Eng V Ireland Sunday 23rd Feb 2020

First topic message reminder :


3pm at Twickers.
Ref: Jaco Peyper (South Africa), Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France), Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France), TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)

England:: Daly; May, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), Joseph; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Underhill, Curry.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade.




Ireland: Ireland: Larmour; Conway, Henshaw, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Herring, Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, O'Mahony, van der Flier, Stander.

Replacements: Kelleher, Kilcoyne, Porter, Toner, Doris, Cooney, Byrne, Earls.

Stander is still not supporting his fat body at every breakdown whilst putting his hands in the ruck. He got pinged for it every time in this one but didn't against Wales... and when they finally did the French official was very lenient.

lostinwales wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:I seem to remember a few cheap shots from both teams yesterday. The ref and assistants just seemed to ignore no arm clean outs at the ruck from both sides. Both Farrell and Stander should probably have warmed a naughty chair for their spat . Especially after both captains had already been given the waggy finger from the ref as I remember it.

Each to their own. I believe all's fair that the ref doesn't catch apart from actions whose primary purpose is to cause injury.

The Irish clearouts were too much for my liking, but penalties and some control from the ref would be preferable to cards.

Some interesting ruck play here!

https://twitter.com/smallclone_/status/1231596338946678784?s=21

The Oracle wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:I seem to remember a few cheap shots from both teams yesterday. The ref and assistants just seemed to ignore no arm clean outs at the ruck from both sides. Both Farrell and Stander should probably have warmed a naughty chair for their spat . Especially after both captains had already been given the waggy finger from the ref as I remember it.

Each to their own. I believe all's fair that the ref doesn't catch apart from actions whose primary purpose is to cause injury.

The Irish clearouts were too much for my liking, but penalties and some control from the ref would be preferable to cards.

Some interesting ruck play here!

https://twitter.com/smallclone_/status/1231596338946678784?s=21

Disappointing that the touch judges weren't helping the ref out there. If he's on the far side of the ruck and maybe doesn't have the best view a little "Green 3 in at the side" comment into the ear piece and then it's up to the ref whether he goes with it or not.

mikey_dragon wrote:Stander is still not supporting his fat body at every breakdown whilst putting his hands in the ruck. He got pinged for it every time in this one but didn't against Wales... and when they finally did the French official was very lenient.

Yeah but, no but, yeah but..... again, Mikey, do you actually watch Wales play?  Did you watch them play against French?  
Dozen and dozens of breakdown floppers falling around pretending to be supporting their weight, pretending to be holding a ball whilst doing so and shouting at the ref to give'em it - please sir, give us it.  We look good here!
Your eyes just aren't as 20/20 when you watch Wales, Mikey.  And Stander ain't a fat lad, he's just happy, innit.

No fly that was France. Admittedly all teams do it, but nowhere near to the extent of Ireland and France lately.

Old Man wrote:

Was surprised that Sexton never exploited the space behind the rush defence.

That would have involved kicking, yes?   ........... Right.

And on that point.  Is he carrying a muscle/ligament issue that the Irish camp don't want to admit to lest teams exploit his inability to tactically kick.  His boot was terrible at the weekend and not just for those attempts at the post.  His kicks for position were laughably short.
Yep, it just might be time beginning to really show or confidence now at a very low ebb, or a not spoken about continuous injury issue.  But he seems to be very reluctant to do much with the boot these days.  There is something not right with that kicking leg and maybe that's the lingering focus of his frustration.
But in any case, if he has an issue with such a niggle, he shouldn't be playing, as his team mates know he isn't on top form so he stilts their confidence levels too. Vicious circle and cycle.

mikey_dragon wrote:No fly that was France. Admittedly all teams do it, but nowhere near to the extent of Ireland and France lately.

No it was Wales. Look again without the cloud of bias. I was laughing at how eager they were to show the ref any auld effort to appear turn-over experts. 'We're good at this stuff, ref. Remember Warburton, sir? He woz Welsh. He taught us all the skills here, sir. We're experts.'

