Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

I suppose it sort of makes sense with the Dyson effort because they just have to switch to blow.
Hope it works.
The self employed will have to adjust in future and get a bit closer to the NI and paye system.It has always been a bit unwritten that you can limit your contributions somewhat as self employed in the building trade and others but a big part of the economy. Again this may close a few gaps

[dynamark]

As many know I am a Leicester fan/resident and the club has been conspicuous by its absence no statements, no press issues, no player issues,not a whisper very very quiet which is no bad thing .Our owners business is Air Asia and the KP duty free so that must be taking a kicking.It seems the club have cut off the phones and e mail .
Back to virus if /if we can get to the end of the week and death rate stays 'steady'around 750 that will be a significant position.

[beninho]

I think it's a mixture of current success, recent success fanbase and stature.

I think Man Utd and Liverpool are the biggest clubs in England. But would also class clubs such as Leeds a big club even though they are in the Championship.

I still see Ajax, Milan , Benfica as big clubs. Along with both Celtic and Rangers. Man City and PSG meet the nouveau rich big club list.

Don't think it can ever be defined and I suppose is based on your history of football supporting.

[I'm never wrong]

Tom Moore, £6 million and rising. Good job, him and those who are supporting him.

[Be_the_ball]

I think it's a mixture of current success, recent success  fanbase and stature.

I think Man Utd and Liverpool are the biggest clubs in England. But would also class clubs such as Leeds a big club even though they are in the Championship.

I still see Ajax, Milan , Benfica as big clubs. Along with both Celtic and Rangers. Man City and PSG meet the nouveau rich big club list.

Don't think it can ever be defined and I suppose is based on your history of football supporting.

City are a massive club.

[dynamark]

If I had a second club when I was young it was Chelsea.I mean numbers on the shorts what s all that,one colour kit this was a revolution.And then the players Bonetti,Rodriguez,Hollins,Osgood Cooke,Hutchison (first long throw)Harris.I should really know the rest,I thought they were the business.

[kwinigolfer]

Rodriguez belonged to you, not Chelsea!

[dynamark]

kwin your right am I thinking of a Chelsea player called something like Kriswicki .Certainly had eddie mcreadie.

[Soul Requiem]

It is unfortunately the daily mail but is based on official figures.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8225159/Spain-sees-rise-coronavirus-cases-5-183-new-infections.html

I think it's best to wait until this is all over before we try dissecting the numbers too much.

[I'm never wrong]

kwin your right am I thinking of a Chelsea player called something like Kriswicki .Certainly had eddie mcreadie.

Eddie Niedzwiecki?

[kwinigolfer]

I wonder if dyna is thinking of West Brom's Dick Krzywicki, but he never played for CFC and Eddie N was a decade later.

Alan Hudson was just coming through at that time though . . . . . . .

[dynamark]

Your both right I think I'm going stir crazy.
Some official figures today 90% of deaths havisong underlying heath conditions
Also interesting fella on radio this morning behaviour scientist basically saying anyone under 30 years is almost immune and if they get it very little effect so why are we treating that age group the same as the 60 year olds bearing in mind we all have to live with the virus around.Under 30s could resume a normallish life but would have to be very careful mixing with older folk .Vulnerable(my90%) have to adopt a very different and disciplined lifestyle until we can vaccinate.

[Soul Requiem]

What about the under 30's with unknown underlying health issues?

I was once upon a time a healthy 26 year old who used to cycle the Tour De France route every year. 3 months after ascending Ventoux I collapsed at work having had a heart attack after which I was diagnosed as having non hodgkin's lymphoma, two unrelated but major health problems discovered in one week. It's so naive to think that youth automatically makes you immune to these things.

[super_realist]

Jesus imaginary Christ, why can't Laura Kuennsburg use some common sense and ask a decent question? She is absolutely hopeless.

[kwinigolfer]

I'd like to know how they're going to be able to test 100,000 a day within two weeks.
They're more likely to reach their 20,000 deaths threshold first.

