England: 8 Nations

First topic message reminder :

Not sure if theres already a thread kicking about but seeing as the prem is back I thought it may be nice to argue over the numerous players impressing.

As ever it seems to be scrum half, flankers, centre and full back are where there are chances for people to force their way in. Can't say I've ever been able to call what Eddie Jones thinks but Willis and hill must be tempting him to widen the player pool. A number of scrum halfs have started well also but has the time come for Spencer or Robson? Thought Maunder was very good too and Mitchell showed great flashes.

I'm at a bit of a loss for full back based on the games last week. Furbank looked anonymous and let's face it Daly is a Jones favourite.

Gooseberry wrote:England best team in the world so long as you're allowed to lose one game to win the cup

Unlike who? A cup is a cup, it doesnt signify who the best team is. Everything but a league has limitations.

Gooseberry wrote:England best team in the world so long as you're allowed to lose one game to win the cup

You are. South Africa did

Congrats on the 6 Nations Title...

......England all the way

Euro champs, 6nations champs, 2nd string euro champs.

Must be doing something right

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Advantage Ireland.

Seems I got the point difference wrong as well. It's a 6 point lead England have.

Ireland can win 0-7 and take the title. Massive, massive opportunity missed by England here. Even just a 15-20 point lead in the points table would force Ireland to play.

At least it makes things interesting. Not easy for Ireland to defeat a French team that has looked the real deal apart from up in Scotland, but they have to be favourites to take the title as things stand.

Well, no, they wouldn't be because they're not favourites to beat France, and certainly not by the 7 point plus margin required.

"Well, erm, actually..."

It's an opinion, buddy. There is no 'no' to that. I reject your statement.

Get your money on, then, if you make Ireland favourites. PaddyPower making them 7/2 to win the title (about 22% probability).

I don't gamble. Betting is a losing game.

I don't bet either but the betting odds do show Ireland are not favourites. France are quite strong favourites to win.  Who will win is as you write a matter of opinion. Who are favourites is not a matter of opinion, France are favourites.  

Bookies are not the sole arbiters of favouritism. They set odds based on highly complex mathematics in order to maximise their earnings.

Odds are not a marker of prediction for the scoreline or result - they are an assessment based on earning money from gamblers.

Sorry....REJECTED!

Bookies do not really decide the odds. It is a market and the choices of thousands of gamblers set the price. It is highly unlikely that the view of gamblers on who would win a rugby match differs greatly from that of people in general. As it turned out the majority of gamblers got it right.

Champions

To be honest I was disappointed by Farrell's performance at 10. Really think Simmons/Smith  could be the 10s to take us forward. I was beginning to worry Dunn wouldn't get on the field.

His a good ladbabd deserves his cap. First of many I hope.

Anyone else notice how hilarious bad the person responsible for the fake crowd noise was?

They obviously only had two options - background noise or goal scored in football reaction, the latter of which was applied at the most random times!

RDW wrote:Anyone else notice how hilarious bad the person responsible for the fake crowd noise was?

They obviously only had two options - background noise or goal scored in football reaction, the latter of which was applied at the most random times!

Yeah it was always lagging a bit, really could've done without it. Times its genuinely confusing making you feel like you've missed something then absolute silence for the Farrell break to the first try ..did I miss a whistle?

Theres been some very funky production over the years in the games hosted in Italy mind, at least they managed to get the cameras largely focused on the game this time, as little of it that was worth watching.

Exiledinborders wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Advantage Ireland.

Seems I got the point difference wrong as well. It's a 6 point lead England have.

Ireland can win 0-7 and take the title. Massive, massive opportunity missed by England here. Even just a 15-20 point lead in the points table would force Ireland to play.

At least it makes things interesting. Not easy for Ireland to defeat a French team that has looked the real deal apart from up in Scotland, but they have to be favourites to take the title as things stand.

Well, no, they wouldn't be because they're not favourites to beat France, and certainly not by the 7 point plus margin required.

"Well, erm, actually..."

It's an opinion, buddy. There is no 'no' to that. I reject your statement.

Get your money on, then, if you make Ireland favourites. PaddyPower making them 7/2 to win the title (about 22% probability).

I don't gamble. Betting is a losing game.

I don't bet either but the betting odds do show Ireland are not favourites. France are quite strong favourites to win.  Who will win is as you write a matter of opinion. Who are favourites is not a matter of opinion, France are favourites.  

