The Covid-19 serious chat thread

[RDW]

First topic message reminder :

A thread set up to house the more serious chat relating to the global pandemic.

Nothing has changed in what we expect from discussions on here though:

- Please treat each other with respect
- Avoid hyperbole and fake news
- This thread shouldn't be used for a political soapbox, but political discussion will likely happen. See point 1!

A reminder that we have a community thread here for people to vent, look for help and all round support each other. https://www.606v2.com/t69506-the-covid-19-community-thread#3896653

[hampo17]

So England have had things relaxed considerably although part of me thinks this is off the back of the Police saying they’re struggling to cope with the sheer number of people who are congregating in local parks.

Lockdown hasn’t changed in Wales, and the first minister has put a video on social media this evening warning that fines will still be in place for unnecessary travel and that people will be turned back by the police. I have a funny feeling that they’ll be busy up Snowdonia this week.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Everyone who can, is being encouraged to go back to work from today, IF, they can get there without using public transport, once there they are supposed to observe social distancing etc. Having got people back to work, the government are starting to draw up rules on how they should do it safely. Errmmmm, should it not be, we have drawn up a set of rules and you can go back to work as long as you obey them.

It shows how out of touch they are with reality that they think people can go to work in London and other big cities and not use public transport, have they seen the tubes of a morning and the trains. The majority of workers have to use public transport to get into the work centres, there are not enough, car/m.bike/pushbike parking places to allow 10% to travel that way.

[Samo]

They’re fed up paying the furloughed staff, thats all it is.

[tigertattie]

They’re fed up paying the furloughed staff, thats all it is.

It's that or they are being very clever and letting Darwin's survival of the fittest (smartest) run its course.

In the last couple of weeks, folk have just started to ignore the guidelines and maybe the government have thought "Sod it, let them kill themselves"

I've seen at least 3 of the neighbours in my area have landscapers in. New patios being laid. Someone had a new lawn laid. These are not "essential works". I've seen the local fitness enthusiast meeting up with his fellow fitness enthusiast to go for a jog together (side by side along the pavement). Some families have had the grandkids round. Many kids are out playing together. My Personal favourite is the ever increasing way a street can get their 5 mins of fame by "clapping for carers" or "Saluting the veterans" in some unique and cheesy way which often disregards social distancing but it's deemed acceptable because it's for a worthy cause!

Sure Bo Jo and his cohorts are confusing the public and being basically incompetent, but when you leave matches lying around, you still need a muppet to pick them up and play with them!

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I love this, typical Johnson lies:

Mr Johnson said he had consulted "across the political spectrum, across all four nations of the UK" and that his plan was a "a general consensus on what we could do".

Sir Keir said Mr Johnson's speech raised "as many questions as it answers".

Labour's shadow business secretary Ed Miliband and shadow employment rights minister Andy McDonald said they were "deeply concerned" about the recommendation that those people unable to work from home should go back to work.

In a letter to Business Secretary Alok Sharma, they said urging staff to return to work with 12 hours' notice and no guidance on how they could stay safe was "irresponsible and wrong".

The leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have refused to adopt England's new message of "stay alert, control the virus, save lives".

Wales' health minister said there had not been a "four-nations agreement" on the new "stay alert" message and that the advice to "stay at home" in Wales was unchanged.

Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said there should be a "simpler" message and stressed the "stay at home" slogan would continue to apply in Scotland.

The Northern Ireland Executive said it would "consider its plan for a phased, strategic approach to recovery" at a meeting on Monday, with politicians there emphasising the "stay at home" message ahead of Mr Johnson's address on Monday.

Thats Johnson's/Trump's way of getting consensus, I have told them what I think and what I am doing, therefore we have consensus.

[rodders]

Well how are people getting on with the next phase, which might start Today or Wednesday depending on which one of Boris or Raab read their auto cue wrong.

R might = 0.5 or it might be 0.9 but lets not get too bogged down in details, as long as Bojo say's it is safe everything should be fine, he is following the science after all.

Maybe we can get an advance loan on that 350 million brexit dividend in time for the next peak, then we can procure goggles that don't fall off and a tracing app that works.

[lostinwales]

Keeping things serious.

