Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

Just wondering what ailment you have which does not have a proven cure from modern medicine but for which Chinese "medicine" does.
Mac is the secretive one, not me.

[super_realist]

It's the worst I have felt for years when I had that around Christmas. Quite short lived though.

Why did your doctor give you antibiotics for a viral infection? Antibiotics don't work on viral infections.

[McLaren]

I didn't think it could get more mental than some of the opinions held by super but someone advocating for the efficacy of Chinese medicine takes it to another level.

[McLaren]

It's the worst I have felt for years when I had that around Christmas. Quite short lived though.

Why did your doctor give you antibiotics for a viral infection? Antibiotics don't work on viral infections.

Super it is possible to get bacterial pneumonia as a result of having the flu.

[beninho]

It's the worst I have felt for years when I had that around Christmas. Quite short lived though.

Why did your doctor give you antibiotics for a viral infection? Antibiotics don't work on viral infections.

I say antibiotics, but I can't remember, he gave me something, as he thought it sounded a bit chesty. He said others were not. He also said some people had been struggling for a number of weeks.

I hadn't felt as rough since, I had cellulitis in 2018. That was horrendous.

[beninho]

I didn't think it could get more mental than some of the opinions held by super but someone advocating for the efficacy of Chinese medicine takes it to another level.  

Man tries something, it works. Others don't believe him. Aren't we meant to be adults?

[super_realist]

I didn't think it could get more mental than some of the opinions held by super but someone advocating for the efficacy of Chinese medicine takes it to another level.  

Man tries something, it works. Others don't believe him. Aren't we meant to be adults?

The very clear and obvious point is that there is no evidence that it was the Chinese "Medicine" that was responsible for the cure.
To say "it worked" is jumping the gun.

[McLaren]

I can't help but think Jas and Beninho are on the wind up and that me and super have taken the bait. That has to be what is happening here?

[super_realist]

I can't help but think Jas and Beninho are on the wind up and that me and super have taken the bait. That has to be what is happening here?

Thinking the same Mac. It's hard to believe a Brit would use faith in this way. We've been had Mac, so perhaps we are the gullible ones here.

[dynamark]

Jas Hi - interested reading your comments about Crones and lymph node issues.I went to Docs few years ago thinking a had a hernia ,well I did have 2 actually but they found some large lumps in my abdomen after telling me it was probably serious cancer we ended up with a diagnosis of large multi occulated mesenteric tissue mass in the abdomen on a lymph node -not operable.I have no symptoms at all other than a larger than ideal tummy but the consultants came to the conclusion it was a rare side effect of coeliacs disease and put me on the coeliacs diet to attempt to stop it and avoid irritation in the large intestine .I wondered if that had been considered by your docs pretty rare but a gluten free diet is sure better than cancer.Agree with the golf course open it should be safe enough with a hew rules as will many other things TBH.

[beninho]

I'm not on a wind up, It just doesn't bother me. I struggle to understand the need to try and belittle someone else. Acupuncture is pretty common practice and even used on the NHS in some instances.

Maybe, sometimes just be grown up.

[westisbest]

I had a bad cough for some time. Went to the doctor twice. They said my chest was ok, etc. Second time about three weeks. Same thing. Said couldn’t do x ray till after 8 weeks.

8 weeks passed. Had to ring up for x ray. Had the x ray, came back that I had a shadow on the bottom of my right lung. They said they were treating it as pneumonia.
Was on antibiotics. Week later cough gone.

Have to go back early may for second x ray.

As we’re sharing.

[super_realist]

I'm not on a wind up, It just doesn't bother me. I struggle to understand the need to try and belittle someone else. Acupuncture is pretty common practice and even used on the NHS in some instances.

Maybe, sometimes just be grown up.

Believing in the efficacy of things for bad reasons is not healthy.

As for acupuncture, I actually had it, but not for the mad meridian reasons of Chinese medicine but to isolate which particular muscle in my foot was giving me problems.

