Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

I suppose it sort of makes sense with the Dyson effort because they just have to switch to blow.
Hope it works.
The self employed will have to adjust in future and get a bit closer to the NI and paye system.It has always been a bit unwritten that you can limit your contributions somewhat as self employed in the building trade and others but a big part of the economy. Again this may close a few gaps

[beninho]

In general some football fans are idiots.

[super_realist]

In general some football fans are idiots.

I think this whole crisis has highlighted just how stupid our population is in general, not just football fans.

[Soul Requiem]

At the time, Serie A had been postponed and other leagues across europe had banned fans. In this country we didn't. It pretty straightforward.

If, you think the same amount of fans go to a game they can't get into, then, in fact you are confused.

I'm pretty sure people questioned it at the time.

You are aware that different countries implement measures at different times based on how advanced the outbreak is at that point?

What use is postponing matches if you still let thousands travel to different countries to watch matches instead?

There are numerous reasons why decisions appear to be delayed. You can't just go straight into lockdown with no in between, there's the social aspect of isolation not being ideal and the effect it has on the mental wellbeing of a population, if society can see there's an issue they are more likely to follow advice. Three weeks ago even in this country the issue seemed a distant one in China, Italy and Iran, you run the risk of social revolt if you immediately take away social mobility.

[beninho]

As I am sure you are aware different countries implemented different measures at different times, Spain for example didn't want mass gatherings and therefore put games behind closed doors, thus limiting any foreign fan from travelling.  They had not implemented total lock down of the country at that point.

The uk government had not made that decision.

I'm not talking about lockdown, I'm talking about stopping big crowds at football matches.

[super_realist]

However you are looking at it Ben, you are using hindsight, which makes it very easy to be critical.

[Soul Requiem]

As I am sure you are aware different countries implemented different measures at different times, Spain for example didn't want mass gatherings and therefore put games behind closed doors, thus limiting any foreign fan from travelling.  They had not implemented total lock down of the country at that point.

The uk government had not made that decision.

I'm not talking about lockdown, I'm talking about stopping big crowds at football matches.

Aside from having a Tory government why do you think that decision was wrong?

[McLaren]

Very uncertain Mac.

Don't want to sound alarmist but I really feel sorry for you having to go through this with Trump in charge. Boris is bad enough but there is no telling what Trump might do, or more importantly not do.

Pray tell, Mac. What do you think Boris et al have done so wrong since this started? Please don't include issues relating to pre-outbreak and/or political bias...

They were clearly going to go for a herd immunity approach up until a last second change of heart. When the inevitable inquiry afterwords confirms this it will expose one of the most negligent government policies in history. Essentially they were about to entrust the decision making on an epidemiological issue to a government spin doctor. Apparently it's all hail Cummings in the NavyBLue household.

It was also left for entities like the premier league to set the agenda in the UK, when the PL is a beacon of sound decision making compared to your government you should start to worry.

Also why are the government resistant to the idea of testing and contact tracing.


And on the NHS funding and corona thing, UK has 6.6 ICU beds per 100,000 people, compared with Germany's 29.2. Things like this will matter.

[McLaren]

In general some football fans are idiots.

I think this whole crisis has highlighted just how stupid our population is in general, not just football fans.

So true.

[beninho]

As I am sure you are aware different countries implemented different measures at different times, Spain for example didn't want mass gatherings and therefore put games behind closed doors, thus limiting any foreign fan from travelling.  They had not implemented total lock down of the country at that point.

The uk government had not made that decision.

I'm not talking about lockdown, I'm talking about stopping big crowds at football matches.

Aside from having a Tory government why do you think that decision was wrong?

I would think it was wrong no matter what the government was.

I think the decision to allow 50 thousand fans in to a football stadium, while seeing the impact in Italy was, at best misguided. I think looking back, it was just wrong. I'm surprised you think it wasn't.

[Soul Requiem]

As I am sure you are aware different countries implemented different measures at different times, Spain for example didn't want mass gatherings and therefore put games behind closed doors, thus limiting any foreign fan from travelling.  They had not implemented total lock down of the country at that point.