I have just found out that a former work colleague (and father of 4) has succumbed to the virus. An old friend lost his mother to it and someone we work with has lost his brother to it.

Immediate family all OK (no 'olds' left to be fair) although a nephew had it and recovered (not tested, but classic symptoms including loss of taste and smell)

It's all a bit crap really

[123456789.]

Keeping things serious.

I have just found out that a former work colleague (and father of 4) has succumbed to the virus. An old friend lost his mother to it and someone we work with has lost his brother to it.

Immediate family all OK (no 'olds' left to be fair) although a nephew had it and recovered (not tested, but classic symptoms including loss of taste and smell)

It's all a bit crap really

That’s horrendous I know of a few people that have had it but none so bad they’ve had to go to hospital. One of them was definitely in the at risk category having a heart condition and being close to 60. Even that sharpens the focus somewhat when you see people obviously breaking social distancing.

[123456789.]

https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/07/uk-jordan-are-countries-world-not-health-checks-airports-12669125/

[tigertattie]

I've had cousins have it, two hospitalised but all recovered.

My mind was sharpend last night on the news where the Beeb interviewed a couple following BoJo's announcement. The wife was dearly missing the grandkids but said what's another month or two if it means folk can spend years in the future together. The husband was nearly in tears when he said he was worried he'd catch it having been fighting 5 versions of cancer.

How folk can just selfishly wander around B&Q looking for fence paint as they are bored, or cyclists thinking its ok to ride along pavements right by you is beyond me!

[123456789.]

My pet hate is when people say they had to get to see people because of how difficult and stressful lockdown is, as though they are unique in not enjoying this experience.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I must be unique as although I cannot say I am enjoying the experience, it has not been that bad. My better half of 40+ years standing and I have if possible grown closer together and have managed to hardly get on each others nerves at all.

The lack of sport, in particular rugby has been a disappointment and not being able to go out when and where we want is a pit painful.

We have 90 acres of lake and about three times that of Park Trust land on our doorstep, so we have been able to get out and enjoy a good walk, last week was gorgeous here.

In all for us, the positives out weigh the negatives, but i can understand how it would be utter hell couped up in a high rise or city centre. We are just lucky and a bit fortunate I suppose.

All good practice for my up and coming full retirement.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

and to make things more muddled..........

When, there is no date set, 14 day quarantine are started on people coming into the country, not only will people coming in from Ireland be exempt, but France also. Ireland with it's very low infection rate I can understand, but France with their rate similar to ours, no way.

The deal is reciprocal, so no checks or quarantine on us either.

What is to stop anyone from anywhere else coming through Ireland or France to avoid the quarantine, no border checks in mainland Europe.

[123456789.]

Boris Johnson spent months campaigning to stop freedom of movement from France - now the French people might be carrying a deadly virus he wants to relax restrictions for them. Ireland I understand as we do share a border with Ireland (a tricky concept for around 52% of the country admittedly).

I see now a lot of the Boris brigade have moved on from trying to defend the specifics of the government to simply saying now is not the time for recriminations or finger pointing. It does make you wonder if there had been social media in 1940 if the same people would be saying that Neville Chamberlain was not perfect but this is a WORLD war not just a British one, let's leave it until after the War to start recriminations. Criticising Neville is stupid, I don't think you'd be doing any better than Neville. It's far better to get behind Neville and let him do the job. Whatever you think of Neville, you cannot deny that Neville is doing his very best and that's all that we can ask of Neville in a very serious situation like this. I know it sounded like Neville said "peace in our time" shortly before the war began and that might make you think that Neville was thoroughly unprepared for a world war but could anyone, ever, anywhere have foreseen Germany attacking Poland, that's not what Neville meant anyway, what he meant was peas for our time and that is true we have peas. We should be grateful for that, no other leader would have got us peas, only Neville. It's no wonder people don't trust journalists when they keep saying he said 'peace' when he clearly said 'peas'.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Peas pudding, not fit for any time, certainly not mine.

[lostinwales]

Given that Boris's speech was recorded a day or two earlier (maybe even Thursday?) you would have thought that at some point in the intermediate time someone would have watched it and thought ' hang on this is a confusing load of bollix'. But, no. Instead his hand picked lemmings all tweet about how clear and concise he was and the rest of the country scratches its head.