Lots of things are common practice, doesn't mean they're true.

[McLaren]

Ben

As we saw with Trump yesterday the propagation of bunk science is dangerous. Ingesting bleach to treat covid and Chinese medicine are on equal scientific footing.


I really think schools should introduce a course that doesn't cover the actual material of a science subject but covers what the scientific method is and how things like evidence based medicine work. Like a philosophy of science course that develops critical thinking skills.

[beninho]

I'm not on a wind up, It just doesn't bother me. I struggle to understand the need to try and belittle someone else. Acupuncture is pretty common practice and even used on the NHS in some instances.

Maybe, sometimes just be grown up.

Believing in the efficacy of things for bad reasons is not healthy.

As for acupuncture, I actually had it, but not for the mad meridian reasons of Chinese medicine but to isolate which particular muscle in my foot was giving me problems.

Lots of things are common practice, doesn't mean they're true.

Man who hates chinese medicine uses chinese medicine. Brilliant.

[super_realist]

I'm not on a wind up, It just doesn't bother me. I struggle to understand the need to try and belittle someone else. Acupuncture is pretty common practice and even used on the NHS in some instances.

Maybe, sometimes just be grown up.

Believing in the efficacy of things for bad reasons is not healthy.

As for acupuncture, I actually had it, but not for the mad meridian reasons of Chinese medicine but to isolate which particular muscle in my foot was giving me problems.

Lots of things are common practice, doesn't mean they're true.

Man who hates chinese medicine uses chinese medicine. Brilliant.

Wrong, I used the instruments and the physios knowledge of anatomy, not the medicine. You are being rather dense today.
There was no Chinese Medicine involved whatsoever.

[beninho]

Ben

As we saw with Trump yesterday the propagation of bunk science is dangerous. Ingesting bleach to treat covid and Chinese medicine are on equal scientific footing.


I really think schools should introduce a course that doesn't cover the actual material of a science subject but covers what the scientific method is and how things like evidence based medicine work. Like a philosophy of science course that develops critical thinking skills.

You seem to think, I actually care?

[super_realist]

Ben

As we saw with Trump yesterday the propagation of bunk science is dangerous. Ingesting bleach to treat covid and Chinese medicine are on equal scientific footing.


I really think schools should introduce a course that doesn't cover the actual material of a science subject but covers what the scientific method is and how things like evidence based medicine work. Like a philosophy of science course that develops critical thinking skills.

You seem to think, I actually care?

You don't care what works or not? Explains a lot.

[beninho]

I'm not on a wind up, It just doesn't bother me. I struggle to understand the need to try and belittle someone else. Acupuncture is pretty common practice and even used on the NHS in some instances.

Maybe, sometimes just be grown up.

Believing in the efficacy of things for bad reasons is not healthy.

As for acupuncture, I actually had it, but not for the mad meridian reasons of Chinese medicine but to isolate which particular muscle in my foot was giving me problems.

Lots of things are common practice, doesn't mean they're true.

Man who hates chinese medicine uses chinese medicine. Brilliant.

Wrong, I used the instruments and the physios knowledge of anatomy, not the medicine. You are being rather dense today.
There was no Chinese Medicine involved whatsoever.

Now wikipedia isn't always correct but it says
Acupuncture, along with moxibustion, is one of the oldest practices of traditional Chinese medicine.[29] Most historians believe the practice began in China, though there are some conflicting narratives on when it originated

So, if you have used acupuncture in any form, you have used the oldest form of Chinese medicine.

[McLaren]

Ben

You wouldn't care if NICE just abandoned evidence based medicine and replaced NHS medics with practitioners of chinese medicine or witch doctors?

[beninho]

Ben

You wouldn't care if NICE just abandoned evidence based medicine and replaced NHS medics with practitioners  of chinese medicine or witch doctors?

#whataboutery.

Have they?

