Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

I'm fine with immigration of people who bring value to the country in one way or another, who wouldn't be? What I'm not in favour of is people who bring nothing to the country in terms of skills, education, money etc. I wouldn't expect the many millions of useless Britons to be able to go the other way either just for balance.

What policy is has actively being engaged to stop people of a particular race unable to enter the country anyway? I've not seen any.

[super_realist]

For example see todays report from PHE which analyses why people from BAME backgrounds were disproportionately effected.

Hint, some pretty specific "other factors".

Mac, you've completely ignored population density, transport, travel, housing type, age distribution, obesity, size of London, etc which governments are not responsible for. You can't talk about numbers and ignore those points unique to Britain.
Those are outwith the control of government and is why you can't just look at government policy.

[super_realist]

Now that is whataboutery. Whether sturgeon performed well or not does not invalidate the premise that the UKG were Poopie at dealing with covid.

It is, but very relevant to the argument. I'm sure you can make points where the UK government could have done better, but given that they are not the only government to make the same errors you can't claim its down to their politics.

[kwinigolfer]

Wouldn't you agree though, that the Westminster-centric policies and attitude of the UKG are an impediment to facilitating satisfactory outcomes for the entire country?

Out of interest, are Wales, Scotland and NI responsible, for instance, for having their own specific allocation of test kits?

I only ask because, in the US, each State has had to act independently of Washington to secure PPE. test kits (that actually work), etc, etc. Our State worked pretty much independently of Washington to secure necessary PPE when the "Nation's Stockpile" couldn't be relied upon. Does any of that resonate, or is Sturgeon etc merely responsible for local policy?

[super_realist]

Health is devolved Kwini and Scotland, NI and Wales are responsible for testing and the testing strategy.
Scotland in particular are testing at a much lower rate than the rest of the UK, have been returning people to care homes without testing and not surprisingly have a high death rate in these care homes. They also weren't previously offering tests to many front line workers where England were.

[McLaren]

Kwini

In my group of friends the conversation has been based on the premise that the UKG did a horrible job but a lot of chat has been about why Sturgeon did not deviate more from the UKG policy. Although health is devolved I have no idea where scotland stands in terms of initiating a response to a pandemic.

Could she have started a Scotland only lockdown before the UK wide one?

Why was the Nike conference outbreak covered up?

Testing for NHS staff came pretty late in the game.

Could Scotland have gone down the extreme lockdown with track and trace route like NZ did?

[super_realist]

What I can't work out Mac is why so many people here are so in favour of Sturgeon. Do you think they aren't aware of where she has failed on Covid or are just deluded SNP fans?
If the Tories had done what she has done the comments board would be more clogged than a Scotsman's arteries

[McLaren]

Super

Firstly it is not clear to me where disaster response or whatever you want to call it falls within devolution. Did Sturgeon have more leeway and didn't use it, or was she pretty much stuck with whatever boris did?

But even if she couldn't have initiated lockdown independently I think she could have deviated more drastically from the UKG tactic after that given that health is devolved.

So, no. I don't think people think she has failed. But really the questions are not really being asked that would reveal scope she had to do things better. I doubt the SNP fanboys care about the answers.

[super_realist]

It's almost as if she's beyond criticism though Mac, the Scottish death rate, care home deaths, testing, discharging of patients without a test, not testing front line workers, Nike cover up, low testing figures all fall under the remit of her party, that's before you even go into their failing record on education and wider Scottish health and poorly performing Scottish NHS.

[kwinigolfer]

Kwini

In my group of friends the conversation has been based on the premise that the UKG did a horrible job but a lot of chat has been about why Sturgeon did not deviate more from the UKG policy. Although health is devolved I have no idea where scotland stands in terms of initiating a response to a pandemic.

Could she have started a Scotland only lockdown before the UK wide one?

Why was the Nike conference outbreak covered up?

Testing for NHS staff came pretty late in the game.

Could Scotland have gone down the extreme lockdown with track and trace route like NZ did?

Yup, I get all that, but no-one can test if they don't have kits available. I was just wondering how availability of test kits was determined, or whether they were subject to procurement competition from NHS Trusts, other countries or the UKG.

The issue of returning COVID patients to nursing homes / senior living etc, is just universally nuts, Scotland probably no worse than plenty of other places.
We nearly made the same mistake and probably would have if it wasn't for a series of expletive-ridden rants from a patient.

