The summer of cricket 2020

First topic message reminder :

Great ton from Morgan. Came in at 44/3 - now victory looks assured for England after this partnership.

(Spoiler: It wasn't.)

20/1 at tea. They bowled well there , with not much luck.

Have a nasty feeling that dropped catch sucked a lot of life out of the team , from the body language all round. Need to rekindle some spirit over the interval or this will go away fast. If it hasn't already gone.

Stokes is one of the best point/gully fielders in the world and he fields at second slip. He is a brilliant fielder but not a fantastic slipper but fields there due to seniority. It really frustrates me and just feels a bit village. Kind of like when Cook started fielding a short leg instead of Ian Bell because he was the junior batsman. It's Test cricket, get your best fielders in the right positions.

Root is a cracking first slip. Sibley and Crawley are excellent slip fielders to field at 2nd and 3rd. Burns is very good around 4th slip and gully. Bess is very good at point. Stokes is outstanding at gully/point. Pope is England's best short leg since James Taylor who was by far the best since a young Ian Bell.

Our catchers should be a huge strength with the players at this sides disposal. Stokes is in the wrong position though. Get him in gully/point. Stopping singles and plucking catches that are skimming the grass. Or even get him at short cover or silly mid-off so he's in the eyeline for the batsman.

Think it might have been Nasser who described Stokes as a taker of great catches, rather than a great catcher. Seems apt.

king_carlos wrote:Stokes is one of the best point/gully fielders in the world and he fields at second slip. He is a brilliant fielder but not a fantastic slipper but fields there due to seniority. It really frustrates me and just feels a bit village. Kind of like when Cook started fielding a short leg instead of Ian Bell because he was the junior batsman. It's Test cricket, get your best fielders in the right positions.

Root is a cracking first slip. Sibley and Crawley are excellent slip fielders to field at 2nd and 3rd. Burns is very good around 4th slip and gully. Bess is very good at point. Stokes is outstanding at gully/point. Pope is England's best short leg since James Taylor who was by far the best since a young Ian Bell.

Our catchers should be a huge strength with the players at this sides disposal. Stokes is in the wrong position though. Get him in gully/point. Stopping singles and plucking catches that are skimming the grass. Or even get him at short cover or silly mid-off so he's in the eyeline for the batsman.

Whether that's down to the players themselves, the coaching staff or the captain it is frustrating to see players fielding where they shouldn't. Seniority shouldn't come into it but quite clearly does. Going back to the 2005 team you had Flintoff, Trescothick and Strauss who were all brilliant slip fielders before that you oddly had Thorpe who was very good but tended to field elsewhere.

Don't forget Jennings at short leg there KC who is ridiculously good.

Eyetoldyouso wrote:It pains me to say it, but now is the time to discuss the elephant in the room, ie the captain. Joe Root may be the best batsman in the side but he is no captain.
I'm probably older than most of us on this discussion board so have had the benefit of seeing some truly great captains; captains who made a difference, who influenced games, brought out the best in their teams, knew what changes were required on the field - you know what I mean.
From an England point of view can we honestly say that Joe Root can be compared to Ray Illingworth, Tony Greig, Mike Brearley, Mike Gatting, Michael Vaughan, Nasser Hussain and Andrew Strauss.
These were outstanding captains, generally the teams were better than the sum of the parts. Matches didn't just drift along, things were happening and you always felt that the captain was trying something to control events.
I may be unfair to Joe Root by comparing him to great captains but I feel that he isn't in control, isn't trying to influence the game. In short, he's just not got it.
Sadly, we may be in a period where there are no outstanding candidates.

Hi eyetold - one of the issues for an England skipper these days - and why I have some sympathy for Root - is that he gets little to no opportunity to learn the art of captaincy before being thrust into the Test spotlight. Several of those you mention had the opportunity in earlier years to hone the required skills in the comparative quiet backwaters of the county game. Furthermore, in such times the England skipper might have a few county captains in his Test side upon whose experience he could call upon for advice. This was particularly the case for Illingworth who on occasions had such county captains playing under him as Boycott, Edrich, Fletcher and Gifford. How much Illy - always his own man - would have wanted to do that is of course another matter!

