The Covid-19 serious chat thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

Self-isolating, social distancing, locked down thread split.

[LondonTiger]

The defence of the Home Secretary by her party is however however pretty similar to the defence of Corbyn's Shadow Home Secretary, in that those who criticise are accused of racism and misogyny.

Neither Priti Patel, nor Diane Abbott deserve a free ride due to their gender or race, not should their critics be instantly accused. This is not happening here, but does happen far too often outside of our 606 bubble.

What irks me is:
1) The suggestion the report was watered down to enable AB de Pfeffel some wiggle room.
2) The claim she was unaware of the impact of her behaviour when there had been previous complaints in her previous ministries and a well documented report from the Summer of 2019.

By all accounts Rutnam was your typical Whitehall Mandarin and I fully believe that his behviour towards Patel was likely to be pretty condescending. It is her behaviour towards other members of teh department that worries me, plus the impression given that pretty much all the ministers are safe from any consequences of their behaviour. In close to any other Govt, the behaviour of Patel, Williamson, Jenrick (and of course ABdPJ) would have prevented them ever holding office again.

[LondonTiger]

Any way - vaccines, what is your view on the roll out and whether you will have one?

For me so long as these are signed off by the regulatory bodies I will partake. While worried that they may be pushed through for political gain, that seems not to be the case and I do believe we should all accept the responsibilty.

[BamBam]

I'd certainly take the vaccine. As seen by the statement from Qantas today, I think its going to be very difficult to travel, enter sports stadiums etc without proof of vaccination in future.

[Duty281]

Any way - vaccines, what is your view on the roll out and whether you will have one?

For me so long as these are signed off by the regulatory bodies I will partake. While worried that they may be pushed through for political gain, that seems not to be the case and I do believe we should all accept the responsibilty.

Would rather take my chances with Covid than a rushed vaccine, personally.

[Soul Requiem]

Risk of death for those close to me or some unknown side effects? Hmmmm yes i'll go with the former.

[GSC]

I think the rushed thing isn't that notable when you consider the timescale for a regular vaccine likely includes many attempts to get someone to pay for it and addressing lesser threats. Whereas here the vaccines have near limitless funding and have shut down the world.

[LondonTiger]

Any vaccine will only be rolled out once approved. I am willing to accept that the regulatory body in the UK will not do as some have in the past (Boeing AirMax) and will apply their normal rigour. Personally I would prefer to take the Astra Zeneca one as they have expressly stated they will not make a profit from this over Pfizer who will be (I believe).

[navyblueshorts]

I'd certainly take the vaccine. As seen by the statement from Qantas today, I think its going to be very difficult to travel, enter sports stadiums etc without proof of vaccination in future.

This is what needs to happen. Some sort of record of vaccination with travel for holidays, dining out, attending sports events etc etc being dependent on proof of that.

[king_carlos]

As I'm fortunate enough to not be high risk I will be fairly low down the priority list for the vaccine in Scotland. Given I run a coffee shop where I'm handling food and drinks that customers receive on a daily basis I will take the vaccine when available to me though.

My parents are both higher risk and plan to take it as early as the roll out allows.

I'd agree with LT that I'd rather take the Astra Zeneca vaccine due to their pledge to distribute their vaccine at cost price during the course of the pandemic. Those being pedantic can argue that 'the course of the pandemic' is intentionally vague and up for debate but you can't argue that their decision to effectively make no profit from initial orders already placed by governments around the world has caused their share price to fall by nearly 4%, representing close to a $4bn drop in the company's value.

[navyblueshorts]

Any way - vaccines, what is your view on the roll out and whether you will have one?

For me so long as these are signed off by the regulatory bodies I will partake. While worried that they may be pushed through for political gain, that seems not to be the case and I do believe we should all accept the responsibilty.

Would rather take my chances with Covid than a rushed vaccine, personally.

It's not rushed. The tech is well-established, especially that for the so-called 'Oxford-Astra' one. What's happening is the result of the priority given to vaccines against Covid.

[navyblueshorts]

As I'm fortunate enough to not be high risk I will be fairly low down the priority list for the vaccine in Scotland. Given I run a coffee shop where I'm handling food and drinks that customers receive on a daily basis I will take the vaccine when available to me though.

My parents are both higher risk and plan to take it as early as the roll out allows.

