Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

I'm fine with immigration of people who bring value to the country in one way or another, who wouldn't be? What I'm not in favour of is people who bring nothing to the country in terms of skills, education, money etc. I wouldn't expect the many millions of useless Britons to be able to go the other way either just for balance.

What policy is has actively being engaged to stop people of a particular race unable to enter the country anyway? I've not seen any.

[super_realist]

Meanwhile...are we starting to see a divergence between Scottish numbers and UK numbers? The past 3 days have seen the Scottish deaths come in at 1,12 & 9 whereas the UK numbers have been circa 350ish each day. I would expect the UK figure (based on the population ratio + earlier stats) to be  10-15 times the Scottish one, I know its been slightly more that that at times over the piece but this week, on average Scottish deaths are running about 1/50th of UK ones. Similarly with new infection, the Scottish figure today is 49, proportionately the UK one should be around 500 to 750, however its been more than double that every day this week.

All very anecdotal but IF those differences are as a result of Scotland having had a slightly longer and tighter lockdown then we could be about to see the UK figure start to accelerate upwards when the beachcombers start falling sick.

On the other hand the statistical anomaly on infections could be explained by perhaps a proportionately higher volume of testing in England. I suppose the grim reality of the death stats will tell us over the coming weeks.

Total deaths are pretty much on parity for the population differences.
Those figures  from  Scotland are largely over the weekend, when the rest of the UK numbers were also low (less than 200 ish)
Thursdays are a better time to look at the numbers as weekend numbers have filtered through.

[westisbest]

Is it no longer illegal to throw missiles at police and punch them then?

Clapping essential workers on Thursday. "F*ck the police" on Wednesday. Unbelievable.

F*ck the police every day as far as I am concerned.

What an idiotic thing to say Mac.

Agree. Something a teenager would say.

[super_realist]

Is it no longer illegal to throw missiles at police and punch them then?

Clapping essential workers on Thursday. "F*ck the police" on Wednesday. Unbelievable.

F*ck the police every day as far as I am concerned.

Coming straight from the underground?

They have the authority to kill a minority

When? We are talking about UK here.

Not a hip hop fan?

Sorry missed the reference. Public Enemy?

[JAS]

Maybe the protesters have picked the optimally strategic time to protest. If the government really cared about getting the R0 down and black rights they would give the protesters something as quickly as possible to end the protest and just do what black people deserve.

They could easily announce some legislation that even things out for black people and agree that the queen and boris would give a joint apology for the British colonization and enslavement of Africans. If they were feeling really nice they could throw in something about only allowing the US access to the massive new post brexit trade deals if they adhered to human rights around arrest and treatment of black people.

How about not conflating 2 very different issues.

As for the idiocy (that seems to be my go to word today) of an apology for colonisation & enslavement... how about GTF with lame attempts to open up and airbrush errors out of history. It happened, it's done the world moved on. Yes there are some neanderthals still out there but I'd suggest giving them a history lesson through it prism of an apology will do eff all to change their flawed minds

[McLaren]

Maybe the protesters have picked the optimally strategic time to protest. If the government really cared about getting the R0 down and black rights they would give the protesters something as quickly as possible to end the protest and just do what black people deserve.

They could easily announce some legislation that even things out for black people and agree that the queen and boris would give a joint apology for the British colonization and enslavement of Africans. If they were feeling really nice they could throw in something about only allowing the US access to the massive new post brexit trade deals if they adhered to human rights around arrest and treatment of black people.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:  You are absolutely hilarious Mac. Why should anyone apologise for slavery now? It's been over 200 years.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Because no one has apologised yet. Plus incidents like windrush show that the UKs mistreatment of black people isn't a historical event that happened 200 years ago.

[super_realist]

You are naive Mac.

This protest is absurd in the UK, there's absolutely no need for it. Its not about racism, nor is it about police brutality. It appears to be just a load of middle class virtue signalling anarchists looking for something to do.

[McLaren]

No, you are racist so don't understand.

[super_realist]

No, you are racist so don't understand.

Ha ha. That's a good way to counter a point Mac. This has nothing to do with the UK.

[McLaren]

The UK atoning for what it did to Africa has nothing to to do with the UK?

[Soul Requiem]

The UK atoning for what it did to Africa has nothing to to do with the UK?