It was France. Even the English have been saying it online everywhere I look, must be a strong point there if those anti-welsh lot can admit it. We're due some good luck soon, just probably not against Ireland if they have a French ref, some of which need to be retired like your beloved Glen Jackson.

I thought the French got more joy at the breakdown because they attempted to rip the ball when over the breakdown. Wales tended to get hands on the ball and call for the penalty. Both sides were equally bad at using the players on the floor for support. The final turnover which caused the most ire from the Welsh players was probably one of the cleanest in the game though, that did make me chuckle.

England are due some luck as well so may well even itself up.

We'll miss Nigel most. Might even have him as Grand Marshall in Dublin's St. Paddy's day parade as a thank you for services rendered.

But back to the breakdown. Yis were all at it. You and the French. Like one of Shakespeare's Kingly action plays.... a lorrah grandiose acting.

No 7&1/2 wrote:England are due some luck as well so may well even itself up.

You got Sexton and Murray. Don't be greedy now

True enough. They weren't at the races were they. Has to be said I was waxing lyrical about lamour and would still have him in the england team in a heartbeat but he made a couple of expensive gaffes on sunday.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I thought the French got more joy at the breakdown because they attempted to rip the ball when over the breakdown. Wales tended to get hands on the ball and call for the penalty. Both sides were equally bad at using the players on the floor for support. The final turnover which caused the most ire from the Welsh players was probably one of the cleanest in the game though, that did make me chuckle.

A good turnover, I think it was the fact that the ref was quicker to call it compared to what he had been all game. Like you said it was one of the cleanest in the game though.

Alldritt has to be the most overrated player of the weekend. Got dominantly tackled for most of his runs. Received a yellow and probably would have got a second one with another ref. I don't particularly rate the Saffa-French locks that highly either, they're just lumps. Ollivon and the halfback were very good.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:I seem to remember a few cheap shots from both teams yesterday. The ref and assistants just seemed to ignore no arm clean outs at the ruck from both sides. Both Farrell and Stander should probably have warmed a naughty chair for their spat . Especially after both captains had already been given the waggy finger from the ref as I remember it.

Each to their own. I believe all's fair that the ref doesn't catch apart from actions whose primary purpose is to cause injury.

The Irish clearouts were too much for my liking, but penalties and some control from the ref would be preferable to cards.

Some interesting ruck play here!

https://twitter.com/smallclone_/status/1231596338946678784?s=21

Disappointing that the touch judges weren't helping the ref out there. If he's on the far side of the ruck and maybe doesn't have the best view a little "Green 3 in at the side" comment into the ear piece and then it's up to the ref whether he goes with it or not.

It’s the way the first guy at the start of the clip is in from the side, then Toner gets up and does exactly the same! But neither pinged

No 7&1/2 wrote:True enough. They weren't at the races were they. Has to be said I was waxing lyrical about lamour and would still have him in the england team in a heartbeat but he made a couple of expensive gaffes on sunday.

Sexton and Murray is a unit that no longer works.  They just don't function.  And it's no point bringing up games they win.  They are not winnng the top games, the important big games, so therefore they just don't work.  From early in the game on Sunday I was pleading for Farrell to just get Murray off.  It rarely happens.  Even when coaches quickly realise a player is out of their depth, it still just rarely happens - courtesy must be extended to the starter and leave him in there for 40 to 50 minutes.  I hate that lingering, traditional etiquette.  It loses teams games.

But anyway, Andy Farrell was wrong to pick Murray and yet was still scratching his head at the weekend.  In doing so he was just mimicking the head scratching of Schmidt a few months earlier.  And it has to be disingenuous.  They both had to have known that Sexton and Murray aren't working any more.  So why keep picking them?

You won't find the alternative partnership on the training field.  You'll have to test it on the playing field in real contests.  Both Schmidt and now Farrell evaded that truth because they had and now have pressures. The thoughts of losing for the sake of experimentation scared Schmidt off.  But at least he had a big excuse.  WC 2019.  Not a time to be saying we need a new flyhalf and scrumhalf.  So he stuck with the familiar.  

