Ireland Season 2020/21

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What do you want to see this season? What players do you want to see make the squad? Don't say Ian Madigan!.

Yeah I figured he was talking about ireland past, not ireland present. Farrell is kinda Schmidt Mark II, but if he isn’t at least looking into getting Zebo back home then he’s not a good coach. Ireland don’t seem that blessed on the wing right now either with some players’ form varying, Zebo covers the back 3.

Pot Hale wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:[youtube]UYob7Baz0a4

"Complete rubbish"

"I wasn't happy going to international camp. I'd stay in my room all day. It wasn't a good place for me mentally going there towards the end."

Ok 'man'.

Zebo’s dissatisfaction with test life under Schmidt is long documented and known.  Interpreting this to assume he doesn’t want to play under Farrell is not proven. And he’d have to be back playing in Ireland before that happens.  

As for your comments about the other players - it sounds like you don’t follow or watch Irish rugby much.

That's a pretty liberal interpretation. Nothing there suggests he wants to play international rugby again. It's not as if he's hinting about wanting to leave France.

I'm surprised more players don't take this option. Particularly in the NH. There's more money to be made in France for starters, a lot less pressure, by the looks of things more enjoyment. As said, Ireland are particularly poor at cultivating talented players - whatever you might want to believe - for the sake of their own pseudo version of Kiwi rugby's 'stay at home to play at home rule'. The problem is the Leinster players look amazing when they're playing for Leinster, playing their style, dominating up front and in the contact, but on the international stage it doesn't help turn Ireland in to a team that can play the same way. So the talented players overlook in Irish club rugby would, ironically, help them on the test stage because they have the talent to unlock opposition teams, but Schmidt choce steady, boring players instead...and we all saw how that worked out in 2019. Ireland do seem uniquely poor at utilising their flair players, but even so, I'm surprised more players don't turn down test rugby for the sake of a more harmonious team environment at club level. Perhaps it's a sign that some players clearly aren't comfortable backing their ability outside their comfort zone - Dan Lydiate was a monumental failure in France, for instance, and even Gethin Jenkins failed due to his set piece skills. So, I'm surprised more players don't do with Zebo does, but perhaps it's a sign that not many players can stand on their own two feet like Zebo and use their skills to carve out a good club career in France.

There's no sign he's going to play international rugby again and I would be genuinely surprised if he does. It sounds like wishful thinking on your part tbh. Once bitten, twice shy as well. It's not like Andy Farrell is the kind of guy a player will say 'oh yes, great, I'd LOVE to come and play rugby for him', either.

I've seen more than enough Irish rugby to be confident in my assessment. Their failure in 2019 was no real surprise to me, although the extent and depth of their inability was somewhat shocking. I'm just surprised more people - in media, pundits etc - weren't saying the same. I think Mike Tindall was the only one to query their quality in 2018.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54598250

Totally agree with Steenson here. Ireland can't do what NZ and England do, they have neither the talent nor the depth. Obviously it makes Irish club rugby as strong as it can possibly be but it hurts the international team as playing within the Irish system is not the be all and end all and doesn't develop players to their full potential, particularly in terms of backing up performances week in, week out and building durability.

Level 5 restrictions to be introduced in Ireland from Wed midnight but elite sports will still be allowed go ahead for GAA, soccer and rugby.

Farrell’s options for fullback are changing with Larmour out for 4 months. Keenan and Daly may come more into the frame for remaining 6N and Nations Cup matches.

rugby racing and beer wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54598250

Totally agree with Steenson here. Ireland can't do what NZ and England do, they have neither the talent nor the depth. Obviously it makes Irish club rugby as strong as it can possibly be but it hurts the international team as playing within the Irish system is not the be all and end all and doesn't develop players to their full potential, particularly in terms of backing up performances week in, week out and building durability.

Can't change a system for one or two players. If that was the case it could really weaken the provinces. The Irish system works well. Team Ireland could be stronger but the provinces also need to be looked after.


I do think though that in Steensons case he didn't get an opportunity in Ireland so he should have been exempt.


I'd agree that easy wins for Leinster doesn't help Ireland.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yeah I figured he was talking about ireland past, not ireland present. Farrell is kinda Schmidt Mark II, but if he isn’t at least looking into getting Zebo back home then he’s not a good coach. Ireland don’t seem that blessed on the wing right now either with some players’ form varying, Zebo covers the back 3.