The protests have absolutely nothing to do with that at all, as you well know.

Any other time protest away but right now is just sheer stupidity.

[kwinigolfer]

No, you are racist so don't understand.

Ha ha. That's a good way to counter a point Mac. This has nothing to do with the UK.

And it's only partly to do with racism.

[super_realist]

The UK atoning for what it did to Africa has nothing to to do with the UK?

No Mac. That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the reasons behind this stupid protest.

[JAS]

Meanwhile...are we starting to see a divergence between Scottish numbers and UK numbers? The past 3 days have seen the Scottish deaths come in at 1,12 & 9 whereas the UK numbers have been circa 350ish each day. I would expect the UK figure (based on the population ratio + earlier stats) to be  10-15 times the Scottish one, I know its been slightly more that that at times over the piece but this week, on average Scottish deaths are running about 1/50th of UK ones. Similarly with new infection, the Scottish figure today is 49, proportionately the UK one should be around 500 to 750, however its been more than double that every day this week.

All very anecdotal but IF those differences are as a result of Scotland having had a slightly longer and tighter lockdown then we could be about to see the UK figure start to accelerate upwards when the beachcombers start falling sick.

On the other hand the statistical anomaly on infections could be explained by perhaps a proportionately higher volume of testing in England. I suppose the grim reality of the death stats will tell us over the coming weeks.

Total deaths are pretty much on parity for the population differences.
Those figures  from  Scotland are largely over the weekend, when the rest of the UK numbers were also low (less than 200 ish)
Thursdays are a better time to look at the numbers as weekend numbers have filtered through.

This is Thursday!! the Scottish numbers today were 9 deaths & 49 new infections, I didn't see the new infections number for Scotland Tues & Weds but the death count was 1 on Tues & 12 yesterday. The UK deaths this week have been 350ish per day, and new infections of around 1600 per day. Unless your arithmetic is really bad those figures are not in proportion to population (5.3m? to 67m?).

Even if you mean that the reporting lag is days different between Scotland and the UK (I don't think it is) it still doesn't close the gap. It does therefore look like a divergence may be emerging. If that divergence does become clear and established then it will vindicate Krankies decision to keep the lockdown tighter for longer and it will signal that we're in for trouble from the lockdown easing. On the other hand if it's just a temporary statistical blip and the new infection rate does come down more in England then the acceleration out of lockdown will gather pace.

[JAS]

The UK atoning for what it did to Africa has nothing to to do with the UK?

The protests have absolutely nothing to do with that at all, as you well know.

Any other time protest away but right now is just sheer stupidity.

He's going through his little red book of wind up statements today

[super_realist]

When I talked about parity I was talking about total deaths.

UK deaths in the last 5 days have been:
226
115
111
324
359

It's also worth noting that many of the death figures can often go back as far as two weeks they do not represent actual deaths in the last 24 hours at all in reality. The point to note is that deaths are rapidly decreasing in both Scotland and England (as well as NI)
It's worth noting that on several days NI have had no deaths.

[McLaren]

Jas

You have to remember that supers whole stance on covid relies on government policy having very little impact on deaths.  He cannot acknowledge that two countries as similar as Scotland and England would have different death rates when the government policies differ, which they now do.

[super_realist]

Jas

You have to remember that supers whole stance on covid relies on government policy having very little impact on deaths.  He cannot acknowledge that two countries as similar as Scotland and England would have different death rates when the government policies differ, which they now do.

You are being more obnoxious than usual today. I have never said it was insignificant, I have consistently stated it is not the only criteria for differing death rates. Ireland was later into lockdown than us and had earlier deaths, so why aren't they experiencing our death rates? Its because there are many more factors at work than JUST government policy.

Also, only yesterday you were stating that Sturgeon was as culpable as Johnson for her demonstrable failure  in covid deaths, so you can't have it both ways.

Besides in regards to the factors which affect spread and death Scotland and England could scarecely be more different.

[McLaren]

Super

Do you think anyone is struggling with your stating the f*ckin obvious point that "other factors" will have some say on a nations covid outcome? No, of course not.

Move on, join the rest of us who are asking the more interesting questions around how competently governments dealt with covid.

[super_realist]

You certainly seem to Mac. Everything you argue completely ignores other factors at play which might also be significant.

