England's Summer

First topic message reminder :

With our Six Nations Campaign over (for now) with us currently top of the table https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/table/ (Award the Tropy now ), it is time to look ahead to what the next few months will bring.

The key debating points are:

-> Who will tour in the Summer to Japan
-> What will be the outcome of Eddie's meeting with Bill Sweeney (RFU CEO)


Fixtures

Noting that much depends on whether Japan is allowing sporting matches in July. With the Premiership final on the 20th June, the weekend of the 27/28th could be available to fulfill the Italy fixture - with that team then having the summer off as planned and the younger lads going to Japan.

Italy (a) TBC
Barbarians (h) 21st June
Japan (a) 4th July
Japan (a) 11th July


Squads

will be updated when we know something, but for now we can discuss who will likely travel.



Eddie's Future

Eddie is currently contracted until the summer of 2021 and is scheduled to meet the boss to discuss his future. Should it be decided he is not staying beyond then is there any point in him staying on? Perhaps bring in the replacement to work with him for a year? That may cause a conflict - but then I have no idea who would replace Eddie other than perhaps John Mitchell.

As said above, all players in the RWC squad with more than 20 match involvements (20 minutes or more) this season are meant to be rested. If so we may well see a lot more new players. I hope a few of the 6 Nations squad travel for game time and as Japan will be strong at home.

1.Genge, Obano, Harrison
2.Dunn, Singleton, Thacker
3.Stuart, Williams, Collier, Street
4.Launchbury, Isiekwe
5.Ewels, Kpoku, Hill
6.Wilson, Hill
7.Ludlam, B Curry
8.Earl, Mercer

9.Spencer, Maunder, Randall
10.Smith, Simmonds

11.Nowell, Ibitoye
12.Devoto, Lozowski
13.Marchant, Lawrence, Dingwall
14.Thorley, McConnochie
15.Furbank, Mallinder, Malins

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Thw world has officially gone mad.

So you can have a cheeky bit of banter and get 3 times the ban of a guy who lands a full on punch on the pitch.

Who ever came up with those bans need their heads read.

That could be the end of Joes England career...he may go back into retirement.

Fondling someone's dick is not banter.

Well that would seem to divide opinions LT...hell even Barclay and Paul O'Connell said it was and said a ban would be bery harsh.

Manu got six weeks and then two week reduction for mitigation. Despite some high profile incidents in the past I don't think Manu has picked up a ban recently. Mainly due to the sheer number of injuries I suppose.

Marler got 12 weeks, less three weeks in mitigation plus a week for his previous. I guess Marler thought it'd be taken as a joke between him and an old Lions teammate but as soon as AWJ called for action he was always going to get a whopping ban. You can't be grabbing other players by the crouch.

The French prop got a 6 week ban reduced to 3 weeks for previous good behaviour.

Soul Requiem wrote:Marler- 10 week ban
Haouas- 3 week ban

Doesn't quite add up to me.

Manu -4  week ban
Lawes - no idea why he was cited.

Parkes -  nothing.
L.Willams - bugger all.

Eddie was right.

king_carlos wrote:As said above, all players in the RWC squad with more than 20 match involvements (20 minutes or more) this season are meant to be rested. If so we may well see a lot more new players. I hope a few of the 6 Nations squad travel for game time and as Japan will be strong at home.

1.Genge, Obano, Harrison
2.Dunn, Singleton, Thacker
3.Stuart, Williams, Collier, Street
4.Launchbury, Isiekwe
5.Ewels, Kpoku, Hill
6.Wilson, Hill
7.Ludlam, B Curry
8.Earl, Mercer

9.Spencer, Maunder, Randall
10.Smith, Simmonds

11.Nowell, Ibitoye
12.Devoto, Lozowski
13.Marchant, Lawrence, Dingwall
14.Thorley, McConnochie
15.Furbank, Mallinder, Malins

I'd hope Genge gets the summer off. Given Nowell's injury problems he should have a summer to heal up as well. Furbank was poor so I don't see the point in taking him, Collier is also a rank average club player I see no point in having him on tour.