That all said, I don't see that ''outstanding'' quality (or even potential to attain it) in Root that was possessed by some. The two stand outs for me being Brearley (rightly well publicised) and Illingworth (his capture of the Ashes down under in '70/'71 merits greater recognition).

JDizzle wrote:Think it might have been Nasser who described Stokes as a taker of great catches, rather than a great catcher. Seems apt.

It has application in other sports too. Football - great goal scorers (Greaves, Lineker, etc) don't score great goals.

Bess does the trick ! Good bowling , unsettled Abid Ali and he's given his wicket away

Hope goose is watching

king_carlos wrote:Stokes is one of the best point/gully fielders in the world and he fields at second slip. He is a brilliant fielder but not a fantastic slipper but fields there due to seniority. It really frustrates me and just feels a bit village. Kind of like when Cook started fielding a short leg instead of Ian Bell because he was the junior batsman. It's Test cricket, get your best fielders in the right positions.

Root is a cracking first slip. Sibley and Crawley are excellent slip fielders to field at 2nd and 3rd. Burns is very good around 4th slip and gully. Bess is very good at point. Stokes is outstanding at gully/point. Pope is England's best short leg since James Taylor who was by far the best since a young Ian Bell.

Our catchers should be a huge strength with the players at this sides disposal. Stokes is in the wrong position though. Get him in gully/point. Stopping singles and plucking catches that are skimming the grass. Or even get him at short cover or silly mid-off so he's in the eyeline for the batsman.

Fair points KC...but they haven't even had anyone at gully today , oddly enough. I agree with Warne they should have had more slips for the new ball.
Stokes is a very good slip to the spinners though.

Pleased to see Archer cranking it up a bit that over. Got one or two at 88-89. About time really...for all the talk of express pace he's been around 84-85 too much in this match .
I was actually a bit taken aback with that interview where he said something like "this pitch isn't one on which you want to bend your back" . Thought that was what he was in the side to do !
And yes , pace isn't everything. But a man who can bowl at 90 + has to do so when the team wants a fierce burst. Plenty of other bowlers to do the donkey work.

Now : why the devil have they taken Bess off ?

Pleased to see Archer cranking it up a bit that over. Got one or two at 88-89. About time really...for all the talk of express pace he's been around 84-85 too much in this match .
I was actually a bit taken aback with that interview where he said something like "this pitch isn't one on which you want to bend your back" . Thought that was what he was in the side to do !
And yes , pace isn't everything. But a man who can bowl at 90 + has to do so when the team wants a fierce burst. Plenty of other bowlers to do the donkey work.

Now : why the devil have they taken Bess off ?

Edit : ha ! OK , Joe ...will give you that one

Woakes ...the perfect bowling change ! Strikes...game on .

alfie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Stokes is one of the best point/gully fielders in the world and he fields at second slip. He is a brilliant fielder but not a fantastic slipper but fields there due to seniority. It really frustrates me and just feels a bit village. Kind of like when Cook started fielding a short leg instead of Ian Bell because he was the junior batsman. It's Test cricket, get your best fielders in the right positions.

Root is a cracking first slip. Sibley and Crawley are excellent slip fielders to field at 2nd and 3rd. Burns is very good around 4th slip and gully. Bess is very good at point. Stokes is outstanding at gully/point. Pope is England's best short leg since James Taylor who was by far the best since a young Ian Bell.

Our catchers should be a huge strength with the players at this sides disposal. Stokes is in the wrong position though. Get him in gully/point. Stopping singles and plucking catches that are skimming the grass. Or even get him at short cover or silly mid-off so he's in the eyeline for the batsman.

Fair points KC...but they haven't even had anyone at gully today , oddly enough. I agree with Warne they should have had more slips for the new ball.
Stokes is a very good slip to the spinners though.

Agreed Stokes is fantastic to the spinners. Where the catches are more to do with instinct and reaction time he is simply brilliant.

