Your best 23 in the world

With most sport being postponed it seemed like as a good a time as ever to start purely hypothetical and subjective discussion. What could go wrong on the internet.

Simple rules. Please post your own 23 if you're interested in the thread and everyone play nice.

1.Mikheil Nariashvili
2.German Kessler
3.Tadhg Furlong
4.Maro Itoje
5.Lood de Jager
6.Pieter-Steph du Toit
7.Ardie Savea
8.Kazuki Himeno

9.Faf de Klerk
10.Beaden Barrett

11.Semi Radrada
12.Owen Farrell
13.Tim Lafaele
14.Cheslin Kolbe
15.Liam Williams

16.Bongi Mbonambi
17.Steven Kitshoff
18.Kyle Sinckler
19.Eben Etzebeth
20.Tom Curry
21.Beka Gorgadze
22.Antoine Dupont
23.Romain Ntamack

I struggled at 5 where I think Lood de Jager and Brodie Retallick are the best in the world but Lood is injured and Brodie on sabbatical. In the end I went for LdJ who was outstanding in the World Cup.

About two dozen names came to mind in the back row. Siya Kolisi, Jake Polledri, Sam Underhill, Villiame Mata, Duane Vermeulen, Josh Navidi, Hamish Watson. There's some ridiculous talent about.

On the bench I've included the 6-2 split. Firstly as it was an integral part in the South Africa world cup final blitz, so I've included it almost on form I guess. Secondly, because I like it as a tactic in the physical modern game and having argued it's strengths throughout the 6 Nations I have planted my flag and will stubbornly die on this hill.

Farrell at 12? His form has been pretty average of late. Barrett struggled at the RWC though he was out of position and his kicking is not great even if he can be a joy to watch at times. Having said that I'd struggle to pick a 10 at the minute.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Farrell at 12? His form has been pretty average of late. Barrett struggled at the RWC though he was out of position and his kicking is not great even if he can be a joy to watch at times. Having said that I'd struggle to pick a 10 at the minute.

On his form in the 6N and the RWC, Ford has got to be in with a shout, behind a pack like that and with de Klerk's service he would be pretty good.

Very good call on Nariashvili. I can't think of anyone else that really stands out, and he would often get overlooked because he plays for Georgia. He dominated every one of his opponents at the world cup.

1.Mikheil Nariashvili
2.Dane Coles
3.Tadhg Furlong
4.Maro Itoje
5.Eben Etzebeth
6.Pieter-Steph du Toit
7.Ardie Savea
8.Duane Vermeulen

9.Aaron Smith
10.Beaden Barrett

11.Semi Radrada
12.Anton Liernert-Brown
13.Jonathan Davies
14.Cheslin Kolbe
15.Liam Williams

16.Jamie George
17.Steven Kitshoff
18.Frans Malhebe
19.James Ryan
20.Josh Navidi
21.Antoine Dupont
22.Romain Ntamack
23.Marika Koroibete

Navidi and Curry can cover the back-row, but I've gone for the former... Gone for Koroibete as he can play centre and wing. Locks and back-row were the most competitive. The ABs at 9 and 10 get the nod for me for the most consistency. I don't think Smith is the best in the world, he's probably 5th best, but has consistently shone playing for the All Blacks but who wouldn't. I've also put JD2 at 13 as he seems the most consistent. Tuilagi, Am, Ringrose could slot in.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Farrell at 12? His form has been pretty average of late. Barrett struggled at the RWC though he was out of position and his kicking is not great even if he can be a joy to watch at times. Having said that I'd struggle to pick a 10 at the minute.

On his form in the 6N and the RWC, Ford has got to be in with a shout, behind a pack like that and with de Klerk's service he would be pretty good.

True enough, but I'd only ever put Ford at 10 if Farrell was at 12.

mikey_dragon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Farrell at 12? His form has been pretty average of late. Barrett struggled at the RWC though he was out of position and his kicking is not great even if he can be a joy to watch at times. Having said that I'd struggle to pick a 10 at the minute.

On his form in the 6N and the RWC, Ford has got to be in with a shout, behind a pack like that and with de Klerk's service he would be pretty good.

True enough, but I'd only ever put Ford at 10 if Farrell was at 12.

Just out of interest why?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Farrell at 12? His form has been pretty average of late. Barrett struggled at the RWC though he was out of position and his kicking is not great even if he can be a joy to watch at times. Having said that I'd struggle to pick a 10 at the minute.

On his form in the 6N and the RWC, Ford has got to be in with a shout, behind a pack like that and with de Klerk's service he would be pretty good.

