Ireland Season 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

What do you want to see this season? What players do you want to see make the squad? Don't say Ian Madigan!.

As expected, really. I'm more optimistic than most but its a big step up from Italy.

mikey_dragon wrote:Good team. New guys on the bench but good to see them get their shot. Poor back-row replacement.

What about THAT offload, mikey.

See AWJ do offloads like that in every game...

I'm quietly confident Ireland will do France. Neither are hitting their straps yet, but the latter are certainly overrated. Not saying they can't be a lot better in future, and it's likely they will be. England are probably the best team by a fair distance but are unlikely to win the tournament.

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm quietly confident Ireland will do France. Neither are hitting their straps yet, but the latter are certainly overrated. Not saying they can't be a lot better in future, and it's likely they will be. England are probably the best team by a fair distance but are unlikely to win the tournament.

France are building nicely, are strong and have some excellent individual players - none more so than Dupont. Still very error prone however.

Dupont is class. They're in great hands as long as the half-backs and Ollivon are available.

I wish I was quietly or noisily confident. Ireland's current form is hard to gauge as Ireland weren't exactly tested against Italy but France looked like a team possessed at times against Wales. I know there are a good few more Irish gears but can they get then engaged? I dearly hope so but as it stands I'd be happy enough with a good performance, a win would be a lovely bonus and a bonus point win.....well that's only in dreams.

Well, I wasn't expecting a win but wasn't expecting that either. Time for Andy Farrell to have a rethink about things because we have seen no progress yet, even taking the injuries into account.

rugby racing and beer wrote:Stockdale at 15 has Henshaw at 15 written all over it. Stockdale's weaknesses as a winger are only going to be amplified at 15.

Is there no one to replace Kearney when Larmour's injured?

Thoughts on Stockdale @ 15?

I do not believe that Stockdale is a 15. I also believe he has bulked up too much to be an 11 or 14 if i am honest. He is a very good player, without a doubt but lately he seems to play more like a bosh 12 than a winger or fullback.

Ireland have other options at 15, Andrew Conway for one who is good under the high ball, has a decent boot, defensively aware and an excellent counter attacker.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Stockdale at 15 has Henshaw at 15 written all over it. Stockdale's weaknesses as a winger are only going to be amplified at 15.

Is there no one to replace Kearney when Larmour's injured?

Thoughts on Stockdale @ 15?

Terrible performance at the weekend. He was a complete disaster. Farrell may want to put him back on the horse again to try restore confidence in the player or else try Keenan there. Larmour won't be available until next Six Nations. With Lowe due to come on stream this week as residency qualified, Farrell will have other wing options too with Earls still in the picture until next June on central contract.

eirebilly wrote:I do not believe that Stockdale is a 15. I also believe he has bulked up too much to be an 11 or 14 if i am honest. He is a very good player, without a doubt but lately he seems to play more like a bosh 12 than a winger or fullback.

Ireland have other options at 15, Andrew Conway for one who is good under the high ball, has a decent boot, defensively aware and an excellent counter attacker.

Agree re Conway - would be more reliable, although lacking in height compared to Jacob/Hugo, but slightly taller than Jordan.

Are Addison or Haley contenders for FB spot? (No idea if they are fit or playing atm)


Is Sexton now a problem, surely his time is numbered?


Should Murray be in the starting XV?


A lot of questions mainly around the older guys who have been the main guys but are now perhaps shadows of their former selves.

Pot Hale wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I do not believe that Stockdale is a 15. I also believe he has bulked up too much to be an 11 or 14 if i am honest. He is a very good player, without a doubt but lately he seems to play more like a bosh 12 than a winger or fullback.

Ireland have other options at 15, Andrew Conway for one who is good under the high ball, has a decent boot, defensively aware and an excellent counter attacker.

Agree re Conway - would be more reliable, although lacking in height compared to Jacob/Hugo, but slightly taller than Jordan.

He doesn't have to be tall, he is very good under the high ball and has excellent counter attack abilities. He has Paynelike vision in attacking from 15.

LondonTiger wrote:Are Addison or Haley contenders for FB spot? (No idea if they are fit or playing atm)


Is Sexton now a problem, surely his time is numbered?


Should Murray be in the starting XV?


A lot of questions mainly around the older guys who have been the main guys but are now perhaps shadows of their former selves.

I don't think that Sexton's time is up just yet but i would relieve him of the burden of captaincy.
Murray's time is up, in fact i think it was up more than a year ago if i am honest.

I would suggest that the captaincy be given to Ryan, a great leader on this field (probably needs to be more vocal like CJ Stander) and a very calm head about him.