Bit unfair on Farrell. Hes only after 3 games so far.

profitius wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54598250

Totally agree with Steenson here. Ireland can't do what NZ and England do, they have neither the talent nor the depth. Obviously it makes Irish club rugby as strong as it can possibly be but it hurts the international team as playing within the Irish system is not the be all and end all and doesn't develop players to their full potential, particularly in terms of backing up performances week in, week out and building durability.

Can't change a system for one or two players. If that was the case it could really weaken the provinces. The Irish system works well. Team Ireland could be stronger but the provinces also need to be looked after.


I do think though that in Steensons case he didn't get an opportunity in Ireland so he should have been exempt.


I'd agree that easy wins for Leinster doesn't help Ireland.

I would have thought repeated failure at rugby world cups would have been the reason to change, not 'one or two players'.

Tbh I can see the other side, how there is a cultural aspect to Ireland keeping things internal, even if the rate of imports does make a bit of a mockery of that both in the provinces nd the national team. Ireland probably cannot have their cake and eat it and given where they are, expecting them to compete with the best in the world is a step too far. That said, I've said it before and I'll say it again, James Ryan would be a better player for going to play in England. Not even with the biggest or best clubs, either. Just having to front up week in, week out, at least for a few years.

I can see how keeping the provinces strong is the IRFU's main priority. They're well supported, the Aviva only holds, what, 50,000? If Wales are the opposite of Ireland, draining the club game from regions to grassroots for the sake of the national side and the gate money in the MS, then Ireland are the opposite, prioritising the provinces which hampers the national team. Neither is perfect but if I were looking at it from a head coach perspective, 100% I would argue for players playing overseas and testing themselves personally and professionally outside the comfort zone, where weaknesses can be papered over/forgiven/ignored.

When is the team announced?

rugby racing and beer wrote:

profitius wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54598250

Totally agree with Steenson here. Ireland can't do what NZ and England do, they have neither the talent nor the depth. Obviously it makes Irish club rugby as strong as it can possibly be but it hurts the international team as playing within the Irish system is not the be all and end all and doesn't develop players to their full potential, particularly in terms of backing up performances week in, week out and building durability.

Can't change a system for one or two players. If that was the case it could really weaken the provinces. The Irish system works well. Team Ireland could be stronger but the provinces also need to be looked after.


I do think though that in Steensons case he didn't get an opportunity in Ireland so he should have been exempt.


I'd agree that easy wins for Leinster doesn't help Ireland.

I would have thought repeated failure at rugby world cups would have been the reason to change, not 'one or two players'.

Tbh I can see the other side, how there is a cultural aspect to Ireland keeping things internal, even if the rate of imports does make a bit of a mockery of that both in the provinces nd the national team. Ireland probably cannot have their cake and eat it and given where they are, expecting them to compete with the best in the world is a step too far. That said, I've said it before and I'll say it again, James Ryan would be a better player for going to play in England. Not even with the biggest or best clubs, either. Just having to front up week in, week out, at least for a few years.

I can see how keeping the provinces strong is the IRFU's main priority. They're well supported, the Aviva only holds, what, 50,000? If Wales are the opposite of Ireland, draining the club game from regions to grassroots for the sake of the national side and the gate money in the MS, then Ireland are the opposite, prioritising the provinces which hampers the national team. Neither is perfect but if I were looking at it from a head coach perspective, 100% I would argue for players playing overseas and testing themselves personally and professionally outside the comfort zone, where weaknesses can be papered over/forgiven/ignored.

The IRFU don't keep the provinces strong.

...of course they do, with a little help from the Irish tax system.

Irish Times has their usual possible Ireland 23 from Gerry Thornley published this morning in advance of team announcement today. His take is:

Ireland v Italy (possible): Stockdale; Keenan, Ringrose, Aki, Conway; Sexton (capt), Murray; Healy, Heffernan, John Ryan, Beirne, James Ryan, Stander, van der Flier, Doris. Replacements: Herring, Ed Byrne, Porter, Roux/Dillane, O’Mahony, Gibson-Park, Ross Byrne, Henshaw.

They also got Brian O'Driscoll to give his take on the midfield combos of Aki, Farrell, Henshaw, McCloskey and Ringrose. His view was for the Italy game is that it should be Aki and Ringrose as the better attacking partnership, but Henshaw was the better defensive partner where that might be required for certain games.

