

Stay home, Stay safe and protect the NHS

by TJ Wed 08 Jul 2020, 10:18 am

Do we have any more news on what is going on with Sarries? I have not heard anything. Are they going to get under the salery cap? Are the championship clubs going to insist on a 2.5 million cap as was mooted?

Anyone with any info?

by king_carlos Wed 08 Jul 2020, 11:18 am

They'll be in the Championship for a season, bounce back up and ring fencing may well follow shortly after will be the gist of things I think. Not that I'm a fan of ring fencing but hey ho.

I'd guess that they will need to lose more players longer term to get under the reduced cap that will be in place when they come back up. Given the reduction was unanimously voted you'd presume they must be prepared for that though.

As for the Championship clubs bringing in a salary cap, the vast majority are sadly just trying to survive now. Nottingham are pretty much returning to semi-pro set-up next season.

by quinsforever Sat 18 Jul 2020, 7:40 pm

Farrell and Itoje signed long term new deals with Saracens.

Jones says he's happy to pick Sarries players.

McGeechan says he's definitely pick Sarries players for Lions.

Good for England and the Lions. Almost like we have a core who are centrally contracted. Nice.

by king_carlos Mon 10 Aug 2020, 3:30 pm

Fissler reporting (suggesting...) that another Prem club is under investigation for breaking the cap. The club are described as "in the running for the top 4".

Questions I will be interested in finding out answers to if it's true:

1. Which club?
2. Which season (or multiple seasons) are they being investigated for?
3. What form are the suspected indiscretions being made in? Are these more co-investments similar to Sarries? Image rights? Property deals with club investors?

I can't see it being Saints with their small squad. Sale have a lot of very good overseas signings now but also a small senior squad. Many will point fingers at Bristol but their squad has a few huge earners (Radrada, Piutau, Sinckler, Luatau, Hughes) then a lot of less high profile but very high performing signings.

Bath or Exeter (huge squad and depth in expensive positions) would be my guess if there's any truth to it. There have been a few rumours about Rowe hiding some of Chiefs spending in SWComms for years. Nowt more than rumours to back any of it up to date though...

by Geordie Mon 10 Aug 2020, 3:38 pm

Id laugh if it Was Exeter...all holier than thou.... Laugh

PS KC im shocked and dismayed you havent analysed us as a potential top 4 challenger...

by king_carlos Mon 10 Aug 2020, 3:44 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id laugh if it Was Exeter...all holier than thou....

PS KC im shocked and dismayed you havent analysed us as a potential top 4 challenger...

If it does turn out to be Chiefs then Tony Rowe will have dug himself one hell of a hole to clamber out of...

I'm guessing that Deano wasn't willing to give John Hardie an expenses account so you should be alright for salary cap investigations GF Whistle

by Geordie Mon 10 Aug 2020, 4:01 pm

Yeah, ive just text my wifes cousin whos a chiefs season ticket holder, and hes heard the rumour about "someone" being investigated...but he said he wouldnt be surprised if it was the chiefs as Rowe has notoriously kept things very close to his chest...

by **LondonTiger** Mon 10 Aug 2020, 4:46 pm

Quins have been very quick to allow Ibitoye leave and Marchant go on loan - suggesting they are certainly right at the cap - but are they potential Top 4?

by king_carlos Mon 10 Aug 2020, 5:01 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Quins have been very quick to allow Ibitoye leave and Marchant go on loan - suggesting they are certainly right at the cap - but are they potential Top 4?

I did wonder about Quins but allowing Marchant and Ibitoye go came after Marler, Care and Brown signing lower value deals did it not?

From what I've heard Quins were right up to the cap having signed those three and Robshaw to long term, high wage contracts whilst they were England players. Contracts that arguably they didn't offer value for money on towards the end of them due to drops in form and in Marler's case coming out of international retirement.

Jamie Roberts and James Horwill were on a good wedge at Quins too during that period.

I wouldn't look at their current squad and think 'that's right up to the cap' though.

by Brendan Mon 10 Aug 2020, 7:19 pm

To be fair Sarries punishment has turned out to be an almighty blessing in disguise.

Their top players will get plenty of rest and be ready and fresh for 21/22 while all the other teams are coming off a year of solid rugby.
Their fringe players are getting game time with other teams to improve themselves
Their youngsters will be playing meaningful games in front of hostile crowds rather than just get A league games.
Any other team who breaks the cap will need to be treated the same way as Sarries including looking at the books mid year.

Think Sarries will be glad to be watching from the championship as their rivals rack up the wear and tear from the heavy workload.

by king_carlos Mon 10 Aug 2020, 7:28 pm

On the playing side it isn't the worst thing in the world. Losing sponsors, a drop to Championship gate receipts, no revenue for European games or home knockout games, along with the huge fine is a big blow financially.

As long as Wray doesn't pull the plug they won't go under but Sarries aren't in the best position financially. If the Wray's start reducing funding then it wont take long to hit Sarries on the pitch as well.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 16 Aug 2020, 3:33 pm

I've heard a whisper that Wasps are being investigated.

by mikey_dragon Sun 16 Aug 2020, 7:03 pm

They might need to trim their squad then, perhaps starting at 2nd row.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 17 Aug 2020, 11:47 am

mikey_dragon wrote:They might need to trim their squad then, perhaps starting at 2nd row.

Historical offences, rather than current issues. Rowlands will leave - but only in 2021 I suspect.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 17 Aug 2020, 1:40 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:They might need to trim their squad then, perhaps starting at 2nd row.

Historical offences, rather than current issues. Rowlands will leave - but only in 2021 I suspect.

Presumably the Piatau, le Roux, Daly, Beale, Gopperth, Wade and Cipriani backline sort of time?

They can't have gone that far over can they?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 17 Aug 2020, 8:59 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:They might need to trim their squad then, perhaps starting at 2nd row.

Historical offences, rather than current issues. Rowlands will leave - but only in 2021 I suspect.

Presumably the Piatau, le Roux, Daly, Beale, Gopperth, Wade and Cipriani backline sort of time?

They can't have gone that far over can they?

Suggestion I heard was they were at the cap and then failed to submit information about academy contracts with a few guys that actually exceeded the individual allowance. But it was part of a general discussion where shade was being thrown at everyone.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 17 Aug 2020, 9:00 pm

In general I would say that if you look at a squad and it is both big and deep on quality, then something is a tad fishy. International quality players do not play for peanuts.

by Rinsure Tue 18 Aug 2020, 10:13 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:They might need to trim their squad then, perhaps starting at 2nd row.

Historical offences, rather than current issues. Rowlands will leave - but only in 2021 I suspect.

Presumably the Piatau, le Roux, Daly, Beale, Gopperth, Wade and Cipriani backline sort of time?

They can't have gone that far over can they?

We breached, and got a slap (fine) in '18: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/breaking-premiership-release-statement-wasps-overrun-salary-cap/

I've not seen anything to suggest Wasps are in the cross-hairs at the moment, although they would fit the bracket of "top 4 ambitions". My (entirely unsubstantiated) feeling was that it might be Harlequins. Lots of older international stars on long contracts (think Robshaw, Care, Marler, Brown), Sinckler has just left, and would have been on a not-unsubstantial salary.

That's just a feeling though. I've also heard Bath mentioned. I guess we'll see how it all plays out.

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