[dynamark]

Soul that must have been a great trip .
Youth is no guarantee but in your case you happily got this far and would I presume be very careful at present.
The point the expert was making(what have all these experts been doing for last 20years)is that this is a group who seem very resilient even if they get infected and therefore maybe they should be first to open up the economy whilst being very careful.The basic distancing stuff we could happily do for the next 12 months.Someone is going to have to make the decisions.I didn't go to 2 jobs today but could have done and stayed well isolated from the tenants got the jobs underway and the contractor could have done the work on the same basis .But I'm sat at home under present rules.

[Soul Requiem]

China has increased the official total of deaths in Wuhan by exactly 50%, now that is one perfect statistical anomaly.

[navyblueshorts]

I'd like to know how they're going to be able to test 100,000 a day within two weeks.
They're more likely to reach their 20,000 deaths threshold first.

It is, and always was, a target. In any case, 100k per day capacity != 100k tested per day.

[navyblueshorts]

Jesus imaginary Christ, why can't Laura Kuennsburg use some common sense and ask a decent question? She is absolutely hopeless.

Agreed. She's awful. Perhaps she should bow out to one of the actual health editors?

[kwinigolfer]

Sad to see Norman Hunter won't be biting legs any more.

[navyblueshorts]

Soul that must have been a great trip .
Youth is no guarantee but in your case you happily got this far and would I presume be very careful at present.
The point the expert was making(what have all these experts been doing for last 20years)is that this is a group who seem very resilient even if they get infected and therefore maybe they should be first to open up the economy whilst being very careful.The basic distancing stuff we could happily do for the next 12 months.Someone is going to have to make the decisions.I didn't go to 2 jobs today but could have done and stayed well isolated from the tenants got the jobs underway and the contractor could have done the work on the same basis .But I'm sat at home under present rules.

You're assuming all people could be trusted to behave and don't become blasé about situation so start slacking. I have no such assumptions - far easier to have a blanket rule. Agree, though, that someone will have to make some difficult decisions before too long.

[kwinigolfer]

I'd like to know how they're going to be able to test 100,000 a day within two weeks.
They're more likely to reach their 20,000 deaths threshold first.

It is, and always was, a target. In any case, 100k per day capacity != 100k tested per day.

I know that, but testing is so key (once again, here as well as there) that there needs to be a plan and nothing from any of the Gov't's chinless wonders suggests that there is.

Very interesting, and hopefully instructive, that "business executives" told Drumpf that consumers wouldn't be kick-starting the economy anytime soon unless they could be confident in adequate, commensurate testing capabilities. No real plan visible here either.

[navyblueshorts]

I'd like to know how they're going to be able to test 100,000 a day within two weeks.
They're more likely to reach their 20,000 deaths threshold first.

It is, and always was, a target. In any case, 100k per day capacity != 100k tested per day.

I know that, but testing is so key (once again, here as well as there) that there needs to be a plan and nothing from any of the Gov't's chinless wonders suggests that there is.

Very interesting, and hopefully instructive, that "business executives" told Drumpf that consumers wouldn't be kick-starting the economy anytime soon unless they could be confident in adequate, commensurate testing capabilities. No real plan visible here either.

Testing's important going forward, but re. your 20k comment, they're already at more than 35k/day capacity. Why would UKG publish any 'plan' that they can't guarantee, when they know they'll get pilloried for any part of it that isn't as originally trailed? It's not my fault if the 21st century average person has the attention span/patience of a fruit fly.

TBH, surprised (no, not actually) at Trump, because I'd imagine a huge # of individual or class action suits etc suing businesses if people have to return to work and it's not 'safe' enough, leading to deaths directly linked to SARS2.

[kwinigolfer]

navy,
But why would they throw out numbers with no idea how to achieve or substantiate them?

Drumpf is fighting an election on a platform almost entirely based on the (faux) economy, and he's desperate - will do anything he thinks he can get away with. Any problems, he'll blame the States or Industry and he's got a Trump TV Network to echo every single porky he comes up with #playingtohisbase

[navyblueshorts]

navy,
But why would they throw out numbers with no idea how to achieve or substantiate them?