[super_realist]

But they do have the tests Kwini. Currently they are under half the capacity for testing and have been for a long time.

As for Scottish care home deaths they have been twice the rate of the rest of the UK, and Scotland was returning hospital patients to care homes with no tests.

[kwinigolfer]

But they do have the tests Kwini. Currently they are under half the capacity for testing and have been for a long time.

As for Scottish care home deaths they have been twice the rate of the rest of the UK, and Scotland was returning hospital patients to care homes with no tests.

They couldn't have had tests readily available for long though but, if that's what the stats say, so be it. Just because of geography and economies of scale a small number of kits won't go anywhere near proportionately as far in Scotland (pop, say, 5.5M) as ten times as many kits in England (pop, say 56.0M).

I'll never understand the care home nonsense - we purchased a wing of a Hilton hotel to sequester any positive cases who didn't need serious hospital treatment. Easy to do in a small town though.

[super_realist]

They've had more than enough tests for ages.

[McLaren]

Kwini

Probably rather shamefully I don't actually know how test kit procurement worked in the UK, especially for the devolved nations. In normal times health and presumably medical supply procurement is devolved to the Scottish Government, but in a national emergency things might change so the countries are not competing for the same equipment.

As it stands my opinion is IF sturgeon could have done things differently then why didn't she? And without a good answer to that she will have to face the same questions about incompetency that the UKG faces.

[super_realist]

She'll just excuse it and lie like she did with Care Home deaths and Nike coverup

[McLaren]

Actually we seem to be able to exit lockdown differently in Scotland compared to the UK so could we have entered it differently?

[super_realist]

Actually we seem to be able to exit lockdown differently in Scotland compared to the UK so could we have entered it differently?

I think so Mac, but there was so much confusion back then that no one really knew what to do.

[McLaren]

Actually we seem to be able to exit lockdown differently in Scotland compared to the UK so could we have entered it differently?

I think so Mac, but there was so much confusion back then that no one really knew what to do.

Yeh but Scotland (or Sturgeons Scotland) likes to promote the image of a cutting edge small country that could do things in more modern and progressive way than the UK. And despite the confusion other small nations with a modern outlook like NZ and Iceland managed to see through the confusion and do it the right way. It was Sturgeons time to shine and she just copied the incompetence of Boris (obviously with the caveat that we assume she could have done it differently to him).

[super_realist]

Fair point. I can only assume that her popularity is more to do with Scottish people's inherent hatred of the Tories rather than a misapprehension that she is actually doing a good job.

[beninho]

Kwini, you mentioned jrm earlier. Basically, he's a bit of a cnut. I don't need to give any evidence.

Have you seen the farce at the commons, all his doing. Its ridiculous.

[Soul Requiem]

I love Rees-Mogg.

[kwinigolfer]

I love Rees-Mogg.

First positive thing I've seen you say.
I'm inclined to agree with ben, he comes across as despicable.

EDIT: Isn't this voting manouevre discriminatory? Seems to be a (not so) hidden agenda going on there.

The only time I've really enjoyed et'n and Oxford was in the account of a Rugby game many moons ago when someone had a mouthful of the ear of an Oxford wing forward whose name, I believe, was Ollie Waldron. The incident was subtitled "Eaten and Oxford".

[dynamark]

Thought the BBC question at the press conf yesterday was pretty disgraceful putting in 'black lives matter' to a question about BAME deaths .There is no context .
Males are giving a similar stat the BAME and no one says 'mens lives matter'
Super has listed all manner of factors later in the thread as to why this may be occurring all pretty obvious when you give it some thought on top of a previous well documented prevelance through genes to certain disease.

[super_realist]

Thought the BBC question at the press conf yesterday was pretty disgraceful putting in 'black lives matter' to a question about BAME deaths .There is no context .
Males are giving a similar stat the BAME and no one says 'mens lives matter'
Super has listed all manner of factors later in the thread as to why this may be occurring all pretty obvious when you give it some thought on top of a previous well documented prevelance through genes to certain disease.

Precisely, there's all manner of illnesses that people from certain minority groups are more likely to suffer from which could lead to higher rates of death, yet this is never discussed.
BBC journalism has been poor for years and has become increasingly more biased, so much so they've even had to apologise for it.

[superflyweight]

Actually we seem to be able to exit lockdown differently in Scotland compared to the UK so could we have entered it differently?