Yet there is no other truth more glaring in this Irish set up.  Sexton and Murray have reached their end as a partnership.  Ireland needs new conductors at 9, at 10 or at both positions.  And Farrell can't delay that search any longer.  But will fear of losing too many games stall him anyway?

So back to your point about Larmour.  The entire team is now looking impotent and full of nervy errors because the players are even more aware of the need for freshness at 9 and 10 than the coaches are. The team is in limbo, waiting and waiting for a repair job to be done on 9 and 10.

SecretFly wrote: The entire team is now looking impotent and full of nervy errors because the players are even more aware of the need for freshness at 9 and 10 than the coaches are. The team is in limbo, waiting and waiting for a repair job to be done on 9 and 10.

After round one that was the theory about England

Gooseberry wrote:

SecretFly wrote: The entire team is now looking impotent and full of nervy errors because the players are even more aware of the need for freshness at 9 and 10 than the coaches are. The team is in limbo, waiting and waiting for a repair job to be done on 9 and 10.

After round one that was the theory about England

But only in England.

We laugh at all that stuff about Ford v Farrell v Youngs etc. Big problems for WC finalists perhaps. Tiny, luxury ones down our way though

Hadn't seen this stat:

https://twitter.com/SimonGleave/status/1231694542778306567

The England starting XV against Ireland had 779 caps, making it the most experienced England team ever to take the field in international rugby.

The table in that tweet shows 9 of the 10 England starting XVs with the most caps have been selected by Jones. 6th on the list is the England XV which faced Wales in the 2003 World Cup quarter final.

Personally, I thought that Stockdale was poor and he has been for the last few games. I would have had Earls starting ahead of him and when Earls came on, he played very well (excellent pass to set up a nice break down the wing).

Murray, well as good as he is/has been, its so blatantly obvious that Cooney has to be given a start ahead of him. I was hoping that he would start against England. Cooney is the form 9, has quicker distribution and is kicking better than Murray right now so its a no brainer for me.

Aki, did what Aki does, strong and can defend but too often any momentum stops with him and he is easy to defend against as he rarely off loads. Surely its time for McCloskey or Farrell to be given another chance.

Henshaw, very lucky not to be carded for his late hit on May but otherwise had a solid if unspectacular game.

Sexton was Sexton, if he misses an early kick then he seems to simply deflate and has bad games from then on. I would not put him out to pasture just yet though as I think he will be very important in bringing Cooney through as the starting 9 going forward. Not captain material though.

POM, well he either starts as Captain or does not start for me. Playing POM at 6 and CJ at 8 just does not seem to be as balanced as other options at international level (have said this for some time).

Larmour needs to be continued with at 15, he made some defensive mistakes but is well worth persisting with as it will pay off.

The tight 5 missed Henderson incredibly. As good as Toner has been, he is passed it and should no longer be selected.

POM has always been an enigma to me, he's either the best player on the pitch or next to useless. There's no inbetween or consistency.

Soul Requiem wrote:POM has always been an enigma to me, he's either the best player on the pitch or next to useless. There's no inbetween or consistency.

He chooses when. It's a habit. He calls it pacing his career. He'll still be on the subs bench at 50.

Soul Requiem wrote:POM has always been an enigma to me, he's either the best player on the pitch or next to useless. There's no inbetween or consistency.

I think it depends on the speed of the game, if it's fast his lack of pace is an issue, in a tighter more stop start game he can hava a big impact at the lineout and break down.

VDF by contrast is almost the opposite, he was anonymous on Saturday when we were crying out for ball carriers. He was just losing collisions against bigger men. When the game is more fluid he excels with his workrate and speed of the line.

eirebilly wrote:Personally, I thought that Stockdale was poor and he has been for the last few games. I would have had Earls starting ahead of him and when Earls came on, he played very well (excellent pass to set up a nice break down the wing).

Murray, well as good as he is/has been, its so blatantly obvious that Cooney has to be given a start ahead of him. I was hoping that he would start against England. Cooney is the form 9, has quicker distribution and is kicking better than Murray right now so its a no brainer for me.