Drumpf is fighting an election on a platform almost entirely based on the (faux) economy, and he's desperate - will do anything he thinks he can get away with. Any problems, he'll blame the States or Industry and he's got a Trump TV Network to echo every single porky he comes up with #playingtohisbase

You mean testing #s? They have a plan, I'm sure - what makes us think we need to know the details?

Re. Trump, everything is best viewed through the prism of what's in it for him, either financially or electorally. I don't think he thinks of anyone, but himself. Not even his family except insofar as how they can boost his own ego. I think he's a sociopath, tbh.

[super_realist]

That's what I find annoying too. Why are the media and public wanting to know every detail about a subject they don't understand. We will find out when it is clear what route we will have to take.

The calls for publishing of the "exit strategy" is laughable as circumstances can be so different and simply cannot be forecast. Starmer just made himself look like an idiot by asking for that, but I suspect he did it because he's been very quiet since his coronation.

[kwinigolfer]

Agree that who cares about knowing "every detail", but if progress is clearly off track, then people are surely right to question whether there IS substance or it's just a number.

[navyblueshorts]

Agree that who cares about knowing "every detail", but if progress is clearly off track, then people are surely right to question whether there IS substance or it's just a number.

Maybe, but is it 'off track'? Certainly not clearly and we're barely past mid-April re. the 100k/day goal.

[JAS]

What about the under 30's with unknown underlying health issues?

I was once upon a time a healthy 26 year old who used to cycle the Tour De France route every year. 3 months after ascending Ventoux I collapsed at work having had a heart attack after which I was diagnosed as having non hodgkin's lymphoma, two unrelated but major health problems discovered in one week. It's so naive to think that youth automatically makes you immune to these things.

Fair play Soul, that’s an exceptional annual trip. I used to harbour ambitions of doing the Alp Duez climb one day, still not done it. Ventoux was where Tommy Simpson perished, hope you never copied his pre climb preparation :-p

Dare I say if you thought Ventoux was a frightening challenge, I bet what came after set cycling in perspective. You’re all ok and relatively healthy now??

[dynamark]

Starmer starting to look like an attention seeker at times.
PPE govt obviously doing its best but still some issues.
We have to accept this virus is not going to wander off into the sunset we have to find a way of living and working with it in our lives or we will have economic and social problems that are catastrophic.
We have to get the economy going again with rules in place and schools and to an extent the social life.I cant imagine cinemas opening and no one would go anyway but we have to open workplaces and schools at some point with strict rules.The best measures to slow infection must have been isolation of the vulnerable,the 7/14 day rules and reducing public transport.the other stuff whilst effective was probably a lower factor and that is where we must gradually feed back in.It has to be done in a few weeks time or its last man out switch off the lights.

[JAS]

Sad to see Norman Hunter won't be biting legs any more.

Obviously don’t know what his lifestyle/fitness was like post football career but it is sad/concerning to see previously fit individuals succumbing. I see Dalglish has beaten it off though

[Soul Requiem]

What about the under 30's with unknown underlying health issues?

I was once upon a time a healthy 26 year old who used to cycle the Tour De France route every year. 3 months after ascending Ventoux I collapsed at work having had a heart attack after which I was diagnosed as having non hodgkin's lymphoma, two unrelated but major health problems discovered in one week. It's so naive to think that youth automatically makes you immune to these things.

Fair play Soul, that’s an exceptional annual trip. I used to harbour ambitions of doing the Alp Duez climb one day, still not done it. Ventoux was where Tommy Simpson perished, hope you never copied his pre climb preparation :-p

Dare I say if you thought Ventoux was a frightening challenge, I bet what came after set cycling in perspective. You’re all ok and relatively healthy now??

Tommy Simpson was the very reason I got into cycling and watching Wiggins attempt a breakaway on the 40th anniversary was what made me decide to do it. The first time I attempted Ventoux I did stop at the memorial and have to say i've never struggled so much in my life but was better prepared next time. Alp D'huez is a killer but the Tourmalet is THE real challenge, the descent if you go for it is hellraising.

