Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Navy

And what super has also missed is that the statues and TV shows are not really the main focus of the protests. They are easy news bites to bring up but the meat of the protesters argument is about equality for black people.

I also don't think super is correct that just because you support BLM you don't also worry about atrocities committed in other spheres of life. It is just that currently the focus is on racism towards black people.

As much as he hates America, Super would really fit into their libertarian ways.

[super_realist]

Starmer is caught between a rock and a hard place right now, he needs to distance himself from the Corbyn faction as much as possible but alienating Momentum is going to end well either. All the Labour talent with the exception of Starmer and Nandy are on the back benches.

They'd be as well just getting rid of momentum. Hardly anyone in this country wants the sort of government that Momentum would like apart from Maxine Peake, Corbyn and that utter Mr Bell end Owen Jones, so I think it's far less harmful to get them out than it would be to leave them in.

[McLaren]

She looks like Feathers Mcgraw with those beady eyes so close together.

That's relevant, how?[/quote]

Unfortunately not everyone is as hot as Laura Kuenssberg.

[super_realist]

She looks like Feathers Mcgraw with those beady eyes so close together.

That's relevant, how?

Unfortunately not everyone is as hot as Laura Kuenssberg.
[/quote]

[navyblueshorts]

I get why Starmer has to be firm on anything surrounding Jews but I have just read the bit in the Maxine Peak interview that has been deemed anti semetic.

Born in Bolton to a lorry driver father and care worker mother, Peake is strident and expressive; if religion wasn’t anathema to her, she’d be perfect in the pulpit. “Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” (A spokesperson for the Israeli police has denied this, stating that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”.)

Not exactly the lizard people or new world order stuff I was expecting to find.

Labour obviously dodged a bullet w/ Wrong-Daily. Not because of any anti-Semitism, but because she's plainly stupid. Run as the left candidate for Labour leadership vs. Starmer, get a Shadow Cabinet position as a sop to left, re-tweet a minor dodgy comment and give Starmer the ideal opportunity to kick you out for plausible reason.

She looks like Feathers Mcgraw with those beady eyes so close together.

That's relevant, how?

It's relevant because she looks as simple as she demonstrates herself to be.

But it's not relevant. It's a dig at appearance that has no demonstrable link to her intellect. Did you judge, for example, Steven Hawking the same?

[navyblueshorts]

Starmer is caught between a rock and a hard place right now, he needs to distance himself from the Corbyn faction as much as possible but alienating Momentum is going to end well either. All the Labour talent with the exception of Starmer and Nandy are on the back benches.

Much as I hate him, he needs to speak to Bliar. Purging radical left has been done before w/ Militant in the 80s.

[super_realist]

Despite his disease. He looked intelligent.

[McLaren]

Despite his disease? What the hell does that mean. I take it you have a dim view of people with cerebral palsy or down syndrome?

[super_realist]

Despite his disease? What the hell does that mean. I take it you have a dim view of people with cerebral palsy or down syndrome?

You were the one who said Lee Westwood looked like he had Downs Syndrome Mac, so get off your holier than thou high horse.

[JAS]

Starmer is caught between a rock and a hard place right now, he needs to distance himself from the Corbyn faction as much as possible but alienating Momentum is going to end well either. All the Labour talent with the exception of Starmer and Nandy are on the back benches.

Much as I hate him, he needs to speak to Bliar. Purging radical left has been done before w/ Militant in the 80s.

To be fair by the time Blair came along the hard work had all been done, although Kinnock was fairly left of center himself and somehow perceived too ginger and Welsh to be PM himself he at least recognised what needed to be done and grasped the nettle with both hands, Smith then came along and added a bit then died so Blair got it all on a plate really. To his credit he realised his opportunity and made the most of it. It’s a bit of a shame all we’ll remember him for is Iraq but such is life.