I think so Mac, but there was so much confusion back then that no one really knew what to do.

Yeh but Scotland (or Sturgeons Scotland) likes to promote the image of a cutting edge small country that could do things in more modern and progressive way than the UK. And despite the confusion other small nations with a modern outlook like NZ and Iceland managed to see through the confusion and do it the right way. It was Sturgeons time to shine and she just copied the incompetence of Boris (obviously with the caveat that we assume she could have done it differently to him).

If she was head of anything other than a nationalist government she would be getting a lot more criticism for how she dealt with it.

[Pal Joey]

Actually we seem to be able to exit lockdown differently in Scotland compared to the UK so could we have entered it differently?

I think so Mac, but there was so much confusion back then that no one really knew what to do.

Yeh but Scotland (or Sturgeons Scotland) likes to promote the image of a cutting edge small country that could do things in more modern and progressive way than the UK. And despite the confusion other small nations with a modern outlook like NZ and Iceland managed to see through the confusion and do it the right way. It was Sturgeons time to shine and she just copied the incompetence of Boris (obviously with the caveat that we assume she could have done it differently to him).

If she was head of anything other than a nationalist government she would be getting a lot more criticism for how she dealt with it.  

She ought to be battered in dark chocolate and flung into the North Sea.

[dynamark]

I hope the chip shop who came up with the fried mars bar put a patent on it.It has become over the years a part of language and culture.

[Pal Joey]

I hope the chip shop who came up with the fried mars bar put a patent on it.It has become over the years a part of language and culture.

I know my comment was way out of line, dyna. I would never do (or suggest) such a thing of course. That would be a waste of good dark chocolate!
The added sea reference relates to a unpopular radio shock-jock comment made here that so-and-so "should be put into a hessian bag and tossed..."

[McLaren]

put into a hessian bag and tossed..."

What super pays for is his own business.

[McLaren]

Thought the BBC question at the press conf yesterday was pretty disgraceful putting in 'black lives matter' to a question about BAME deaths .There is no context .
Males are giving a similar stat the BAME and no one says 'mens lives matter'
Super has listed all manner of factors later in the thread as to why this may be occurring all pretty obvious when you give it some thought on top of a previous well documented prevelance through genes to certain disease.

Precisely, there's all manner of illnesses that people from certain minority groups are more likely to suffer from which could lead to higher rates of death, yet this is never discussed.
BBC journalism has been poor for years and has become increasingly more biased, so much so they've even had to apologise for it.

Go to pages 39 to about 42 in the report. Your queries are dealt with.

[navyblueshorts]

I'm quite thankful in a way that we live in the UK, we've handled it far from perfectly but at least we have the ability to come to our own conclusion of things based on government numbers and wider than that the ONS statistics.

You mean the ONS statistics that you, super and navy refused to accept a few weeks back?And that Navy claimed was confirmation bias to mention?

[McLaren]

Navy


That's how I felt when you made the accusation.

[navyblueshorts]

Jesus wept. One reason for the lockdown to end: causing an end to this high-brow discussion on here.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy


That's how I felt when you made the accusation.

Whatever Mac. You don't understand what we were talking about or what I meant. No point in discussing anything w/ you as you can't understand a position that anyone else adopts or why your own might be flawed.

Moving on...

[McLaren]

As I understood it you cliamed using ONS data was confirmation bias, am I wrong?

[super_realist]

As I understood it you cliamed using ONS data was confirmation bias, am I wrong?

Perfect proof of how you can't follow an argument.

[McLaren]

Well why don't you and navy stop being so coy and just tell me exactly what your point was?

[super_realist]

The point was that people were trying to use ONS figures in isolation to prove that the government response has been poor, when any fair minded person simply has to concede that statistics don't tell you that on their own. I can think of two dozen reasons off the top of my head why the UK figures are bad before you even look at the government involvement and influence on those numbers. Can't you?

I don't think it's in doubt that the UK government could have responded quicker and better like every country could, very easy in hindsight, however statistics do not tell the whole story and cannot be used in isolation to compare two different countries, which was being done in the same argument and was clearly fallacious.

I hope that's clear enough for your pea brain to process.

[McLaren]

Super

Then you are the one suffering conformation bias because you are praying that your pet theories about the UK being relatively more fat and unhealthy offer the answer. This blinkered thinking is causing you to miss evidence that is coming out all the time that says the UKG effed this up compared to other countries.