Aki, did what Aki does, strong and can defend but too often any momentum stops with him and he is easy to defend against as he rarely off loads. Surely its time for McCloskey or Farrell to be given another chance.

Henshaw, very lucky not to be carded for his late hit on May but otherwise had a solid if unspectacular game.

Sexton was Sexton, if he misses an early kick then he seems to simply deflate and has bad games from then on. I would not put him out to pasture just yet though as I think he will be very important in bringing Cooney through as the starting 9 going forward. Not captain material though.

POM, well he either starts as Captain or does not start for me. Playing POM at 6 and CJ at 8 just does not seem to be as balanced as other options at international level (have said this for some time).

Larmour needs to be continued with at 15, he made some defensive mistakes but is well worth persisting with as it will pay off.

The tight 5 missed Henderson incredibly. As good as Toner has been, he is passed it and should no longer be selected.

I agree Stockdale had a bit of a nightmare, but I would say the same about Larmour. Even Conway was outclassed by May.

I think though to go back to the likes of Earls sends out a bad message to the younger players that a few mistakes and they get dumped.

If anything is true, I think we have to be bolder with selections now - look at Doris, Kelleher, Cooney, Byrne against Italy and if they play well then retain them for France.

The biggest concern is Sexton, he is badly out of sorts but given he is captain Farrell has to stick with him for the championship at least.

rodders wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:POM has always been an enigma to me, he's either the best player on the pitch or next to useless. There's no inbetween or consistency.

I think it depends on the speed of the game, if it's fast his lack of pace is an issue, in a tighter more stop start game he can hava a big impact at the lineout and break down.

VDF by contrast is almost the opposite, he was anonymous on Saturday when we were crying out for ball carriers. He was just losing collisions against bigger men. When the game is more fluid he excels with his workrate and speed of the line.  

Exactly.  One a typical Munster classic exponent of grindhouse rugby.  The other more tuned to Leinster's prefered game style.  Both brands to be respected but perhaps the very continuing problem with Ireland.  We do need a coin toss to determine finally which brand will be the 'Irish' way and choose players accordingly to service it.

Small example is that Sexton Murray partnership.  
Never personally understood it, even when it was quite potent in results terms.  Murray was from boxkick Munster, playing with a 10 whose main Leinster job was releasing backs alongside more zippy 9s.  Just really two different styles - a forced mix.  
It worked in a way but boy I think we missed out on much by insisting on not putting Sexton next to a faster 9.  That rigidity or stubbornness on the part of Schmidt stalled our evolution from the high ground platform we had in 2018.  He just didn't want to see the limitations it imposed on the team, especially in that bad bad year of 2019.  Now it's a bigger fix because now Sexton too needs to be replaced.

lostinwales wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:I seem to remember a few cheap shots from both teams yesterday. The ref and assistants just seemed to ignore no arm clean outs at the ruck from both sides. Both Farrell and Stander should probably have warmed a naughty chair for their spat . Especially after both captains had already been given the waggy finger from the ref as I remember it.

Each to their own. I believe all's fair that the ref doesn't catch apart from actions whose primary purpose is to cause injury.

The Irish clearouts were too much for my liking, but penalties and some control from the ref would be preferable to cards.

I do wonder if part of the reticence to call chargingbis because it's a cardable offence and therefore a big decision to make.
There were so many so blatant incidents from Irleand in that game though, once the ref had let it slide in the 4th minute it was open season. But to card someone in the openg minutes is often cited as "ruining the game" and a big call to make.
Ref bottled it and things got worse. Had that first ridiculous series of charges from the side been correctly penalised the Ireland wouldve bucked their ideas up pretty fast and could shift blame to the ref for why they got spooned in the first half.

rodders wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:POM has always been an enigma to me, he's either the best player on the pitch or next to useless. There's no inbetween or consistency.

I think it depends on the speed of the game, if it's fast his lack of pace is an issue, in a tighter more stop start game he can hava a big impact at the lineout and break down.

VDF by contrast is almost the opposite, he was anonymous on Saturday when we were crying out for ball carriers. He was just losing collisions against bigger men. When the game is more fluid he excels with his workrate and speed of the line.  