At slip you have the old watch the edge or watch the ball debate. It is a very technical fielding position. Sibley and Crawley have that technique, as did the likes of Trescothick and Swann from previous teams. I'm not sure that Stokes has that experience there. A Test slip cordon isn't a place to learn on the job!

alfie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Stokes is one of the best point/gully fielders in the world and he fields at second slip. He is a brilliant fielder but not a fantastic slipper but fields there due to seniority. It really frustrates me and just feels a bit village. Kind of like when Cook started fielding a short leg instead of Ian Bell because he was the junior batsman. It's Test cricket, get your best fielders in the right positions.

Root is a cracking first slip. Sibley and Crawley are excellent slip fielders to field at 2nd and 3rd. Burns is very good around 4th slip and gully. Bess is very good at point. Stokes is outstanding at gully/point. Pope is England's best short leg since James Taylor who was by far the best since a young Ian Bell.

Our catchers should be a huge strength with the players at this sides disposal. Stokes is in the wrong position though. Get him in gully/point. Stopping singles and plucking catches that are skimming the grass. Or even get him at short cover or silly mid-off so he's in the eyeline for the batsman.

Fair points KC...but they haven't even had anyone at gully today , oddly enough. I agree with Warne they should have had more slips for the new ball.
Stokes is a very good slip to the spinners though.

I only switched on at the end of it but they were discussing earlier in this Test on Sky that gully seems to be a fielding position less used these days. If they explained why, I missed it. Odd.

alfie wrote:Pleased to see Archer cranking it up a bit that over. Got one or two at 88-89. About time really...for all the talk of express pace he's been around 84-85 too much in this match .
I was actually a bit taken aback with that interview where he said something like "this pitch isn't one on which you want to bend your back" . Thought that was what he was in the side to do !
And yes , pace isn't everything. But a man who can bowl at 90 + has to do so when the team wants a fierce burst. Plenty of other bowlers to do the donkey work.

Now : why the devil have they taken Bess off ?

Think Soul has said this a few times, but he seems to bowl a bit better with slightly reduced pace, and fuller lengths in England, and gets the ball to wobble off the seam. In the side to take wickets, and I think it’s encouraging he’s clearly thinking about the best way to do it

Hi KC...

He did better that time ! But yes , I do agree I'd rather see him at gully - when they have one. Just to point out though , Crawley isn't playing so someone else had to be in there . Sibley was at third , no ?

Not a bad slip fielder , perhaps , but a little inconsistent ?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:Pleased to see Archer cranking it up a bit that over. Got one or two at 88-89. About time really...for all the talk of express pace he's been around 84-85 too much in this match .
I was actually a bit taken aback with that interview where he said something like "this pitch isn't one on which you want to bend your back" . Thought that was what he was in the side to do !
And yes , pace isn't everything. But a man who can bowl at 90 + has to do so when the team wants a fierce burst. Plenty of other bowlers to do the donkey work.

Now : why the devil have they taken Bess off ?

Think Soul has said this a few times, but he seems to bowl a bit better with slightly reduced pace, and fuller lengths in England, and gets the ball to wobble off the seam. In the side to take wickets, and I think it’s encouraging he’s clearly thinking about the best way to do it

On English wickets that extra bit of pace isnt all that important, accuracy and a touch of movement are what is needed. The speed gun is also dependent on height of the bowler and length of the ball, a fuller delivery will register higher.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:Pleased to see Archer cranking it up a bit that over. Got one or two at 88-89. About time really...for all the talk of express pace he's been around 84-85 too much in this match .
I was actually a bit taken aback with that interview where he said something like "this pitch isn't one on which you want to bend your back" . Thought that was what he was in the side to do !
And yes , pace isn't everything. But a man who can bowl at 90 + has to do so when the team wants a fierce burst. Plenty of other bowlers to do the donkey work.

Now : why the devil have they taken Bess off ?