This was Kinnock grasping the nettle, I remember it so well...

https://youtu.be/bWLN7rIby9s

[JAS]

Jeez, 1380 new cases today and an increased body count as well (ok we know that’s a lag) but the rise in cases should be ringing alarm bells but nope “Och we’ll be fine, just open the beaches and pubs.” Or in other words ... “Ok Dominic the scientist can go shag themselves, let’s try herd immunity for wave 2”

[super_realist]

I wonder why it's on the increase . Coincidently the BLM marches were three weeks ago.

[JuliusHMarx]

I wonder why it's on the increase . Coincidently the BLM marches were three weeks ago.

If we didn't have so much racism in the UK, there would be no need for marches. So even if there is a link between the marches and the increase (you must be livid about the Bournemouth beach party) perhaps the root cause of the increase is racism and we should figure out how to tackle that important issue. Agreed?

[Soul Requiem]

I wonder why it's on the increase . Coincidently the BLM marches were three weeks ago.

If we didn't have so much racism in the UK, there would be no need for marches. So even if there is a link between the marches and the increase (you must be livid about the Bournemouth beach party) perhaps the root cause of the increase is racism and we should figure out how to tackle that important issue. Agreed?

Absolute nonsense, i'm sure that will be a great comfort to the families of those who die as a result.

[super_realist]

I agree we need less racism, but using racism and police brutality in America as an excuse for not social distancing in the middle of a pandemic in the UK is one of the most stupid things I've ever heard on here.

I agree that beach goers, illiegal raves, illegal parties is also bad, but it's incredibly stupid to have a protest in the middle of a pandemic and you can't use injustice as an excuse to have a protest or there would be huge groups out every single day.

I'm sure the Doomsday Cult Extinction Rebellion would love to be out right now, but incredibly they've got the good sense to realise that their protests are less important than containing a disease.

[JuliusHMarx]

I wonder why it's on the increase . Coincidently the BLM marches were three weeks ago.

If we didn't have so much racism in the UK, there would be no need for marches. So even if there is a link between the marches and the increase (you must be livid about the Bournemouth beach party) perhaps the root cause of the increase is racism and we should figure out how to tackle that important issue. Agreed?

Absolute nonsense, i'm sure that will be a great comfort to the families of those who die as a result.

Tell that to Dominic Cummings who set the example for everyone to follow. Tell it to all the people who had street parties to celebrate VE Day - for fun, not to protest against injustice.

You don't agree we should figure out how to tackle racism?

[Soul Requiem]

So the whataboutery starts, there's a surprise.

One man driving his car is the same as thousands gathering ignoring social distancing, yes they are one and the same.

[JuliusHMarx]

So the whataboutery starts, there's a surprise.

So you don't want to tackle racism? There's a surprise.

[super_realist]

I wonder why it's on the increase . Coincidently the BLM marches were three weeks ago.

If we didn't have so much racism in the UK, there would be no need for marches. So even if there is a link between the marches and the increase (you must be livid about the Bournemouth beach party) perhaps the root cause of the increase is racism and we should figure out how to tackle that important issue. Agreed?

Absolute nonsense, i'm sure that will be a great comfort to the families of those who die as a result.

Tell that to Dominic Cummings who set the example for everyone to follow. Tell it to all the people who had street parties to celebrate VE Day - for fun, not to protest against injustice.

You don't agree we should figure out how to tackle racism?

I agree we should figure out and tackle lots of things, but I don't think doing so by gathering in thousands in the middle of a pandemic is the best time to do it, do you?  Protest as much as you like, but if you're putting hundreds of peoples lives at risk by doing it in a mass gathering (of any kind)  at the present time, then you're out of order.

For your information, Cummings certainly wasn't the first one to do it.

[super_realist]

So the whataboutery starts, there's a surprise.

So you don't want to tackle racism? There's a surprise.

You see that's the whole narrative these days isn't it? You can't say anything to criticise the movement or you're a .......racist. Absolutely pathetic arguing there.

[JuliusHMarx]

I agree that the murder of George Floyd came at an inopportune time, but it created a moment in time, a moment in history that had to be seized on, or it would have been lost for another 5, 10, 20 years. How many hundreds of lives would be lost in that time, how many thousands of others would suffer in that time? In addition to all those that have suffered over far too many decades, even longer.