The uk government had not made that decision.

I'm not talking about lockdown, I'm talking about stopping big crowds at football matches.

Aside from having a Tory government why do you think that decision was wrong?

I would think it was wrong no matter what the government was.

I think the decision to allow 50 thousand fans in to a football stadium, while seeing the impact in Italy was, at best misguided. I think looking back, it was just wrong. I'm surprised you think it wasn't.

There you go.

[super_realist]

As I am sure you are aware different countries implemented different measures at different times, Spain for example didn't want mass gatherings and therefore put games behind closed doors, thus limiting any foreign fan from travelling.  They had not implemented total lock down of the country at that point.

The uk government had not made that decision.

I'm not talking about lockdown, I'm talking about stopping big crowds at football matches.

Aside from having a Tory government why do you think that decision was wrong?

I would think it was wrong no matter what the government was.

I think the decision to allow 50 thousand fans in to a football stadium, while seeing the impact in Italy was, at best misguided. I think looking back, it was just wrong. I'm surprised you think it wasn't.

There you go.

Exactly, the horse bolted ages ago. Easy to try and look clever now. Move on.

[McLaren]

JAS I too thought that re temperature I think the basis was that is what tends to happen with flu and other seasonal
issues.Some stuff today I thought was interesting and probably stands correct that younger people have not been subject to as many other viruss and types of corona so the immune system kicks in fast.Older folk have had similar virus before and the body may well react initially by thinking I know what this is and can cope giving it a chance to get going before realising no this is new and I need to get on the case and deal with it

Flu and colds don't disappear in Summer - infection rates go down as people are more likely out and about and the warmer temps will reduce viral half-life on surfaces.

As to that theory about mortality link w/ age, if you've encountered an infection before, your reaction/defence (in terms of mobilising relevant adaptive immune response) will be much faster than if you haven't. I don't think immunity works the way you suggest. Suspect it's more likely that the elderly have a compromised immune system cf. kids, simply because they're old and its worn/wearing out, much like a lot of other tissue function.

The immune system definitely doesn't work like Dyna suggests.

[beninho]

As I am sure you are aware different countries implemented different measures at different times, Spain for example didn't want mass gatherings and therefore put games behind closed doors, thus limiting any foreign fan from travelling.  They had not implemented total lock down of the country at that point.

The uk government had not made that decision.

I'm not talking about lockdown, I'm talking about stopping big crowds at football matches.

Aside from having a Tory government why do you think that decision was wrong?

I would think it was wrong no matter what the government was.

I think the decision to allow 50 thousand fans in to a football stadium, while seeing the impact in Italy was, at best misguided. I think looking back, it was just wrong. I'm surprised you think it wasn't.

There you go.

Misguided at the time and proven to be wrong. Its really simple, the government made the wrong decision. Now, they may have thought it was the right decision. I remember reading about Liverpool fans not going even when they had tickets.

[Soul Requiem]

As I am sure you are aware different countries implemented different measures at different times, Spain for example didn't want mass gatherings and therefore put games behind closed doors, thus limiting any foreign fan from travelling.  They had not implemented total lock down of the country at that point.

The uk government had not made that decision.

I'm not talking about lockdown, I'm talking about stopping big crowds at football matches.

Aside from having a Tory government why do you think that decision was wrong?

I would think it was wrong no matter what the government was.

I think the decision to allow 50 thousand fans in to a football stadium, while seeing the impact in Italy was, at best misguided. I think looking back, it was just wrong. I'm surprised you think it wasn't.

There you go.

Misguided at the time and proven to be wrong. Its really simple, the government made the wrong decision. Now, they may have thought it was the right decision.  I remember reading about Liverpool fans not going even when they had tickets.  

You're using hindsight so bravo.

Beninho says the decision was wrong so that's that.

[beninho]

You don't think it was wrong? Even with hindsight?

But, even at the time, I queried why it was played with fans. It seemed a bit odd.