All good now but has to be said I was very fortunate. My consultant said that in a perverse way the heart attack saved my life.

[super_realist]

Agree that who cares about knowing "every detail", but if progress is clearly off track, then people are surely right to question whether there IS substance or it's just a number.

It's clear as the nose on anyone's face given the current death rate that this second three week phase was necessary. Far too much can change between now and the end that it is clearly not advisable to state anything beyond that point or give any advice on to how any phased exit will happen because it either gives false hopes or more despair.
Remember that your average Briton is a moron Kwini, we have to walk at the same speed as the slowest person in our country.

[super_realist]

Sad to see Norman Hunter won't be biting legs any more.

Obviously don’t know what his lifestyle/fitness was like post football career but it is sad/concerning to see previously fit individuals succumbing. I see Dalglish has beaten it off though

Hunter was 76, unlikely he would have lasted for many more years, so his death is not a surprise. He's already passed the average life expectancy for a man from the North . A good innings for a footballer from the 60's

[kwinigolfer]

What's "the average life expectancy for a man from" Hampshire?
You've got me a bit worried there super. But it sounds as if Norman was pretty fit for his age and still a respected analyst/commentator, apparently.


Incidentally, completely agree the "second three week phase was necessary", just a shame it didn't all start earlier.

[super_realist]

What's "the average life expectancy for a man from" Hampshire?
You've got me a bit worried there super. But it sounds as if Norman was pretty fit for his age and still a respected analyst/commentator, apparently.


Incidentally, completely agree the "second three week phase was necessary", just a shame it didn't all start earlier.

Would expect the south to be higher than  County Durham, whilst footballers of that era were hardly known for taking care of themselves.

It might have been good to start the lockdown earlier, but it might have been better if WHO didn't make such a mess of things earlier too. Apparently now they are acknowledging Chinese Medicine which is absolutely disgraceful if true.

[JAS]

What's "the average life expectancy for a man from" Hampshire?
You've got me a bit worried there super. But it sounds as if Norman was pretty fit for his age and still a respected analyst/commentator, apparently.


Incidentally, completely agree the "second three week phase was necessary", just a shame it didn't all start earlier.

Would expect the south to be higher than  County Durham, whilst footballers of that era were hardly known for taking care of themselves.

It might have been good to start the lockdown earlier, but it might have been better if WHO didn't make such a mess of things earlier too. Apparently now they are acknowledging Chinese Medicine which is absolutely disgraceful if true.

Eh? What Chinese Medicine as in Herbs and acupuncture etc? Why is that disgraceful?...because western clinicians can’t prove its validity? Because we don’t understand it? Something else?

[super_realist]

We shouldn't be trusting anything which is not scientifically proven. Why on earth would you?
They've also made moves to permitting China to resume wet markets which is also disgraceful.

[JAS]

We shouldn't be trusting anything which is not scientifically proven. Why on earth would you?
They've also made moves to permitting China to resume wet markets which is also disgraceful.

All I would say is that elements of Chinese medicine have been in existence for a couple of thousand years. Western medicine has evolved much more recently, some of the crackpot ideas western medicine had less than 100 years ago is frightening. The other thing about western medicine is the influence now of big Pharma. So how much can we trust western medicine? Consequently are we really in that much of a position to ridicule alternatives simply because we don’t understand them?

[super_realist]

We shouldn't be trusting anything which is not scientifically proven. Why on earth would you?
They've also made moves to permitting China to resume wet markets which is also disgraceful.

All I would say is that elements of Chinese medicine have been in existence for a couple of thousand years. Western medicine has evolved much more recently, some of the crackpot ideas western medicine had less than 100 years ago is frightening. The other thing about western medicine is the influence now of big Pharma. So how much can we trust western medicine? Consequently are we really in that much of a position to ridicule alternatives simply because we don’t understand them?

