Your best 23 in the world

First topic message reminder :

With most sport being postponed it seemed like as a good a time as ever to start purely hypothetical and subjective discussion. What could go wrong on the internet.

Simple rules. Please post your own 23 if you're interested in the thread and everyone play nice.

1.Mikheil Nariashvili
2.German Kessler
3.Tadhg Furlong
4.Maro Itoje
5.Lood de Jager
6.Pieter-Steph du Toit
7.Ardie Savea
8.Kazuki Himeno

9.Faf de Klerk
10.Beaden Barrett

11.Semi Radrada
12.Owen Farrell
13.Tim Lafaele
14.Cheslin Kolbe
15.Liam Williams

16.Bongi Mbonambi
17.Steven Kitshoff
18.Kyle Sinckler
19.Eben Etzebeth
20.Tom Curry
21.Beka Gorgadze
22.Antoine Dupont
23.Romain Ntamack

I struggled at 5 where I think Lood de Jager and Brodie Retallick are the best in the world but Lood is injured and Brodie on sabbatical. In the end I went for LdJ who was outstanding in the World Cup.

About two dozen names came to mind in the back row. Siya Kolisi, Jake Polledri, Sam Underhill, Villiame Mata, Duane Vermeulen, Josh Navidi, Hamish Watson. There's some ridiculous talent about.

On the bench I've included the 6-2 split. Firstly as it was an integral part in the South Africa world cup final blitz, so I've included it almost on form I guess. Secondly, because I like it as a tactic in the physical modern game and having argued it's strengths throughout the 6 Nations I have planted my flag and will stubbornly die on this hill.

Maybe we should all sit quietly in silence and just milk it over. Nah.

king_carlos wrote:I'll never understand why posters who end up in roundabout one-to-one arguments don't just private message each other. Surely it'd be easier to whine at one another if you didn't need to sift through messages from other posters who can discuss rugby without their blood pressure going through the roof.

I'm glad this aged well.

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

What an odd opinion to hold.

It would be interesting to see you post a team at which point you'll realise that it would not be dominated by ABs at all any more.

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

Yes, so much better than the NH that England smashed them back to New Zealand.

Mate, give it a rest...you're being rediculous.

They dominated for an awfully long time, but they arent the best team at the moment...other teams have, or are catching them.

Just one example...you list Scrum halves where they are so far ahead??
Faf and Anotoine du Pont make that arguement rediculous.

Radradra, Johnny May, Antony Watson is as good as any All Black Winger currently, Hogg is as good as any AB full back...just a few examples.

We can go on...

So how about letting this one go now.

Odd? Really? My team would be dominated by All Blacks. If you do it in 2 years time it will be the same. Same again in 5 years time, as it would have been 5 years ago. That is the very obvious point I'm making about the longevity of their dominance and how they're unique in world sport in being significantly better than any other location. I listed players who would be worthy of mention but most of those are only passing mentions. It would be dominated by All Blacks and then Fijians and South Africans would take most of the other places.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

Yes, so much better than the NH that England smashed them back to New Zealand.

Mate, give it a rest...you're being rediculous.

They dominated for an awfully long time, but they arent the best team at the moment...other teams have, or are catching them.

Just one example...you list Scrum halves where they are so far ahead??
Faf and Anotoine du Pont make that arguement rediculous.

Radradra, Johnny May, Antony Watson is as good as any All Black Winger currently, Hogg is as good as any AB full back...just a few examples.

We can go on...

So how about letting this one go now.

You're using a one off game against years of experience. Anyone can win a one off game. As long as people keep replying trying to 'shut up' an opinion I don't really think it needs to be 'let go'. You shouldn't take it personally that the only English players who would be considered the best in the world in their position are props. At times like this...I mean it beggars belief. There are so many more important things to get care about. I hope you're well and not personally suffering with grief however it does't excuse this shouting down.

You'll be able to post a team and then realise how absurd you're being.

Whitelock and Retallick were the second row combo a few years ago but have individually been usurped by De Jager and Itoje, hard to make a case for anyone else. Curry and PSDT have performed far better than any AB in the last 12 months or so, Read isn't the player he was, the front row wouldn't have a single AB, DuPont is head and shoulders above any other 9, the list goes on.

On current form I don't think i'd be picking anyone over Hamish Watson at 7 either.

guestalt_physicality wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

Yes, so much better than the NH that England smashed them back to New Zealand.

Mate, give it a rest...you're being rediculous.