[super_realist]

I'm not on a wind up, It just doesn't bother me. I struggle to understand the need to try and belittle someone else. Acupuncture is pretty common practice and even used on the NHS in some instances.

Maybe, sometimes just be grown up.

Believing in the efficacy of things for bad reasons is not healthy.

As for acupuncture, I actually had it, but not for the mad meridian reasons of Chinese medicine but to isolate which particular muscle in my foot was giving me problems.

Lots of things are common practice, doesn't mean they're true.

Man who hates chinese medicine uses chinese medicine. Brilliant.

Wrong, I used the instruments and the physios knowledge of anatomy, not the medicine. You are being rather dense today.
There was no Chinese Medicine involved whatsoever.

Now wikipedia isn't always correct but it says
Acupuncture, along with moxibustion, is one of the oldest practices of traditional Chinese medicine.[29] Most historians believe the practice began in China, though there are some conflicting narratives on when it originated

So, if you have used acupuncture in any form, you have used the oldest form of Chinese medicine.

Wrong again. The instrument was used, the technique and practice was not.
If I use a computer mouse to scratch my back, I am not engaging in computing, therefore this was not acupuncture.

Lots of things are used for the purpose they were not intended. Doesn't under any definition mean that was Chinese "Medicine". Would you consider it Acupuncture if they'd used a pin?

Acupuncture is supposed to relieve pain and act as a therapy.
It is a pseudoscience.

[super_realist]

Ben

You wouldn't care if NICE just abandoned evidence based medicine and replaced NHS medics with practitioners  of chinese medicine or witch doctors?

#whataboutery.

Why do you bring up whataboutery where it isn't required? There's a time and place for it and Mac's point is relevant.

[beninho]

I'm not on a wind up, It just doesn't bother me. I struggle to understand the need to try and belittle someone else. Acupuncture is pretty common practice and even used on the NHS in some instances.

Maybe, sometimes just be grown up.

Believing in the efficacy of things for bad reasons is not healthy.

As for acupuncture, I actually had it, but not for the mad meridian reasons of Chinese medicine but to isolate which particular muscle in my foot was giving me problems.

Lots of things are common practice, doesn't mean they're true.

Man who hates chinese medicine uses chinese medicine. Brilliant.

Wrong, I used the instruments and the physios knowledge of anatomy, not the medicine. You are being rather dense today.
There was no Chinese Medicine involved whatsoever.

Now wikipedia isn't always correct but it says
Acupuncture, along with moxibustion, is one of the oldest practices of traditional Chinese medicine.[29] Most historians believe the practice began in China, though there are some conflicting narratives on when it originated

So, if you have used acupuncture in any form, you have used the oldest form of Chinese medicine.

Wrong again. The instrument was used, the technique  and practice was not.
If I use a computer mouse to scratch my back, I am not engaging in computing, therefore this was not acupuncture.

Lots of things are used for the purpose they were not intended. Doesn't under any definition mean that was Chinese "Medicine". Would you consider it Acupuncture if they'd used a pin?

Acupuncture is supposed to relieve pain and act as a therapy.
It is a pseudoscience.

You said you had had acupuncture? If you haven't then fine. Im just going on what you said.

[beninho]

Ben

You wouldn't care if NICE just abandoned evidence based medicine and replaced NHS medics with practitioners  of chinese medicine or witch doctors?

#whataboutery.

Why do you bring up whataboutery where it isn't required? There's a time and place for it and Mac's point is relevant.

It's not relevant in any way, it's just making up a scenario which is not going to happen. Its #whataboutery in purest form.

[super_realist]

What I should have said is that a physio has used acupuncture needle to find the source of my issue, not in a medicinal sense. Fair enough?

[super_realist]

Ben

You wouldn't care if NICE just abandoned evidence based medicine and replaced NHS medics with practitioners  of chinese medicine or witch doctors?

#whataboutery.

Why do you bring up whataboutery where it isn't required? There's a time and place for it and Mac's point is relevant.