[JAS]

Super

Do you think anyone is struggling with your stating the f*ckin obvious point that "other factors" will have some say on a nations covid outcome? No, of course not.

Move on, join the rest of us who are asking the more interesting questions around how competently governments dealt with covid.

Lol, “move on” says the guy who says we should step back in time and apologise for the actions of our forebears from centuries ago, the irony in your posts today is quite remarkable :-p

[super_realist]

What do people make of this face covering thing? Given that there is no good evidence to support they provide any real protection, are they just an affectation and a token gesture to make it look like people unfortunate enough to have to use public transport are being protected?

For a government consistently saying they are following the science, why are they implementing something for which there is no good evidence that it is worthwhile?

I do find it funny when I see people wearing them outside and in their cars. What is the point?

[beninho]

I heard someone the the radio say that health professionals are split on the face mask issue. Though, its understandable on public transport, and surprised it wasn't implemented earlier.

I have one at work as do all my staff.

[Soul Requiem]

I heard someone the the radio say that health professionals are split on the face mask issue. Though, its understandable on public transport, and surprised it wasn't implemented earlier.

I have one at work as do all my staff.

They're mandatory in all shared offices at my work too and the studies into it suggest that the risk is reduced slightly but not by a huge amount, every little helps I suppose.

[beninho]

I read that the social distancing is the biggest reducer, but if that can't always be done, then the masks become the next best thing. Dealing with the homeless, and still seeing people, the fustancing us always hard to manage l, so the masks are needed as the back up.

Though we have hostels where its rife, and people being discharged from hospital positive with no where to go its easy to see how hotspots appear.

[Davie]

I thought it was pretty well agreed that masks can be useful to protect others from you - but not so much you from others. Better than nothing though

[super_realist]

I thought it was pretty well agreed that masks can be useful to protect others from you - but not so much you from others. Better than nothing though

Nah, the evidence is patchy at best.

[navyblueshorts]

Strange that those who rightly had a go at Cummings are oddly silent about the BLM protest in London which is putting a lot more people at risk. Is it because they aren't in the government?

Just had that exact debate (not on here) and your point is bang on regarding the apparent abandonment of social distancing whilst protesting, just like the press hounds clambering over each other breaking the rules to film a guy who broke the rules. Just waiting for the protestors to use the lame excuse of “well Cummings broke the rules” when the R rate starts ticking back up. For everybody else every life matters and causing an up tick in R rate is not in line with demonstrating that every life matters.

But that's the whole point re. what Cummings did...

That's rubbish and you know it, there were beach gatherings for instance before the Cummings incident came to light, it's just imbeciles using it as an excuse rather than a reason why they're being idiots.

No, I don't know it. The point re. Cummings is he was a central part of the message - and he trashed it. And you know it...

That's what you believe, idiots look for any excuse for their idiocy, the protests yesterday had nothing to do with Cummings driving up to Durham and you know it...

Agreed, but you're missing the point re. Cummings. Let's agree to disagree on that and move on.

[navyblueshorts]

Is it no longer illegal to throw missiles at police and punch them then?

Clapping essential workers on Thursday. "F*ck the police" on Wednesday. Unbelievable.

F*ck the police every day as far as I am concerned.

I have zero respect for you and that remark, I'm afraid.

[super_realist]

Is it no longer illegal to throw missiles at police and punch them then?

Clapping essential workers on Thursday. "F*ck the police" on Wednesday. Unbelievable.

F*ck the police every day as far as I am concerned.

I have zero respect for you and that remark, I'm afraid.

I think it was a hip hop reference. Mac's terrible humour at work.

[navyblueshorts]

What do people make of this face covering thing? Given that there is no good evidence to support they provide any real protection, are they just an affectation and a token gesture to make it look like people unfortunate enough to have to use public transport are being protected?

For a government consistently saying they are following the science, why are they implementing something for which there is no good evidence that it is worthwhile?

I do find it funny when I see people wearing them outside and in their cars. What is the point?

They don't protect you from someone spluttering. They do provide some protection for others from you if/when you're spluttering. Marginal, but measurable. SAGE have suggested it's worth doing. You know better?

[beninho]

Rralist is the expert on face marks, remember back in March when he laughed at people wearing them. Something about how stupid they were. Probably not a great view looking back.