Think Soul has said this a few times, but he seems to bowl a bit better with slightly reduced pace, and fuller lengths in England, and gets the ball to wobble off the seam. In the side to take wickets, and I think it’s encouraging he’s clearly thinking about the best way to do it

Yes I take that on board. But there is a time for full , wobbly stuff , and a time for outright speed and aggression. I feel that in this particular combination of bowlers , Archer is the one who should provide some fireworks . The whole idea of bringing in extra pace , himself and Wood , was to vary what was already a rather good attack for English conditions , no ? If he's just doing what Woakes probably does better , what is the point ?
I also like the fact that he is trying to learn new tricks. But until he develops a ball that actually leaves the right hander he's unlikely to run through too many decent top orders.

Woakes on song ...Azhar gone ! 63/4 abd the game is really alive now...

reckon we cant let them get more than 120 in this innings. keep the lead under 250 we have a chance

alfie wrote:Hi KC...

He did better that time ! But yes , I do agree I'd rather see him at gully  - when they have one.  Just to point out though , Crawley isn't playing so someone else had to be in there . Sibley was at third , no ?

Not a bad slip fielder , perhaps , but a little inconsistent ?

Definitely not a bad slipper. Inexperienced I would say. It's a position where players improve a lot with time stood there.

A bit of name dropping through the grapevine coming up. Former Yorkshire skipper David Byas took a fielding session with my club side once, concentrating on slip fielding. He told a story of Phil Sharpe (the man often coined as having made slip fielding an art) chatting to a young slipper after dropping a catch. He asked the young lad, "where was the batsman trying to hit the ball when you dropped it?" "He was trying to hit it back through mid-on", the young man responded. Sharpe immediately said, "if you know where he was trying to hit it then you were watching the bat not the ball after it left the edge".

I would like to see Root as 1st slip, Sibley as a settled 2nd slip and Burns at 3rd. If Crawley is in the side then I think he's marginally the better slipper than Burns so would like him at 3rd in those circumstances. Having a huge reach a la Flintoff helps at times!

From there use Stokes wherever he's most dangerous. If the ball is hooping about get him at point or gully (if we have one in). If Archer is digging it into the batsman's ribs then Stokes can be in the leg slip position this side seem to like. If the batsman are dropping and running or driving a bit on up get Stokes in somewhere like short cover. Use his sublime reactions as a weapon wherever the situation demands in my opinion.

Back to the present day...

England's bowlers are doing there best to drag England back into a Test match once again. I think England need at least a couple more tonight though. The pitch is turning more and more.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:Pleased to see Archer cranking it up a bit that over. Got one or two at 88-89. About time really...for all the talk of express pace he's been around 84-85 too much in this match .
I was actually a bit taken aback with that interview where he said something like "this pitch isn't one on which you want to bend your back" . Thought that was what he was in the side to do !
And yes , pace isn't everything. But a man who can bowl at 90 + has to do so when the team wants a fierce burst. Plenty of other bowlers to do the donkey work.

Now : why the devil have they taken Bess off ?

Think Soul has said this a few times, but he seems to bowl a bit better with slightly reduced pace, and fuller lengths in England, and gets the ball to wobble off the seam. In the side to take wickets, and I think it’s encouraging he’s clearly thinking about the best way to do it

On English wickets that extra bit of pace isnt all that important, accuracy and a touch of movement are what is needed. The speed gun is also dependent on height of the bowler and length of the ball, a fuller delivery will register higher.

Yes I get all that , Soul. And I don't really disagree...nor do I want to be overcritical of the lad. But if you look at the early wicket he got in the first innings , it came about through a couple of fierce short ones forcing the batsman back ...followed up with the full delivery that found his footwork all wrong . A lovely combination !

I just wanted to see him attack all out in that spell this evening , just for a few overs. Matters less now as Woakes has done the trick and they're into the middle order. If they can winkle out the next two he might be invaluable in blowing away the tail...Yorker at 90 a bit harder to keep out than the same ball at 85...

king_carlos wrote:

alfie wrote:Hi KC...

He did better that time ! But yes , I do agree I'd rather see him at gully  - when they have one.  Just to point out though , Crawley isn't playing so someone else had to be in there . Sibley was at third , no ?