It's not relevant in any way, it's just making up a scenario which is not going to happen. Its #whataboutery in purest form.

And its not relavent for you to claim that "it worked" when you have no evidence that it did. Two can play that game.

[beninho]

Ben

You wouldn't care if NICE just abandoned evidence based medicine and replaced NHS medics with practitioners  of chinese medicine or witch doctors?

#whataboutery.

Why do you bring up whataboutery where it isn't required? There's a time and place for it and Mac's point is relevant.

It's not relevant in any way, it's just making up a scenario which is not going to happen. Its #whataboutery in purest form.

And its not relavent for you to claim that "it worked" when you have no evidence that it did. Two can play that game.

I'm just going on the report from the person involved. You don't believe him. I have no issues with it. It's weird to drag this out so much.

Because, in general its something I really dont care much about.

[super_realist]

Yeah, I don't believe it was the Chinese medicine, why do you?
Did you believe it was the prayer that healed Marvin Andrews?

You can believe what you like, but it doesn't make it true. JAS might be convinced that it was the Chinese "Medicine" but it doesn't make it true. That sort of "faith" leads to gullibility.

You don't care, but you can't stop commenting? Mmm

[navyblueshorts]

It's the worst I have felt for years when I had that around Christmas. Quite short lived though.

Why did your doctor give you antibiotics for a viral infection? Antibiotics don't work on viral infections.

Super it is possible to get bacterial pneumonia as a result of having the flu.

Yeah, but not really diagnosable by GP.

[Be_the_ball]

“Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light,” Trump said, “and then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way.”

“I see disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute—one minute—and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning,” “Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So you're going to have to use medical doctors, but it sounds interesting to me.”

I KNOW! LETS MAKE HIM THE PRESIDENT!

[beninho]

Problem again is, it really doesn't bother me either way. I'm not overly fussed. Jas or a footballer feeling better after something doesn't impact me. If they feel it helped, fair play to them. Hardly sacrificing a virgin at the alter is it?

My mum died clutching her cross, it made her feel better. I'm not going to argue the toss. But, I'm generally a reasonable person.

[navyblueshorts]

Ben

As we saw with Trump yesterday the propagation of bunk science is dangerous. Ingesting bleach to treat covid and Chinese medicine are on equal scientific footing.


I really think schools should introduce a course that doesn't cover the actual material of a science subject but covers what the scientific method is and how things like evidence based medicine work. Like a philosophy of science course that develops critical thinking skills.

You seem to think, I actually care?

Stop commenting then?

[super_realist]

Problem again is,  it really doesn't bother me either way. I'm not overly fussed. Jas or a footballer feeling better after something doesn't impact me. If they feel it helped, fair play to them. Hardly sacrificing a virgin at the alter is it?

My mum died clutching her cross, it made her feel better. I'm not going to argue the toss. But, I'm generally a reasonable person.

Feeling better and making you better are two different things.

[beninho]

Ben

As we saw with Trump yesterday the propagation of bunk science is dangerous. Ingesting bleach to treat covid and Chinese medicine are on equal scientific footing.


I really think schools should introduce a course that doesn't cover the actual material of a science subject but covers what the scientific method is and how things like evidence based medicine work. Like a philosophy of science course that develops critical thinking skills.

You seem to think, I actually care?

Stop commenting then?

He asked me a question.

[super_realist]

No he didn't. Nothing in that post you quoted is a question.

[westisbest]

Problem again is,  it really doesn't bother me either way. I'm not overly fussed. Jas or a footballer feeling better after something doesn't impact me. If they feel it helped, fair play to them. Hardly sacrificing a virgin at the alter is it?

My mum died clutching her cross, it made her feel better. I'm not going to argue the toss. But, I'm generally a reasonable person.

[beninho]

No he didn't. Nothing in that post you quoted is a question.

Well it was a post aimed and addressed to me. I advised I dont really care.