I'd agree with LT that I'd rather take the Astra Zeneca vaccine due to their pledge to distribute their vaccine at cost price during the course of the pandemic. Those being pedantic can argue that 'the course of the pandemic' is intentionally vague and up for debate but you can't argue that their decision to effectively make no profit from initial orders already placed by governments around the world has caused their share price to fall by nearly 4%, representing close to a $4bn drop in the company's value.

Says a lot about the World, that, doesn't it?

[Duty281]

AstraZeneca's share price is still bigger than this time last year. Anyway, the main reason for the slump recently wasn't due to AZ's zero-profit stance, but because the headline figure of efficacy for their vaccine was 70% - compared to 95% for Moderna and Pfizer.

[JDizzle]

I think the rushed thing isn't that notable when you consider the timescale for a regular vaccine likely includes many attempts to get someone to pay for it and addressing lesser threats. Whereas here the vaccines have near limitless funding and have shut down the world.

Pretty much exactly this. Most vaccines have to be extra careful before moving on to the next stage as they need to secure the funding and be sure it works, as it is probably getting shelved if it doesn't. No such worries with Covid vaccines.

I will get the vaccine if offered it, albeit I am low down the priority list. Not sure why people don't trust a vaccine and it's side effects but will happily take their chances with a virus that has only been around 12 months and what that will do to your long term health.

[navyblueshorts]

Five days for get togethers over Christmas? Good grief...

[Duty281]

AstraZeneca's share price is still bigger than this time last year. Anyway, the main reason for the slump recently wasn't due to AZ's zero-profit stance, but because the headline figure of efficacy for their vaccine was 70% - compared to 95% for Moderna and Pfizer.

https://www.ft.com/content/4583fbf8-b47c-4e78-8253-22efcfa4903a

And it'll fall even more after this.

[Scottrf]

Go into lockdown tier 1, rates fall, come 'out' tier 3. FFS.

[navyblueshorts]

AstraZeneca's share price is still bigger than this time last year. Anyway, the main reason for the slump recently wasn't due to AZ's zero-profit stance, but because the headline figure of efficacy for their vaccine was 70% - compared to 95% for Moderna and Pfizer.

https://www.ft.com/content/4583fbf8-b47c-4e78-8253-22efcfa4903a

And it'll fall even more after this.

Sadly, can't access that. Presume it'll find its way into other media...

[navyblueshorts]

Go into lockdown tier 1, rates fall, come 'out' tier 3. FFS.

Now, that does appear a little....random.

[Duty281]

Go into lockdown tier 1, rates fall, come 'out' tier 3. FFS.

"Before the Circuit Breaker was introduced 24 million people were in a Tier 2 area and 8.6 million were in a Tier 3 area. After the Circuit Breaker 32.2 million are in a Tier 2 area and 23.3 million are in a Tier 3 area."

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1331983919047127041

[Duty281]

AstraZeneca's share price is still bigger than this time last year. Anyway, the main reason for the slump recently wasn't due to AZ's zero-profit stance, but because the headline figure of efficacy for their vaccine was 70% - compared to 95% for Moderna and Pfizer.

https://www.ft.com/content/4583fbf8-b47c-4e78-8253-22efcfa4903a

And it'll fall even more after this.

Sadly, can't access that. Presume it'll find its way into other media...

Similarly reported here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/26/scrutiny-grows-over-oxford-universityastrazeneca-vaccine

[BamBam]

Well the first vaccine has been approved this morning, with Pfizer set to begin delivering in the UK as soon as next week.

Thoughts on this? It seems very quick to have gone from the news about efficacy a couple of weeks ago to roll out, but I'm not in any way an expert

[LondonTiger]

Well the first vaccine has been approved this morning, with Pfizer set to begin delivering in the UK as soon as next week.

Thoughts on this? It seems very quick to have gone from the news about efficacy a couple of weeks ago to roll out, but I'm not in any way an expert

Via 6 degrees of separation, the husband of teh friend of my mother (ok 4 degrees) is a VP of an AMerican Drug company, having previously worked for NICE. The feedback from him is that the UK regulatory body is very firm, but everyone has been working like crazy to get these drugs certified. Pfizer are, apparently, very well set up to push drugs through the processes (well they do want to give us all erectios!) so we shoudl not be surprised this has been quick. I hope th eModerna one is certified soon.