True enough, but I'd only ever put Ford at 10 if Farrell was at 12.

Just out of interest why?

For England he's looked vulnerable on most of the occasions Farrell hasn't been at 12. Faz seems to be the glue for the backline and is a good defender, legal or illegal. The England 10/12 combo is one of the best in the world but separately they are not as good.

I'd try and also find a place for Charles Ollivon with the form he's in, I had almost forgotten the France captain. It would likely be at 6 or 8, rather than 7.

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Farrell at 12? His form has been pretty average of late. Barrett struggled at the RWC though he was out of position and his kicking is not great even if he can be a joy to watch at times. Having said that I'd struggle to pick a 10 at the minute.

On his form in the 6N and the RWC, Ford has got to be in with a shout, behind a pack like that and with de Klerk's service he would be pretty good.

True enough, but I'd only ever put Ford at 10 if Farrell was at 12.

Just out of interest why?

For England he's looked vulnerable on most of the occasions Farrell hasn't been at 12. Faz seems to be the glue for the backline and is a good defender, legal or illegal. The England 10/12 combo is one of the best in the world but separately they are not as good.

Ford didn't hit the high notes in the world cup/pre world cup without Farrell at 12 but a Francis and an out of form Joseph midfield was all kinds of meh. Didn't really give him the ammunition. Previously he's done well for England without Farrell whereas Farrell has sometimes struggled without Ford. From memory when he did well on the Argentina tour Ford had Slade in the midfield instead which worked.

I think they both need a secondary playmaker in the backline with them. Farrell uses Goode heavily at Sarries and Ford benefitted from Eastmond and Bath but has struggled to link with any of the prospective 12s at Tigers though there are other issues there.

Not going to quibble with the picks so far except that with those forwards I'd love to see Finn Russell at 10; and although I rate Williams at 15, I'd rather see Stuart Hogg.

Surely Curry has to be in at 7? The standout in the world for me.

Is PSDT really the best 6 in the world? He played well for SA during the world cup but he's such a limited player, if we're placing so much emphasis on a single tournament then Furlong in the team is a little strange.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Curry has to be in at 7? The standout in the world for me.

No you're not biased at all.

mikey_dragon wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Curry has to be in at 7? The standout in the world for me.

No you're not biased at all.

I'd have him in over Savea. Savea is a phenomenal athlete but I like my 7s to be more combative over the ball than big Ardie. Then again I am a big Hamish Watson fan.

mikey_dragon wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Curry has to be in at 7? The standout in the world for me.

No you're not biased at all.

No im not...and generally fairly honest. Are you disagreeing that Curry has been one of the standout players and flankers this season?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Curry has to be in at 7? The standout in the world for me.

No you're not biased at all.

I'd have him in over Savea. Savea is a phenomenal athlete but I like my 7s to be more combative over the ball than big Ardie. Then again I am a big Hamish Watson fan.

Yes i forgot about Hamish...he's some player.

i dont think Savea should be the 7...

I think I would have Reinach in at 9, he offers something that no one else does at 9, extreme pace as well as a good pass and kicking game.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Curry has to be in at 7? The standout in the world for me.

No you're not biased at all.

No im not...and generally fairly honest. Are you disagreeing that Curry has been one of the standout players and flankers this season?

Wouldn’t disagree with that. 7 is a very competitive position in the NH though, and to say Curry is by far the best is inaccurate. I doubt any other 6N would take him in their team as each have two or three good options. Ardie is good at everything and of the SH is the stand out and most consistent, that’s why I selected him. I wouldn’t know who to select there from the NH.

mikey_dragon wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Surely Curry has to be in at 7? The standout in the world for me.

No you're not biased at all.

No im not...and generally fairly honest. Are you disagreeing that Curry has been one of the standout players and flankers this season?

Wouldn’t disagree with that. 7 is a very competitive position in the NH though, and to say Curry is by far the best is inaccurate. I doubt any other 6N would take him in their team as each have two or three good options. Ardie is good at everything and of the SH is the stand out and most consistent, that’s why I selected him. I wouldn’t know who to select there from the NH.

Openside is a position of strength but few dominate the tackle like Curry whilst also offering what he does at the breakdown. For my money he's one of the two best flankers in the world defensively alongside Pieter-Steph du Toit. Curry's attacking game has improved out of sight in the last 18 months but does still need to keep improving compared to others.