I'll steal a quote from Mikey in order to dampen your smugness.
"What’s the point in watching him play well for 2 years waiting for him to have a poor game so you can come back here and say “Haha I told you so.” ??"
Stockdale has a good outing against Italy and it's a flash in the pan. He has a bad day at the office (amongst a few others) and all of a sudden you return to the forum in full smug mode? Grow up!

He's hot and cold for both Ireland and Ulster at the moment so the performance at the weekend isn't something new. I don't know what's up with him right now, a lack of confidence, the constant and frankly disgusting social media battering he gets from moronic keyboard warriors or perhaps something much more personal. I do know he's a very talented player who will return to a more consistent form, I do know he's an exciting option at fullback and will learn from Saturday. He's had two starts at 15, one of them best left in the past and forgotten by him.

Addison is a sick-note for both Ulster and Ireland. An amazing talent when fit but amazing talents are of no use on the physio bench. Will he ever get over these injuries? Conway has plenty of experience at FB and is a very potent attacking threat from 15, he'd be my choice but Farrell and the IRFU want Stockdale to develop there it seems, hence his starts there for Ulster.
Rob Kearney's brain is hard to replace but he had plenty of shortcomings in his box of tricks, we certainly miss his defensive organisation but how do you replace that? Experience?

Hi Pete,

I said on another thread that Stockdale looks to have bulked up. Far too much for me and he seems to have lost that extra bit of speed he had. I actually think he is looking more and more like a 12 than a 11, 14 or 15 right now...

Still a class player though.

eirebilly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Are Addison or Haley contenders for FB spot? (No idea if they are fit or playing atm)


Is Sexton now a problem, surely his time is numbered?


Should Murray be in the starting XV?


A lot of questions mainly around the older guys who have been the main guys but are now perhaps shadows of their former selves.

I don't think that Sexton's time is up just yet but i would relieve him of the burden of captaincy.
Murray's time is up, in fact i think it was up more than a year ago if i am honest.

I would suggest that the captaincy be given to Ryan, a great leader on this field (probably needs to be more vocal like CJ Stander) and a very calm head about him.

I didn't think Murray (or Sexton for that matter) were bad at the weekend. The simple fact is the players aren't there at the minute. It's going to be a painful couple of years for Ireland while hopefully some of the younger generation starts to come through and step up.

LF4L,

Murray's distribution has been getting slower and slower. I do think that it is time for another 9 to be given a decent shot at the spot.

eirebilly wrote:Hi Pete,

I said on another thread that Stockdale looks to have bulked up. Far too much for me and he seems to have lost that extra bit of speed he had. I actually think he is looking more and more like a 12 than a 11, 14 or 15 right now...

Still a class player though.

I know what you mean Billy, he does seem to have lost an edge, not only in speed obviously but his entire game. The knock-ons he committed weren't caused by the number that was on his back, they're due to whatever factors are effecting his game at the minute. The social media hounding can't be of help to a young lad who's lost his mojo, or at least his consistent mojo. I know one thing for sure, he'll be back if there's any truth in class being permanent and form being temporary. He'd better get back, the amount of young talent coming through in Ireland is amazing. Watching Leinster and Munster especially with their youth on show has been eye-opening. John Hodnett is a player that will be seen in green sooner rather than later to name a few.

Personally I'd bite the bullet and put Sexton out to pasture. I'm not sure who we go with at 10 though. Murray I'd keep in the squad but not first choice.

Pete330v2 wrote:I'll steal a quote from Mikey in order to dampen your smugness.
"What’s the point in watching him play well for 2 years waiting for him to have a poor game so you can come back here and say “Haha I told you so.” ??"
Stockdale has a good outing against Italy and it's a flash in the pan. He has a bad day at the office (amongst a few others) and all of a sudden you return to the forum in full smug mode? Grow up!

He's hot and cold for both Ireland and Ulster at the moment so the performance at the weekend isn't something new. I don't know what's up with him right now, a lack of confidence, the constant and frankly disgusting social media battering he gets from moronic keyboard warriors or perhaps something much more personal. I do know he's a very talented player who will return to a more consistent form, I do know he's an exciting option at fullback and will learn from Saturday. He's had two starts at 15, one of them best left in the past and forgotten by him.

Addison is a sick-note for both Ulster and Ireland. An amazing talent when fit but amazing talents are of no use on the physio bench. Will he ever get over these injuries? Conway has plenty of experience at FB and is a very potent attacking threat from 15, he'd be my choice but Farrell and the IRFU want Stockdale to develop there it seems, hence his starts there for Ulster.
Rob Kearney's brain is hard to replace but he had plenty of shortcomings in his box of tricks, we certainly miss his defensive organisation but how do you replace that? Experience?