[westisbest]

What do people make of this face covering thing? Given that there is no good evidence to support they provide any real protection, are they just an affectation and a token gesture to make it look like people unfortunate enough to have to use public transport are being protected?

For a government consistently saying they are following the science, why are they implementing something for which there is no good evidence that it is worthwhile?

I do find it funny when I see people wearing them outside and in their cars. What is the point?

Not a bad idea, when you think of the amount of people on the tube.

Ps. Nothing unfortunate about taking public transport. Still find that a very odd thing to say.

[super_realist]

It's unfortunate you have to share your journey with people who might be carrying it. Why wouldn't it be?

[super_realist]

Rralist is the expert on face marks, remember back in March when he laughed at people wearing them. Something about how stupid they were. Probably not a great view looking back.

Well they are, there's still no good evidence they are much benefit, especially outdoors and in your own car.

[super_realist]

What do people make of this face covering thing? Given that there is no good evidence to support they provide any real protection, are they just an affectation and a token gesture to make it look like people unfortunate enough to have to use public transport are being protected?

For a government consistently saying they are following the science, why are they implementing something for which there is no good evidence that it is worthwhile?

I do find it funny when I see people wearing them outside and in their cars. What is the point?

They don't protect you from someone spluttering. They do provide some protection for others from you if/when you're spluttering. Marginal, but measurable. SAGE have suggested it's worth doing. You know better?

Sage have also suggested it's not worth doing at times, so which one do you go for?
In any event, it's no reason to wear one outdoors as it's considered virtually impossible to catch it if you are social distancing and outdoors.

[JAS]

Re Masks...If its a marginal gain it's still a gain...think of the Brailsford theory of the aggregation of small gains Super.

I do think selfish people may struggle with the concept that wearing a mask is more about protecting others from you not protecting you from others.

[navyblueshorts]

What do people make of this face covering thing? Given that there is no good evidence to support they provide any real protection, are they just an affectation and a token gesture to make it look like people unfortunate enough to have to use public transport are being protected?

For a government consistently saying they are following the science, why are they implementing something for which there is no good evidence that it is worthwhile?

I do find it funny when I see people wearing them outside and in their cars. What is the point?

They don't protect you from someone spluttering. They do provide some protection for others from you if/when you're spluttering. Marginal, but measurable. SAGE have suggested it's worth doing. You know better?

Sage have also suggested it's not worth doing at times, so which one do you go for?
In any event, it's no reason to wear one outdoors as it's considered virtually impossible to catch it if you are social distancing and outdoors.

Probably true. Their use is complicated by other factors if people wear them. PPE is the last thing recommended for biosafety risk assessment, precisely because of other issues re. bad practice/habits amongst other things.

[super_realist]

I'd be concerned about it giving people a false sense of security which will outweigh any of these supposed "marginal" benefits.
It could potentially lead to people lowering their guard if they are under the false apprehension that it gives them decent protection.
Never underestimate how stupid the British public is, we've already seen that this week.

[JAS]

I'd be concerned about it giving people a false sense of security which will outweigh any of these supposed "marginal" benefits.
It could potentially lead to people lowering their guard if they are under the false apprehension that it gives them decent protection.
Never underestimate how stupid the British public is, we've already seen that this week.

Without wishing to make a cheap political point...We saw it in December as well :-p

On a more serious note, it's understandable to be concerned. The whole ethos of the Tories is to rule by stoking division and appealing to self interest. So for them to try and communicate that people need to do something for the common good, yes they might struggle to get their point across.

[super_realist]

More crackpot theories JAS.

[beninho]

Anyway, I'm playing golf this evening. I'm going to be terrible, but it will be nice to get out the house!

I also have a game assessment booked in next weekend. So that will be interesting. Not looking for miracles just an idea of what I'm doing very wrong.

[super_realist]

Be good to get back to lessons and driving range.

[westisbest]

It's unfortunate you have to share your journey with people who might be carrying it. Why wouldn't it be?

Yes true. But you seem to have an issue with people taking public transport period.
Always having a pop at Mac for taking the bus like that’s an issue.

[super_realist]

It's a long standing joke with Mac. I don't think there's anything wrong with public transport, but wouldn't want to rely on it myself.

[JAS]

More crackpot theories JAS.

I'm not seeing crackpot theories. You really think the Tories don't have a history of stoking division and appealing to self interest rather than the common good?? Ok...I can't wait to hear the evidence (because I know you like evidence based points) on that one.