His ability to cover the back row makes the discussion of whether others countries would take him more difficult. Take the home nations:

- Ritchie and Watson are excellent but despite Haining's good form Curry would walk in at 8
- Similar with Wales during this 6 Nations. Faletau and Navidi were a long way from full fitness whilst I honestly thought Tipuric (a player I'm a huge fan of) didn't have his best 6 Nations
- Stander had a good tournament for Ireland but O'Mahony and van der Flier had less consistent impacts

Physicality in defence is such a huge part of the modern game that realistically I think Townsend, Farrell and Pivac would leap at the opportunity to pick Curry.

I would find it hard to overlook a New Zealand All Black as the first two choices for any position in this team. I'm not sure any player comes close to the two NZ scrum halves apart from Will Genia in his prime. Faf de Klerk is a neat player but not in their league. Perhaps the French 9s could challenge them but it's a bit too soon to say. I think the same is true at hooker and probably centre as well.

The only suggestions from Wales I think might be in with a chance would be Liam Williams, Justin Tipuric, and Toby Faletau. As with everything you probably go for the best 'well rounded' option. You want a mix of experience, natural ability, and versatility. If you wanted defensive players then Jonathan Davies would be a great option at 13 who can also be effective with the ball but if you want attack then players like Radrada and Vakatawa do things every game Davies could only dream about!

For England I think Curry, Mako Vunipola (not Billy, sorry), Joe Marler, Sickler, Genge, Itoje, and Tuilagi are all worth a mention. Owen Farrell as well in part because his competition isn't that great and he has bags of mostly good experience at the top level. George Ford is probably knocking on the door for selection in the wider 35 man squad as are Courtney Lawes and Underhill.

Scotland would be Hogg and Hamish Watson. No one else as far as I can see.

I would struggle to nominate an Irish player in all honesty. Sexton would have claimed the 10 position 4 years ago but not now. They are a team in transition and I think it shows. Stockdale, Larmour etc. are their danger men but not in the reckoning for me. Not sure James Ryan offers more than the English locks, and I'd pick the South Africans and Kiwis over both, with a spot for Nakarawa.

No one from Italy but Polledri might be one to watch.

France are a tough one. I'm unsure about the tight forwards but Ollivon is world class game after game and Alldritt isn't far behind. Dupont is surely right behind the two ABs at 9. I'm not sure I could recommend anyone else.

Perhaps there are some other players like a Georgian prop or a few Fijian outside backs who would make it as well but out of those mentioned they would all be hard pressed to dislodge an All Black in a world XV. Not the wingers, though, that was a clear point of weakness for them in the world cup.

'I would find it hard to overlook a New Zealand All Black as the first two choices for any position in this team. '
So the 15 fifteen is New Zealand followed by New Zealand 2nds. Cant say I'd agree with that. Depends very much on peoples criteria ie people who are fit, best possible form, current form, potential, how people like certain positions to play, how combos work or just picking your favourite guys. Any of those and I'd be struggling to currently pick more than 3 maybe 4 kiwis let alone 30.

guestalt_physicality wrote:I would find it hard to overlook a New Zealand All Black as the first two choices for any position in this team.

Seriously? Disagree im afraid.

Why? Is this because England beat New Zealand in the world cup?

Well it would help to set out your criteria of why you feel that youd pick a 15 of kiwis and a 2nd 15 of kiwis to start with. It's difficult to see how they could have the best 30 players in the world.

guestalt_physicality wrote:Why? Is this because England beat New Zealand in the world cup?

Not in the slightest....

The Ab's have been the bench mark as a team for such a long time.

But individually so many other teams have standout players. Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Aussie, South Africa (the Word Champions) have brilkiant players in their group.

Faf De klerk is better than the 2 kiwi scrum halves you state are first choice in any World XV....

Even Fiji, and others have players who are sublime and could make the best in the world at the moment.

Radradra the winger was outstanding for example.

I am actually going to do 2 teams - there are so many excellent players to choose from, and for me some are difficult to split. Not everyone will agree, but that's what these threads are about - a bit of fun debate. Neither of these teams is my number 1 or 2 - I simply have too many players to consider. I am not including any players who retired after the World Cup - sorry Kieran Read, David Pocock & Tendai Mtarawira!

Team A

1. Jonathan Kitshoff
2. Jamie George
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Maro Itoje
5. Lood De Jager
6. Pieter-Steph Du Toit
7. Michael Hooper
8. Gregory Aldritt
9. Antoine DuPont
10. Beauden Barrett
11. Johnny May
12. Damian De Allende
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Anthony Watson
15. Liam Williams

Team B

1. Mikheil Nariashvili
2. Malcolm Marx
3. Frans Malherbe
4. Courtney Lawes
5. James Ryan
6. Aaron Wainwright
7. Tom Curry
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Faf De Klerk
10. Handre Pollard
11. Makazole Mpimpi
12. Samu Kerevi
13. Anton Lienert-Brown
14. Marika Koroibete
15. Damian McKenzie

I'm liking both those sides, Bounce.