Not really sure you can judge Furbank on his debut and that Scotland match.

Soul Requiem wrote:Not really sure you can judge Furbank on his debut and that Scotland match.

If he goes back to his club and pulls up trees I'll change my mind. Currently I'd rather look at more creative options. Furbank was supposed to be the type of fullback that would command at the back but he didn't. He offers less going forward than we get with wing/fullback option so I'd send him back to Saints with some work ons and if he delivers he gets in if he doesn't then we go with Mallinder and Mallins. Mallins has looked exciting for a couple of years and only injury seems to stop him progressing to international rugby and Mallinder is a similar story, he's pretty much built for modern test rugby.

It just seems like a massive over reaction based on one game and I wouldn't want Mallinder anywhere near the England set up.

Soul Requiem wrote:It just seems like a massive over reaction based on one game and I wouldn't want Mallinder anywhere near the England set up.

May I ask, why?

Why Mallinder has the potential to be a star on the international stage? He's got all the physical attributes and more than enough vision to be a playmaking 15. His shoulder issue that left him a defensive turnstile has healed and really only injury has held him back.

Overreaction from two games? Not really. Furbank's a talented young player but international rugby is cut throat, you perform if you want to keep the jersey. As I said if he goes away and tears up trees with Saints I'd happily have him back in but his 6N form made him look out of his depth. He has plenty of time to improve and return.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:It just seems like a massive over reaction based on one game and I wouldn't want Mallinder anywhere near the England set up.

May I ask, why?

I think people get too carried away with his physical gifts and until he consistently shows up defensively I'd keep a wide berth.

I actually think Furbank did alright against Scotland considering the conditions and prefer to see young players backed instead of ditched at the first chance.

Soul Requiem wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:It just seems like a massive over reaction based on one game and I wouldn't want Mallinder anywhere near the England set up.

May I ask, why?

I think people get too carried away with his physical gifts and until he consistently shows up defensively I'd keep a wide berth.

I actually think Furbank did alright against Scotland considering the conditions and prefer to see young players backed instead of ditched at the first chance.

Well I agree with the second part. Mallinder had defensive problems due to a damaged shoulder which has now healed, playing at 15 he doesn't have to go into the massive contact tackles he used to at 12 and as he is starting to show his positioning at 15 is getting better. He will hopefully in what is left of the season improve on this as well, if we have any season left.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd hope Genge gets the summer off. Given Nowell's injury problems he should have a summer to heal up as well. Furbank was poor so I don't see the point in taking him, Collier is also a rank average club player I see no point in having him on tour.

The 20 match involvements can be overlooked apparently so Genge may choose to go if it gives him a chance to start tests. Similar with Nowell, Launchbury, Wilson and Ludlam.

May had an average start to his international career. Yarde looked something special with a brace on debut and a strong series in NZ, then he faded. Furbank's form for Saints warrants more than two games, one in a poor team performance and the other in conditions we may not see again in our lifetimes.

Collier is a cracking scrummager who has been hit by injury. He started ahead of Sinckler for a while at Quins a lot seem to forget. Offers no less than Stuart, Williams or Cooper-Wooley in my opinion. If we are targeting the scrum more then he's a good option.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:It just seems like a massive over reaction based on one game and I wouldn't want Mallinder anywhere near the England set up.

May I ask, why?

I think people get too carried away with his physical gifts and until he consistently shows up defensively I'd keep a wide berth.

I actually think Furbank did alright against Scotland considering the conditions and prefer to see young players backed instead of ditched at the first chance.

Well I agree with the second part. Mallinder had defensive problems due to a damaged shoulder which has now healed, playing at 15 he doesn't have to go into the massive contact tackles he used to at 12 and as he is starting to show his positioning at 15 is getting better. He will hopefully in what is left of the season improve on this as well, if we have any season left.

I'd like to see him given a full season to adapt to full back and prove himself over a period of time, he may well prove me wrong but I'd be far more confident selecting Furbank. I'll be interested to see what Saints do when both are available.