No warning on opening up businesses then 3 days warning. Schools opening or are they? Only travel on public transport if you have to but wear a mask. Where do you get the masks from?

It really, really feels like they have lost the plot altogether.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Lost, to lose it they have to have had in the first place. They clearly didn't.

[navyblueshorts]

I think this says a lot:

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/4t87efrvgb/Results%20for%20Coronavirus%20Tracker%20GB%20-%20Wave%206_OMI220%20-%2017.4.2020_political%20(006)%20(003).pdf

See page 3 of the 4. Basically, what you think about UKG on this is based on your 2019 UK GE voting preference. People commenting objectively on this? Pull the other one.

Given that Lab / LD voters are split with 60% of LD voters thinking the government has done well, while 90% of Tory voters think the government are doing well, what exactly have you proven here?

Other than the fact the Brexit vote still thinks the sun shines out of Johnsons fat arse

Who gives a **** about the LDs? I was referring to Labour (i.e. left) and Tory (i.e. right) voters.

See it's still an echo chamber here. Go look up 'confirmation bias'. Enjoy; I'm out.

[JuliusHMarx]

It's only an echo chamber when people opt out.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Am I missing something with this app experiment being trialed on the IoW? Haven't the South Koreans and Germans already got a tried and very successfully tested system? Why have we not taken theirs and adapted/translated it for our own use?

[MrInvisible]

Some of this has been covered before e.g. by Numbers, but really think its worth reiterating the comparisons with other countries, and learning from their best practice. New Zealand, Portugal and Republic of Ireland (given its proximity to UK) are also examples that have done well given their circumstances.

South Korea: Population: 51 million, 2 and half hours flight from China and saw its first cases on 20th January. Covid-19 deaths to date: 240. Aggressive testing regime from word go.

Taiwan: Population: 24 million and densely populated. 80 miles from Chinese mainland and gets over 2 and half million visitors from China every year. Covid-19 deaths: 6. Made early use of contact tracing and quarantining.

Singapore: Population: 5 million, very densely populated. 4 and half hours by flight from China. Covid-19 deaths to date: 20. Flight restrictions from January and comprehensive contact tracing system.

Greece: Population: 11 million. Shares sea border with Italy and has high number of overseas tourists. Health and other infrastructure affected by years of austerity. Covid-19 deaths to date: 150. Lockdown implemented decisively and early.

UK: Population: 63 million, separated from neighbouring countries by English Channel and a 2-3 week head start over France, Spain and Italy to prepare for pandemic, Covid-19 deaths, over 30,000 and still rising fast. Failed to properly implement any of the above successful strategies used by other countries.

[123456789.]

Some of this has been covered before e.g. by Numbers, but really think its worth reiterating the comparisons with other countries, and learning from their best practice.  New Zealand, Portugal and Republic of Ireland (given its proximity to UK) are also examples that have done well given their circumstances.

South Korea: Population: 51 million, 2 and half hours flight from China and saw its first cases on 20th January. Covid-19 deaths to date: 240. Aggressive testing regime from word go.

Taiwan: Population: 24 million and densely populated. 80 miles from Chinese mainland and gets over 2 and half million visitors from China every year. Covid-19 deaths: 6. Made early use of contact tracing and quarantining.

Singapore: Population: 5 million, very densely populated. 4 and half hours by flight from China. Covid-19 deaths to date: 20. Flight restrictions from January and comprehensive contact tracing system.

Greece: Population: 11 million. Shares sea border with Italy and has high number of overseas tourists. Health and other infrastructure affected by years of austerity. Covid-19 deaths to date: 150. Lockdown implemented decisively and early.

UK: Population: 63 million, separated from neighbouring countries by English Channel and a 2-3 week head start over France, Spain and Italy to prepare for pandemic, Covid-19 deaths, over 30,000 and still rising fast. Failed to properly implement any of the above successful strategies used by other countries.

]


I think you've managed to do it far better than I have. Perhaps it's become an echo chamber on here as Navy suggested and perhaps to the detriment of the discussion. It would be a shame if Soul and Navy stopped commenting as it will become a far more boring place. However I don't think there's been any response to the echoes that has remotely dispelled them. Just regular assertions that we are biased and blinkered. I am biased and I am blinkered, as all people are, but there's been no coherent argument given that the government has been effective. Ultimately it might be confirmation bias in effect here, but at no point has this discussion teetered over into personal abuse, merely people saying what they believe.