Hooper always comes to mind for me when I think about these sides. At his best he's an incredible flanker. His tackling and ruck work are excellent, then his link play is up there with Savea as the best in the world. His form has dropped a bit recently though. Perhaps miles on the clock catching up a bit. With Pocock retired Rennie will need to rethink the balance in that back row so I hope a new game plan sees the best of Hooper again.

The biggest omission I'd say is Kolbe not being picked with 4 wingers there. For me he's one of the very best players in the world let alone his position. Genuinely undefendable at times.

Cheers Carlos

I think Hooper's been genuinely unlucky to have been around during Australia's slump in form. He showed his worth when Pocock was shifted to keep Hooper in the starting XV. Almost guaranteed to pick up a yellow mind you!

I did agonise over whether to include Kolbe. I preferred the out and out speed of Koroibete but both have their merits - and Kolbe does have that X Factor.

At the RWC I thought that Wainwright was right up there with the best and a real find. Wales do have an embarrassment of riches in the back row. Also with Mapimpe, Kolbe and Kolisi grabbing the heaadlines, De Allende in my book was one of the very best throughout the tournament - hard-running and very direct. Underrated.

Wainwright is a good player. He's one who I think will benefit from Pivac's offloading game as he's better in attack than several flankers that Gatland's direct game plan favoured. If Faletau finds his best form then he will struggle to squeeze Navidi out the side. Time will tell.

The back row has so many brilliant players in it though. From nations that we see less of on TV all of Himeno, Gorgadze, Mata and Polledri would be pushing for starting shirts in most tier 1 sides.

The front row was the only position where I found selection relatively easy as I feel that Nariashvili, Kessler and Furlong are a step ahead of the competition in each position. Brilliant players in the tight and loose.

Honestly, Wainwright is a million miles away from being in the best 30 players in the world/best few in his position. There are at least 2 better flankers than him in Wales, either side, 6 or 7. Maybe in 3 or 4 years' time he will come good and be worthy of mention but Navidi and Moriarty are better blindsides and Ellis Jenkins and Tipuric better opensides.

My criteria was talent and ability, and versatility. After that came experience. Wainwright hasn't looked standout at all yet - definitely hasn't met the label Gatland gave him as Warburton's heir. That strikes me a bit like Alex Ferguson tipping Phil Jones to be Man United's best ever player - something he knows unlikely to happen, but veiled with some vanity about how his successor isn't going to live up to the job. If Ferguson/Gatland say they would have made something special out of Jones/Wainwright, and it doesn't happen, it doesn't take any gloss off their achievements at all.

For me, Kiwis can play any style of rugby and be just about the best player in the team. Even when they are over the hill, as we've seen in Ireland, England, and France for the last 15 years. South Africans do the grinding, meat and potatoes basics, competitive stuff better than the English, who play a similar style, but aren't quite as techincally talented as the All Blacks. Some players like Curry would cross over and do a job over in South Africa, but not too many would. The sport is played in a much more intense way from the earliest of age. Australians have great game intelligence and basic skills, similar to the Kiwis, but are in a generational rut in terms of talent, and perhaps more importantly, of players not maximising their potential due to structural issues within the Australian game (Quade Cooper could have been an all time great, for instance; Folau the same).

If you put quite a lot of the NH's best in a different environment, some of them would struggle to get professional contracts, and a lot of them would just be also-rans. It's always good looking back at who the media is hyping up for a Lions tour and then seeing how their career went in the subsequent years. Or even who gets selected for the Lions. We overrate the majority of our players in Europe, and the English are overrated in particular because of the strength of their media, even if they have a very good squad at the moment. Some of their tight forwards are up in pushing the limits of the game, particularly Genge and Sinckler, but I can't see any other than Tuilagi in the outside backs. Maybe Farrell for 10 as well because it's not been a position of global strength for a few years. Reiko Ioane is leagues ahead of Jonny May and Mackenzie the same compared to Daly. You should check out some of the talent not being picked by the All Blacks in New Zealand. Ben Lam would be a B&I Lion if he changed sides, no doubt about it, but not even mentioned by many. By the same extension I wonder would people rate Manu Tuilagi if he chose Samoa? All of this comes in to influencing perceptions, sadly.