Not a bad slip fielder , perhaps , but a little inconsistent ?

Definitely not a bad slipper. Inexperienced I would say. It's a position where players improve a lot with time stood there.

A bit of name dropping through the grapevine coming up. Former Yorkshire skipper David Byas took a fielding session with my club side once, concentrating on slip fielding. He told a story of Phil Sharpe (the man often coined as having made slip fielding an art) chatting to a young slipper after dropping a catch. He asked the young lad, "where was the batsman trying to hit the ball when you dropped it?" "He was trying to hit it back through mid-on", the young man responded. Sharpe immediately said, "if you know where he was trying to hit it then you were watching the bat not the ball after it left the edge".

I would like to see Root as 1st slip, Sibley as a settled 2nd slip and Burns at 3rd. If Crawley is in the side then I think he's marginally the better slipper than Burns so would like him at 3rd in those circumstances. Having a huge reach a la Flintoff helps at times!

From there use Stokes wherever he's most dangerous. If the ball is hooping about get him at point or gully (if we have one in). If Archer is digging it into the batsman's ribs then Stokes can be in the leg slip position this side seem to like. If the batsman are dropping and running or driving a bit on up get Stokes in somewhere like short cover. Use his sublime reactions as a weapon wherever the situation demands in my opinion.

Yes I think we can agree on that , King Carlos . I know from personal experience how much one's slip catching can improve with a lot of practical experience in matches .And if Crawley is back they can field four competent slippers

It feels like Jimmy coming back could be a key moment here.

Root looking animated. All 4 seamers in a huddle chatting away. Possibility of reverse.

Seems there's an expectation that the attack leader can make something important happen.

Jimmy a bit too straight to these two at the moment...getting worked to leg a bit.
Though that last ball was a cracker !

Need to get this and the next soon if they're going to keep this target within reach.

Sibley putting that slimline frame to good use!

Run out

Great work by Sibley ...just when this pair had Pakistan moving into a position of some comfort.

This game not wanting to die.

Boy did England need that. The Pakistan coaches will be furious. They've reopened a door that seemed shut.

Not much batting after these two...

They are already 208 ahead , of course. But get one of these quickly and England will at least dare to dream.

bess giving far too many cheap runs away. going at 4 an over. id definitely going all out with two pace bowlers at the minute

Bess has bowled too many loose balls lately. He'd started really well ; and he's looked likely enough to get another break...but he's leaked more runs than they can really afford as the evening has gone on.

Dilemma for Root . Time for Broad again ?

Anderson bowling some rubbish at the other end too. Double change required I think.

JDizzle wrote:Anderson bowling some rubbish at the other end too. Double change required I think.

Think he might be primed for a “rest” next game, personally...

Looks like Stokes time...

Wise or not. I'm not totally surprised.

Stokes is going to have a bowl. Think this is a bit silly.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Anderson bowling some rubbish at the other end too. Double change required I think.

Think he might be primed for a “rest” next game, personally...

Yes he's not quite himself here I fear. Good first spell , no luck at all. But he's faded later and just isn't putting his usual pressure on the batsmen.

Is it goodnight Jimmy ? Would be a big call. But the time comes for all of us...

Perhaps a rest and back for the third ? We shall see.

Bowling stokes is a real last throw of the dice. Fair play england are chucking the kitchen sink at winning this game but I'm not sure his medium to long term health is worth the risk with the game already realisticly lost.

Now watch him get a 50 ball century in the second innings to knock off 300 chase

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Anderson bowling some rubbish at the other end too. Double change required I think.

Think he might be primed for a “rest” next game, personally...

Yes he's not quite himself here I fear. Good first spell , no luck at all. But he's faded later and just isn't putting his usual pressure on the batsmen.

Is it goodnight Jimmy ? Would be a big call. But the time comes for all of us...

Perhaps a rest and back for the third ? We shall see.

Rest and back for the third unless they win that at a canter. They will want him for Asia IF he still wants it. He may fall on his own sword if he's not feeling up for it.