I agree with this. As an England fan, VDF had probably been my main worry going into the game but just didn't show up at all.

I think he's been fantastic throughout the rest of the tournament but just didn't hit the hits at the weekend, for whatever reason.

Sexton was out of sorts when Farrell chose him as Captain.  That damn political stuff does damage again.  

If Farrell had the courage to see the truth, that Sexton's time at the helm of the team was dwindling, and had he this personality that everyone seems to be lauding, then he would have found a way of articulating to Sexton that he needed to develop a new side, still needed Sexton for the immediate future but had to choose a Captain now for the 2023 cycle.
I said Stander when choosing was in the news.  Nothing since has made me change my mind.  He's the natural in the current selection.

Gooseberry wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:I seem to remember a few cheap shots from both teams yesterday. The ref and assistants just seemed to ignore no arm clean outs at the ruck from both sides. Both Farrell and Stander should probably have warmed a naughty chair for their spat . Especially after both captains had already been given the waggy finger from the ref as I remember it.

Each to their own. I believe all's fair that the ref doesn't catch apart from actions whose primary purpose is to cause injury.

The Irish clearouts were too much for my liking, but penalties and some control from the ref would be preferable to cards.

I do wonder if part of the reticence to call chargingbis because it's a cardable offence and therefore a big decision to make.
There were so many so blatant incidents from Irleand in that game though, once the ref had let it slide in the 4th minute it was open season. But to card someone in the openg minutes is often cited as "ruining the game" and a big call to make.
Ref bottled it and things got worse. Had that first ridiculous series of charges from the side been correctly penalised the  Ireland wouldve bucked their ideas up pretty fast and could shift blame to the ref for why they got spooned in the first half.

Peyper is a bit of a free-for-all ref.  He's like a teacher who can still conduct a class in a room full of pupils hitting each other on the head with rulers, throwing paper planes, screaming insults at each other, betting on boxing matches at the back, drinking beer with some invited ladies of the night, showing their pet king cobra to their mates, fixing their scramblers, playing music loudly, doing their homework by holding class swots at gunpoint and stealing their copies.....
.... all that's going on and he's still rattling away about Pythagoras's Theorem.  We've all had'em.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:POM has always been an enigma to me, he's either the best player on the pitch or next to useless. There's no inbetween or consistency.

I think it depends on the speed of the game, if it's fast his lack of pace is an issue, in a tighter more stop start game he can hava a big impact at the lineout and break down.

VDF by contrast is almost the opposite, he was anonymous on Saturday when we were crying out for ball carriers. He was just losing collisions against bigger men. When the game is more fluid he excels with his workrate and speed of the line.  

Exactly.  One a typical Munster classic exponent of grindhouse rugby.  The other more tuned to Leinster's prefered game style.  Both brands to be respected but perhaps the very continuing problem with Ireland.  We do need a coin toss to determine finally which brand will be the 'Irish' way and choose players accordingly to service it.

I just thought we looked disorganized and confused. Obviously Farrell and Catt are wanting a certain style of play but as with the Scotland game it just wasn't working, England were shutting us down and we were losing metres. Then we seemed to revert to panic mode and either just keep going backwards or just using a poorly executed box kick, when May and Daly are sublime in teh air.

The thing that irks me most is that it was so obvious that we could end up in this situation, losing metres, maybe going behind in the game early. Getting caught out last season was understandable to a point but the warning signs were there in the opening games.

Therefore that our players just seemed to revert to panic mode and go into their shells early in the game really says something about the management and coaches. On field we lacked leadership as well but I just think after the first England try well fell apart and never really recovered.  

Individually some players lost their heads a bit in frustration as well.

Losing I think wasn't too much of a concern at Twickenham but the fact we never were really in the game at any point and just fell apart so early on is really worrying. Towards the end of Kidneys reign we saw the same, the players just looked like they wanted to be somewhere else, the same sort of malaise seems to be there now.

