Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

I'm fine with immigration of people who bring value to the country in one way or another, who wouldn't be? What I'm not in favour of is people who bring nothing to the country in terms of skills, education, money etc. I wouldn't expect the many millions of useless Britons to be able to go the other way either just for balance.

What policy is has actively being engaged to stop people of a particular race unable to enter the country anyway? I've not seen any.

[incontinentia]

What do people think of all the ridiculous censuring going on in regards to TV programmes, songs etc?
I despise Swing Low Sweet Chariot but even putting it up for review is just absurdly stupid.

Some is justified but most is completely ridiculous. I was disgusted that Little Britain was "cancelled". There is talk of censuring Father Ted now, if that happens I will most definitely take to the streets.

Those in power are caving to the woke brigade without even assessing if its actually racist:steam:

[super_realist]

What do people think of all the ridiculous censuring going on in regards to TV programmes, songs etc?
I despise Swing Low Sweet Chariot but even putting it up for review is just absurdly stupid.

Pretty sick of it to be fair especially re comedy shows from years ago. Who the hell are this generation to judge any other generation?? This generation by and large have stood by and did nothing (Other than continue to vote for a status quo) whilst neoliberal governments have rode on the horseback of greed, generated ridiculous and unsustainable differences in inequality causing obscene amounts of poverty and homelessness. Now all of a sudden, whether through guilt triggered by a grotesque cop killing or fear generated by a pandemic some have developed a conscience and rather than raging at the here and now are all angry about history. They should give their heads a wobble and ask themselves why they never saw this coming.

It's the usual hypocrisy JAS, losing their heads over a few statues, but tuning in to watch two football teams owned by nations with awful human rights records whilst using their smart phone constructed using child labour and their cheap clothes made in a Bangladesh sweatshop.
I'm sure they aren't boycotting the things they use in daily life like Mercedes, BMW, Ford, VW, Hugo Boss, BASF, Bayer etc.

[beninho]

2013 the bbc edited fawlty towers, again, pretty fairly. This isn't new or something happening because of recent events.

But, i think its hard to argue removing those words, isn't probably a fair decision.

[super_realist]

2013 the bbc edited fawlty towers, again, pretty fairly. This isn't new or something happening because of recent events.

But, i think its hard to argue removing those words, isn't probably a fair decision.

I think that's fair enough, but removing the programme altogether is pretty pathetic. Can you imagine what life will be like in 20 years if this generation gets their way?

[Soul Requiem]

2013 the bbc edited fawlty towers, again, pretty fairly. This isn't new or something happening because of recent events.

But, i think its hard to argue removing those words, isn't probably a fair decision.

Are we going to censor almost every single Quentin Tarantino film? Context does matter and as John Cleese explained himself the humour came from the racist comments highlighting how out of touch Basil and the Major were. Media containing racism is not by extension a celebration of racism.

[JAS]

What do people think of all the ridiculous censuring going on in regards to TV programmes, songs etc?
I despise Swing Low Sweet Chariot but even putting it up for review is just absurdly stupid.

Pretty sick of it to be fair especially re comedy shows from years ago. Who the hell are this generation to judge any other generation?? This generation by and large have stood by and did nothing (Other than continue to vote for a status quo) whilst neoliberal governments have rode on the horseback of greed, generated ridiculous and unsustainable differences in inequality causing obscene amounts of poverty and homelessness. Now all of a sudden, whether through guilt triggered by a grotesque cop killing or fear generated by a pandemic some have developed a conscience and rather than raging at the here and now are all angry about history. They should give their heads a wobble and ask themselves why they never saw this coming.

It's the usual hypocrisy JAS, losing their heads over a few statues, but tuning in to watch two football teams owned by nations with awful human rights records whilst using their smart phone constructed using child labour and their cheap clothes made in a Bangladesh sweatshop.
I'm sure they aren't boycotting the things they use in daily life like Mercedes, BMW, Ford, VW, Hugo Boss, BASF, Bayer etc.

YES YES YES YES!! I don’t believe we’ve ever been in such close agreement, although we would probably disagree about how to deal with it politically :-p

[super_realist]

What do people think of all the ridiculous censuring going on in regards to TV programmes, songs etc?
I despise Swing Low Sweet Chariot but even putting it up for review is just absurdly stupid.