It's no different to lifting lockdown early in order to get the economy moving - because poverty causes suffering and death as much as a virus.

[JuliusHMarx]

So the whataboutery starts, there's a surprise.

So you don't want to tackle racism? There's a surprise.

 You see that's the whole narrative these days isn't it? You can't say anything to criticise the movement or you're a .......racist. Absolutely pathetic arguing there.

I asked a yes or no question which he chose not to answer - and then said it was me resorting whataboutery. Why didn't he just answer the question the way you did? I didn't call him a racist, but unless he's supportive of the fight against racism, then he is part of the problem.

[super_realist]

So the whataboutery starts, there's a surprise.

So you don't want to tackle racism? There's a surprise.

 You see that's the whole narrative these days isn't it? You can't say anything to criticise the movement or you're a .......racist. Absolutely pathetic arguing there.

I asked a yes or no question which he chose not to answer - and then said it was me resorting whataboutery. Why didn't he just answer the question the way you did? I didn't call him a racist, but unless he's supportive of the fight against racism, then he is part of the problem.  

You can be supportive of the term "Black Lives Matter" and I can't think of anyone who isn't, but you don't have to support the group Black Lives Matter, who have some frankly mad demands. That's part of the problem with using the term unambiguously.

[super_realist]

I agree that the murder of George Floyd came at an inopportune time, but it created a moment in time, a moment in history that had to be seized on, or it would have been lost for another 5, 10, 20 years. How many hundreds of lives would be lost in that time, how many thousands of others would suffer in that time? In addition to all those that have suffered over far too many decades, even longer.

It's no different to lifting lockdown early in order to get the economy moving - because poverty causes suffering and death as much as a virus.

It's not being lifted early though. It's only being lifted because they are meeting the 5 steps for each lockdown phase.
Yes, there are still a lot of new cases in England especially, not so much in Wales, NI or Scotland, but it was never going to have to go down to zero to open the economy again. You have to balance the amount of deaths from Covid-19 with the collateral deaths from not lifting it which I'm certain exceed Covid deaths at the current time.

[JuliusHMarx]

I don't think using the term Black Lives Matter equates to wanting everything the Black Lives Matter group wants, and I'd be surprised if there were that many people who thought that it did equate to that.

There are a lot of people in this country who are against both the phrase and the group.

[super_realist]

I don't think using the term Black Lives Matter equates to wanting everything the Black Lives Matter group wants, and I'd be surprised if there were that many people who thought that it did equate to that.

There are a lot of people in this country who are against both the phrase and the group.

There's bound to be conflation when both the expression and the group are the same words.

[JuliusHMarx]

I agree that the murder of George Floyd came at an inopportune time, but it created a moment in time, a moment in history that had to be seized on, or it would have been lost for another 5, 10, 20 years. How many hundreds of lives would be lost in that time, how many thousands of others would suffer in that time? In addition to all those that have suffered over far too many decades, even longer.

It's no different to lifting lockdown early in order to get the economy moving - because poverty causes suffering and death as much as a virus.

It's not being lifted early though. It's only being lifted because they are meeting the 5 steps for each lockdown phase.
Yes, there are still a lot of new cases in England especially, not so much in Wales, NI or Scotland, but it was never going to have to go down to zero to open the economy again. You have to balance the amount of deaths from Covid-19 with the collateral deaths from not lifting it which I'm certain exceed Covid deaths at the current time.

Yes, but isn't that point - that it is a balance, a risk. Lifting the lockdown means more people will die of Covid. But that is offset against people who won't die of e.g. suicide through lack of a job. But 'tell that the the families of people who will die of Covid as a result'.

People going on the marches were the ones most at risk - yet they took that risk because they looked at the deaths and suffering over the next decades if nothing changed - and weighed up that balance.

[Soul Requiem]

People going on the marches were the ones most at risk - yet they took that risk because they looked at the deaths and suffering over the next decades if nothing changed - and weighed up that balance.