I would love to see us bounce back and win our next 2 games, but I just see us beating Italy and getting beat in Paris, possibly heavily if we don't see a huge improvement. France will play the blitz defense as well.

Rodders....rugby is such a game of momentum as well. Get off to a good start and get over the gain line a few times and you build up a head of steam and confidence starts to flow throughout a team. On Sunday it was England who managed this, but in the RWC final and in Paris they did not. It seems very hard to change the course of a match once it is underway. Ireland lacked some big ball carriers, whereas England coped much better this time without the Vunipolas. Lawes really stepped up and nearly all of us criticised his selection.

The new coaching team need a little time and one poor away performance is no time to panic. I expect Ireland to get better.

I hope to God my instincts can allow me to predict a quite potent, possibly angry and ruthless win over Italy (should the game now even go ahead)
.... and indeed, I still think we have a chance at beating France in France (should that one go ahead).
When I criticise - heavily - it's not because I feel we're in a hopeless state.  We might have scored something like 17 points in that game had Sexton not lost his boots; 24-17?  - with us looking absolutely abject and powerless?  
To me over the last few years, we look a side that is clinging on waiting for a spark now to ignite it again.  And to me, my primary focus on generating that spark is fixing 9 and 10.  I believe then we'll see players come out of their box and acquire more Genuine confidence; because right now, despite any bluster in interview, this is still a side with extreme ill-at-ease body language.  Opposition smell that too. But fix the glaring issues and we will charge our physicality again - as a lot of that physicality comes from true confidence which in turn generates adrenaline.

We have very good raw materials.  But our 9 and 10 are broken.  No side can function competitively at the top of the rankings with a broken 9 and 10.  In this regard you might even say we're doing better than most side would under such circumstances.  The raw resources are there - but the coaches have to solve the dominant issues in personnel choice.

So I can still visualise us putting it up to France.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Peter Stringer wrote:I can’t wait until Schmidt is sacked as all our problems will be fixed. We will play heads up rugby, a raft of new players will come in, we will play with tempo and attacking aggression, and we will be world beaters again, just like under Declan Kidney.

On another note, there’s a man from Carrick-on-Suir who bred the first dog in space. He had to get the specimen himself but he’s well known for having cold hands. He showed more attention to bouncing balls than the Irish back three on Sunday.

Haha, who is this punter.

Outrageous post. I should have known based on the fact it is from a consigliere in the D4 mafia. You are clearly attempting to hide your real comment- if I swap the P for a C and drop the -er from Punter it shows your true colours. I see you. I know your game. In that case, so is your ma.

Look at that twitter video in the article!!!!!! Ireland what are you doing?

https://rugbydump.com/news/ben-ryan-reiterates-that-rugby-laws-are-blatantly-broken-and-ignored

TightHEAD wrote:Look at that twitter video in the article!!!!!! Ireland what are you doing?

https://rugbydump.com/news/ben-ryan-reiterates-that-rugby-laws-are-blatantly-broken-and-ignored

Same video as before. I do think the clear outs are wrong on several levels but you should complain about the TMO and referee rather than Ireland.

TMO was asleep I think.

What was the ref watching as he was looking right at it, is it any wonder Farrell had enough and held on whilst Stander assaulted him.

As for Ireland either of those could have been carded, you just can't do that.

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was asleep I think.

What was the ref watching as he was looking right at it, is it any wonder Farrell had enough and held on whilst Stander assaulted him.

As for Ireland either of those could have been carded, you just can't do that.

I suppose we're going to be told that England never, ever clear out rucks like that?

Pete330v2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was asleep I think.

What was the ref watching as he was looking right at it, is it any wonder Farrell had enough and held on whilst Stander assaulted him.

As for Ireland either of those could have been carded, you just can't do that.

I suppose we're going to be told that England never, ever clear out rucks like that?

You'll be able to provide examples from that match then?

I'm sure we could all post examples of rucks where we would personally disagree with the ref and each other but they are borderline reds.

Pete330v2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was asleep I think.

What was the ref watching as he was looking right at it, is it any wonder Farrell had enough and held on whilst Stander assaulted him.