Pretty sick of it to be fair especially re comedy shows from years ago. Who the hell are this generation to judge any other generation?? This generation by and large have stood by and did nothing (Other than continue to vote for a status quo) whilst neoliberal governments have rode on the horseback of greed, generated ridiculous and unsustainable differences in inequality causing obscene amounts of poverty and homelessness. Now all of a sudden, whether through guilt triggered by a grotesque cop killing or fear generated by a pandemic some have developed a conscience and rather than raging at the here and now are all angry about history. They should give their heads a wobble and ask themselves why they never saw this coming.

It's the usual hypocrisy JAS, losing their heads over a few statues, but tuning in to watch two football teams owned by nations with awful human rights records whilst using their smart phone constructed using child labour and their cheap clothes made in a Bangladesh sweatshop.
I'm sure they aren't boycotting the things they use in daily life like Mercedes, BMW, Ford, VW, Hugo Boss, BASF, Bayer etc.

YES YES YES YES!! I don’t believe we’ve ever been in such close agreement, although we would probably disagree about how to deal with it politically :-p

,

I heard a really good monologue by Neil Oliver about it all. Predictably the SNP jumped on him and branded him a racist because he's not in favour of Independence. Basically, we should be adding to history, not taking away.
If you got rid of every single thing in the world that someone could find offence in, we would still be hunter gatherers, a bit like if the Climate Doomsday Cult were to get their way, they'd soon realise they can't survive without oil and gas.
The past is the past, no one needs to apologise for it, feel "guilt" over it. We didn't do it, and we bear no responsibility for it.

[beninho]

2013 the bbc edited fawlty towers, again, pretty fairly. This isn't new or something happening because of recent events.

But, i think its hard to argue removing those words, isn't probably a fair decision.

I think that's fair enough, but removing the programme altogether is pretty pathetic.  Can you imagine what life will be like in 20 years if this generation gets their way?

But its still available on dvd I guess, and I hope the edited version will be back on tv. Removing league of gentlemen due to papa lis crazy though.

[super_realist]

Presume so. The subtext though is basically that broadcasting companies are running scared of being called racist.

Presumably there will now be no more James Bond after Connery asked the black Caribbean fisherman Quarrel to "fetch his shoes" in Dr No.

I thought it was funny that tea companies were falling over themselves to say they support BLM when they have profited for centuries from being the colonial overlords of local populations in their tea plantations. I thought it was the Americans who didn't understand irony?

[beninho]

2013 the bbc edited fawlty towers, again, pretty fairly. This isn't new or something happening because of recent events.

But, i think its hard to argue removing those words, isn't probably a fair decision.

Are we going to censor almost every single Quentin Tarantino film? Context does matter and as John Cleese explained himself the humour came from the racist comments highlighting how out of touch Basil and the Major were. Media containing racism is not by extension a celebration of racism.

Films get censored all the time, songs get censored for radio. Beverly Hills Cop gets shown early evening with a massively censored version. I remember watching it as a kid, and then the full version. Vast difference he mofos like a boss in that film.

But, anyone can watch fawlty towers on dvd if they want.

[beninho]

Presume so. The subtext though is basically that broadcasting companies are running scared of being called racist.

Presumably there will now be no more James Bond after Connery asked the black Caribbean fisherman Quarrel to "fetch his shoes" in Dr No.

I thought it was funny that tea companies were falling over themselves to say they support BLM when they have profited for centuries from being the colonial overlords of local populations in their tea plantations. I thought it was the Americans who didn't understand irony?

Running scared or thinking about business? Remember when subway said they did halal food, people went mad, but why would you potentially cut off a chunk of your market? Same with Greg's and vegan sausage rolls all marketing, especially vegan things.

[super_realist]

Don't get me started on militant vegans Ben.

[incontinentia]

What about white women wearing makeup? Its not blackface per se, but it does darken the complexion and could potentially be considered intolerant. Fake tan?

[JAS]

What about white women wearing makeup? Its not blackface per se, but it does darken the complexion and could potentially be considered intolerant. Fake tan?