The whpole 20 games thing will most likely be out the window soon enough. Expect all games to be cancelled from next weekend, and the summer tour a huge doubt too.

Soul Requiem wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:It just seems like a massive over reaction based on one game and I wouldn't want Mallinder anywhere near the England set up.

May I ask, why?

I think people get too carried away with his physical gifts and until he consistently shows up defensively I'd keep a wide berth.

I actually think Furbank did alright against Scotland considering the conditions and prefer to see young players backed instead of ditched at the first chance.

Well I agree with the second part. Mallinder had defensive problems due to a damaged shoulder which has now healed, playing at 15 he doesn't have to go into the massive contact tackles he used to at 12 and as he is starting to show his positioning at 15 is getting better. He will hopefully in what is left of the season improve on this as well, if we have any season left.

I'd like to see him given a full season to adapt to full back and prove himself over a period of time, he may well prove me wrong but I'd be far more confident selecting Furbank. I'll be interested to see what Saints do when both are available.

At the moment, with him available, they are selecting Mallinder

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd hope Genge gets the summer off. Given Nowell's injury problems he should have a summer to heal up as well. Furbank was poor so I don't see the point in taking him, Collier is also a rank average club player I see no point in having him on tour.

The 20 match involvements can be overlooked apparently so Genge may choose to go if it gives him a chance to start tests. Similar with Nowell, Launchbury, Wilson and Ludlam.

May had an average start to his international career. Yarde looked something special with a brace on debut and a strong series in NZ, then he faded. Furbank's form for Saints warrants more than two games, one in a poor team performance and the other in conditions we may not see again in our lifetimes.

Collier is a cracking scrummager who has been hit by injury. He started ahead of Sinckler for a while at Quins a lot seem to forget. Offers no less than Stuart, Williams or Cooper-Wooley in my opinion. If we are targeting the scrum more then he's a good option.

Non-selection for a minor summer tour isn't the end of the world and not the end of his test career. His selection was an experiment and having been introduced to the setup he'll have some work ons. This summer tour is the ideal opportunity to push competition in the squad and fullback is an area we desperately need to expand our list of options.

Collier is the type of solid reliable club player you want at your club. At 28 he's never looked more than that and we have options that are younger and who could offer significantly more. Painter and Heyes could be top tightheads and I'd like to see at least one travel with Williams who has always looked perfectly at home but not excelled at international level. Stuart I was a bit surprised to see called up but if Eddie's seen something he needs more game time to show it.

I won't be surprised when the 20 involvements is overlooked but we should be going beyond that. This is a perfect chance for a development tour and to get the current squad rested. Players in both world cup and 6N squads should be left at home, ideal time to promote competition for places. If you apply that rule Singleton could still go and so could Dunn so hooker would be well stocked and so on. We've got depth so let's get them capped and see what they've got.

Funnily enough i thought Daly did ok at FB.

Looked like Saracens had added a bit of steel to him already.
Is he staying with Saracens?

1 swallow doesnt make a summer tour.

No 7&1/2 wrote:1 swallow doesnt make a summer tour.

Depends what was swalllowed? Hmmmm....., Henson would have a few things go say, no doubt.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Funnily enough i thought Daly did ok at FB.

Looked like Saracens had added a bit of steel to him already.
Is he staying with Saracens?

apparently

What happens with the suspensions now that the season has been suspended?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:What happens with the suspensions now that the season has been suspended?

A brush and a carpet....plus evasionary

SecretFly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:What happens with the suspensions now that the season has been suspended?

A brush and a carpet....plus evasionary

evasionary? Not sure what that means, but the rest is just storing up the dirt for a later date

Neologism for an underhand whistle....

Is Neologism a Neologism?

No. You're mixing it up with Neologisidationism - which in truth, many people tend to do......

Only if they have a twisted tongue

What about those with forked tongues?

The knives are always out for those guys.

Leave 'em alone. Quit picking on them.