Bookies are not the sole arbiters of favouritism. They set odds based on highly complex mathematics in order to maximise their earnings.

Odds are not a marker of prediction for the scoreline or result - they are an assessment based on earning money from gamblers.

Sorry....REJECTED!

Bookies do not really decide the odds. It is a market and the choices of thousands of gamblers set the price. It is highly unlikely that the view of gamblers on who would win a rugby match differs greatly from that of people in general. As it turned out the majority of gamblers got it right.

They do. They have a team of statisticians that work out he various permutations and ensure that the bookie's risk is covered as best as possible. Those odds are adjusted based on demand to ensure that they aren't left open to undue risk.

Only just realised the Georgia game is 2 weeks away. Really need to see a more cohesive performance from the backs and less brain farts from the forwards in terms of discipline. Another walk in the park really but hoping there are genuine chances for the fringe players to impress then keep their places.

It really wasn't a surprise that England were rusty. 200+ days since the last international makes for a long time out. I dread to think what SA will be like when they finally get restarted.

One part of the game plan England really need to sort out is the 9 and the 10 kicking the ball away 70% of the time. Instead of Italy running it back at us we could have sent it down the line and probably made 30m before recycling and doing it again. If I see Youngs doing another bleeping box kick I'll kick the tv! I suppose a plus point to Furbank is that he didn't drop it as he's been prone to recently.

Well done eventually - we are the 6N champions.

I am hoping for a few changes for the Georgia game - maybe starting Robson, Dombrandt and Lawrence. We have the players - let's stop relying on the same old stagers and get some freshers in there.

As always there is that tactic of making the opposition play in difficult parts of the pitch, hence the constant kicking. But it would be nice to see more variety. It is not like we don't have the kind of players who can run tries in from the other end of the pitch.

lostinwales wrote:As always there is that tactic of making the opposition play in difficult parts of the pitch, hence the constant kicking. But it would be nice to see more variety. It is not like we don't have the kind of players who can run tries in from the other end of the pitch.

It's a means of using the England forwards breakdown work and tackling as a means to score points as well. Curry, Underhill and Itoje are outstanding defensive players. Mako and George fantastic tacklers. Even Sinckler was leading chases effectively yesterday which is ridiculous for a tighthead prop. The chasing under Jones has been consistently excellent even if the kicking at times lacks accuracy.

Agreed that we need to see the attack keep developing though. South Africa kick a lot but in Faf and Kolbe they have players who can create from nothing. England lose a lot in that regard when Manu is injured.

I hope that we can see England move towards scoring more from phase play using the whole backline. Marchant is a very good all round centre who could add to the side in that regard. Lawrence is an interesting option in Manu's absence given his power. Thorley and Cokanasiga have the power to offer something different form the wing as well. There are options there.

I've said it a few times but Daly added a lot with regards to the 'continuity' in our attack improving. Continuity is a pish word there I accept but it's the best one I can think of to describe what Daly does as a link man in the wider channels. His ability to run himself, kick or distribute along with his decision making improved our finishing a lot. How often did we comment on Brown being great ball in hand but squandering chances with a weak passing game?

Whilst I want a long term fullback who is stronger defensively I think the attack will take a hit whilst that player is being looked for.

Italy and Wales were just so negative, maybe we should have relegation in the 6 Nations.

TightHEAD wrote:Italy and Wales were just so negative, maybe we should have relegation in the 6 Nations.

It would be Italy down and Georgia up every year. I would agree with expanding it to 7 teams though.

TightHEAD wrote:Italy and Wales were just so negative, maybe we should have relegation in the 6 Nations.

Attacking England 14 tries, boring Wales 13 Hersh.

RiscaGame wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Italy and Wales were just so negative, maybe we should have relegation in the 6 Nations.

Attacking England 14 tries, boring Wales 13 Hersh.

England Champs Wales 5th.

Hersh 1st
Victor 2nd
Scrumpy 3rd
Tighthead 4th

How can someone post the exact same trash on these forums over and over since 2007 and not get bored...

Well i missed pretty much the whole game. Seen a few highlights but not much.

How did Slade go at 12?
How did Johnny Hill go?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well i missed pretty much the whole game. Seen a few highlights but not much.

How did Slade go at 12?
How did Johnny Hill go?