[BamBam]

That makes sense, with almost limitless resources and all the will in the world behind it I guess I shouldn't be surprised at how quickly things can get done!

[navyblueshorts]

Well the first vaccine has been approved this morning, with Pfizer set to begin delivering in the UK as soon as next week.

Thoughts on this? It seems very quick to have gone from the news about efficacy a couple of weeks ago to roll out, but I'm not in any way an expert

Via 6 degrees of separation, the husband of teh friend of my mother (ok 4 degrees) is a VP of an AMerican Drug company, having previously worked for NICE. The feedback from him is that the UK regulatory body is very firm, but everyone has been working like crazy to get these drugs certified. Pfizer are, apparently, very well set up to push drugs through the processes (well they do want to give us all erectios!) so we shoudl not be surprised this has been quick. I hope th eModerna one is certified soon.

Agreed. This is the result of absolute priority within Pfizer etc on Covid vaccine development, testing and getting data to the regulatory bodies. Wouldn't be surprised if almost every other project got a 'stop that; do this' kind of instruction ~10 months back. The tech, FWIW, is pretty straight forward if you know anything about cloning. What's probably taken most of the time is the Phase 1/2/3 trials to come through. Suspect MHRA have been waiting for this data and have also prioritised vetting it, without pre-judging etc.

Good news.

[guildfordbat]

Well the first vaccine has been approved this morning, with Pfizer set to begin delivering in the UK as soon as next week.

Thoughts on this? It seems very quick to have gone from the news about efficacy a couple of weeks ago to roll out, but I'm not in any way an expert

Hi BamBam - It seems very quick to me as well although I'm definitely no expert either. Just a few initial thoughts and queries.

1. Whitty & co regularly seem to make comments along the lines of, ''there's so much about this virus we don't know''. Indeed, Hancock said today that it was not known if people could get it twice. It does seem odd that we can have a vaccine for something we still don't properly understand.

2. My main concern would be the possibility of there being any impact on pregnancy; either having the vaccine when pregnant or becoming pregnant years afterwards. How can we know now at this early stage that everything will be fine years down the line? I appreciate such ladies won't be near the top of the priority list but their time should come.

3. As I understand it, this vaccine has been approved by the UK regulator for use in the UK. What happens if a foreign regulator disapproves the vaccine for use in their country? I would guess our regulator would want to check why with consequent delays.

Btw, Johnson's spokeswoman was asked today if he would take an early test so as to encourage others. In attempting to try and say he was very keen but wouldn't want to jump the queue, she said, ''We all know what sort of person he is''. She can certainly say that again.

[Duty281]

So the 40million doses of the vaccine ordered will be enough to vaccinate healthcare workers and everyone aged 60 or over. Everyone 50 and over is planned to be vaccinated in 'phase one' - which could take until April, unless the Oxford vaccine is also approved which would speed up the process all the more.

Immunisation could begin as early as Monday, which is certainly lightning-quick, especially compared to EU countries who may be waiting until the New Year and beyond (Italy may be as late as February).

I suppose if this works as intended and the side-effects are minimal, the economic recovery of the UK can begin all the quicker.

An IPSOS survey found that 21% of UK people will refuse a jab, compared to 30% in Germany, 35% in Italy, 36% in Spain and 46% in France (where apparently general anti-vax sentiment is on the rise).

[BamBam]

Found out why we approved it so quickly lads, it all makes sense now

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/status/1334418762909487106?s=20

[lostinwales]

Found out why we approved it so quickly lads, it all makes sense now

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/status/1334418762909487106?s=20

Amazing. There were a whole bunch of near identical tweets from the usual Tory MP's and associated nutters claiming we got it approved faster because of Brexit, before it was pointed out that we are still in the EU regulatory system (just)  and it was a choice that any EU country could have made, they just chose to take a little longer before making it. There is also the issue of shipping vaccines into the UK from Belgium before the predicted Brexit chaos kicks in in another 4 weeks given it has to be transported at -80C.

Still, this privately funded program lead by German and Turkish scientists  has been a massive success for Britain (or the USA according to Trump)

Our government is much happier to treat the whole population as guinea pigs.

[Pr4wn]

Amazing, isn't it? Tweets yesterday from Rees-Mogg, Sharma, Raab all claiming that we were able to approve so quickly because of Brexit. All complete lies.