I really miss the days of why tom youngs is too small for international rugby and has rubbish throwing and why saracens 3rd choice players are better than a first choice pick at a 3rd place team playing to financial boundaries. Much better than worrying about elderly parents.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I really miss the days of why tom youngs is too small for international rugby and has rubbish throwing and why saracens 3rd choice players are better than a first choice pick at a 3rd place team playing to financial boundaries. Much better than worrying about elderly parents.

Thacker is better than Tom Youngs.

Will there be a summer tour this year?

Will there be any rugby played at all this year?

How long will this virus last?

Should the 6n now be scrapped this year?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I really miss the days of why tom youngs is too small for international rugby and has rubbish throwing and why saracens 3rd choice players are better than a first choice pick at a 3rd place team playing to financial boundaries. Much better than worrying about elderly parents.

Thacker is better than Tom Youngs.

I remember the days of some of the members of this board saying Thacker was too small to play hooker and should be a 7.

Turns out he's pretty quality really. He could be a 7 as well to be fair.

I was gutted when he left Tigers. He always showed signs of being an excellent player, his lineout work was reliable and in the right front row he could do the job. In the loose well he's a dynamo. Was never going to get game time with MOC though, he picked on size first.

majesticimperialman wrote:Will there be a summer tour this year?

Will there be any rugby played at all this year?

How long will this virus last?

Should the 6n now be scrapped this year?

1. I'd predict not. It sounds like the worst will last months rather than weeks.

2. Domestic leagues I honestly have no idea what to predict. The Prem is lucky in a way that relegation and promotion are pretty much decided.

3. No-one knows currently. I know NHS staff in long distance relationships who have partners that are looking to move nearer to them now in case there are travel restrictions down the line. Rotations for NHS staff are being cancelled. Usually they change jobs in April, chatter from consultants and registrars is they won't until August. Britain has a large high risk population.

4. The 6 Nations represents such a big money spinner for rugby that it's one of the few tournaments I think may be rescheduled for early next season. Perhaps before the Autumn Internationals or even at the very start of the season. Players could get some match fitness in pre-season games and the opening league rounds, then play the rearranged games before the first European group games?

king_carlos wrote:4. The 6 Nations represents such a big money spinner for rugby that it's one of the few tournaments I think may be rescheduled for early next season. Perhaps before the Autumn Internationals or even at the very start of the season. Players could get some match fitness in pre-season games and the opening league rounds, then play the rearranged games before the first European group games?

Maybe cancel Champions Cup as it currently runs and start it in December as a round robin, random draw tournament like the FA cup. Seeing Leinster V Munster in the opening round, with Exeter V Racing or such like would be fantastic. Possible cup run for teams like Edinburgh or Sale would also be appealing to what has become a very stale competition over the last 10 years.

Free up those weekends in October for the re-arranged Six Nations, and also then playing the autumn games with battle-hardened home nations would be great too.

MichaelT wrote:

king_carlos wrote:4. The 6 Nations represents such a big money spinner for rugby that it's one of the few tournaments I think may be rescheduled for early next season. Perhaps before the Autumn Internationals or even at the very start of the season. Players could get some match fitness in pre-season games and the opening league rounds, then play the rearranged games before the first European group games?

Maybe cancel Champions Cup as it currently runs and start it in December as a round robin, random draw tournament like the FA cup. Seeing Leinster V Munster in the opening round, with Exeter V Racing or such like would be fantastic. Possible cup run for teams like Edinburgh or Sale would also be appealing to what has become a very stale competition over the last 10 years.

Free up those weekends in October for the re-arranged Six Nations, and also then playing the autumn games with battle-hardened home nations would be great too.

I hoped we could see a cup like that replace the old Anglo-Welsh cup.

That'd never happen in European rugby due to it bringing in money.

Crowds for European games on average are much better. When the Welsh regions were formed in 2003 David Moffett set a target average attendance of 8,000 which all 4 are currently below I believe. Similar in Scotland. I attend a fair few Edinburgh games these days being based up here, the odd bigger crowd for the 1872 cup and European games is a vital boost. Meanwhile the Prem lost an aggregate £44.1m last season. That with the Twickenham games providing bumper crowds to some as well.