Maybe we need to seek out Rob's teacher, Girve the Swerve and have him teach our next generation of 15s.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:I'll steal a quote from Mikey in order to dampen your smugness.
"What’s the point in watching him play well for 2 years waiting for him to have a poor game so you can come back here and say “Haha I told you so.” ??"
Stockdale has a good outing against Italy and it's a flash in the pan. He has a bad day at the office (amongst a few others) and all of a sudden you return to the forum in full smug mode? Grow up!

He's hot and cold for both Ireland and Ulster at the moment so the performance at the weekend isn't something new. I don't know what's up with him right now, a lack of confidence, the constant and frankly disgusting social media battering he gets from moronic keyboard warriors or perhaps something much more personal. I do know he's a very talented player who will return to a more consistent form, I do know he's an exciting option at fullback and will learn from Saturday. He's had two starts at 15, one of them best left in the past and forgotten by him.

Addison is a sick-note for both Ulster and Ireland. An amazing talent when fit but amazing talents are of no use on the physio bench. Will he ever get over these injuries? Conway has plenty of experience at FB and is a very potent attacking threat from 15, he'd be my choice but Farrell and the IRFU want Stockdale to develop there it seems, hence his starts there for Ulster.
Rob Kearney's brain is hard to replace but he had plenty of shortcomings in his box of tricks, we certainly miss his defensive organisation but how do you replace that? Experience?

Maybe we need to seek out Rob's teacher, Girve the Swerve and have him teach our next generation of 15s.

What's he doing now? Is he coaching anywhere or has he just got the feet up?

Maine man wrote:Personally I'd bite the bullet and put Sexton out to pasture. I'm not sure who we go with at 10 though. Murray I'd keep in the squad but not first choice.

If he's not replaced soon we'll have to wheel him onto the pitch at the next world cup.
I'd like to see Harry Byrne given some time in over the next few games. He's impressed in blue and looks to have the raw talent to take it to the next level.
The IRFU has always been far too slow to introduce young talent, gradually drip feeding them into the national squad. Maybe it's time to throw caution to the wind. Pair up Byrne and Casey and let them have a lash.
If they're good enough they're old enough as they say and I think they are.

If this one off tournament isn't an opportunity to experiment I don't know what is.

Pete330v2 wrote:I'll steal a quote from Mikey in order to dampen your smugness.
"What’s the point in watching him play well for 2 years waiting for him to have a poor game so you can come back here and say “Haha I told you so.” ??"
Stockdale has a good outing against Italy and it's a flash in the pan. He has a bad day at the office (amongst a few others) and all of a sudden you return to the forum in full smug mode? Grow up

Ah yes, the great philosopher mikey...wise words indeed.    

Look, it's very simple. If people didn't respond with unmitigated tripe to many of my sensible predictions om this site there would be literally zero ammunition to come back and ask: was I wrong? It's very simple. I understand you don't like looking foolish so soon but really that's not my problem, and your weird indignation is completely misplaced.

Stockdale was guff. I'm not surprised. Oddly, I seem to be one of the few people to have seen it coming, but oh well, that's not my fault.

Now can we get back to discussing rugby without the character assasination?

Maine man wrote:Personally I'd bite the bullet and put Sexton out to pasture. I'm not sure who we go with at 10 though. Murray I'd keep in the squad but not first choice.

That needs to happen unfortunately. He's too big a character to just have around, let alone demote from captaincy.

There was always a risk going for Sexton as captain but I can understand why he picked him as a transitional figure to tide him along - the knives would have been out for Farrell had he failed given how Ireland dropped off in 2019 when he was part of the coaching set up.

Be ruthless. He needs to be gone by this time next year.

2 games is too early to judge Stockdale but he obviously has confidence issues. It's the basics that are letting him down because he can do all the hard stuff.


On Sexton, I had to laugh a few weeks ago at the 'off the ball' lads talking about him playing for another 7 years. Yes 7! That said, replacing him with Ross Byrne was strange. RB had a mare and isn't the answer to our problems. I would pick Carty as back up and have Ringrose kicking. It's looking bad for Carbery.

Harry Byrne from what I've seen of him looks a better player than his brother. What are Leinster fans opinion about him?

I'd love to see McCloskey get a couple of games this autumn with henshaw or Farrell outside him.

Maine man wrote:Harry Byrne from what I've seen of him looks a better player than his brother. What are Leinster fans opinion about him?