[tigertattie]

I must be unique as although I cannot say I am enjoying the experience, it has not been that bad. My better half of 40+ years standing and I have if possible grown closer together and have managed to hardly get on each others nerves at all.

The lack of sport, in particular rugby has been a disappointment and not being able to go out when and where we want is a pit painful.

We have 90 acres of lake and about three times that of Park Trust land on our doorstep, so we have been able to get out and enjoy a good walk, last week was gorgeous here.

In all for us, the positives out weigh the negatives, but i can understand how it would be utter hell couped up in a high rise or city centre. We are just lucky and a bit fortunate I suppose.

All good practice for my up and coming full retirement.

That’s because you'll both be sensible individuals with a strong base for your relationship. Something that in this day and age seems to be rapidly disappearing. I blame love island.

I don’t have any kids so maybe I'm not one to have an opinion, but I've got all these cousins moaning and moaning on Facebook about how fed up they are spending all this time with their children. Really? If you are so sick of spending time with your kids, why did you have them in the first place? My god there's parents up and down the country who have lost a child that this kind of "woe is me" attitude must really slap them in the face when they have lost so much while other parents take things for granted?

If I had kids I'd be loving all this extra time to spend with them. Kids grow up so fast so make every minute count!

[123456789.]

The FT is now reporting a ‘conservative’ estimate of 56,800 actual deaths. That’s heartbreaking.

[Pr4wn]

I think this says a lot:

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/4t87efrvgb/Results%20for%20Coronavirus%20Tracker%20GB%20-%20Wave%206_OMI220%20-%2017.4.2020_political%20(006)%20(003).pdf

See page 3 of the 4. Basically, what you think about UKG on this is based on your 2019 UK GE voting preference. People commenting objectively on this? Pull the other one.

Given that Lab / LD voters are split with 60% of LD voters thinking the government has done well, while 90% of Tory voters think the government are doing well, what exactly have you proven here?

Other than the fact the Brexit vote still thinks the sun shines out of Johnsons fat arse

Who gives a **** about the LDs? I was referring to Labour (i.e. left) and Tory (i.e. right) voters.

See it's still an echo chamber here. Go look up 'confirmation bias'. Enjoy; I'm out.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. I'm sure it also has a lot to do with where people get their news from.

But feel free to actually contribute to the discussion, rather than just rubbishing others' valid arguments with the same old "echo chamber" tripe.

Do you think that the UK government is doing a good job? It's an important discussion to have.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

The FT is now reporting a ‘conservative’ estimate of 56,800 actual deaths. That’s heartbreaking.

We think Trump is doing a bad job, if that figure is real, they have 5 times our population and they still only have 80,000 deaths although they are earlier in the time frame. It would be interesting to see how they made that calculation

[BamBam]

I think this says a lot:

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/4t87efrvgb/Results%20for%20Coronavirus%20Tracker%20GB%20-%20Wave%206_OMI220%20-%2017.4.2020_political%20(006)%20(003).pdf

See page 3 of the 4. Basically, what you think about UKG on this is based on your 2019 UK GE voting preference. People commenting objectively on this? Pull the other one.

Given that Lab / LD voters are split with 60% of LD voters thinking the government has done well, while 90% of Tory voters think the government are doing well, what exactly have you proven here?

Other than the fact the Brexit vote still thinks the sun shines out of Johnsons fat arse

Who gives a **** about the LDs? I was referring to Labour (i.e. left) and Tory (i.e. right) voters.

See it's still an echo chamber here. Go look up 'confirmation bias'. Enjoy; I'm out.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. I'm sure it also has a lot to do with where you get your news from.

But feel free to actually contribute to the discussion, rather than just rubbishing others' valid arguments with the same old "echo chamber" tripe.

Do you think that the UK government is doing a good job? It's an important discussion to have.