You're aware that's not the case right?

The youngsters turning up to protest were not the ones most at risk at all, those whom they could pass the virus on to however were.

[JuliusHMarx]

By most at risk, I meant most at risk of catching it. I had assumed that was implicit. Then the next most at risk would be their own household i.e. their loved ones. Remember also BAME people are more at risk.

[Soul Requiem]

By most at risk, I meant most at risk of catching it. I had assumed that was implicit. Then the next most at risk would be their own household i.e. their loved ones. Remember also BAME people are more at risk.  

Really?

A 30 year old is more at risk than the 60 year old he/she could pass the virus on to at say work?

[super_realist]

I agree that the murder of George Floyd came at an inopportune time, but it created a moment in time, a moment in history that had to be seized on, or it would have been lost for another 5, 10, 20 years. How many hundreds of lives would be lost in that time, how many thousands of others would suffer in that time? In addition to all those that have suffered over far too many decades, even longer.

It's no different to lifting lockdown early in order to get the economy moving - because poverty causes suffering and death as much as a virus.

It's not being lifted early though. It's only being lifted because they are meeting the 5 steps for each lockdown phase.
Yes, there are still a lot of new cases in England especially, not so much in Wales, NI or Scotland, but it was never going to have to go down to zero to open the economy again. You have to balance the amount of deaths from Covid-19 with the collateral deaths from not lifting it which I'm certain exceed Covid deaths at the current time.

Yes, but isn't that point - that it is a balance, a risk. Lifting the lockdown means more people will die of Covid. But that is offset against people who won't die of e.g. suicide through lack of a job. But 'tell that the the families of people who will die of Covid as a result'.

People going on the marches were the ones most at risk - yet they took that risk because they looked at the deaths and suffering over the next decades if nothing changed - and weighed up that balance.

Lifting the lockdown does not mean more people will die of Covid at all. The whole point of lifting it is because they consider the virus to be sufficiently under control to move to that stage. People will continue to die regardless of whether we lift it or not. It's pretty clear that if the R rate goes up then some restrictions will be reapplied.

You've said it isn't the point, but then you agree with what I just said regarding getting the balance right.

People on the march were not the ones most at risk at all. I didn't see thousands of obese, black 75 year old male diabetics on those marches, did you?  
It's the irresponsibility of meeting thousands of others to pass the disease on to unwitting people they come into contact with at a later date. Imagine finding out that your mother died because some virtue signalling white middle class Owen Jones type passed it on to her?

[JuliusHMarx]

How many people are at work compared to people who are at home with family? And work places allow for social distancing, so it ought to be relatively simple to stay distant from a colleague, compared to living in a house with your parents.

[super_realist]

How many people are at work compared to people who are at home with family? And work places allow for social distancing, so it ought to be relatively simple to stay distant from a colleague, compared to living in a house with your parents.

What's your point?

[JuliusHMarx]

Lifting the lockdown does not mean more people will die of Covid at all.

Seriously? Of course it does! You don't think anyone on the beach passed it on to anyone else? Imagine if your mother died because someone wanted to go paddling in the ocean.

[super_realist]

That wasn't following the rules though was it? It is not part of the governments policy to allow people to be not socially distanced. England is still 2m until the 4th of July (a bad day for it I think, should wait until the Monday)

THe government aren't saying visit the beach in your thousands and go as near people as you like.

[Soul Requiem]

How many people are at work compared to people who are at home with family? And work places allow for social distancing, so it ought to be relatively simple to stay distant from a colleague, compared to living in a house with your parents.

There shouldn't have been any spread at all then should there since the outbreak began because 'social distancing'.

[JuliusHMarx]

That wasn't following the rules though was it? It is not part of the governments policy to allow people to be not socially distanced. England is still 2m until the 4th of July (a bad day for it I think, should wait until the Monday)

THe government aren't saying visit the beach in your thousands and go as near people as you like.

Indeed. But I happen to think that of all the rule-breaking that has gone on since lockdown, the one that has the most justification is the one that was done to fight a 'disease' even more powerful and destructive than Covid.