They dominated for an awfully long time, but they arent the best team at the moment...other teams have, or are catching them.

Just one example...you list Scrum halves where they are so far ahead??
Faf and Anotoine du Pont make that arguement rediculous.

Radradra, Johnny May, Antony Watson is as good as any All Black Winger currently, Hogg is as good as any AB full back...just a few examples.

We can go on...

So how about letting this one go now.

You're using a one off game against years of experience. Anyone can win a one off game. As long as people keep replying trying to 'shut up' an opinion I don't really think it needs to be 'let go'. You shouldn't take it personally that the only English players who would be considered the best in the world in their position are props. At times like this...I mean it beggars belief. There are so many more important things to get care about. I hope you're well and not personally suffering with grief however it does't excuse this shouting down.

It's a sports forum, if you can't handle it then don't log on.

guestalt_physicality wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

Yes, so much better than the NH that England smashed them back to New Zealand.

Mate, give it a rest...you're being rediculous.

They dominated for an awfully long time, but they arent the best team at the moment...other teams have, or are catching them.

Just one example...you list Scrum halves where they are so far ahead??
Faf and Anotoine du Pont make that arguement rediculous.

Radradra, Johnny May, Antony Watson is as good as any All Black Winger currently, Hogg is as good as any AB full back...just a few examples.

We can go on...

So how about letting this one go now.

You're using a one off game against years of experience. Anyone can win a one off game. As long as people keep replying trying to 'shut up' an opinion I don't really think it needs to be 'let go'. You shouldn't take it personally that the only English players who would be considered the best in the world in their position are props. At times like this...I mean it beggars belief. There are so many more important things to get care about. I hope you're well and not personally suffering with grief however it does't excuse this shouting down.

But it was a pretty good one off game....and showed that maybe they're not heads and tails above the NH...dont forget Ireland beat them twice aswell...

Im merely mentioned a few English players, but i could easily list Irish, Scottish, Welsh, hell even a couple of Georgian players (the props etc) , who at present you could argue against a Kiwi.

Noone is trying to "SHUT UP" an opinion...its simply that your opinion in this case is absurd...and you're clearly looking for a bite....which you have got..

Soul Requiem wrote:You'll be able to post a team and then realise how absurd you're being.

Whitelock and Retallick were the second row combo a few years ago but have individually been usurped by De Jager and Itoje, hard to make a case for anyone else. Curry and PSDT have performed far better than any AB in the last 12 months or so, Read isn't the player he was, the front row wouldn't have a single AB, DuPont is head and shoulders above any other 9, the list goes on.

On current form I don't think i'd be picking anyone over Hamish Watson at 7 either.

Ok without much thought this is my team. Itoje wouldn't make it. He's not lived up to this potential yet by any means. Your 'definites' are just opinions at the end of the day and my point - which I'm amazed I have to make on a rugby forum - is that because domestic NZ rugby is so much better than anywhere else apart from SA, the gut reaction shouldn't be to scan over the current All Black and move on to whoever's playing in the 6Ns like somefans and media do. The likelihood is that there is a world class player for NZ waiting in the wings. Because it's simple, our rugby just isn't as good up here. England had to play the game of their lives to beat a poorly coached All Blacks team who had overheated the week before. You could just as easily use the game from 2018 to see NZ's quality AND versatility, with players like Barrett and McKenzie showing their class in very pro-English conditions. Dupont is a good little player but so far has done nothing of note at the highest level. Aaron Smith and Genia redefined the scrum half role and TJ Peranara has been nipping on Smith's heels for years. They're just not comparable in my opinion but then I'm not going to call you absurd for thinking what you think.

I'm also not absurd at all and I think using this kind of tone really does a disservice to what has been an excellent few weeks on this website and makes me disappointed to see the bitterness is still in some peoples' hearts when engaging online.

What's important to remember is form - i.e. the last 12 months - is temporary, class is permanent. I'm not picking a 'hot list'. I've said what my criteria are.