He also doesn't read his own statistics, as even Labour voters are split, 42% of 2019 voters think the overgrown ape in charge is doing well, which is the point I was making - labour / lib dems aren't blinded by who they voted for while the Tory muppets are

It's probably because blowhard Brexit bootlickers are scared that if they admit Johnson has been feckin useless and incompetent while handling this, it probably also applies to their beloved Brexit. At least Covid will give them a nice shield to hide behind when Brexit goes tits up

But "British common sense" will obviously save everything

[Steffan]

Wales gets ready to combat foreigners who fail to understand that the country is still on lockdown

[123456789.]

In their defence we are not long off the back of Johnson winning an election that ended the most hyper-partisan, vitriolic parliament in living memory. That parliament followed an election in 2017, the referendum in 2016, the general election in 2015 and the independence referendum in 2014. These events dice up a population and put them in over-simplistic boxes. Both sides played the them and us game at every juncture. During the 'battles' from 2016 onwards Boris Johnson has cemented a pretty strong bond between himself and a large minority of the country. He is the head of a pretty ill-defined, nondescript, angry political movement. Politics is still raw and a charge of ineptitude at the Prime Minister is, by extension, an accusation of incompetence fired at the people who voted for him. It is easier at every turn to engage in a form of wilful ignorance rather than introspection. That goes for both sides. I would say the trend generally here is for people criticising the government to back it up with events or statistics. The Boris Brigade responds in turn with the charge of bias with no corresponding information of their own.

[123456789.]

YouGov's latest Government Approval figures are out, this information was collected before the Dear Leader's "inspiring" speech on Sunday. The Government is down to 44% approval from a high of 52%. The disapproval is at 37% from a low of 26%. It appears the rally around the flag effect is beginning to wear thin.

[lostinwales]

The FT is now reporting a ‘conservative’ estimate of 56,800 actual deaths. That’s heartbreaking.

We think Trump is doing a bad job, if that figure is real, they have 5 times our population and they still only have 80,000 deaths although they are earlier in the time frame. It would be interesting to see how they made that calculation

Far too early to see the full range of Trump's incompetence. On the negative side the USA does not have good medical coverage and a moron for a leader. On the plus side population density outside of the big cities is low. Look at New York in isolation and their figures on infections and death are right up their with the world's worst (cases almost 18k/million and death rate of 1388/million as of yesterday). Worth pointing out that Cuomo has come across very well in general.

[123456789.]

The FT is now reporting a ‘conservative’ estimate of 56,800 actual deaths. That’s heartbreaking.

We think Trump is doing a bad job, if that figure is real, they have 5 times our population and they still only have 80,000 deaths although they are earlier in the time frame. It would be interesting to see how they made that calculation

Far too early to see the full range of Trump's incompetence. On the negative side the USA does not have good medical coverage and a moron for a leader. On the plus side population density outside of the big cities is low. Look at New York in isolation and their figures on infections and death are right up their with the world's worst (cases almost 18k/million and death rate of 1388/million as of yesterday). Worth pointing out that Cuomo has come across very well in general.

I fear the long term consequences of Trump's incompetence will go way beyond the virus and its economic fallout. The free world has not responded well to Coronavirus. Polling has shown that trust and faith in democracy have been shaken in the last decade. Trump was a symptom of that but his ineptitude has taken it further. China has used the crisis to project soft power across the world while Trump has taken isolationism to the extreme. China has already built up bonds of loyalty through the Belt and Road Initiative over the previous decade, while Trump has been parroting nationalism and 'Poopie countries'. After Trump's botched reaction more and more countries will look to China for leadership rather than America.

[123456789.]

I saw today that apparently the better mechanism for assessing testing is 'Tests Per Case' as it allows us to judge how effective testing has been compared to how widespread the outbreak is. South Korea's test per case is 61, New Zealand's 166.7, Germany 17. Ours is 6. That data is for the 10 days leading up to May 9th.

[lostinwales]

Credit where it is due, extending the furlough scheme is the right thing to do - and the new graphic on being lerts is clear, even if the path to this point was paved with incompetence.

[hampo17]

Extending the furlough is a great idea, however ignoring MPs concerns for the 700,000 plus that are receiving zero income as they’re not eligible for furlough or universal credit is another failure by this government.

[BamBam]

Great to see Starmer wipe the floor with the blustering oaf.