Slade was quiet at 12 but the England backs as a whole didn't shine and looked rusty. Slade continued his scoring form and was solid in defense as ever though.

With Manu missing the backline feels unbalanced playing it's current game. I feel we either need a different player offering power (Lawrence, Thorley and Cokanasiga are all options) or need to keep ball in hand more and score through phase play. For the later sort of attacking play Daly has been integral. So missing Many and Daly it feels the backline needs new tactics in attack.

Hill was solid outside of his yellow card, which I'd call clumsy more than anything. The lineout operated well in the absence of Kruis and Lawes. The scrum was good with Hill and Itoje locking it out but Italy are struggling at loosehead with absentees (Andrea Lovotti in particular) then their starter Danilo Fischetti (a good LH but on the small side for a prop usually) having lost a lot of weight over lockdown due to lack of training facilities. So the set-piece went well but the scrum needs viewing in perspective.

Hill was overshadowed by Itoje, not unexpected to be fair, who was excellent early in the second half when England needed to raise the intensity. Straight from the kick off for the second half it looked like Itoje had been told to push things by Jones. He basically threw Sinckler round a ruck when he was slow to work 'round the corner' at the first breakdown then made a couple of dominant tackles. In the first half the pack looked short of leadership to be honest so I was very happy to see Itoje playing like that straight from the break. Curry and Itoje should be leading the pack the way Savea and Retallick to for the ABs or Kolisi and PSdt for the Boks.

Not sure the ball got to Slade through a pass did it? Whenever Youngs forgot to kick it, Farrell made.up for it!

From the brief highlights...SInkler looked like he wanted to be anywhere but on that pitch.

Has he lost some of his fire?

No one looked great but then it was quite an easy game except for some one off moments like the Sinckler scoop pass which led to the try and the moment earl knocked the ball back over his own try line. One of those rusty performances where we did what we needed to do.

I would like Farrell to be more vocal to the ref at the right time re what he wants looking at. One of the reasons that kicking wasnt working was that Italy were constantly blocking a word in the ear early doors may have seen that rightly punished and made a difference.

Itoje played well but aside from that I don't think anyone was more than a 6/10. Aside from his two tries Youngs was at his frustrating worst, slow distribution and kicking far too deep, that he was named MOTM was a bit baffling. Curry and Underhill looked ok but I always feel that the pair need more of a challenge to really shine. Slade and Joseph didn't really fire but then they weren't given any chance with ball in hand to do anything much like the back three. All in all a forgettable match and performance.

king_carlos wrote:Straight from the kick off for the second half it looked like Itoje had been told to push things by Jones. He basically threw Sinckler round a ruck when he was slow to work 'round the corner' at the first breakdown then made a couple of dominant tackles.

I noticed this, thought it was a great start to the second half, but wondered why he and the pack in general hadn't come out firing the same way at the beginning of the game. When we've really performed against the strongest nations, we've tended to start fast, and I'd hope to see that come back over the next couple of games

Well that was hard watching. We were very poor for the most but I didn't see this Ireland side getting close to a win in France. It's a "best of a bad bunch" 6N title for the English this year I feel.

A few concerns....Furbank is never going to be good enough, lets move on. JJ really look a shadow of his former self.

Slade went ok, a lot of missed tackle from the pack, especially Underhill from what I recall. Youngs played better than he has for a while but I think we missed Ford, Farrell doesn't bring the same spark to the backline.

Ford's borderline for Georgia as well so I'd rather he not be risked. Will be interesting to see the changes as I always feel it's best to have a core and a smaller amount of changes than whole scale but on the other hand I want to see more of about 4 or 5 players!

I thought he might have made some big changes for this next game...but hearing about the Italy game he might want to keep it the same and try to get a better performance,

I get that England's gamelan has (largely successfully) been to kick a lot of the ball and force mistakes, but Saturday was beyond a joke at times. Why when we were chasing points and Italy offered very little threat at the breakdown, were still kicking away so much ball? I find Farrell a very blunt instrument at 10 at times, I think he is great in high pressure matches where the difference might be a point here or there, but he lacks creativity when things need to be mixed up.

I know that England won the championship, but how peeved would you have been had Ireland beaten France by seven points? Italy are poor and should have been buried on Saturday, I know I would have found the France/ Ireland more comfortable viewing had England stuck another 10-15 points on the board.

Farrell is always going to be in the frame at 10 or 12.