As for Ireland either of those could have been carded, you just can't do that.

I suppose we're going to be told that England never, ever clear out rucks like that?

The main visible issues with England at rucks was the whole tying people in thing (Farrell of course and Itoje wanting to keep Stander's shirt are the two obvious examples).

You can argue that is being a, err, 'twonk' but it does not in itself endanger players. The highlighted issues with Ireland were downright dangerous.

Imagine the uproar had Farrell done the same thing to an Irish player

In fairness it was bloody lucky that it was Tom Curry on the receiving end. Had it been someone with a more volatile nature it could have kicked off, it is to Toms credit that he made absolute nothing of it.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was asleep I think.

What was the ref watching as he was looking right at it, is it any wonder Farrell had enough and held on whilst Stander assaulted him.

As for Ireland either of those could have been carded, you just can't do that.

I suppose we're going to be told that England never, ever clear out rucks like that?

You'll be able to provide examples from that match then?

I didn't mention a match and as I am rubbish at adding video etc here I'll try a link to just one example. I think from the fixture in Dublin last year.

https://twitter.com/theblitzdefence/status/1091749964504535040/video/1

Now stop the whinging everyone, you'd think you'd lost ffs.

So maybe the Irish players were going over the reels and decided 'we're not going to be on the receiving end of that this year. Gotta stand up for ourselves.' ?

Yup tuilagi with a shoulder to the side is similar to in at the side to head. Technique from Ireland was a trick dodgy and stander looks like he can be rattled pretty easily. Expect the opposition to target the ref with comments and stander with niggles.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was asleep I think.

What was the ref watching as he was looking right at it, is it any wonder Farrell had enough and held on whilst Stander assaulted him.

As for Ireland either of those could have been carded, you just can't do that.

I suppose we're going to be told that England never, ever clear out rucks like that?

You'll be able to provide examples from that match then?

I didn't mention a match and as I am rubbish at adding video etc here I'll try a link to just one example. I think from the fixture in Dublin last year.

https://twitter.com/theblitzdefence/status/1091749964504535040/video/1

Now stop the whinging everyone, you'd think you'd lost ffs.

OK thats all right then. Lets all keep on trying to take people's heads off.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup tuilagi with a shoulder to the side is similar to in at the side to head. Technique from Ireland was a trick dodgy and stander looks like he can be rattled pretty easily. Expect the opposition to target the ref with comments and stander with niggles.

Maybe Stander didn't like words that might have been rattling his way?  We're all so ready to jump on slurs, insults and barbs directed at one's racial profile.  But the rest of it is probably considered okay if you're white?

Seemed a quite charged affair from early on and in more ways than just physical contact.  I think there must have been a lot of verbal 'niggles' going on, maybe in the very hope that something Irish might catch a yellow or red.

In any case, a bad tempered game on many levels.  One for the sausages I suppose.

Oh the victimised white man. My heart bleeds.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh the victimised white man. My heart bleeds.

Oh now 7 - don't go down that road.
Better to just agree that it seemed a very bad tempered game and a lot of chatter seemed to be going on - a lot of chatter. I'll bet quite a bit of it was meant to hurt, insult and goad as that's what bad tempered games kinda thrive on, don't they.
We're all human. I know I'd reacted if I thought it too spicy - and yeah, I'm white.

lostinwales wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:TMO was asleep I think.

What was the ref watching as he was looking right at it, is it any wonder Farrell had enough and held on whilst Stander assaulted him.

As for Ireland either of those could have been carded, you just can't do that.

I suppose we're going to be told that England never, ever clear out rucks like that?

You'll be able to provide examples from that match then?

I didn't mention a match and as I am rubbish at adding video etc here I'll try a link to just one example. I think from the fixture in Dublin last year.

https://twitter.com/theblitzdefence/status/1091749964504535040/video/1

Now stop the whinging everyone, you'd think you'd lost ffs.

OK thats all right then. Lets all keep on trying to take people's heads off.

No it isn't alright but whines in glass houses etc.

I agree Ireland were rattled and the tmo Kelly ot reasonably respectable.