[McLaren]

I am getting quite sick of hearing this hindsight BS. Go check the news from a few weeks back and you will see the government was being questioned about its herd immunity policy from the scientific community. People knew from the beginning that the government was about to go down a catastrophic route.

[Soul Requiem]

Why would I base my opinion on hindsight?

I'd have to know how many people have become infected as a result of that match going ahead, don't forget the Spanish government allowed their citizens to travel to a different country.

[beninho]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/serious-questions-asked-atletico-madrid-17976201.amp

The mayor of liverpool was questioning the game going ahead. But as he says, not his decision to make about it being stopped. Is he allowed an opinion?

[super_realist]

What's the point you're trying to make Beninho? That people have different opinions? That different countries handled things in different ways, that mistakes have been made everywhere?
Do you actually expect this to go without mistakes being made?
Of course they have, and probably will continue to be made.

It seems to be that all the snooping and snitching has to stop too. We don't want to become a police state and some are clearly being a bit over-officious and abusing their powers.

[Soul Requiem]

What's the point you're trying to make Beninho? That people have different opinions? That different countries handled things in different ways, that mistakes have been made everywhere?
Do you actually expect this to go without mistakes being made?
Of course they have, and probably will continue to be made.

It seems to be that all the snooping and snitching has to stop too. We don't want to become a police state and some are clearly being a bit over-officious and abusing their powers.

I'm struggling as well.

The reluctance to accept that things aren't as black and white as we'd like to think is bizarre, the refusal to consider social and mental health issues are equally so.

[beninho]

My initial point, was just that the decision to play the game in front of fans including from Madrid was wrong, even at the time of making the decision.  Weirdly, I've been told I'm not allowed to hold that opinion, even though people at the time queried it.

That's it.

And of course mistakes will be made and have been made, but the whole not allowed to criticise is just crazy.

[beninho]

What's the point you're trying to make Beninho? That people have different opinions? That different countries handled things in different ways, that mistakes have been made everywhere?
Do you actually expect this to go without mistakes being made?
Of course they have, and probably will continue to be made.

It seems to be that all the snooping and snitching has to stop too. We don't want to become a police state and some are clearly being a bit over-officious and abusing their powers.

I'm struggling as well.

The reluctance to accept that things aren't as black and white as we'd like to think is bizarre, the refusal to consider social and mental health issues are equally so.

Social and mental health issues? What's that got to do with football and Cheltenham?

[Soul Requiem]

What's the point you're trying to make Beninho? That people have different opinions? That different countries handled things in different ways, that mistakes have been made everywhere?
Do you actually expect this to go without mistakes being made?
Of course they have, and probably will continue to be made.

It seems to be that all the snooping and snitching has to stop too. We don't want to become a police state and some are clearly being a bit over-officious and abusing their powers.

I'm struggling as well.

The reluctance to accept that things aren't as black and white as we'd like to think is bizarre, the refusal to consider social and mental health issues are equally so.

Social and mental health issues? What's that got to do with football and Cheltenham?

Quite a lot actually and i've explained that before, taking away a populations social mobility which includes attending sport can result in a social revolt as happened in France.

[JAS]

I've seen a lot of idiots mentioning that what we are seeing is as a result of capitalism or greed and that we should tear down our capitalist systems in favour of more socialist ones, whilst they conveniently ignore that this whole virus began in a land where communism is forced upon them and is a direct result of their practices.
Wet markets are not a traditional thing in China, they are only around 40 years old and are down to the practices of the ruling Communist party which limited the availability of food. More capitalism is China might actually have helped.

1. Our worship of capitalism and the way we have allowed it to be applied in the past 10 years undoubtedly HAS contributed (not caused, contributed) to some of the shortcomings in our response.
2. Another conflation of socialism and communism - They are NOT the same, to try and say they are whilst calling others idiots is actually amusing irony
3. “Wet markets are down to Communism”...brilliant, how about you go read Das Kapital and tell us on what page Marks extols the virtues of wet markets...Jeezo Super, you been on the sauce this morning?