A round robin tournament would see many sides not get a single European home game all season. Clubs could likely fold off the back of that.

king_carlos wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

king_carlos wrote:4. The 6 Nations represents such a big money spinner for rugby that it's one of the few tournaments I think may be rescheduled for early next season. Perhaps before the Autumn Internationals or even at the very start of the season. Players could get some match fitness in pre-season games and the opening league rounds, then play the rearranged games before the first European group games?

Maybe cancel Champions Cup as it currently runs and start it in December as a round robin, random draw tournament like the FA cup. Seeing Leinster V Munster in the opening round, with Exeter V Racing or such like would be fantastic. Possible cup run for teams like Edinburgh or Sale would also be appealing to what has become a very stale competition over the last 10 years.

Free up those weekends in October for the re-arranged Six Nations, and also then playing the autumn games with battle-hardened home nations would be great too.

I hoped we could see a cup like that replace the old Anglo-Welsh cup.

That'd never happen in European rugby due to it bringing in money.

Crowds for European games on average are much better. When the Welsh regions were formed in 2003 David Moffett set a target average attendance of 8,000 which all 4 are currently below I believe. Similar in Scotland. I attend a fair few Edinburgh games these days being based up here, the odd bigger crowd for the 1872 cup and European games is a vital boost. Meanwhile the Prem lost an aggregate £44.1m last season. That with the Twickenham games providing bumper crowds to some as well.

A round robin tournament would see many sides not get a single European home game all season. Clubs could likely fold off the back of that.

Less games would mean smaller squads so there would be a saving there too. Maybe an opening home and away 2 legged round?

For the Falcons the crowds dropped by about 30 or 40% for Europe. I remember looking at Leicester games a few years ago and their crowds dropped about 10% for Europe compared to the league games so not sure that always applies.

You're right though that too much money is made by some unions off the European games and therefore unlikely to change from current format.

Just thought for this and next season that something has to give, and it is the easiest thing to alter.

Plus it would have been good to have the English players having a match together before playing New Zealand.

MichaelT wrote:
Less games would mean smaller squads so there would be a saving there too. Maybe an opening home and away 2 legged round?

For the Falcons the crowds dropped by about 30 or 40% for Europe. I remember looking at Leicester games a few years ago and their crowds dropped about 10% for Europe compared to the league games so not sure that always applies.

You're right though that too much money is made by some unions off the European games and therefore unlikely to change from current format.

Just thought for this and next season that something has to give, and it is the easiest thing to alter.

Plus it would have been good to have the English players having a match together before playing New Zealand.

Smaller squads without adjusting the wage cap would just aid wage inflation though. The fact that Sarries being sanctioned is rumoured to be having an immediate impact on offers players are getting for next season probably sums up how easily that balance can be knocked.

Falcons also had their playing budget cut quite dramatically after they finished top 4 so I'd argue some exacerbating circumstances there with them in the Champions Cup with a weakened squad. You are right it isn't a rule of thumb that crowds go up though, especially in the Challenge Cup.

Whisper it quietly but Tigers crowds have been a bit more erratic than usual for a few seasons. It's rarely mentioned as their average attendance is still so much better than most rivals (Bristol are coming up on the tracks though) but average attendance at Tigers has dropped for a few years. As Tigers have high numbers of season ticket holders who won't always attend I often feel that the 'official' attendance from tickets sold doesn't represent the numbers in the stands either.

Something will have to give but I expect it will be the PRC games being aligned with 6 Nations rearrangements if needed from the Prems perspective.

I really like the Champions Cup. The best games there really are international quality in my opinion. Leinster vs Sarries would have been a brilliant game. The challenge cup is a big drop off in quality and how teams use it though. A few years ago someone suggested having both finalist from the Challenge Cup qualify for the following Champions cup with a guaranteed seeding in tier 2 for the winner and tier 3 for runner-up. Something like that might make it a far more attractive tournament to some teams.