[Samo]

Amazing, isn't it? Tweets yesterday from Rees-Mogg, Sharma, Raab all claiming that we were able to approve so quickly because of Brexit. All complete lies.

Atleast their previous fictional Brexit benefits werent as incredibly barefaced. The Frak brass neck on them

[navyblueshorts]

Well the first vaccine has been approved this morning, with Pfizer set to begin delivering in the UK as soon as next week.

Thoughts on this? It seems very quick to have gone from the news about efficacy a couple of weeks ago to roll out, but I'm not in any way an expert

Hi BamBam - It seems very quick to me as well although I'm definitely no expert either. Just a few initial thoughts and queries.

1. Whitty & co regularly seem to make comments along the lines of, ''there's so much about this virus we don't know''. Indeed, Hancock said today that it was not known if people could get it twice. It does seem odd that we can have a vaccine for something we still don't properly understand.

Not really. The tech is straightforward i.e. expose human immune system to something that is 'non-self', in this case, bits of SARS-CoV-2. Immune system then does the clever bit and protects us. No, we don't fully understand all about this virus, but we know a lot about the adaptive immune response in humans.

2. My main concern would be the possibility of there being any impact on pregnancy; either having the vaccine when pregnant or becoming pregnant years afterwards. How can we know now at this early stage that everything will be fine years down the line? I appreciate such ladies won't be near the top of the priority list but their time should come.

An issue to be sure. No, these vaccines aren't cleared for pregnant women, but there's no reason to think they're unsafe. In addition, there will have been those in the trials who were either unknowingly pregnant, got pregnant on the trials of thereafter. They'll be followed up for a long time to ensure there are no issues. Bottom line is that most existing vaccines aren't a significant risk, afaik, for pregnant women. Understandable if those have some qualms, however.

3. As I understand it, this vaccine has been approved by the UK regulator for use in the UK. What happens if a foreign regulator disapproves the vaccine for use in their country? I would guess our regulator would want to check why with consequent delays.

UK MHRA is top notch and independent. UK pharmaceutical research etc is at least 100 years old and the MHRA is therefore one of, if not, the best in the World at this. Doubt what you suggest will happen, but if it does, MHRA will look at new data/reasons etc. Happens w/ all new and existing medications i.e. if something changes, checks are made. Some drugs that get approved, subsequently have approval withdrawn due to initially unknown side effects. It happens. It's medicine.

[navyblueshorts]

Found out why we approved it so quickly lads, it all makes sense now

https://twitter.com/rachaelvenables/status/1334418762909487106?s=20

Well, it's been clear for a long time that a) he's an idiot and b) that he's been massively over-promoted.

[navyblueshorts]

Amazing, isn't it? Tweets yesterday from Rees-Mogg, Sharma, Raab all claiming that we were able to approve so quickly because of Brexit. All complete lies.

Indeed. There really is no start to their intellect, is there?

[Duty281]

Whilst the regulation/law point from Hancock yesterday was nonsense, it is correct to say that leaving the EU* has likely, but not definitely, expedited the vaccine rollout in the United Kingdom.

This is because the European Commission has pushed for the vaccine to be available to all member states at the same time once authorised at EU level - a 'move as one' strategy, if you like. While this is not legally binding, if the UK were still members of the EU then they would be pressured in adhering to this timetable.

*Which the UK has done in name-only, so far.

[lostinwales]

Whilst the regulation/law point from Hancock yesterday was nonsense, it is correct to say that leaving the EU* has likely, but not definitely, expedited the vaccine rollout in the United Kingdom.

This is because the European Commission has pushed for the vaccine to be available to all member states at the same time once authorised at EU level - a 'move as one' strategy, if you like. While this is not legally binding, if the UK were still members of the EU then they would be pressured in adhering to this timetable.

*Which the UK has done in name-only, so far.

Maybe it is semantics but I'd still class this as 'consequences' instead of 'benefit' of Brexit, even if the end results are beneficial.

[Pr4wn]

Whilst the regulation/law point from Hancock yesterday was nonsense, it is correct to say that leaving the EU* has likely, but not definitely, expedited the vaccine rollout in the United Kingdom.

This is because the European Commission has pushed for the vaccine to be available to all member states at the same time once authorised at EU level - a 'move as one' strategy, if you like. While this is not legally binding, if the UK were still members of the EU then they would be pressured in adhering to this timetable.