1. Mako Vunipola
2. Dane Coles
3. Tadgh Furlong
4. Retallick
5. de Jager
6. Ardie Savea
7. Michael Hooper
8. Faletau

9. Aaron Smith
10. Handre Pollard
11. Rieko Ioane
12. Samu Kerevi
13. Jack Goodhue
14. Koroibete
15. Damien Mckenzie

16. Codie Taylor
17. Ellis Genge
18. Kyle Sinckler
19. Nakarawa
20. PSDT
21. TJ Peranara
22. Beauden Barrett
23. Cheslin Kolbe

Other players like Folau would make it but they've retired. I'm sure I've forgotten quite a few players as it's just a spur of the moment thing. I didn't include some Fijians or Georgians as despite them being very good at what they do I don't think they have the versatility or experience which was a key part of my criteria. But that's also a reason why I left quite a few NZ prospects out where in 2-3 years time I'd expect they'll be world beaters based on the talent they show in Super Rugby but because of their suspect coaching under Hansen over the last world cup cycle, with too many players dropped early, some too late, and too much focus on running rugby which cost them, a few players don't make it when I'd probably like to pick them based on talent and versatility.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

Yes, so much better than the NH that England smashed them back to New Zealand.

Mate, give it a rest...you're being rediculous.

They dominated for an awfully long time, but they arent the best team at the moment...other teams have, or are catching them.

Just one example...you list Scrum halves where they are so far ahead??
Faf and Anotoine du Pont make that arguement rediculous.

Radradra, Johnny May, Antony Watson is as good as any All Black Winger currently, Hogg is as good as any AB full back...just a few examples.

We can go on...

So how about letting this one go now.

You're using a one off game against years of experience. Anyone can win a one off game. As long as people keep replying trying to 'shut up' an opinion I don't really think it needs to be 'let go'. You shouldn't take it personally that the only English players who would be considered the best in the world in their position are props. At times like this...I mean it beggars belief. There are so many more important things to get care about. I hope you're well and not personally suffering with grief however it does't excuse this shouting down.

But it was a pretty good one off game....and showed that maybe they're not heads and tails above the NH...dont forget Ireland beat them twice aswell...

Im merely mentioned a few English players, but i could easily list Irish, Scottish, Welsh, hell even a couple of Georgian players (the props etc) , who at present you could argue against a Kiwi.

Noone is trying to "SHUT UP" an opinion...its simply that your opinion in this case is absurd...and you're clearly looking for a bite....which you have got..

You're reading intentions that just aren't there. I'm not looking for a 'bite'. It's honestly my opinion that NZ rugby is head and shoulders above the rest of the world. That's why we pay big money for their coaches and even their rejected players like T'eo, Parkes, Shields, Maitland etc. The South Africans are the second best team in the world and Australians have the talent but the structure is disappearing. The Islanders are also insanely gifted players as well but not the most well rounded and although are wonderfully 'natural' talents can be beaten through tactical coaching like we saw in Japan. NH rugby is very much second best. It's like comparing European football to South American football and trying to argue that Raheem Sterling is better than Neymar. Johnny May wouldn't even come close to a cap if he played in NZ. Their standards are too high. But he was able to grow and gain experience at the top level because of his asset - pace. And he suits the way England and NH rugby is. Which isn't as highly skilled, more about 'percentage play' as they say in football, box kicking, waiting for a mistake, and then finishing an overlap. And so now, because he's a mainstay for England, some people think he would be in the reckoning. For me, his experience and improvement doesn't counteract the talent gap. The NH players who do come close in talent, as well as experience and versatility, are the ones I mentioned earlier. But very few are 'better' than their NZ or SA opponents. Even an all time great like BOD played at a time when there was a better 13 in NZ: Conrad Smith.

No NH team could beat Ireland like NZ did in Japan. Even when England trash Ireland it's still more 'meat and potatoes, up the middle' style rugby. And that's with one of if not the best coach in the world, earning huge money, pulling the strings and getting English players to play that way. There's really not that much coaching that goes on for the All Blacks, it's mostly a continuation of their domestic game. England (and Ireland, Wales etc) have to pay huge money to bridge that gap by bringing in top SH coaching talent, who then spends years getting systems in place and players up to speed. Eddie and Gatland are probably the two best international coaches in the game. Take them both away and I think the picture becomes clearer about talent.

I don't know why that idea is so controversial. I would implore everyone to travel more. Or more importantly, get involved with local grassroots rugby club, especially if you have kids who play, and get involved in coaching if you can. Then go and see how it's done 'down there' and the skills their players need to have.

Soul Requiem wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

Yes, so much better than the NH that England smashed them back to New Zealand.

Mate, give it a rest...you're being rediculous.

They dominated for an awfully long time, but they arent the best team at the moment...other teams have, or are catching them.

Just one example...you list Scrum halves where they are so far ahead??
Faf and Anotoine du Pont make that arguement rediculous.