One amendment I'd make would be Furlong for Ireland. He's been excellent for a while despite a quiet season so far, not helped by Ireland's poor form. Ireland have just seen a golden generation from the mid 00s through to the late 2010s so I just think it's bad timing for them that I can't see anyone else. BOD, POC, Kearney at his peak, there are lots who would have been worthy of a mention.

The only English guy I can think going down south for any length of time was symonds and tipped to become an all black. Came back and disappeared.
But its 1 irish guy and 29 kiwis now. The tides turning.

I think you must have misread 7 and a half.

Nope.

As a scots fan I would say a few in contention but few certs. A wee description with good and bad points

McInally - in great form and fast with good hands for a hooker. Watching him outpace Farrell last year was funny. Lineout throwing not the best at times

Watson - simply the most awkward player on the planet. Wriggles thru gaps he has no right to, makes a lot of turnovers, pacey. Many coaches would say he is simply too light

Finn - simply the best attacking 10 in the NH. He can do things no one else can. Even tho he has reduced his mistake count he still makes too many and the team needs someone else to take the kicks from hand.

Stuart Hogg. We all know how good he is. Nothing bad to say about him.

Darcy Graham - new kid on the block. Can't stop scoring. Fast, good feet, fearless, great tackler. Reminds me very much of Shane Williams. Too inexperienced yet perhaps

The real contenders for a world 15 tho would be Hoggy and Finn

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope.

Ok, I was being polite. You've misunderstood, perhaps deliberately, I don't know.

You've moved back to 30 kiwis again.

At times like this, life's too short to troll, surely. Grow up, for everyone's sake. It's been genuinely uplifting to read this site the last few weeks. Don't go and ruin what has been a great communal spirit out of boredom and spite.

Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

Isolation falling in the midst of blood orange season has really frustrated me. In scheme of so many more important matters it's completely irrelevant I know but Tarocco blood oranges are coming into their prime just now and they really do make the most divine marmalade.

They’re like cat nip.

The point is...theres some strong teams a the tp..yes...but around the world theres some fantastic players from all over the world, who are all playing top level rugby in the big leagues.

Imagine picking a team from the current "tier two " nations...and i bet you'd get a shock how strong it is!

Should really just make a list of your favourite players, best lists are simply too subjective

Old Man wrote:Should really just make a list of your favourite players, best lists are simply too subjective

True. Could break it down into favourite players from tier 1 teams, then tier 2 teams.

Top tier 1 team v Top Tier 2 team...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Top tier 1 team v Top Tier 2 team...

Taking tier 1 as the top 8 sides - SA, NZ, England, Ireland, France, Wales, Oz, Scotland
Tier 2 as the next 8 - Japan, Argentina, Fiji, Georgia, Tonga, Italy, Samoa, USA

1.Nariashvili 2.Horie 3.Ji-Won Koo 4.Petti 5.Nakarawa 6.Gorgadze 7.Matera 8.Himeno
9.Nagare 10.Sanchez 11.Radrada 12.Lafaele 13.Karachava (c) 14.Fukuoka 15.Cordero

16.Montoya 17.Chapparo 18.Gigashvili 19.Lavanini 20.Polledri 21.Mata 22.Takalua 23.Tamura

Honourable mention to German Kessler who would be hooker but Uruguay are currently 17th in the rankings.

Chapparo or Gogichashvili for the bench loosehead spot was very close. The young Georgian is on course to be the best loosehead in the world.

1.Kitshoff 2.Mbonambi 3.Furlong 4.Itoje 5.Lood de Jager 6.P-S du Toit 7.Savea (c) 8.Vermeulen
9.Faf de Klerk 10.Barrett 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Goodhue 14.Kolbe 15.Williams

16.George 17.Vunipola 18.Sinckler 19.Etzebeth 20.Curry 21.Alldritt 22.Dupont 23.Ntamack

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

I'll never understand why posters who end up in roundabout one-to-one arguments don't just private message each other. Surely it'd be easier to whine at one another if you didn't need to sift through messages from other posters who can discuss rugby without their blood pressure going through the roof.

I would ask this question myself but it seems a % of the forum is only here for those 'arguments'! I would usually ignore the trolls but as another genuine poster seemed to follow their lead it was worth clarifying. It's a shame at even a time like this but there we go.

Sorry carlos but I think silly things like 'I would find it hard to overlook a New Zealand All Black as the first two choices for any position in this team.' Deserve scorn.

Perhaps you'd be better off finding something better to do than go online if the only thing you can offer is scorn in a time of national crisis and global pandemic. Just a thought for you...