*Which the UK has done in name-only, so far.

This is not what they said. They said that it was approved so quickly because we have left the EU. This is a lie.

[Duty281]

Whilst the regulation/law point from Hancock yesterday was nonsense, it is correct to say that leaving the EU* has likely, but not definitely, expedited the vaccine rollout in the United Kingdom.

This is because the European Commission has pushed for the vaccine to be available to all member states at the same time once authorised at EU level - a 'move as one' strategy, if you like. While this is not legally binding, if the UK were still members of the EU then they would be pressured in adhering to this timetable.

*Which the UK has done in name-only, so far.

This is not what they said. They said that it was approved so quickly because we have left the EU. This is a lie.

As stated, I believe that what Hancock said was nonsense (and if Rees-Mogg, Sharma etc. tweeted similar then that's also nonsense).

I was making a separate point as to why the UK leaving the EU may have meant that vaccine deployment is set to be quicker here than it is on the continent.

[Pr4wn]

Whilst the regulation/law point from Hancock yesterday was nonsense, it is correct to say that leaving the EU* has likely, but not definitely, expedited the vaccine rollout in the United Kingdom.

This is because the European Commission has pushed for the vaccine to be available to all member states at the same time once authorised at EU level - a 'move as one' strategy, if you like. While this is not legally binding, if the UK were still members of the EU then they would be pressured in adhering to this timetable.

*Which the UK has done in name-only, so far.

This is not what they said. They said that it was approved so quickly because we have left the EU. This is a lie.

As stated, I believe that what Hancock said was nonsense (and if Rees-Mogg, Sharma etc. tweeted similar then that's also nonsense).

I was making a separate point as to why the UK leaving the EU may have meant that vaccine deployment is set to be quicker here than it is on the continent.

Which might not necessarily be a good thing, hence their regulatory body taking a bit longer to approve it.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Well, not said anything for a while, but it appears we have a new strain of the virus in and around London. As London has a massive mobile workforce as well as significant student population, this is going to be spreading like wild fire as the tier 3 lockdown is probably too late and it will have reached the Home Counties by Wednesday.

The UKG is threatening to take Greenwich council to court as it has shut it's schools and is teaching remotely. If a council takes such drastic action it can only be as a result of rates of infection climbing at rates they cannot sustain and they are doing it to shield the kids and their relatives.

Cummings got a £45K pay rise this year. Talk about a kick in the face to everyone they have just put on ice as far as their salaries are concerned

Was the insistence of BJ to get everyone back to school or university no matter what a sensible course of action? The infection rate amongst teenagers and U25s is going through the roof.

My personal opinion is that this is possibly the most inadequate, ill informed and preposterous government we have had in my life time and I have had more than most. They are beginning to rival Trump for incompetence.

[LondonTiger]

Purely from a personal standpoint, I feel that the University my Eldest attends, and 6th Form College the youngest goes to have handled this term pretty well.

The eldest had to isolate for almost 3 weeks due to a flat mate testing positive, but the University did everything in their power to make things easier. I was especially grateful that they helped me get a birthday cake delivered.

At the end of term she had two tests before leaving in an evacuation akin to a well planned military operation. Next term she has her slot to return booked, and two more tests to be taken before face to face teaching and exams can commence.

The 6th form college have completely changed their timetable to ensure maximum teaching can be delivered while minimising unnecessary mingling. With 80% of the 1,500 students in her year group using public transport they have ensred people do not need to travel at "rush" hour and staggered lesson start times to again reduce mingling. Extra tests and mock exams have been completed just in case A levels are cancelled again, and they can provide evidence of abilities (last summer for Classics the algorithm initially reduced them to Zero A*s after getting 23% of pupils at that grade in 2018). This does add to the stress levels, but various actions have been taken to help.

The recurring theme however has been that the establishments have been acting on their own initiative as any guidance from HMG has been minimal to non-existent. At the very least best practice should be gathered and shared, but this perhaps involves people doing something other than providing soundbites.

[lostinwales]

Well, not said anything for a while, but it appears we have a new strain of the virus in and around London. As London has a massive mobile workforce as well as  significant student population, this is going to be spreading like wild fire as the tier 3 lockdown is probably too late and it will have reached the Home Counties by Wednesday.