Announced
Ireland: Jacob Stockdale, Andrew Conway, Garry Ringrose, Bundee Aki, Hugo Keenan, Johnny Sexton, Conor Murray; Cian Healy, Rob Herring, Andrew Porter, Tadhg Beirne, James Ryan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Dave Heffernan, Ed Byrne, Finlay Bealham, Ultan Dillane, Peter O'Mahony, Jamison Gibson-Park, Ross Byrne, Robbie Henshaw.

Gerry mustn't have a source in the room at selection time anymore.

Is it weird that I'd prefer Conway or Keenan at fullback over Stockdale. The lad is great on the wing and works best there on most occasions.
Centres is an acceptable choice.
Murray not there on form.
Healy is a penalty liability at the scrum.
Beirne and Ryan as a lock partnership should play well.
Backrow I like the look of it, Connors needs a big performance.
Is Henshaw a good backline option off the bench, feels like a lot of rejigging would be required on injuries.
Bench doesn't look like game changers or game finishers.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Is it weird that I'd prefer Conway or Keenan at fullback over Stockdale. The lad is great on the wing and works best there on most occasions.
Centres is an acceptable choice.
Murray not there on form.
Healy is a penalty liability at the scrum.
Beirne and Ryan as a lock partnership should play well.
Backrow I like the look of it, Connors needs a big performance.
Is Henshaw a good backline option off the bench, feels like a lot of rejigging would be required on injuries.
Bench doesn't look like game changers or game finishers.

Stockdale has taken a bit of time to hit his stride after the restart but it was his last performance, which was from 15 that really saw him come alive again and he thrives on the chance counter-attacking from fullback. If he remains on that kind of form he'll cause opposition teams plenty of headaches in this run of games. I prefer to see Conway retained on the wing where he does the most damage.
Gibson-Park and Byrne coming off the bench should bring a bit of impact, both being more than capable to add a bit of zip.

The selection, you would like to think, will be more than enough to get the bonus point win, I just hope the Italians don't bring that Benetton game, that can be difficult enough to contain.

Stockdale at 15 has Henshaw at 15 written all over it. Stockdale's weaknesses as a winger are only going to be amplified at 15.

Is there no one to replace Kearney when Larmour's injured?

rugby racing and beer wrote:Stockdale at 15 has Henshaw at 15 written all over it. Stockdale's weaknesses as a winger are only going to be amplified at 15.

Is there no one to replace Kearney when Larmour's injured?

Have you seen Stockdale play at 15?

Pot Hale wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Stockdale at 15 has Henshaw at 15 written all over it. Stockdale's weaknesses as a winger are only going to be amplified at 15.

Is there no one to replace Kearney when Larmour's injured?

Have you seen Stockdale play at 15?  

No.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Stockdale at 15 has Henshaw at 15 written all over it. Stockdale's weaknesses as a winger are only going to be amplified at 15.

Is there no one to replace Kearney when Larmour's injured?

Have you seen Stockdale play at 15?  

No.

I see. Well, let's see how he gets on so.

I watched highlights of him playing there for Ulster.

As far as I'm aware he's not played a full test against proper opposition at 15? Happy to be corrected but until then, I'll stick with my comparison to Henshaw.

rugby racing and beer wrote:I watched highlights of him playing there for Ulster.

As far as I'm aware he's not played a full test against proper opposition at 15? Happy to be corrected but until then, I'll stick with my comparison to Henshaw.

Well at least you watched highlights.   It’s a start.  Keep up the good work. As a new Ireland fan, you may be disappointed by some of the early games but stick with it.

I don't really see your comparison between Stockdale at FB and Henshaw. Maybe you should watch his last game against the Ospreys playing at 15. It's much more Stockdale like than a lot of his recent showings and as I said, hopefully he's starting to play himself back into the form we've become accustomed.
None of the current crop can replace Kearney, the guy had a gift for the 15 shirt like very few in the world. He had his own doubters but as a FB he's going to be fiercely difficult to replace.

Pot Hale wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:I watched highlights of him playing there for Ulster.

As far as I'm aware he's not played a full test against proper opposition at 15? Happy to be corrected but until then, I'll stick with my comparison to Henshaw.

Well at least you watched highlights.   It’s a start.  Keep up the good work.    As a new Ireland fan, you may be disappointed by some of the early games but stick with it.

What an odd tone and attitude to take.