There will be a lot of bootlicking required to justify the people's prime minister's performance today, I'm sure many will be ready to step up to the challenge.

Might pop over to the golf section

[123456789.]

The Telegraph's take on PMQs today:

Keir Starmer took Boris Johnson Like A Duplo Train Set

It’s always the toughest stage of The Apprentice: the interviews round. A slick-haired young telemarketer in a shiny suit will swagger in, and start bragging about the foolproof business idea he’s had – only for the interviewer to take him apart like a Duplo train set.

In no time, the candidate has dissolved into a puddle of babbling neurosis, unable to give a convincing answer to any question, up to and including the spelling of his own name.

This is what it’s like, these days, watching Sir Keir Starmer grill Boris Johnson at PMQs. Labour’s new leader is calm, polite, and utterly merciless.

He doesn’t rant or shout putdowns. Instead he asks factual questions designed to establish whether or not the Prime Minister knows what his own Government is doing.

The latest figures, began Sir Keir today, showed that at least 40 per cent of deaths from the virus had come in care homes. Yet according to the Government’s advice in March, it was “very unlikely” that people in care homes would become infected.

Mr Johnson protested. “No, Mr Speaker,” be blurted, “it wasn’t true that the advice said that!”

But it was. Sir Keir was quoting the advice word for word, from a sheet in paper in front of him.

Next he asked about the vast number of unexplained deaths in care homes. In April, there had been 26,000 care home deaths. The previous April, there had been only 8,000. Yet of these additional 18,000 deaths, only 8,000 had been officially attributed to the virus. Could Mr Johnson give the Government’s view as to the possible cause of those 10,000 “unexplained” deaths?

Mr Johnson could not. In fact, it wasn’t obvious he’d understood the question. His reply was a cascade of helpless waffle. “Appalling disease… tragedy taking place… critical to our ability to move forward as a nation…”

On to the death toll overall. The Government, noted Sir Keir, had stopped producing the daily chart which plotted death tolls in various countries, including Britain. Why?

“He seeks to make comparisons with other countries,” snorted Mr Johnson, “which I am advised are premature.”

Sir Keir looked puzzled. The Government had been publishing these “comparisons with other countries” for seven weeks.

“It’s pretty obvious,” he said, “that when we didn’t have the highest number of deaths in Europe, the graphs were used for comparison purposes. But as soon as we did have the highest number, they were dropped.”

It was tough to watch. Mr Johnson’s supporters might well say: who cares about PMQs? The Prime Minister has far more important things on his plate. He’s trying to tackle a pandemic, for pity’s sake.

Which is true. The trouble is, all of Sir Keir’s questions were about the Prime Minister’s handling of that pandemic. About his Government’s advice, its actions, its figures, its findings.

And this week – like last week – the Prime Minister didn’t have the answers.

It's the latest in a string of damning articles in the telegraph and the Mail. They published one yesterday carrying the headline "Government’s handling of Covid-19 is a very British disaster". The article itself was far more nuanced than the headline in fairness. I suppose the readership of both of these papers are overwhelmingly of an older age group. That demographic normally supports Boris Johnson. Now his mistakes are literally killing them off.

[guildfordbat]

Following on from BamBam and Numbers' posts about PMQs, Johnson is coming across dreadfully for sure.

Starmer, on the other hand, continues to impress. Something of the quiet assassin about him. In line with the Telegraph article, he's polite and impressively prepared as he exposes Government weakness and highlights their incompetence and lack of transparency.

Johnson's bluster isn't cutting it. He often seems to forget that the House of Commons is largely empty atm and that there aren't shedloads of Tory MPs ready to cheer any waffly answer to help him get away with it. The House is currently more like a court room and, unsurprisingly given his background, that suits Starmer to a tee - that's good for him in holding the Government to account and good for us too.

[123456789.]

The Spectator is criticising the Blessed Boris now. One wonders if the magazine he used to edit and the newspaper he used to write for think he’s being beaten, if even his mother thinks he’s very good.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Trumps ignorance is also coming back to bite him. A lot of new hot spots are coming to light, all in states with Republican governors who have aped Trumps views on the virus and refused to go into lock down.