I know somebody with a fake tan, wouldn’t have an issue with him being sent to jail for it, mainly for being a childish twitter Muppet when supposed to be being a statesman but if he could be prosecuted for having a fake tan that would do. A bit like Capone going to the slammer for tax evasion :-p

[super_realist]

I'm not sure that's a fake tan and not Sunny Delight overconsumption

[beninho]

Don't get me started on militant vegans Ben.

But, its still a market that needs tapping into!

[navyblueshorts]

Super

Do you accept that it would be possible to take an action that is low risk but still not following government rules?

Of course he doesn't. As far as I can see, it still says:

People should continue to stay in their local area as much as possible and should not travel more than broadly five miles for leisure or recreation.

So, yes, it may not be illegal, but I'd suggest it's against the obvious spirit of what is meant. I'm not surprised - here in the UK, it appears to be assumed people will do what's best for others and that individual members of the public are better placed to decide what's right. What an idiotic assumption.

You are deliberately missing that I effectively have use of a second home, and from that address it would be absolutely ridiculous to suggest I couldn't take part in leisure activities whilst there just because it is more than five miles from my primary home.

I see cyclists on my Strava app who are doing up to 100 miles a day, Where's your fake indignation about them?

Strange also that you can't say in what way I am increasing the risk and its also obvious that you aren't looking at this from a point of view other than your own situation. Try living on your own for 12 weeks and then condemn me.

I don't know about them, but now you mention it, they're morons. Self-entitled morons.

It's not about me saying you're definitively increasing risk; it's about you doing what you're supposed to. It's about behaviours of people influencing that of others. Thought you were wise enough to understand that. Accept that you're probably thinking "If it's OK for Cummings, it's OK for me", as many others no doubt are.

[navyblueshorts]

I can admit I bent the rules a bit, but I only played two rounds you pedant.
For Navy to say this precludes me criticising the ridiculously irresponsible protests in London and elsewhere is absolutely laughable.

Ah. Sorry. One rule for you, one for others. Get it now.

[navyblueshorts]

What do people think of all the ridiculous censuring going on in regards to TV programmes, songs etc?
I despise Swing Low Sweet Chariot but even putting it up for review is just absurdly stupid.

Pretty sick of it to be fair especially re comedy shows from years ago. Who the hell are this generation to judge any other generation?? This generation by and large have stood by and did nothing (Other than continue to vote for a status quo) whilst neoliberal governments have rode on the horseback of greed, generated ridiculous and unsustainable differences in inequality causing obscene amounts of poverty and homelessness. Now all of a sudden, whether through guilt triggered by a grotesque cop killing or fear generated by a pandemic some have developed a conscience and rather than raging at the here and now are all angry about history. They should give their heads a wobble and ask themselves why they never saw this coming.

It's the usual hypocrisy JAS, losing their heads over a few statues, but tuning in to watch two football teams owned by nations with awful human rights records whilst using their smart phone constructed using child labour and their cheap clothes made in a Bangladesh sweatshop.
I'm sure they aren't boycotting the things they use in daily life like Mercedes, BMW, Ford, VW, Hugo Boss, BASF, Bayer etc.

Finest whataboutery. BLM is one issue; deal with it. There's time for wider consideration about those things you mention in the future and as an ongoing discussion. Not sure what you're implying re. all the German companies mentioned. Well, think I do, but perhaps you could clarify?

[super_realist]

Not whataboutery at all, just pointing out the rank hypocrisy of the protestors who only seem to care about one issue. If you're being consistent about the role of slavery, then they should be standing up against anything with a suspect past, which includes those German companies who were either started by the Nazi party in the case of VW, or used forced labour from concentration camps like BMW and Daimler, or in the case of Ford, started by a man who was an Anti Semite and a Nazi supporter, but strangely, I'm sure they don't bother going into those things.

[super_realist]

I can admit I bent the rules a bit, but I only played two rounds you pedant.
For Navy to say this precludes me criticising the ridiculously irresponsible protests in London and elsewhere is absolutely laughable.

Ah. Sorry. One rule for you, one for others. Get it now.