The Swedish guy who came up with their strategy has at least had the balls to apologise. If he can accept lax or late lockdown causes more deaths than necessary when can't you?

Or would it hurt too much to abandon your its cause they are fat theory?

[McLaren]

Also it is now becoming clear why you have not been as critical as you could have been about sturgeon. You don't necessarily think her copying Boris was a bad strategy. In your eyes she might still be proven to have tagged her strategy onto one of the most competent reactions to covid.

[super_realist]

Super

Then you are the one suffering conformation bias because you are praying that your pet theories about the UK being relatively more fat and unhealthy offer the answer. This blinkered thinking is causing you to miss evidence that is coming out all the time that says the UKG effed this up compared to other countries.


The Swedish guy who came up with their strategy has at least had the balls to apologise. If he can accept lax or late lockdown causes more deaths than necessary when can't you?

Or would it hurt too much to abandon your its cause they are fat theory?

Good grief Mac you are incredibly dim.  I haven't claimed it is JUST because they are fat, that is one of dozens of reasons. Government decisions are also part of the problem, but the simple fact is that statistics do not and cannot tell the whole story, which is what you are unable to see.

I'm not out to defend the government, I'm just not so stupid that I would think their decisions are the only reason for our high death rates. How on earth did you manage to get an MSc with such appalling reasoning skills and laughable comprehension?

[super_realist]

Also it is now becoming clear why you have not been as critical as you could have been about sturgeon. You don't necessarily think her copying Boris was a bad strategy. In your eyes she might still be proven to have tagged her strategy onto one of the most competent reactions to covid.

I have been incredibly condemnatory of Sturgeon. I haven't ever claimed that Boris strategy was good, I've simply claimed that there is more to a countries death figures than just strategy. So once again you prove that you can't follow an argument. I sincerely hope that with your reasoning skills you are not in charge of anything with responsibility.

[McLaren]

But it's trivial to say there is more to a countries death rate than the government strategy. The point is how well did a government respond to covid and what characteristics of the countries demographics are they responsible for.

[Soul Requiem]

But it's trivial to say there is more to a countries death rate than the government strategy. The point is how well did a government respond to covid and what characteristics of the countries demographics are they responsible for.

No it's not, it simply doesn't suit your agenda to consider anything other than government policy.

[super_realist]

But it's trivial to say there is more to a countries death rate than the government strategy. The point is how well did a government respond to covid and what characteristics of the countries demographics are they responsible for.

No Mac, its entirely factual. I can think of dozens of reasons as to why two countries rates of infection and death will differ. Why can't you?

The point of the argument that I was disputing was that the ONS figures directly reflected poor government strategy. Clearly there is more to it than that.

Do you think government strategy is the only thing which affects a countries infection or death rate?

[dynamark]

The N Irish leader said their pop density very rural generally was very very low compared to UK levels 20 times higher I think so less infection.Its not difficult to understand.
re the black lives thing has anyone else noted how the people on media speaking out very strongly are usually African or caribbean origin.rarely see anyone from Asian origin on that platform.It seems they have got into living here done pretty well may be more religious and self motivated and fairly happy with their lot.
Just my observation and in US mainly African American.

[McLaren]

But dyna, you are simple racist fellow. No one expects you you to get it. Just pipe down.

[navyblueshorts]

As I understood it you cliamed using ONS data was confirmation bias, am I wrong?

Perfect proof of how you can't follow an argument.

[dynamark]

Thanks Mac pretty typical from yourself.If I get drawn with you in a medal Ill pass thanks
I spend a lot of time thru work with mainly Asian origin families and you do not get that feeling of injustice and unhappiness with their situation.

[super_realist]

Strange that those who rightly had a go at Cummings are oddly silent about the BLM protest in London which is putting a lot more people at risk. Is it because they aren't in the government?

[JAS]

Strange that those who rightly had a go at Cummings are oddly silent about the BLM protest in London which is putting a lot more people at risk. Is it because they aren't in the government?

Just had that exact debate (not on here) and your point is bang on regarding the apparent abandonment of social distancing whilst protesting, just like the press hounds clambering over each other breaking the rules to film a guy who broke the rules. Just waiting for the protestors to use the lame excuse of “well Cummings broke the rules” when the R rate starts ticking back up. For everybody else every life matters and causing an up tick in R rate is not in line with demonstrating that every life matters.

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