He is now attacking his chief infectious diseases expert as Trump took issue with Dr Fauci's comments to a Senate hearing a day earlier about the risks to children of reopening and his assessment that a vaccine was unlikely before classes could begin this autumn.

He said "I was surprised by his answer actually, because, you know, it's just to me - it's not an acceptable answer, especially when it comes to schools,"

"the only thing that would be acceptable" is giving older teachers and professors a few more weeks before they return.

"Because this is a disease that attacks age, and it attacks health," he said. "But with the young children, I mean, and students, it's really - just take a look at the statistics. It's pretty amazing,"

An answer to a committee members question by an acknowledged expert is "not acceptable" as it differs from the answer the cretin would give, as it doesn't suit the way he wants to "run" the country, i.e. give him the best chance of ruining the country for another 4 years before he gets arrested once he is out of office.

The ignoramus's latest comments come amid reports of some young children being severely affected by an inflammatory syndrome that could be linked to the virus. Apart from the risks to the children themselves, even if they were immune to the virus or it hardly affects them, they go home, they will take it with them, their parents and grandparents will catch it, they could die.

[jimbopip]

The problem I'm having at the moment, well one of them, is that while NZ has pretty much eliminated Covid 19 on their islands this is only true as long as they don't allow anyone in from outside. The Swedish mentality of "It won't go away until the world has acquired herd immunity" (my paraphrasing) actually seems quite a realistic and sensible way to look at things.

Obviously the devil is in the detail. How do we manage the outbreaks so they don't overwhelm us? How do we treat the infected in order to maximise survival rates and minimise suffering? How do we keep the economy working, which in the medium and long term is essential to providing satisfactory solutions to the first to problems.

I can't help thinking that our government is not being 100% honest with us. If the solution is that we have to let the pandemic run its course and lockdown is only useful as a means of managing the waves then tell us that. If the solution is that we should go down the North Korean road of digital surveillance, mass testing, rigorous contact tracing and enforced isolation...then tell us and implement it.

What I am concerned about is that we are seeing a government that is primarily avoiding making itself unpopular by taking difficult decisions openly and as such is doing very little other than lockdown and tell us it is going to be alright if we just sit tight.

[123456789.]

I think we're in a sort of rabbits in the headlights situation here.
Around the world countries at a similar week of lockdown are starting to reopen. So people are naturally going to ask the question why aren't we opening up? Of course, they coped better than us in the initial period on tracking, tracing, travel restrictions, earlier lockdowns etc. So they are in a position when they can open up with comparably low levels of transmission. Germany had 927 new cases yesterday, where we had over 3,000. They are testing more than us too.
Logically you would say that simply continuing the lockdown until the rate of transmission is down would be the solution. However people die in recessions too. Our economy contracted by 2% in the first quarter anyhow, of which only the last seven days were under lockdown. We also have the greatest act of economic self-flagellation in British history since the Darien scheme to contend with.
There is the political element too. As a Conservative party they have the charge of being uncaring to consider more-so than a Labour administration. If they raise the lockdown now, then they will be accused of putting profit over people. The rate of transmission will go up.
In effect there are no right choices from now in. The Swedish method has seen five times as many deaths as Norway where they had their first confirmed case and first death on the same day. The Swedish method is 'herd immunity' which is a phrase our government is avoiding like the plague. Politically it is not an option for them now. The South Korean method is out of our capability now. With better management early on and better use of our testing capacity I imagine we could have engaged in track and tracing. To get to that point again we need to reduce the rate of transmission which means extending the lockdown which means the economy taking a hit.
I suppose there's no good option for any of us. Lifting the lockdown means more deaths and more hospitalisations. Extending the lockdown means a harder recession and all that goes with that. The government is damned if they do and damned if they don't and I think they know it. Politically their survival relies on the prevailing attitude that they are doing their best in a bad situation to hold up. There are signs it isn't. The government's approval rating is falling. Starmer now has a higher net approval rating than the PM. I am not saying that this is all the fault of the government. Primary fault must lie with the inept response of the Chinese government to begin with. Equally these are all very difficult decisions, however it is sort of the job of the government to make difficult decisions and to get them right. The evidence suggests that the slower nations were to begin with the longer the road to recovery, and there were few slower than ours.