What does something having been in existence for a long time got to do with its veracity? Nothing. If it hasn't been proven to work, then a health organisation should not be giving it credence.
I'm not asking WHO to approve of "big pharmacy" either, and I don't know if it does I'm only asking them to advocate medicine which can be demonstrated to work and Chinese medicine doesn't stand up to the scientific method.
The point is how an organisation such as WHO, who have not covered themselves in glory over this whole crisis, is now advocating something indistinguishable from crackpot medicine as well as making concessions for reopening of wet markets. Not to mention how disgracefully their representative behaved when they pretended not to hear the questions from Taiwan because to give them credit would anger China.

Also, the EU have also been very shabby in this whole situation.

[beninho]

When you say demonstrate to work, what do you base that on? I'm no expert on medication at all. Where do you stand on cannabis?

[JAS]

We shouldn't be trusting anything which is not scientifically proven. Why on earth would you?
They've also made moves to permitting China to resume wet markets which is also disgraceful.

All I would say is that elements of Chinese medicine have been in existence for a couple of thousand years. Western medicine has evolved much more recently, some of the crackpot ideas western medicine had less than 100 years ago is frightening. The other thing about western medicine is the influence now of big Pharma. So how much can we trust western medicine? Consequently are we really in that much of a position to ridicule alternatives simply because we don’t understand them?

What does something having been in existence for a long time got to do with its veracity? Nothing. If it hasn't been proven to work, then a health organisation should not be giving it credence.
I'm not asking WHO to approve of "big pharmacy" either, and I don't know if it does I'm only asking them to advocate medicine which can be demonstrated to work and Chinese medicine doesn't stand up to the scientific method.
The point is how an organisation such as WHO, who have not covered themselves in glory over this whole crisis, is now advocating something indistinguishable from crackpot medicine as well as making concessions for reopening of wet markets. Not to mention how disgracefully their representative behaved when they pretended not to hear the questions from Taiwan because to give them credit would anger China.

Also, the EU have also been very shabby in this whole situation.

The point of being in existence for a long time in the world of medicine to means that it must have some merit. Things that don’t work tend to fade away. Seriously Super you’re displaying a very dismissive and closed mind “western view” of the world.

[super_realist]

No it doesn't mean that it must have merit at all. I hate to bring it up but people have believed in god for thousands of years, doesn't mean it has any merit whatsoever, and it clearly does not.
Would you like WHO to advocate prayer as something with merit?

Chinese medicine includes things like using tiger manhood and rhino horn. How could you possibly claim that such usage has merit?
Loads of cultural practices have been around for ages, does not mean for a second that any of it has any basis in fact.

I'd rather be closed minded about something than make the absurd and unjustifiable claim that it must have merit simply because its been around for a while. I can think of loads of things that have been around for a while but it doesn't make them true.  Its not even being closed minded, I simply must require higher standards of evidence than you do.

I'm happy to accept anything true at the very moment when it can be demonstrated to be true, until then I reject it.
WHO is supposed to be an organisation based on evidence and science, not cultural practices like pseudo science such as Chinese medicine.
If Chinese medicine actually worked, we would be using it.

[navyblueshorts]

We shouldn't be trusting anything which is not scientifically proven. Why on earth would you?
They've also made moves to permitting China to resume wet markets which is also disgraceful.

All I would say is that elements of Chinese medicine have been in existence for a couple of thousand years. Western medicine has evolved much more recently, some of the crackpot ideas western medicine had less than 100 years ago is frightening. The other thing about western medicine is the influence now of big Pharma. So how much can we trust western medicine? Consequently are we really in that much of a position to ridicule alternatives simply because we don’t understand them?

What does something having been in existence for a long time got to do with its veracity? Nothing. If it hasn't been proven to work, then a health organisation should not be giving it credence.
I'm not asking WHO to approve of "big pharmacy" either, and I don't know if it does I'm only asking them to advocate medicine which can be demonstrated to work and Chinese medicine doesn't stand up to the scientific method.
The point is how an organisation such as WHO, who have not covered themselves in glory over this whole crisis, is now advocating something indistinguishable from crackpot medicine as well as making concessions for reopening of wet markets. Not to mention how disgracefully their representative behaved when they pretended not to hear the questions from Taiwan because to give them credit would anger China.