Radradra, Johnny May, Antony Watson is as good as any All Black Winger currently, Hogg is as good as any AB full back...just a few examples.

We can go on...

So how about letting this one go now.

You're using a one off game against years of experience. Anyone can win a one off game. As long as people keep replying trying to 'shut up' an opinion I don't really think it needs to be 'let go'. You shouldn't take it personally that the only English players who would be considered the best in the world in their position are props. At times like this...I mean it beggars belief. There are so many more important things to get care about. I hope you're well and not personally suffering with grief however it does't excuse this shouting down.

It's a sports forum, if you can't handle it then don't log on.

I don't think anyone who's happy and sane can 'handle' trolling to be honest. If you take pride in being 'tough enough' to dish it out, 'good' for you.

Soul Requiem wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

Yes, so much better than the NH that England smashed them back to New Zealand.

Mate, give it a rest...you're being rediculous.

They dominated for an awfully long time, but they arent the best team at the moment...other teams have, or are catching them.

Just one example...you list Scrum halves where they are so far ahead??
Faf and Anotoine du Pont make that arguement rediculous.

Radradra, Johnny May, Antony Watson is as good as any All Black Winger currently, Hogg is as good as any AB full back...just a few examples.

We can go on...

So how about letting this one go now.

You're using a one off game against years of experience. Anyone can win a one off game. As long as people keep replying trying to 'shut up' an opinion I don't really think it needs to be 'let go'. You shouldn't take it personally that the only English players who would be considered the best in the world in their position are props. At times like this...I mean it beggars belief. There are so many more important things to get care about. I hope you're well and not personally suffering with grief however it does't excuse this shouting down.

It's a sports forum, if you can't handle it then don't log on.

Biggest understatement since Joe Exotic admitted he did a lot of meth.

guestalt_physicality wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not trolling other than pointing out thinking the best 2 teams in the world are all kiwis is frankly a little silly.. Or was that just you fishing yourself.

It's not silly at all. They're head and shoulders above the NH. The only ones who compete in talent are Pacific Islanders but many of them are also born and raised in NZ, and South Africa. That's why the last 4 WC winners come from those 2 countries in spite of NH money often taking some of their best coaches away from them. That's why I said what I said while also mentioning the NH players who might be worthy of a mention but really it would be dominated by NZers. You are 100% trolling because I didn't pick a team but you're pretending I did.

Yes, so much better than the NH that England smashed them back to New Zealand.

Mate, give it a rest...you're being rediculous.

They dominated for an awfully long time, but they arent the best team at the moment...other teams have, or are catching them.

Just one example...you list Scrum halves where they are so far ahead??
Faf and Anotoine du Pont make that arguement rediculous.

Radradra, Johnny May, Antony Watson is as good as any All Black Winger currently, Hogg is as good as any AB full back...just a few examples.

We can go on...

So how about letting this one go now.

You're using a one off game against years of experience. Anyone can win a one off game. As long as people keep replying trying to 'shut up' an opinion I don't really think it needs to be 'let go'. You shouldn't take it personally that the only English players who would be considered the best in the world in their position are props. At times like this...I mean it beggars belief. There are so many more important things to get care about. I hope you're well and not personally suffering with grief however it does't excuse this shouting down.

It's a sports forum, if you can't handle it then don't log on.

I don't think anyone who's happy and sane can 'handle' trolling to be honest. If you take pride in being 'tough enough' to dish it out, 'good' for you.

I'd say that anyone who is happy and sane ignores supposed trolling instead of over reacting to being asked to justify an opinion.

Did you ask for justification? No, you trolled and called it absurd. There's no 'over reaction here'. As a licensed therapist, believe me - your gaslighting doesn't work. It's just pathetic that you feel the need to troll at a time when the forum was going so well.

I called it absurd

If you want the credit, you also called my opinion absurd, but I'm not sure you're trolling me (are you?) unlike the other 2 characters who have previous form for it.

No, i wasnt trolling, i was simply challenging your opinion, which in my opinion is ....absurd.

You think my opinions are absurd...so everyone is happy...

Last word on this particular discussion but disagreeing with the viewpoint that the best 23 and wider 30 players would all be kiwis isnt trolling. Indeed eventually you've agreed with our point guestalt.

No, from the first word you misunderstood - or rather misrepresented. You seem to do it often. Pathetic.

'I would find it hard to overlook a New Zealand All Black as the first two choices for any position in this team. '

Yes. It is hard.