[super_realist]

 There is no justification for any of them. Social distancing rules don't have caveats.

I think you must be the most naive person on this board making statements like that. Presumably you are still a youth with such a woke statement.

[JuliusHMarx]

Interesting that you use an ageist comment.

If breaking social distancing rules saves more lives than it costs, and prevents more suffering than it causes, then I'm in favour of it. I find believing otherwise to be naive.

[super_realist]

Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

[JuliusHMarx]

How much loss of life and suffering and misery has racism in all its forms cost over the centuries? How much more if it continues to go on unaddressed for decades more? Probably more than Covid ever will.

As I said before, for various reasons this is a crucial point in time in the fight against it, one that might be lost if people are indifferent towards it or use excuses to avoid it. It is as important as the fight against Covid even at this point in time.

Perhaps I'm woke because I'm an 80 year old who has seen too much suffering as a result of racism in my life and thus considers it a huge priority, as it is still so prevalent - did you ever consider that?

[super_realist]

I'm sure it's cost a great deal, but a few irresponsible and terribly timed protests doesn't address that or even come close to solving it so can't be used as justification for putting thousands at risk.

No one has to be indifferent towards it, but poorly timed protests aren't suddenly going to end it are they?

I don't care if you're 8 or 80, your view seems are incredibly infantile and simplistic.

[JuliusHMarx]

From you that's a compliment

[JuliusHMarx]

btw I's not dismissing the 40000+ deaths from Covid. It is a tragedy and I hope one day the government are held to account for all the mistakes they made that led to that number being far far higher than it should have been. I've already protested about that as well to my MP - which actually has less effect than going on a march.

[beninho]

Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

I know its not an easy question, but what do you think is a bigger issue, in the uk or globally. Covid 19 or racism?

[McLaren]

Super

The way I look at it is that from a strictly epidemiological sense a protest obviously doesn't make sense, especially to a couple of middle class white guys in Scotland like us. But maybe we just have to accept that other people have, with full capacity, decided that it does warrant the risk of increased viral spread to protest against racism. And given we haven't experienced racism maybe we just have to trust them that this was the right thing to do. This trust is not blind either, because there is enough evidence out there to show just how harmful racism still is.

As ben pointed out playing covid suppression off against anti racism protests is a pretty difficult question, I honestly don't feel equipped to make a call on what should have happened.

[incontinentia]

Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

I know its not an easy question, but what do you think is a bigger issue, in the uk or globally. Covid 19 or racism?

Covid 19 obviously. The institutional racism in US policing that is driving the worldwide BLM movement is largely a myth.

[JuliusHMarx]

Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

I know its not an easy question, but what do you think is a bigger issue, in the uk or globally. Covid 19 or racism?

Covid 19 obviously. The institutional racism in US policing that is driving the worldwide BLM movement is largely a myth.

To make a sweeping statement like that I assume you've done some research that you can point us to that is clear and conclusive. By which I mean evidence that blacks are treated equally to whites by the US police.

[Soul Requiem]

If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

[super_realist]

Ha ha, Ageist.

How does breaking social distancing save lives in regards to racism? 40,000+ people have died in the UK from this, do you seriously think racism is having anything like the impact of this? You really are naive.

Racism needs addressed, but there's bigger priorities at the moment and thousands of people gathering all over the place isn't necessarily solving racism anyway.

I know its not an easy question, but what do you think is a bigger issue, in the uk or globally. Covid 19 or racism?

Clearly at the present time it is Covid and the fallout thereof.
Every single person in the UK is affected by racism, not even all BAME people are affected by racism.
Seems like rather a naive question to me.

[super_realist]

btw I's not dismissing the 40000+ deaths from Covid. It is a tragedy and I hope one day the government are held to account for all the mistakes they made that led to that number being far far higher than it should have been. I've already protested about that as well to my MP - which actually has less effect than going on a march.

What can you hold them account with,, hindsight? Good luck with that.
Nice Ali G impersonation by the way.

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