Not at all, those protests broke the rules on size and lack of social distancing. I couldn't possibly have a problem with the protest were it to adhere to being socially distanced, but it wasn't.
I met one person, who I was never closer than 2m to. If you can't see the obvious difference and how they aren't remotely comparable then you're as one eyed as Mac is.

[superflyweight]

Not whataboutery at all, just pointing out the rank hypocrisy of the protestors who only seem to care about one issue. If you're being consistent about the role of slavery, then they should be standing up against anything with a suspect past, which includes those German companies who were either started by the Nazi party in the case of VW, or used forced labour from concentration camps like BMW and Daimler, or in the case of Ford, started by a man who was an Anti Semite and a Nazi supporter, but strangely, I'm sure they don't bother going into those things.

But that's exaggerating what is happening.  Questioning the appropriateness of having statues which celebrate individuals who were involved in and supported the slave trade is not looking to wipe out the history of anything which might have a suspect past.  Nor, within certain boundaries, is looking at tv programs and films (and other material) and questioning whether the material is still appropriate without at least some contextual explanation.  If we don't do that, then films like Birth of a Nation could be taught as landmarks of cinema without caveat.  

If any of those organisations you mentioned had statues of Hitler outside their corporate headquarters or if their corporate logo was a Swastika then we would be able to draw an equivalence.

[super_realist]

Who needs contextual explanation or a caveat? Do you really think people are so stupid they can't work it out for themselves?
Banning these things just in case some flake gets offended or some oaf calls them racist is just ridiculous.

The viewer should be the one determining what is appropriate to watch, not a flash mob.

THe point is that these protestors are just fine with the forced labour and support of concentration camps to build the companies that make their transportation, the use of child labour to build their smartphones and to make their cheap clothes, but for some reason, they're focussing on a bloody statue or a TV programme, it's bonkers. You can't be taken seriously if you accept other forms of current and historical slavery in every aspect of your life, but reject only one which is currently trendy.

Most people are simply not so petty and professionally offended that they can't just get on with their life without pretending to be offended.

[superflyweight]

Who needs contextual explanation or a caveat? Do you really think people are so stupid they can't work it out for themselves?
Banning these things just in case some flake gets offended or some oaf calls them racist is just ridiculous.

The viewer should be the one determining what is appropriate to watch, not a flash mob.

THe point is that these protestors are just fine with the forced labour and support of concentration camps to build the companies that make their transportation, the use of child labour to build their smartphones and to make their cheap clothes, but for some reason, they're focussing on a bloody statue or a TV programme, it's bonkers. You can't be taken seriously if you accept other forms of current and historical slavery in every aspect of your life, but reject only one which is currently trendy.

Most people are simply not so petty and professionally offended that they can't just get on with their life without pretending to be offended.

Children
People with no understanding of the historical context
Idiots
Morons
Etc...

[super_realist]

Sounds like the weak sort of argument that people need warnings about what foods and habits are bad for you.

Do you really think people like children aren't taught about inclusivity etc at school and don't take their learnings from obscure and very old TV programmes?

[JuliusHMarx]

Let's say there are 1000 injustices. I complain about 10 of them, as I decide not to devote my entire life to all 1000 of them. Am I a hypocrite for not complaining about the other 990? More to the point, is it better to complain about none (and thus not try to effect change, but at least be considered a hypocrite) or about 10?

Oh, and yes, people are that stupid. Lots and lots of people are that stupid. It's how we end up with a lot of racists in the first place (and yes, I know not all racists are stupid.)

[super_realist]

You should at least be consistent in your beliefs. Of course there are loads of injustices and you can't possibly address all of them, but don't you think boycotting a company that employs slave labour to make a smartphone or electric car batteries is far more pressing than getting a statue torn down? Don't you think boycotting a firm which condoned and actively used forced labour from concentration camps rather than taking down a TV programme down is more important? Surely you'd realise that their priorities appear to be rather off target.

[superflyweight]

But it's not just the physical act of taking down the statue or the application of historical context to a TV program itself, it's the cultural shift that those acts represent which are important.  

You mentioned earlier that you worried about what the future would look like if this generation got their way.  Putting to one side that it is a classic line from what is essentially an old man shouting at a cloud, my guess is that the next generation will bring about greater inclusivity in the same way that our generation brought about greater inclusivity than our parent's generation.  