The UKG is threatening to take Greenwich council to court as it has shut it's schools and is teaching remotely. If a council takes such drastic action it can only be as a result of rates of infection climbing at rates they cannot sustain and they are doing it to shield the kids and their relatives.

Cummings got a £45K pay rise this year. Talk about a kick in the face to everyone they have just put on ice as far as their salaries are concerned

Was the insistence of BJ to get everyone back to school or university no matter what a sensible course of action? The infection rate amongst teenagers and U25s is going through the roof.

My personal opinion is that this is possibly the most inadequate, ill informed and preposterous government we have had in my life time and I have had more than most. They are beginning to rival Trump for incompetence.

It is very easy to fall into the trap of just blaming the government so that is what I am going to do. I tend to feel that their level of communication with the population as a whole only makes sense if you make two assumptions. The first is that they think we are all drunken morons. The second is that their primary aim is to avoid responsibility for anything bad.

[Derbymanc]

The government is to blame though, they're the ones that gave out massively conflicting statements (you can't have people in your house but it's fine to meet them in the pub), insisted on opening the schools up (effectively mixing 30 households together) and then dilly dallying over any main decisions, as well as not listening to the experts and generally doing whatever they want (the level of cronyism is astonishing to me)

Now they've announced a vaccine the air is that everything is fine so a lot of people will ignore the guidelines again (herberts)

Also a council makes the decision to close schools a couple of days - a week early due to spiking cases, good, sensible decision and the government says, no chance, get them back in?????

[lostinwales]

The government is to blame though, they're the ones that gave out massively conflicting statements (you can't have people in your house but it's fine to meet them in the pub), insisted on opening the schools up (effectively mixing 30 households together) and then dilly dallying over any main decisions, as well as not listening to the experts and generally doing whatever they want (the level of cronyism is astonishing to me)

Now they've announced a vaccine the air is that everything is fine so a lot of people will ignore the guidelines again (herberts)

Also a council makes the decision to close schools a couple of days - a week early due to spiking cases, good, sensible decision and the government says, no chance, get them back in?????

Of course Eton closed its doors and shifted to online teaching a while ago. Why isn't Williamson making a fuss about that?

It isn't even the technical details of the rights or wrongs about local policy. The government is hopeless on perception. It is clear to see that shutting schools in Greenwich (somewhere I lived for many years) is the right thing to do

[navyblueshorts]

The government is to blame though, they're the ones that gave out massively conflicting statements (you can't have people in your house but it's fine to meet them in the pub), insisted on opening the schools up (effectively mixing 30 households together) and then dilly dallying over any main decisions, as well as not listening to the experts and generally doing whatever they want (the level of cronyism is astonishing to me)

Now they've announced a vaccine the air is that everything is fine so a lot of people will ignore the guidelines again (herberts)

Also a council makes the decision to close schools a couple of days - a week early due to spiking cases, good, sensible decision and the government says, no chance, get them back in?????

Of course Eton closed its doors and shifted to online teaching a while ago. Why isn't Williamson making a fuss about that?

It isn't even the technical details of the rights or wrongs about local policy. The government is hopeless on perception. It is clear to see that shutting schools in Greenwich (somewhere I lived for many years) is the right thing to do

It's private; they can do as they please? Sorry, splitting hairs - this Government has had as much benefit of the doubt as I'm willing to give it.

I know some of this has been reported elsewhere, but this was an interesting, and not overly long, read:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/12/17/world/europe/britain-covid-contracts.html

[jimbopip]

Coincidentally enough, Mr Shorts, I posted this on FB this morning. It is debatable which is more shocking; the moral corruption behind these decisions, or the fact that they'll get away with it.

[navyblueshorts]

Coincidentally enough, Mr Shorts, I posted this on FB this morning. It is debatable which is more shocking; the moral corruption behind these decisions, or the fact that they'll get away with it.

Everything is debatable these days, even if one side is from the School of Flat Earthers. With all the social media and internet resources these days, anyone can find anyone who can support their views, no matter how crazed.

I think proving deliberate and knowing corruption might be hard. I tend to think that a lot of these people just genuinely don't think they're doing anything wrong, morally or in actuality. Why would they?

[jimbopip]

Coincidentally enough, Mr Shorts, I posted this on FB this morning. It is debatable which is more shocking; the moral corruption behind these decisions, or the fact that they'll get away with it.

Everything is debatable these days, even if one side is from the School of Flat Earthers. With all the social media and internet resources these days, anyone can find anyone who can support their views, no matter how crazed.