Gooseberry wrote:Bowling stokes is a real last throw of the dice. Fair play england are chucking the kitchen sink at winning this game but I'm not sure his medium to long term health is worth the risk with the game already realisticly lost.

Now watch him get a 50 ball century in the second innings to knock off 300 chase

Got the vital wicket Predictable ...

And Stokes with the breakthrough! There’s been a mess up somewhere (either they have dropped a batsman unnecessarily or they are getting Stokes to bowl injured) but that is exactly what England needed. Into the tail.

alfie wrote:Bess has bowled too many loose balls lately.  He'd started really well ; and he's looked likely enough to get another break...but he's leaked more runs than they can really afford as the evening has gone on.

Dilemma for Root . Time for Broad again ?

Caught a bit of TMS where Vic Marks wasing saying he was trying too hard rather than letting the pitch do the work.
Hes had the opportunity to bowl at left handers, tail enders, and on a turning pitch this test with little to show for it. Pakistan obviously are expected to be comfortable with orthodox spin but its not been his best test.
The kid does have talent though just needs a bit more mentoring, all the expert pundits certainly have OPINIONS but none doubt he's a good bowler just not alwayd making the best of his talents.
Obviously this forum will blame buttler but I reckon leach might get the next test. If nothing else its a hell of a lot easier for him to take wickets against the right handers.

alfie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Bowling stokes is a real last throw of the dice. Fair play england are chucking the kitchen sink at winning this game but I'm not sure his medium to long term health is worth the risk with the game already realisticly lost.

Now watch him get a 50 ball century in the second innings to knock off 300 chase

Got the vital wicket   Predictable ...

Someone always has to have the last word dont they

Might have been a shade fortunate to get the on field decision...was nearly too high. But I must say it looked good to me live. And eagle eye confirms it was hitting - just.

Holding saying he doesn't like seeing those given out . Bet he'd have had a different opinion when he was bowling

Who's your all time greatest XI ?

1-Stokes&Woakes
2-11 don't need them

alfie wrote:Might have been a shade fortunate to get the on field decision...was nearly too high. But I must say it looked good to me live. And eagle eye confirms it was hitting - just.

Holding saying he doesn't like seeing those given out .  Bet he'd have had a different opinion when he was bowling

Pint of Bitter for Holdings table ...didn't the windies lose out on 3 not given clipping the top that they reviewed in the first englands innings of the second test?

Gooseberry wrote:

alfie wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Bowling stokes is a real last throw of the dice. Fair play england are chucking the kitchen sink at winning this game but I'm not sure his medium to long term health is worth the risk with the game already realisticly lost.

Now watch him get a 50 ball century in the second innings to knock off 300 chase

Got the vital wicket   Predictable ...

Someone always has to have the last word dont they

Stokes often does ! I did expect he'd bowl , if they felt they weren't getting anywhere...the man is a force of nature...hard to keep the ball out of his hand. Whether the fitness risk is worth it is another issue...

Now : has Broad got another one ? Yes

Blimey, England are suddenly back in this. A real collection of rabbits to come now

Just the bunnies left. 229/7 effectively...can England keep the chase to 250 ?

presumably they'll just throw the bat at it now. cant afford them to add a quick 30

Stokes has got the break ...I'd get him off now , bring back Woakes. No need to risk him further , and he's more likely to leak runs.

He will probably take a hat trick now.

Danger for England is that a streaky 30 from Yasir will be huge in the context of the game.

It's been another good Test match so far.

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Anderson bowling some rubbish at the other end too. Double change required I think.

Think he might be primed for a “rest” next game, personally...

Yes he's not quite himself here I fear. Good first spell , no luck at all. But he's faded later and just isn't putting his usual pressure on the batsmen.

Is it goodnight Jimmy ? Would be a big call. But the time comes for all of us...

Perhaps a rest and back for the third ? We shall see.

Probably a bit soon to be writing his obituary Alfie!

But he has just bowled far too many boundary balls this test, his economy a solid run higher than all other England seamers. Don’t think he’s bowled “badly” per se, just not his usual metronomic self.