It is the way of the world and the secret is not to be too much of a Pantomine Dame about it all.

[JuliusHMarx]

There wasn't a great deal of pressure to remove any TV programmes - that was not the focus of any protest, it was the TV companies either trying to do what they considered right, or trying to be seen to do what they thought others would think is right. Then counter-protesters pick up on it in a smoke and mirrors attempt to say 'See how silly these protests are, there's no need to address racism, let's leave things as they are, they are perfectly fine'.

For smartphones, are you referring to slave labour or child labour? I'm not sure of any evidence for the former, and it is quite sketchy about the latter - it is more of an assumption (probably true), based on cobalt mining, but it's not easy to differentiate between which manufacturers are more guilty than others. Also, it is in a different country (unlike the statues), so the chances of effecting change are hugely reduced and it is unclear how it could be done without the cooperation of international governments and bodies.
Statues have great symbolism and some celebrate - currently celebrate - slave owners. The symbolism of removing them can have far-reaching societal change.
What would be the purpose of boycotting a company that used concentration camps 80 years ago? What change would you hope to bring about by doing that?

[super_realist]

Child labour is effectively slave labour. THey have no choice to work.

I've no problem with someone protesting a statue, but it should be way down the list of things that are important in comparison to the number of other injustices going on in places like Hong Kong, China etc

It's interesting you mention it being another country, as if that matters. Germany is another country, but these same people are more than happy to buy the products of companies that supported the Nazi regime, especially ironic when you consider there are plenty other options to choose from.
George Floyd wasn't in this country, nor was the problem of police brutality, but that didn't stop them protesting about it here as if it was happening here, so I don't buy your geographical issue. I even heard a moron on tv claim she was more worried about dying from Police brutality in the UK then she was about spreading Covid, absolute plank.

You asked what the point in boycotting a company that supported concentration camp 80 years ago, I could ask the same about a bloody statue. Hardly something worthy of top billing in the rent a mob protest world is it?

I actually think it's stupid to boycott anything on the basis of it's historical past, I just wish the protestors had a better grasp of what things actually matter, and for the vast majority of people who claim to be offended by Rhodes, Dundas or whoever, how much were they offended prior to three weeks ago? Not at all, so their rage is entirely synthetic. What happens when you get "offended" anyway? Nothing.

[McLaren]

Not whataboutery at all, just pointing out the rank hypocrisy of the protestors who only seem to care about one issue. If you're being consistent about the role of slavery, then they should be standing up against anything with a suspect past, which includes those German companies who were either started by the Nazi party in the case of VW, or used forced labour from concentration camps like BMW and Daimler, or in the case of Ford, started by a man who was an Anti Semite and a Nazi supporter, but strangely, I'm sure they don't bother going into those things.

Remember when I asked you if you were a #alllivesmatter guy, the above post along with a few others confirms you are. BLM is a targeted campaign, like almost every protest movement.

[JuliusHMarx]

Do you really think people are so stupid they can't work it out for themselves?

I even heard a moron on tv claim she was more worried about dying from Police brutality in the UK then she was about spreading Covid

Contrasting opinions there - on various groups of people perhaps?

If a person is this country has been the victim of institutional or societal racism their whole lives, you don't think they are going to be more concerned with eradicating racism in Britain, than boycotting VW or cobalt mining in DRC? You don't think they see that racism mirrored in the case of George Floyd? You wouldn't support them? Because you think they should be spending their whole lives protesting against every evil in the world, not just the one that affects them on a day-to-day level? That's pretty callous.

Also, you seem to missing the point about statues - they are symbols that celebrate, today, slave owners. BASF don't celebrate concentration camps. Obviously no-one is saying removing statues is all that needs to be done - it's simply part of the process and one that can be done quickly and symbolically, without yet another long government review, followed by little action. Most of the protesters are more aware of what matters than you or I are - and they are more aware of how little power they have over them.

People are now more aware that these statues exist, hence there is more anger towards them - and in some cases people have been trying to get them removed for years. To claim it is synthetic anger is adding to the problem, not helping it. There's a problem with racism in this country. I would hope you want to at least support those trying to do something about it, rather than standing against them.