I'd love to see McCloskey get a couple of games this autumn with henshaw or Farrell outside him.

Harry Byrne looks like he should be the next in line for the 10 shirt from his Leinster appearances but he needs to be offered the chance sooner rather than later, let him leapfrog his brother and see what happens. I'd love to some brave decisions made for a change when it comes to young Irish talent, a step away from the conservative approach we've seen for decades. Sexton has been a great servant but investments in the future are what we should be looking at.
McCloskey would also bring a different dimension, I've always fancied seeing how he and his old buddy Farrell would fare as huge, skillful centre pairing. Bundi isn't the future there as good as he's been.

Pete330v2 wrote:I'll steal a quote from Mikey in order to dampen your smugness.
"What’s the point in watching him play well for 2 years waiting for him to have a poor game so you can come back here and say “Haha I told you so.” ??"
Stockdale has a good outing against Italy and it's a flash in the pan. He has a bad day at the office (amongst a few others) and all of a sudden you return to the forum in full smug mode? Grow up!

Yeah imagine doing it again but still defending your stance as if it was a perfectly normal way to behave, ridiculous.

Seen a bit of Stockdale at 15 and he’s been okay. Good to have that option there. He was a little off form since before he was playing fullback anyway. I still think you should look at bringing Zebo home. After Kearney and Larmour he looks like the best option.

Hopefully the rumours of POM getting offers overseas are true.

Stockdale was a very good full back at u20 level wasn't he? No idea how much he's played there for Ulster, but I definitely remember him playing there in one of the junior tournaments and standing out

I still think that Ireland missed a trick in not employing Vern Cotter after Schmidt. Its to late as he is with Fiji now but i feel he would be the perfect match for Ireland, keep Farrell on as defense coach. Farrell is not head coach material for me.

Cotter would have been an asset to nearly every single national side looking to recruit a head coach last year. Wales, Ireland, Scotland (lol), Australia, even NZ if they weren't so anal about their selection policies. It seems like Galthie is highly regarded and it's clearly showing, but Cotter would have been ideal for France at any point in the last 5 years.

Hopefully everyone else's loss will be Fiji's gain. Seeing them living up to their potential would be genuinely amazing. By rights they should be in the top 5 teams in world rugby.

Stockdale will either be Ireland's Cuthbert or Jonny May. It all depends on how he's managed, aptitude, courage etc.

Faffing about with him at 15 is a waste of talent that needs honing in the basic elements of the game.

Interestingly, Chris Ashton mentioned that wingers challenge for more aerial battles than full backs these days which is partly why he was moved to 15. However, it seems like that temptation to get bogged down by stats may have afflicted Farrell and the Ireland camp already, thinking that Stockdale can maximise his threats and minimise his weaknesses at 15 when it clearly produces the opposite as that's the nature of the position. Stockdale was exposed in the position last weekend and, in my view, it should have been the end of the experiment. Lamour will be starting there asap and I'm not sure the route Ireland want to take given two of their players have been mainstays for so long (Kearney, Earls) but a strike winger like Stockdale doesn't come along all that often. It's probably going to kill his Lions hopes, which will be a shame for him, but the sooner he's allowed to just work on his own weaknesses without the sideshow and disruption of being shifted around the backline, the better. I could see him being moved to 13 as an attacking/all out last gasp option but he has the potential to be a top winger. It would be a shame to see him turn in to another Cuthbert.

Unsurprising to see Lowe in the squad but great for the spectacle. There are few players who look as good with ball in hand but it'll be interesting to see how targeted his is by other teams putting high balls on him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unsurprising to see Lowe in the squad but great for the spectacle. There are few players who look as good with ball in hand but it'll be interesting to see how targeted his is by other teams putting high balls on him.

I would hope his skillset will transfer over very easily. He's an awesome player to watch, even if he was scoring against Ulster. It's not even just his skills but how he does everything like all his christmases....christmas's.....Xmases.... birthdays came at once with that grin on his face. Classy player, I hope he makes the 11 shirt his own.

Doesn't he have some kind of degenerative arthritic condition? Sorry to dampen things a bit but I thought I'd read that somewhere.

Stockdale finished with the most running meters of the 6N.

Pete330v2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Unsurprising to see Lowe in the squad but great for the spectacle. There are few players who look as good with ball in hand but it'll be interesting to see how targeted his is by other teams putting high balls on him.

I would hope his skillset will transfer over very easily. He's an awesome player to watch, even if he was scoring against Ulster. It's not even just his skills but how he does everything like all his christmases....christmas's.....Xmases.... birthdays came at once with that grin on his face. Classy player, I hope he makes the 11 shirt his own.