[super_realist]

Yes, you keep saying you don't care but...….

Changing tack, why are those idiots who come out to clap the NHS on Westminster Bridge being tolerated?

[westisbest]

It’s crazy. A clip I saw the police were there and they were not even moving people to the correct distance.

[super_realist]

It’s crazy. A clip I saw the police were there and they were not even moving people to the correct distance.

It should be a doorstep thing. I don't think anyone could complain about that, besides, you are only supposed to be out for food shopping and exercise, doesn't look like any of these untermensch are doing either of those two options. Even bloody Cressida Dick was there flouting the rules last week.

[beninho]

I honestly thought the clapping was for one week. I was genuinely surprised at week 2.

[super_realist]

I honestly thought the clapping was for one week. I was genuinely surprised at week 2.

I'm always wondering what the racket is until the penny drops.

[JAS]

Jas or a footballer feeling better after something doesn't impact me. If they feel it helped, fair play to them. Hardly sacrificing a virgin at the alter is it?

I can confirm that no virgin was sacrificed at the altar in the process. Well I’m sure there wasn’t but I can’t scientifically prove it evidentially either way :-p

[JAS]

Unbelievable!! There are none so blind as those that WILL not see because they choose not to.

I’d never say I’d exclusively abandon western medicine (that would be bonkers) but I had a condition which couldn’t be diagnosed, treated or cured by what we would call conventional  means so I sought an alternative, not because I believed western medicine was crap and Chinese medicine was wonderful and scientifically proven (I really didn’t care, my prime objective was to get resolved a debilitating condition which was getting progressively worse). My doctors/consultants had pretty much exhausted their investigations and had only a vague notion of what it might be. I therefore looked at an alternative. It may we’ll be that it was a MASSIVE coincidence that a condition that had been getting steadily worse and more frequent over a 3-4 year period started to recede and over a few months disappeared completely after a course of Chinese Herbal medicine and acupuncture. I don’t really give a Poopie if was a coincidence or even a fluke. It went and I’m grateful it did.
Chinese Medicine will have its flaws, charlatan practitioners etc but so does all branches of medicine (Harold Shipman anyone??). It’s way too easy to ridicule something you don’t understand. I don’t understand it myself, I don’t need to, I tried it because I was desperate and it either worked or a HUGE coincidence happened. This was about 14-18 years ago and I’m still symptom free both from the cellulitis and lymph gland issues and indeed Crohns.

Perhaps it was stress, JAS, and you went to get some needles, relaxed and/or believed it might help, so it did. When they test this sort of thing double-blind etc, I'll take it on board. Stress is well known to be linked to outbreaks of psoriasis, eczema etc.

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if that we’re the case Navy, I was always an angry young man with a lot of internal angst. Asthma and Crohns are 2 ailments that do tend to target highly stressed people and stress does manifest itself in strange ways.

What I’m not sure I’m understanding from the chuckle brothers ridicule is what’s behind the vociferous denial of the POSSIBILITY that some forms of ‘complementary’ medicine might actually be worthwhile trying if conventional diagnosis/treatment has hit the buffers as it were.

It’s not just TCM, there’s homeopathy, reflexology, chiropractic, osteopathy etc. Obviously things like osteopathy are beginning to be more universally accepted. Probably because there are fewer medical professionals with minds as closed as the chuckle brothers these days.

[McLaren]

Ben

I don't think it was fair to categorise my response as whataboutery. I was trying to ascertain the limits to which you think non evidence based medicine is ok? More a reductio.

[super_realist]

JAS, I've always been open to the possibility that some of the Chinese "Medicine" may have a positive effect, and I've stated that many times here, however without evidence it's impossible to say if this particular instance which you have experienced was a result of Chinese "Medicine" or whether it was one of dozens of other explanations.

Homeopathy has been proven to be nonsense by the way.