[JuliusHMarx]

Not whataboutery at all, just pointing out the rank hypocrisy of the protestors who only seem to care about one issue. If you're being consistent about the role of slavery, then they should be standing up against anything with a suspect past, which includes those German companies who were either started by the Nazi party in the case of VW, or used forced labour from concentration camps like BMW and Daimler, or in the case of Ford, started by a man who was an Anti Semite and a Nazi supporter, but strangely, I'm sure they don't bother going into those things.

Remember when I asked you if you were a #alllivesmatter guy, the above post along with a few others confirms you are.

I don't think he's too keen on the hypocrites and morons though.

[beninho]

I think a white (assumption) middle class Scotsmen should definitely go for a chat with a BLM protestor and tell them what they should be protesting, and that there are more things in life then the racism or injustice they feel.

[McLaren]

Julius

I don't know how often you frequent the golf boards, but if I told you Super's least favorite sportspeople are Tiger Woods, Lewis Hamilton, Raheem Sterling and Serena Williams would you be surprised? (or if not least favorite the ones he spends the most time bad mouthing)

[beninho]

While its good to have realist back from his absence, its also good to see someone tearing his bumhole like a dodgy pawn video.

[JuliusHMarx]

Julius

I don't know how often you frequent the golf boards, but if I told you Super's least favorite sportspeople are Tiger Woods, Lewis Hamilton, Raheem Sterling and Serena Williams would you be surprised?  (or if not least favorite the ones he spends the most time bad mouthing)

I only know him from the off-topic section. I used to watch all the golf majors and Ryder cup religiously back in the 1980s and 90s, but less so these days, so can't really talk knowledgeably on the current game.

[dynamark]

Neither can we and we go on about it all the time.

[westisbest]

Do you really think people are so stupid they can't work it out for themselves?

I even heard a moron on tv claim she was more worried about dying from Police brutality in the UK then she was about spreading Covid

Contrasting opinions there  - on various groups of people perhaps?

If a person is this country has been the victim of institutional or societal racism their whole lives, you don't think they are going to be more concerned with eradicating racism in Britain, than boycotting VW or cobalt mining in DRC? You don't think they see that racism mirrored in the case of George Floyd? You wouldn't support them? Because you think they should be spending their whole lives protesting against every evil in the world, not just the one that affects them on a day-to-day level? That's pretty callous.

Also, you seem to missing the point about statues - they are symbols that celebrate, today, slave owners. BASF don't celebrate concentration camps. Obviously no-one is saying removing statues is all that needs to be done - it's simply part of the process and one that can be done quickly and symbolically, without yet another long government review, followed by little action. Most of the protesters are more aware of what matters than you or I are - and they are more aware of how little power they have over them.

People are now more aware that these statues exist, hence there is more anger towards them - and in some cases people have been trying to get them removed for years. To claim it is synthetic anger is adding to the problem, not helping it. There's a problem with racism in this country. I would hope you want to at least support those trying to do something about it, rather than standing against them.

Very good post

[incontinentia]

...so can't really talk knowledgeably on the current game.

That doesn't stop any of us . Come join us, the golf board could do with extra contributors[/quote]

[navyblueshorts]

Who needs contextual explanation or a caveat? Do you really think people are so stupid they can't work it out for themselves?
Banning these things just in case some flake gets offended or some oaf calls them racist is just ridiculous.

The viewer should be the one determining what is appropriate to watch, not a flash mob.

THe point is that these protestors are just fine with the forced labour and support of concentration camps to build the companies that make their transportation, the use of child labour to build their smartphones and to make their cheap clothes, but for some reason, they're focussing on a bloody statue or a TV programme, it's bonkers. You can't be taken seriously if you accept other forms of current and historical slavery in every aspect of your life, but reject only one which is currently trendy.

Most people are simply not so petty and professionally offended that they can't just get on with their life without pretending to be offended.

Aside from what superfly etc already said re. VW etc, you're assuming that Germany, more widely, and those companies, specifically, either haven't apologised and/or haven't done anything re. reparations. I can't be bothered to check, but I suspect they have.

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