Doesn't he have some kind of degenerative arthritic condition? Sorry to dampen things a bit but I thought I'd read that somewhere.

Juvenile arthritis. Has dogged him over the years and one of the reasons he moved to earn money in case his career was cut short. He wasn’t meant to arrive in Leinster until 2018 but Lowe pushed for the move earlier.

Lowe does start.

Burns on the bench to. Hopefully will get decent game time.

In case people want the list;

Ireland Team & Replacements (v Wales, Guinness Series 2020, Autumn Nations Cup, Friday, November 13, 7.00pm, Aviva Stadium)
15. Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 30 caps
14. Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
13. Chris Farrell (Munster/Young Munster) 10 caps
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 45 caps
11. James Lowe (Leinster) uncapped
10. Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 93 caps CAPTAIN
9. Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 2 caps
1. Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 100 caps
2. Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 3 caps
3. Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 55 caps
5. James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 28 caps
6. Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 69 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 26 caps
8. Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 4 caps

Replacements

16. Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 3 caps
17. Ed Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
18. Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 11 caps
19. Quinn Roux (Connacht/Galwegians) 12 caps
20. Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 2 caps
21. Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 83 caps
22. Billy Burns (UIster) uncapped
23. Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 84 caps

A starting side with only Henderson, Healy, POM and Sexton with >50 caps. Could almost be described as a youthful selection.

Not the most exciting team but solid enough. I don't think wales are as bad as the hype. Scotland should have beaten us at home too.

I think it is good picks
Now is the time to give people a fair go and remind people that they aren't assured of their place.

With the strenght we have at provincial level we should have two legitimate people for each position.

Realistically it would be the Leinster player in that position and someone from the other three.

For most positions we have it except 10 and 15. Problem is that the current players have to do alot to play them off the team.

I don't want to see Ryan start every game to see how others do starting so we don't get caught by injuries.

England should face our top team
Wales should face a 1.5 team (probably strong pack)
Georgia should face our second team
Scotland (most likely) should face the other 1.5 team (probably strong backs).

We saw with Toner how poor or lineout is now because he had to be there to make it work. When he was out you had two guys who suddenly had to do something they couldn't.

For the 4/5 strong centres we have I don't think we gain anything by only having Henshaw and Ringrose start all the big games. Ringrose isn't the only skilful (but is the best) so let's not use the others as bashers.

profitius wrote:Not the most exciting team but solid enough. I don't think wales are as bad as the hype. Scotland should have beaten us at home too.

You better believe it.

mikey_dragon wrote:

profitius wrote:Not the most exciting team but solid enough. I don't think wales are as bad as the hype. Scotland should have beaten us at home too.

You better believe it.

I read an interesting bit on Wales' defence was actually better than France and Ireland and their problem isn't defence but attack.

If Ireland believe they are as good as they think they are should be winning this game.

I hope Wales had a right go at Stockdale at 15 however, based on what we've seen so far, there's very little tactical rugby being played so far this year unless it's already been learned by rote (i.e. Exeter). The internationals up in the NH have looked incredibly poor standard but hopefully Biggar/Sheedy can cause him some problems.

Brendan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

profitius wrote:Not the most exciting team but solid enough. I don't think wales are as bad as the hype. Scotland should have beaten us at home too.

You better believe it.

I read an interesting bit on Wales' defence was actually better than France and Ireland and their problem isn't defence but attack.

If Ireland believe they are as good as they think they are should be winning this game.

The defence was good. It dealt with everything Scotland threw at it bar one maul peel. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Scotland are not a good team and a Welsh team in the pits handled them with reasonable comfort. The issue was the completely toothless attacking display, the lack of confidence and desire to just stumble to a win, the wind ruining attacking lineouts in the first half, and then Brace taking over from Clownshoes as an embarrassment to refereeing. When Wales were in the Scottish 22 they marched them back over the gainline each time and looked liked they'd score but for the terrible adjudication killing a great attacking platform in each half (not much to write home about when you're producing so little over 80 mins, tho).

That won't work against Ireland, they'll have to actually do something with the ball to get through the Irish defence. I can't see a classic game of rugby at the weekend, more like one for the purists.

Leavy's first start last night and won man of the match. Very impressive performance although not back to his best yet.


Gavin Coombes won't be too far off the 6 nations squad. He's a bit of a freak.


Harry Byrne and Ben Healy are going well.
Didn't see the Ulster match yet.

Looks as though Ulster and Munster have an international standard pack but the players are being kept out by Leinster.

Ross Byrne cannot play for Ireland again, he's just shipped on evey single ball no creativity at all