[tigertattie]

You arent saying it right Numbers!

According to Trump, it's CHI-NA

This whole affair has been a disaster with mankind messing about with nature and mankind also trying to hush things up all for the sake of saving the precious moolah.

The Chinese government have a hell of a lot of explaining to do here. They weren’t not transparent as they didn’t want trade to be impacted by admitting the truth. The rest of the world needs to do something about this, or have we all gone that shallow/greedy that we'll let a blind eye be turned as long as we can get our cheap goods again?

[Samo]

Following on from BamBam and Numbers' posts about PMQs, Johnson is coming across dreadfully for sure.

Starmer, on the other hand, continues to impress. Something of the quiet assassin about him. In line with the Telegraph article, he's polite and impressively prepared as he exposes Government weakness and highlights their incompetence and lack of transparency.

Johnson's bluster isn't cutting it. He often seems to forget that the House of Commons is largely empty atm and that there aren't shedloads of Tory MPs ready to cheer any waffly answer to help him get away with it. The House is currently more like a court room and, unsurprisingly given his background, that suits Starmer to a tee - that's good for him in holding the Government to account and good for us too.

Just got caught up with PMQ’s and Starmer was visceral again. Word of advice to Johnson, dont try and lie to a former QC of Starmers capabilty because he’ll have a detailed list of everything you’ve said and he’ll nail you to a post everytime he senses blood.

I said it last week and I’ll mirror it again here, it’ll be interesting to see how well Starmer can do infront of a full house were Boris’s bluster can be hidden by the braying mob behind him, but Starmer already appears to be a much more effective leader of the opposition than Corbyn ever was, which shows in the approval ratings. Its still too early to say for certain but theres a very real chance we’re looking at the next PM.

[navyblueshorts]

Pre-print on Vit D levels and association w/ Covid-19 severity:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.08.20058578v3

Treat w/ caution, but interesting.

[lostinwales]

Following on from BamBam and Numbers' posts about PMQs, Johnson is coming across dreadfully for sure.

Starmer, on the other hand, continues to impress. Something of the quiet assassin about him. In line with the Telegraph article, he's polite and impressively prepared as he exposes Government weakness and highlights their incompetence and lack of transparency.

Johnson's bluster isn't cutting it. He often seems to forget that the House of Commons is largely empty atm and that there aren't shedloads of Tory MPs ready to cheer any waffly answer to help him get away with it. The House is currently more like a court room and, unsurprisingly given his background, that suits Starmer to a tee - that's good for him in holding the Government to account and good for us too.

Just got caught up with PMQ’s and Starmer was visceral again. Word of advice to Johnson, dont try and lie to a former QC of Starmers capabilty because he’ll have a detailed list of everything you’ve said and he’ll nail you to a post everytime he senses blood.

I said it last week and I’ll mirror it again here, it’ll be interesting to see how well Starmer can do infront of a full house were Boris’s bluster can be hidden by the braying mob behind him, but Starmer already appears to be a much more effective leader of the opposition than Corbyn ever was, which shows in the approval ratings. Its still too early to say for certain but theres a very real chance we’re looking at the next PM.

Starmer will still need a major shift in the polls and backing of the minor parties but it feels like something he is capable of in a way that his predecessor never was. Corbyn remains the weakest opposition leader in my lifetime by some margin. Next worst would be the quiet irritable Duncan syndrome. Honorable mentions to Hague - who probably was not really cut out for that role but wasn't completely stupid, and Michael Foot who was utterly ineffective but at least had a few more things on his CV other than 'failed Labour leader'. There may be others who were just forgettable

[123456789.]

The issue the Labour Party will always have is that it’s members are too self indulgent. For every potential Prime Minister they pick several left wing nut jobs.

[Samo]

Quite enjoyed the irony of watching Amber Rudd “working from home” on Andrew Marr this morning telling teachers to get back to work. Shameless.

[Soul Requiem]

Quite enjoyed the irony of watching Amber Rudd “working from home” on Andrew Marr this morning telling teachers to get back to work. Shameless.

So ironic.

[Pr4wn]

I mean, it basically boils down to the poor having different rules to the rich.

State schools are being put under enormous pressure to go back at the start of next month. Eton isn't going back until September.

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