Just based on the core of the WC squads being rested for the Summer Matches (if they happen)! Including a few that only got limited gametime.

I would like to see a squad including these guys -

1.Genge, Moon, Obano,
2.Dunn, Thacker
3.H.Williams,Stuart
4.Launchbury, Isiekwe
5.Ewels, J.Hill
6.Wilson(c), Hill
7.Ludlam, B Curry
8.Earl, Dombrandt,

9.Spencer, Randall, Maunder,
10.Simmonds, Smith,

11.Nowell, Ibitoye
12.Devoto, Lozowski
13. Joseph, Dingwall, Marchant (not back from NZ)
14.Thorley, Cockanasinga
15. Mallinder, Malins

There isn't going to be a summer tour, so you are picking for the autumn internationals/final 6 Nations game at best and possibly 6 Nations 2021.  All the teams will therefore lose the opportunity to look at some younger/fringe players.  I don't think we have learned much since the world cup as Eddie has stuck with the known.  The only new player was Furbank  who didn't convince in limited opportunities and trying circumstances.  Playing Curry at 8 was a complete and utter waste of time.  There is a good (but unfortunate) possibility that Billy will not come back into international rugby and we wasted the chance to look at a potential long term replacement.  Likewise at scrum half we stuck with the old and tried rather than look at someone who can take England into the next world cup.

Perhaps Eddie is right that you just look at the next game and concentrate on that rather than looking 2 or 3 years ahead, but I think the jump between club rugby and international rugby is getting bigger and that you need to test players at international rugby to see if they can handle it and then give them opportunity to grow.  Throwing a scrumhalf into a world cup final isn't the way to go for me.

Perhaps Eddie is righ

Curry had an excellent tournament and Lawes was outstanding from blindside to be fair.

England's squad is young enough to not need lots of new players blooded after making the World Cup final. Scrum-half is the one position that particularly concerns me.

The forwards are excellent. Reserve tight head and a replacement for Kruis need work. Loosehead, hooker and the locks are fantastic. The back row doesn't concern me. Curry and Underhill are exceptional. Lawes is getting better with experience. Wilson is a very good international flanker. Ludlam has played well. Earl looked very strong in his bench appearances. Throw in Hill and Mercer who have been capped already at a young age.

If Watson and Nowell stay fit in the back three then fullback concerns me less. Watson is world class and adds so much balance on the right wing.

I have slight concerns at centre if Manu were injured. Farrell is a Lions 12 and world class though. Slade is a very good 13 who offers different tactical option to Manu or JJ. Joseph proved me wrong with regards to his fitness issues this 6 Nations. Marchant, Lawrence and Dingwall are brilliant talents to bring through.

I thought Lawes played well as a third lock not as a blindside. It was a case of us having three excellent locks and Eddie couldn't choose. Lawes needs to work on his tight game if he's going to replace Kruis in the line up though at 31 we should maybe looking at his replacement more than him being a long term option.

Joseph looked good as a third centre as he didn't really play as a full winger not as a full centre. Tactically it actually worked well for us as we could split the backs to playmaker, centre and wing each side when in phase play. Tough for a defence to read that. I think he's on his way out though. Marchant is the ready made replacement just waiting to take JJ's spot.

I think we have to assume now, with the Olympics likely to be postponed, that the summer tour will no longer go ahead.

Agree Sam that Marchant looks class.
A few seasons back he looked pretty poor defensively (or with the defensive combinations that Quins were playing at the time).
However last season he was exceptional. If he can continue in the same vein, and perhaps pick up a few trick while at the Blues then he is going to be a great asset to Quins and England.

Has anyone been following the super rugby (before postponement) - How has he been getting on?

Lawes is a seriously good player. We were at a stage when top flankers were at a minimum but we had 4 top notch locks.

Now however...we have actual flankers coming through who are genuinely top class.

So i dont expect to see the lock at flanker thing going on much longer.

Marchant was pretty good for a resurgent Blues. He was still settling in tbh but didnt let them down and looked bright in attack at times. Tricky to drop straight in and be a star but he was picked regularly at least.