China is actually at a crossroads, yes it’s still a brutal communist regime but it has made huge monetary strides in the past decade and could well shake off commie shackles in the coming decade.

[super_realist]

I didnt say Socialism and Communism were the same, but the opposition of capitalism is communism and I've heard people saying that we shouldn't be capitalist anymore.

[super_realist]

I didnt say Socialism and Communism were the same, but the opposite of capitalism is communism (practically speaking) and I've heard people saying (not you) that we shouldn't be capitalist anymore, which is absolutely absurd.

Wet markets are a response to the dictatorial policies of communist regimes. I didn't mean to imply it was a function of communism, more that these sort of things spring up from such practices in reaction to oppressive freedom limiting financial systems.

[JAS]

One thing I did learn at the weekend through a work colleague of my partner whose son and daughter-in-law work on the NHS front line is that the overwhelming “underlying medical issue” observed in hospital and particularly in intensive care IS obesity. 90 -95% of patients They have seen struggling are obese. Grist to Supers mill no doubt, Anecdotal perhaps but no reason to believe their experience won’t be typical.

[super_realist]

One thing I did learn at the weekend through a work colleague of my partner whose son and daughter-in-law work on the NHS front line is that the overwhelming “underlying medical issue” observed in hospital and particularly in intensive care IS obesity. 90 -95% of patients They have seen struggling are obese. Grist to Supers mill no doubt, Anecdotal perhaps but no reason to believe their experience won’t be typical.

Been saying it for years JAS. Such people are a huge part of the reason the NHS isn't as good as it could/should be, yet they are seldomly criticised in media and obesity is normalised incase their feelings are hurt.
Bottom line is if you are fat/obese, you should do something about it, if not for you then for the system which has to deal with the consequences.

Britain is especially bad and it is probably most noticeable when you are in a foreign departure gate waiting for your flight back to the UK. The fatness difference between the country you visited and the one you are going back to is  usually stark (as well as awful sartorial choices) , unless you've been in the US or one of the other grossly fat nations.

[JAS]

Wet markets are a response to the dictatorial policies of communist regimes. I didn't mean to imply it was a function of communism, more that these sort of things spring up from such practices in reaction to oppressive freedom limiting financial systems.

Hmmm, just as foodbanks are a response to neoliberal regimes putting the interests of bankers before the rest of Society.

Wet markets are quite frankly weird however 1 piece of batshit and they’re suddenly demonised (probably rightly).
However the conditions that create the need for foodbanks are just brushed under the carpet.

I have no issues with us having a properly run mixed economy that is run in the interests of its people rather than global corporations. Who actually runs it is irrelevant. Governments of the Left can suck up to global corporates as well and governments of the right can govern in the interests of the people. I believe the norms would be the other way round but you can never be sure and events can and do dictate more than ideology most of the time.

[super_realist]

Well I'm glad you are no longer saying the UK is a free market economy.
I don't agree with food banks either, but it's a bit trite to compare them to wet markets which are ruinously unhygienic, cruel and brutal.

[JAS]

Have to say, and it doesn’t matter which way I look at it, I think the smartest thing Johnson has said in this crisis is that “There IS such a thing as society” THAT is a huge statement and a very deliberate break from any lingering doubt that he might want to pursue a Thatcherite line through this. I do hope he still promotes that view after this is all over.

[super_realist]

Have to say, and it doesn’t matter which way I look at it, I think the smartest thing Johnson has said in this crisis is that “There IS such a thing as society” THAT is a huge statement and a very deliberate break from any lingering doubt that he might want to pursue a Thatcherite line through this. I do hope he still promotes that view after this is all over.

Despite the view that anyone who is a Tory is also extremely right wing Boris is the most "lefty" Tory leader in decades.
As close to centre as you could get from any party

[beninho]

I think boris us a bit of a chameleon, he will say what he wants to win. In London he had to be a bit more central in order to win. But he has been anything but centre or even centre right since becoming pm. Using Cummings as an advisor doesn't help.

I thought, he may temper his erg tendencies but he hasn't yet, he still has Raab and Patel in high office.