Probably better at 12, with a playmaking 10. I would like to have seen Marcus smith in there over Umaga to be honest.

2 points re Farrell and kicking vs creativity. 1 is that when he plays with Ford hes also calling plays and reading the game, is Slade helping with that regard?

The other is that I think half the idea may have been that with the kicking they may have identified Furbank get his hands on the ball a lot more and be able to dictate. To say he vanished is an under statement. He got on the ball but was consistently flattened by the 1st man.

I genuinely think they may aswell stay with Daly if they want that type of Full back. Hes a talented player...and at least hes experienced in the role and set up.

GeordieFalcon wrote:From the brief highlights...SInkler looked like he wanted to be anywhere but on that pitch.

Has he lost some of his fire?

Sinckler was solid overall I thought. Carried little but England didn't go through phases. He scrummaged well, made a dominant tackle on a chase and made another really important chase on his own as well. Basically England kicked down the short side with no chasers set (Sinckler leading then about 15m of space to the winger), had Sinckler not chased very hard and forced the receiver to step infield rather than outside him the defence would have been in a lot of trouble.

I think Itoje shoving him was more a sign of him being told to push the tempo than anything. It could have been anyone there and Itoje probably would've done the same judging by how he came out from the break!

More than anything I'd describe the performance as rusty.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I genuinely think they may aswell stay with Daly if they want that type of Full back. Hes a talented player...and at least hes experienced in the role and set up.

Youngs or Farrell sitting deep in defence to field Italy's kicks was noticeable. I wouldn't be surprised if they took more than Furbank.

I rate Furbank but he currently hasn't shown anything at international level. He still only has only played 3 tests though. France and Italy where most the team were poor, plus the Murrayfield games in ridiculous conditions.

I've said before that I want a long term fullback with better defensive skills than Daly. As I repeat like a broken record though Daly at 15 has added a lot to the England attack, taking him out the starting XV is going to negatively effect the attack whilst new structures and partnerships develop.

I'd be interested in Daly or Marchant at 13. I really like JJ as a player and have frequently been a strong advocate for him, but I honestly think he's lost a bit in attack since returning from injury.

You could have had the All Blacks outside of Farrell on Saturday and the score wouldn't have been too different. too many kicks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:2 points re Farrell and kicking vs creativity. 1 is that when he plays with Ford hes also calling plays and reading the game, is Slade helping with that regard?

Would have thought so. Doesn't he lead the defence and act as the secondary playmaker for Chiefs? 

Farrell's style has always tended towards stand and deliver, he doesn't really take the ball to the line and use footwork ala Ford, Smith, Umaga. Simmonds is more like Farrell but does generally mix his play more. 

I can see Farrell taking the Barritt role on more and more with Sarries given the emergence of young Vunipola at 10 and the likelihood of Tompkins moving to Wales full time at some point.

Farrell took the safe option repeatedly after creating the opening try. Much like with Sarries he was happy to hide behind the defence and kick chase safe in the knowledge Italy would make mistakes and let us in. That will only work for so long at international level better teams won't make the mistakes.

Tompkins has gone, i know his on loan but he won't be back.

I wonder if they'll move Watson to FB over the next few games...and give Thorley a good run out...

Overall it was a poor performance by England whose game plan seemed to be to kick the ball as often as possible and hope Italy made a mistake.  I thought a lot of the kicking was aimless, but the Italian blocking of the England kick chase players was American Footballesque.  The fact the match officials seemed uninterested in doing anything about this, or the constant niggling by Italian players every time an England player gave away a penalty contributed to my overall dissatisfaction with the game.

I don’t think Kyle Sinkler has been at his best since the world cup final and when you have two other players in form - Stuart and Williams - I think he could have been rested. Maro was an annoying mixture of good and bad.  I don’t have statistics to hand to back this up, but he does seem to be a bit of a penalty magnet for Saracens and England in the way that James Haskell was often criticised.

Tom Curry for me was the pick of the England players, even though playing out of position at 6.  Sam Underhill had one or two good tackles, one good turnover but looks like England’s second best 7.  Billy carried for the most yards in the game but most of those were running back kicks rather than hard yards into traffic from the base of the scrum or around rucks.  His contribution in other parts of the game are limited so needs to shine ball in hand.  Can’t help but feel Sam Simmonds would have had a greater impact as he did against Italy in 2018.