[super_realist]

I think your tired old rhetoric gets you nowhere.
We know you don't like the Tories, but you dont seem to hold Labour responsible for us having a Tory government.
Labour had an open goal from six inches and it went out for a throw-in.
You should have equal disdain for them both.

Why don't you give us your best example of "stoking division"

[McLaren]

On the masks I assume the differences in whether it is beneficial to wear them comes from what outcomes you measure. In South East Asia they formed a major part of the anti covid strategy whereas in Europe we are convinced they don't work.

The UK experts I have heard say masks are useless focus a lot on lab tests measuring droplet formation, dispersion, viral particle spray etc with and without masks. Then extrapolate that without good numbers there masks are not worth it.

But you could also think about measuring the impact of masks on R0, comparing populations that wear them and those that don't (obviously isolating the masks effect).

It is like when clinical trials measure something like blood pressure decrease at x months instead of changes to death rates or quality of life.

If you measure just one particular effect instead of a more all encompassing one you might not get a good picture of whether something has a benefit on the outcome you actually care about.

[Soul Requiem]

More crackpot theories JAS.

I'm not seeing crackpot theories. You really think the Tories don't have a history of stoking division and appealing to self interest rather than the common good?? Ok...I can't wait to hear the evidence (because I know you like evidence based points) on that one.

Every political party does the same in different ways JAS, you see self interest in the Tories but I see opportunity, you see the common good, I see reliance on others, you end up going round and round in circles.

Conservatives- Billionaires telling the middle classes that the lower classes are the problem
Labour- Millionaires telling the lower classes that the Billionaires are the problem

[super_realist]

On the masks I assume the differences in whether it is beneficial to wear them comes from what outcomes you measure. In South East Asia they formed a major part of the anti covid strategy whereas in Europe we are convinced they don't work.

The UK experts I have heard say masks are useless focus a lot on lab tests measuring droplet formation, dispersion, viral particle spray etc with and without masks. Then extrapolate that without good numbers there masks are not worth it.

But you could also think about measuring the impact of masks on R0, comparing populations that wear them and those that don't (obviously isolating the masks effect).

It is like when clinical trials measure something like blood pressure decrease at x months instead of changes to death rates or quality of life.

If you measure just one particular effect instead of a more all encompassing one you might not get a good picture of whether something has a benefit on the outcome you actually care about .

The irony.

[JAS]

More crackpot theories JAS.

I'm not seeing crackpot theories. You really think the Tories don't have a history of stoking division and appealing to self interest rather than the common good?? Ok...I can't wait to hear the evidence (because I know you like evidence based points) on that one.

Every political party does the same in different ways JAS, you see self interest in the Tories but I see opportunity, you see the common good, I see reliance on others, you end up going round and round in circles.

Conservatives- Billionaires telling the middle classes that the lower classes are the problem
Labour- Millionaires telling the lower classes that the Billionaires are the problem

To be fair I do see both the converses that you mention too, yes, it's not unreasonable to say the Tories try to create opportunity. I also see that one of the biggest problems of the left and of the Labour party in particular is that they don't do enough to dispel the notion of supporting a dependency culture. Blair came close to connecting the the Labour party with the aspirational classes but then he blew it. His successors don't even seem to have tried, early days yet for Starmer but not holding out much hope. However even though I see both sides of the coin I also hold the view that we need a period of all working for the common good rather than creating opportunities for a greedy few to dance on the faces of the poor.

Super where do I start with examples of stoking division, I could go as far back as
1. The poll tax (piloted in Scotland and created a division which STILL to this day fuels the independence argument for some).
2. Dismantling and discrediting unions to the point where they have no power at all and therefore no ability to effectively use collective bargaining in wage negotiations, that sets worker agains worker.
3. "There is no such thing as Society" one of the most divisive and self interest promoting one liners EVER uttered by a politician.
4. Windrush - Need I say more
5. Immigration - Their immigration rhetoric means that immigrants are demonised by indigenous people, racially motivated attacks rise (this one is uniquely 2 faced because in public they play to peoples concerns about immigration saying how bad it is but in secret they like it because it keeps wages down).
6. Brexit - Probably thee most divisive proposal ever thrust on the people of this country

That is just a random potted sample from a huge menu

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