Also, the EU have also been very shabby in this whole situation.

The point of being in existence for a long time in the world of medicine to means that it must have some merit. Things that don’t work tend to fade away. Seriously Super you’re displaying a very dismissive and closed mind “western view” of the world.

Yeah. Rhino horn and tiger pizzle are still thought to work as a part of 'traditional' Chinese medicine. I rest my case.

[navyblueshorts]

When you say demonstrate to work, what do you base that on? I'm no expert on medication at all. Where do you stand on cannabis?

In what context? That it gets people high? Δ9THC (and relatives) are well known, and proven, psychotics.

[super_realist]

Yeah. Rhino horn and tiger pizzle are still thought to work as a part of 'traditional' Chinese medicine. I rest my case.

Kids have been believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus for hundreds of years, so by JAS's view, we shouldn't discount that they could be true, because they are old beliefs.

[navyblueshorts]

Yeah. Rhino horn and tiger pizzle are still thought to work as a part of 'traditional' Chinese medicine. I rest my case.

Kids have been believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus for hundreds of years, so by JAS's view, we shouldn't discount that they could be true, because they are old beliefs.

To be fair, he was talking about medicine, not religion etc.

[super_realist]

Yeah. Rhino horn and tiger pizzle are still thought to work as a part of 'traditional' Chinese medicine. I rest my case.

Kids have been believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus for hundreds of years, so by JAS's view, we shouldn't discount that they could be true, because they are old beliefs.

To be fair, he was talking about medicine, not religion etc.

His criteria for it being something which has merit was how long it has been around. Besides Chinese medicine is by and large not medicine, its cultural, like voodoo or black magic, which also have been believed in and haven't died out, it doesn't mean we should give them credence does it?
Loads of old wives tales go under the umbrella of "medicine" but who on earth would believe them until they can be proven to work.

[beninho]

When you say demonstrate to work, what do you base that on? I'm no expert on medication at all. Where do you stand on cannabis?

In what context? That it gets people high? Δ9THC (and relatives) are well known, and proven, psychotics.

I know it gets you high, aah good old weed. But other then that, with regards to its medicinal properties?

[beninho]

Yeah. Rhino horn and tiger pizzle are still thought to work as a part of 'traditional' Chinese medicine. I rest my case.

Kids have been believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus for hundreds of years, so by JAS's view, we shouldn't discount that they could be true, because they are old beliefs.

To be fair, he was talking about medicine, not religion etc.

His criteria for it being something which has merit was how long it has been around. Besides Chinese medicine is by and large not medicine, its cultural, like voodoo or black magic, which also have been believed in and haven't died out, it doesn't mean we should give them credence does it?
Loads of old wives tales go under the umbrella of "medicine" but who on earth would believe them until they can be proven to work.

But what If someone takes or tries something and it works? who is the bastion of what does and doesn't work for people? Jas will know better on this, but who was the religious Trinidad cente back at the popes rangers, who refused an operation and prayed, and he made a very very quick recovery?

[navyblueshorts]

Yeah. Rhino horn and tiger pizzle are still thought to work as a part of 'traditional' Chinese medicine. I rest my case.

Kids have been believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus for hundreds of years, so by JAS's view, we shouldn't discount that they could be true, because they are old beliefs.

To be fair, he was talking about medicine, not religion etc.

His criteria for it being something which has merit was how long it has been around. Besides Chinese medicine is by and large not medicine, its cultural, like voodoo or black magic, which also have been believed in and haven't died out, it doesn't mean we should give them credence does it?
Loads of old wives tales go under the umbrella of "medicine" but who on earth would believe them until they can be proven to work.

JAS said:

The point of being in existence for a long time in the world of medicine...

(my emphasis)

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