You seem to think that Mac and I have closed minds, but I'd simply state that I require higher standards of evidence than you do. Why is it seen as a negative to demand that a claim can be proven before I accept it as true? Surely that is the only logical stance to take, especially in regard to a claim which is fairly extraordinary.

[McLaren]

Jas

Can't speak for the other chuckle but my issue with quackery like chinese medicine is that it is at best fraudulent and at worst doing people serious harm.

But on a more personal level I would put forward the idea that the scientific method and its application to medicine is one of the most important advances humanity has ever made. To crap all over that is unforgivable in my book.

[McLaren]

JAS, I've always been open to the possibility that some of the Chinese "Medicine" may have a positive effect, and I've stated that many times here, however without evidence it's impossible to say if this particular instance which you have experienced was a result of Chinese "Medicine" or whether it was one of dozens of other explanations.

Exactly, the time to take chinese medicine seriously is when a particular treatment becomes just medicine. And that happens after clinical trials.

[JAS]

Unbelievable!! There are none so blind as those that WILL not see because they choose not to.

I’d never say I’d exclusively abandon western medicine (that would be bonkers) but I had a condition which couldn’t be diagnosed, treated or cured by what we would call conventional  means so I sought an alternative, not because I believed western medicine was crap and Chinese medicine was wonderful and scientifically proven (I really didn’t care, my prime objective was to get resolved a debilitating condition which was getting progressively worse). My doctors/consultants had pretty much exhausted their investigations and had only a vague notion of what it might be. I therefore looked at an alternative. It may we’ll be that it was a MASSIVE coincidence that a condition that had been getting steadily worse and more frequent over a 3-4 year period started to recede and over a few months disappeared completely after a course of Chinese Herbal medicine and acupuncture. I don’t really give a Poopie if was a coincidence or even a fluke. It went and I’m grateful it did.
Chinese Medicine will have its flaws, charlatan practitioners etc but so does all branches of medicine (Harold Shipman anyone??). It’s way too easy to ridicule something you don’t understand. I don’t understand it myself, I don’t need to, I tried it because I was desperate and it either worked or a HUGE coincidence happened. This was about 14-18 years ago and I’m still symptom free both from the cellulitis and lymph gland issues and indeed Crohns.

JAS, you sound like an evangelical. I will accept Chinese Medicine as soon as it is scientifically proven to work. Until then I am not justified in believing that is what relieved you of your  ailment. (nor are you)
It could have been many things which caused your turnaround, so what method did you use to determine it was the Chinese "medicine" and not some other reason?
Was it your lucky socks that is responsible for your beloved Rangers doing better in Europe this year? That's the level you are currently operating at, and accepting the nonsense from your " practitioner" that you are out of balance is simply crazy.

Harold Shipman wasn't a charlatan, he was a serial killer. What he did had nothing to do with properly proven Medicine not working and everything to do with him being a psychopath. Terrible analogy Jas. You can do better than that.

What is more coincidental, that a scientifically unproven method worked over a period of months, or that your symptoms receded naturally as they frequently over the same time period.

How did you rule out the magic dermatology fairy?

Look I had the symptoms, I suffered them over a long period and believe me it was hell at times. I pushed and pushed for a resolution and did not get past vague theories of what it could be. I then started to try an alternative approach and the symptoms faded away. I with an open mind am prepared to consider that it was EITHER the treatment or a coincidental natural regression of the undiagnosed ailment. What you or Mac can’t seem to grasp is that maybe something doesn’t need to be scientifically proven before it works.
So if some big scientific study’s was undertaken now and a report was published that confirmed scientifically that TCM does have validity and does work would you then say “Ah Jas, it wasn’t a coincidence after all, the acupuncture and herbs really did help you after all”

[beninho]

Ben

I don't think it was fair to categorise my response as whataboutery. I was trying to ascertain the limits to which you think non evidence based medicine is ok?  More a reductio.  

It was #whataboutery. You basically said, whatabout if this happened. It was a bit pointless.

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