I previously thought Trump wouldn't be as he seemed though.....

[JAS]

Have to say, and it doesn’t matter which way I look at it, I think the smartest thing Johnson has said in this crisis is that “There IS such a thing as society” THAT is a huge statement and a very deliberate break from any lingering doubt that he might want to pursue a Thatcherite line through this. I do hope he still promotes that view after this is all over.

Despite the view that anyone who is a Tory is also extremely right wing Boris is the most "lefty" Tory leader in decades.
As close to centre as you could get from any party

When he initially tried to sell himself as a “one-nation” Tory I will admit I scoffed in disbelief but actually yes he is turning out to be just that (although that is currently driven by necessity given current events).  The more that one nationism comes out the more Cummings position will become precarious. He, unlike his boss is NOT a one nation Tory , nor is he elected either.  The sooner Johnson bins him the better, he did a job on Brexit and getting Johnson elected but now that’s done what exactly is his useful purpose?

[McLaren]

Witness accounts from people who have seen people out playing golf.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/coronavirus-scottish-golfers-ignore-lockdown-guidelines-2522122

[Soul Requiem]

I think boris us a bit of a chameleon, he will say what he wants to win. In London he had to be a bit more central in order to win. But he has been anything but centre or even centre right since becoming pm. Using Cummings as an advisor doesn't help.

I thought, he may temper his erg tendencies but he hasn't yet, he still has Raab and Patel in high office.

I previously thought Trump wouldn't be as he seemed though.....

If you concentrate on Brexit alone, economically he's about as centre as any Tory could be.

[super_realist]

Have to say, and it doesn’t matter which way I look at it, I think the smartest thing Johnson has said in this crisis is that “There IS such a thing as society” THAT is a huge statement and a very deliberate break from any lingering doubt that he might want to pursue a Thatcherite line through this. I do hope he still promotes that view after this is all over.

Despite the view that anyone who is a Tory is also extremely right wing Boris is the most "lefty" Tory leader in decades.
As close to centre as you could get from any party

When he initially tried to sell himself as a “one-nation” Tory I will admit I scoffed in disbelief but actually yes he is turning out to be just that (although that is currently driven by necessity given current events).  The more that one nationism comes out the more Cummings position will become precarious. He, unlike his boss is NOT a one nation Tory , nor is he elected either.  The sooner Johnson bins him the better, he did a job on Brexit and getting Johnson elected but now that’s done what exactly is his useful purpose?

He's the Tory Alistair Campbell

[beninho]

I think boris us a bit of a chameleon, he will say what he wants to win. In London he had to be a bit more central in order to win. But he has been anything but centre or even centre right since becoming pm. Using Cummings as an advisor doesn't help.

I thought, he may temper his erg tendencies but he hasn't yet, he still has Raab and Patel in high office.

I previously thought Trump wouldn't be as he seemed though.....

If you concentrate on Brexit alone, economically he's about as centre as any Tory could be.

I don't think boris is generally in the same league as Cash, Rees Mogg, Francois etc I do think he is trying to play for all sides, which is difficult.

[super_realist]

Witness accounts from people who have seen people out playing golf.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/coronavirus-scottish-golfers-ignore-lockdown-guidelines-2522122

Don't really see the harm in relation to that one picture Mac. The government haven't explicitly said we can't play golf. They have said we are allowed out for exercise and like you said earlier I'm not sure why this solo golfer is any worse than a dog walker.

We need to nip this curtain twitching and stasi like snitching though.

[I'm never wrong]

English Golf Union said clubs courses and facilities must close. Don't know what Scottish Golf has said.

Edit found this from the SG site. "With this in mind, Scottish Golf asks that all golfers in Scotland refrain from golfing until further notice."

[super_realist]

English Golf Union said clubs courses and facilities must close. Don't know what Scottish Golf has said.

They may have said that, but it isn't government advice which is my point. Also worth noting that EGU and SGU don't have jurisdiction on anything like this. It is advisory.
If I walk the dog on a golf course and no one would grass on me, if I walked it with a 6 iron and 3 balls I end up in the paper. What's the difference? One is no more risky to health than the other.