I think proving deliberate and knowing corruption might be hard. I tend to think that a lot of these people just genuinely don't think they're doing anything wrong, morally or in actuality. Why would they?

While I agree with you that "proving deliberate and knowing corruption might be hard", I don't think the second part of your last sentence holds much water. No matter how inept and incompetent they may appear they still must retain enough basic common sense to know the difference between right and wrong.

As Hamlet says,

I am but mad north-north-west. When the wind is
southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw.

Giving hundreds of millions of pounds to companies that have only existed for a matter of days, have next to no assets, have almost no employees and absolutely no experience in procuring high spec PPE for the NHS and telling them to pay themselves whatever they judge appropriate in the way of a bonus is as WRONG as it gets. It's as wrong as allowing Michael Jackson and Gary Glitter to open a pre school playgroup which would be inspected and monitored by the local parish priest.
The awarding of the PPE contracts could be seen as massively incompetent, monumentally incompetent even, if it were not for the fact that over 50% of the contracts went to people with very close personal and/or financial ties to senior members of this government. While you, and many others, may say, "proving deliberate and knowing corruption might be hard" it still stinks of corruption. That is why there is a code of conduct for government ministers and civil servants who have a duty to advise ministers to protect them from "inadvertently" leaving themselves open to charges of nepotism or corruption.

It beggars belief to say that, "these people just genuinely don't think they're doing anything wrong, morally or in actuality. Why would they?"....

[navyblueshorts]

Coincidentally enough, Mr Shorts, I posted this on FB this morning. It is debatable which is more shocking; the moral corruption behind these decisions, or the fact that they'll get away with it.

Everything is debatable these days, even if one side is from the School of Flat Earthers. With all the social media and internet resources these days, anyone can find anyone who can support their views, no matter how crazed.

I think proving deliberate and knowing corruption might be hard. I tend to think that a lot of these people just genuinely don't think they're doing anything wrong, morally or in actuality. Why would they?

While I agree with you that "proving deliberate and knowing corruption might be hard", I don't think the second part of your last sentence holds much water. No matter how inept and incompetent they may appear they still must retain enough basic common sense to know the difference between right and wrong.

As Hamlet says,

I am but mad north-north-west. When the wind is
southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw.

Giving hundreds of millions of pounds to companies that have only existed for a matter of days, have next to no assets, have almost no employees and absolutely no experience in procuring high spec PPE for the NHS and telling them to pay themselves whatever they judge appropriate in the way of a bonus is as WRONG as it gets. It's as wrong as allowing Michael Jackson and Gary Glitter to open a pre school playgroup which would be inspected and monitored by the local parish priest.
The awarding of the PPE contracts could be seen as massively incompetent, monumentally incompetent even, if it were not for the fact that over 50% of the contracts went to people with very close personal and/or financial ties to senior members of this government. While you, and many others, may say, "proving deliberate and knowing corruption might be hard" it still stinks of corruption. That is why there is a code of conduct for government ministers and civil servants who have a duty to advise ministers to protect them from "inadvertently" leaving themselves open to charges of nepotism or corruption.

It beggars belief to say that, "these people just genuinely don't think they're doing anything wrong, morally or in actuality. Why would they?"....  

You might think so, but I give you the expenses scandal. I lost track of how many MPs wittered on about how were they expected to know when everything was not explicitly described in black and white. I even got on 5Live to tear a strip off after hearing the ex-MP Mathew Parris after he was saying much the same and was trying to justify it. No consideration of the moral principles etc because they didn't think there were any.

My 'Why would they?' comment was aimed at the fact that very few of them appear to have a Scooby about anyone outside of their own close circles. They think everyone else is like them.

[Samo]

About 72 hours ago Boris Johnson accused Keir Starmer of trying to “cancel Christmas”. Now Johnson has had to introduce new Tier 4 restrictions in certain parts of England. Instead of announcing this days ago and giving more people fair warning he plays Tribalist cowpat games with peoples lives to avoid giving Labour a “win”.

You’ve got to laugh. I feel sorry for people who’ve had everything ripped up with such short notice. No doubt Nicola Sturgeon will make a similar announcement later.

You didnt need a crystal ball to see this coming.

[BamBam]

Give us a moment of your thoughts when you're done shoe shining buddy

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