Owen Farrell seems unable to assess a game and change tactics mid-half.  Ford seems to be the tactical brains of the partnership.  If you could mix the best parts of the two together you would have a top class player, but individually they are both flawed. I would prefer England to look at more rounded options at 10,.

I don’t want to slaughter Furbank but his main skills seem to be aimless kicking and running into brick walls.  I just don’t see what Eddie sees in him.

I would rank Eddie Jones poorly on the performance.  Whilst England missed the game against the Barbarians, tactically our game plan was awful.  I wasn’t happy as you can guess from the above with some of the team selections.  And why wait until the 79th minute to allow Tom Dunn onto the pitch?  The guy has been an unused sub and been in lots of squads.  It was a game we were winning and  not one where Jamie George was playing out of his skin.  Giving him 10/15 minutes would have been no hardship and what he deserves as probably the best hooker in the premiership in 2019/20.  He just seems to like playing mind games with players – yanking them off in games early, not allowing them game time or not even selecting them in the squad.  Can’t help but feel that this will come back to bite him before the next world cup.

Final whinge – can someone please tell me what Italy bring to the 6 Nations?  They pack their team with imports, play largely rubbish rugby and seldom win a game.  With no crowds, it isn’t even a good opportunity for a weekend away.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder if they'll move Watson to FB over the next few games...and give Thorley a good run out...

I hope so personally. I've usually been against Watson at fullback as I consider him one of the best all round wingers in rugby but with him playing well at 15 for Bath and having Thorley as a winger that offers something different I think it would benefit the team.

9.Mitchell 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Slade 13.JJ/Daly 14.Thorley 15.Watson

21.Robson 22.Lawrence 23.Marchant

I'd be interested to see something like that against Georgia. Mitchell, Thorley, Lawrence and Marchant are all players who could offer something different.

TightHEAD wrote:Tompkins has gone, i know his on loan but he won't be back.

He's got one more year on his contract after his loan ends and with Sarries likely back in the Prem by then and the WRU tight on cash I can't see a transfer going on. He'd still be eligible if back at Sarries because his contract was signed before he was capped. He'll just agree to head to a Welsh team after his final season at Sarries. Sarries won't release him for nothing and can use the time to look develop other options like Dom Morris or Lezowski when he gets back from a year in France.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder if they'll move Watson to FB over the next few games...and give Thorley a good run out...

Is Malins not in the squad anymore?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder if they'll move Watson to FB over the next few games...and give Thorley a good run out...

Is Malins not in the squad anymore?

He's still there. Personally I think he could add that running threat from 10 to much more benefit than having him at 15, while Watson is available. I want to see Thorley get a run out as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Tompkins has gone, i know his on loan but he won't be back.

He's got one more year on his contract after his loan ends and with Sarries likely back in the Prem by then and the WRU tight on cash I can't see a transfer going on. He'd still be eligible if back at Sarries because his contract was signed before he was capped. He'll just agree to head to a Welsh team after his final season at Sarries. Sarries won't release him for nothing and can use the time to look develop other options like Dom Morris or Lezowski when he gets back from a year in France.

Yep he probably realises he has a realistic shot of winning the premiership with Sarries. From what I've read he intends to return to his come club, not sure where thereafter. I still think he plays 12 (the second play-maker role) quite well, but defence isn't up to scratch yet. No need for Wales to put unnecessary pressure on him, the jury it still out on that one.

Ben Youngs shortlisted for player of the tournament.

Thorley or big Joe in at wing with Watson switched to FB. Works for me.

Thorley was trying too hard and only got one chance, where he got turned over. Would be good to see him get more game time. Who knows. Maybe someone might even pass to him as well.

Not so worried about the kicking game, but variety is key for me. Need to mix it up.

Gooseberry wrote:Ben Youngs shortlisted for player of the tournament.

It used to be anyone getting a motm was automatically on the shortlist, not sure if it's still the same. Ridiculous though isnt it. I wonder of he'll get more votes than Dupont.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Ben Youngs shortlisted for player of the tournament.

It used to be anyone getting a motm was automatically on the shortlist, not sure if it's still the same. Ridiculous though isnt it. I wonder of he'll get more votes than Dupont.

He was good in the last game before lockdown and Vs Italy. I doubt he'll get more votes than Dupont who should be the winner as he is the catalyst for a resurgent France.