[Soul Requiem]

Witness accounts from people who have seen people out playing golf.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/coronavirus-scottish-golfers-ignore-lockdown-guidelines-2522122

Don't really see the harm in relation to that one picture Mac. The government haven't explicitly said we can't play golf. They have said we are allowed out for exercise and like you said earlier I'm not sure why this solo golfer is any worse than a dog walker.

We need to nip this curtain twitching and stasi like snitching though.

How likely are you to finish a round of golf in the hour we've been permitted for exercise?

[super_realist]

Witness accounts from people who have seen people out playing golf.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/coronavirus-scottish-golfers-ignore-lockdown-guidelines-2522122

Don't really see the harm in relation to that one picture Mac. The government haven't explicitly said we can't play golf. They have said we are allowed out for exercise and like you said earlier I'm not sure why this solo golfer is any worse than a dog walker.

We need to nip this curtain twitching and stasi like snitching though.

How likely are you to finish a round of golf in the hour we've been permitted for exercise?

We haven't been granted an hour. No time scale is on exercise. The stipulation is once a day, not one hour.

[beninho]

There is still so much up in the air for what we can and can't do. It's still very open to interpretation.

[Pal Joey]

There is still so much up in the air for what we can and can't do. It's still very open to interpretation.

Tell that to the guy who's just parachuted from a Cessna. A bit late for him I would suspect.

[Soul Requiem]

Witness accounts from people who have seen people out playing golf.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/coronavirus-scottish-golfers-ignore-lockdown-guidelines-2522122

Don't really see the harm in relation to that one picture Mac. The government haven't explicitly said we can't play golf. They have said we are allowed out for exercise and like you said earlier I'm not sure why this solo golfer is any worse than a dog walker.

We need to nip this curtain twitching and stasi like snitching though.

How likely are you to finish a round of golf in the hour we've been permitted for exercise?

We haven't been granted an hour. No time scale is on exercise. The stipulation is once a day, not one hour.

The advice is that people shouldn't be out of their homes for longer than an hour that includes exercise.

[super_realist]

Only citation I have found on this is Gove saying "I would have thought....an hours walk is enough for most people...... but it depends on your level of fitness"

Anyway who's checking you out and in? No one, so if I want to do a two hour run, who's counting?
I went for a walk before starting work today, and I'll go for a run later. Should I be fined?

[beninho]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others/full-guidance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others

It's very confusing, as we are finding out nothing about 1 hour max in the guidelines. Maybe there should be. With so many people unsure, clarification is probably required.

[beninho]

Only citation I have found on this is Gove saying "I would have thought....an hours walk is enough for most people...... but it depends on your level of fitness"

Anyway who's checking you out and in? No one, so if I want to do a two hour run, who's counting?
I went for a walk before starting work today, and I'll go for a run later. Should I be fined?

This is why we love the realist, he dont play by the rules. He's a badass.

[JAS]

Witness accounts from people who have seen people out playing golf.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/coronavirus-scottish-golfers-ignore-lockdown-guidelines-2522122

Don't really see the harm in relation to that one picture Mac. The government haven't explicitly said we can't play golf. They have said we are allowed out for exercise and like you said earlier I'm not sure why this solo golfer is any worse than a dog walker.

We need to nip this curtain twitching and stasi like snitching though.

How likely are you to finish a round of golf in the hour we've been permitted for exercise?

We haven't been granted an hour. No time scale is on exercise. The stipulation is once a day, not one hour.

The advice is that people shouldn't be out of their homes for longer than an hour that includes exercise.

With one in one out at some Supermarkets that will give people about minus half an hour to do their exercising :-p
The herd mentality at supermarkets is crazy. I have a Sainsbury’s and an M&S foodhall about 80 yards from each other, a week ago the Sains looked like it could be in Chernobyl while inside the M&S looking at the shelves you wouldn’t have known there was a crisis.

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