I can only interpret this desperte need for performtive patronising to be some kind of displacement from 'real life'. It must feel pretty good to play make believe on the internet, talking down at people with a false sense of superiority. Must be something that's triggering that because it's an odd response to receive on the basis of the actul info.

I'll repeat the actul rugby stuff again, though. Stockdale will be another Henshaw at 15 i.e. failure. Put him on the wing and let him get better.

Stockdale can transform irelands attack from fullback. Looking forward to seeing him there.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:I watched highlights of him playing there for Ulster.

As far as I'm aware he's not played a full test against proper opposition at 15? Happy to be corrected but until then, I'll stick with my comparison to Henshaw.

Well at least you watched highlights.   It’s a start.  Keep up the good work.    As a new Ireland fan, you may be disappointed by some of the early games but stick with it.

What an odd tone and attitude to take.

I can only interpret this desperte need for performtive patronising to be some kind of displacement from 'real life'. It must feel pretty good to play make believe on the internet, talking down at people with a false sense of superiority. Must be something that's triggering that because it's an odd response to receive on the basis of the actul info.

I'll repeat the actul rugby stuff again, though. Stockdale will be another Henshaw at 15 i.e. failure. Put him on the wing and let him get better.

Well done, you've just described yourself very accurately there.
Your 'actual info' is based on your opinion which itself is based on very limited knowledge of the subject matter though a few highlights. What an odd person!

Another odd comment. Proof will be in the pudding. Let's check back here in 2 years time. See how it works out.

Decent first half back.
Good to see Keenan on the scoresheet. Shame he didn’t get the hatrick.

Good run from Stockdale to set it up.

Wrap up the bonus point in the second half, then onto Paris next Saturday.

rugby racing and beer wrote:Another odd comment. Proof will be in the pudding. Let's check back here in 2 years time. See how it works out.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Those ITV commentators are terrible

Ireland win with a +33 point margin.  It should have been 40 points except after the clock went red, they allowed the Italians to score again, instead of kicking ball dead.  

Stockdale and Keenan played well on their debuts in position.  With Lowe coming on stream in November, it gives Farrell some good selection headaches for the back three.  

Dave Heffernan looked hungry when he came on.  Good to see some competition developing at hooker.  

Gibson Park certainly added zip when he came on.  McGrath, Cooney and Marmion are going to have their work cut out.  Hopefully McCloskey and Farrell get a chance in midfield for the Nov tests.  

Can’t see this side beating France next week though on that performance.

Thats the most aggressive I've seen Ireland defense for a long time as well and fair play to Connor he is a tackling machine.

Pot Hale wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Another odd comment. Proof will be in the pudding. Let's check back here in 2 years time. See how it works out.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

What’s the point in watching him play well for 2 years waiting for him to have a poor game so you can come back here and say “Haha I told you so.” ??

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Another odd comment. Proof will be in the pudding. Let's check back here in 2 years time. See how it works out.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

What’s the point in watching him play well for 2 years waiting for him to have a poor game so you can come back here and say “Haha I told you so.” ??

Having a good night, are we?

Pretty obvious. 2 years is a great time to judge something over. Far better than reactive opinions derived from flash in the pan performances or temporary form.

Simply stuff, lad. Come on. We can make it 3 years if you really want?

Plenty to be positive about. Keenan and Connors were 2 of the best players on the pitch. We saw some nice attacking rugby and the players had the freedom to try things and they looked like they were enjoying it for the first time in a long time.


Murray didn't box kick too much and not every move went through Sexton which is a change.


Stockdale mixed the bad with the brilliant.
Conway 3/5
Aki 4/5
Henshaw 4/5
Keenan 5/5
Murray 4/5
Sexton 4/5

Healy 3/5
Herring 3/5
Porter 4/5
Ryan 3/5
Beirne 4/5
Doris 3/5
Connors 5/5
Stander 4/5

The subs were solid. POM gave the offload of the century but made a mess of the restart which is unlike him.

Ah, we're back on the Ireland thread.    

"Ireland and France will know what is required after the England-Italy game and I cannot for the life of me see Ireland coming away with a bonus point, or even a win, as conventional wisdom would suggest they travel in hope, which in this case is just a forlorn aspiration with a little sprig of parsley sitting on top."

That sums up Neil Francis' column in the Sunday Indo.   Probably about right.

Ringrose has broken his jaw.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ringrose has broken his jaw.

No offense but its an interesting choice of words. What did he do did he get really angry and punch himself in the face?

Well he did charge head first for charge down so kinda.

A good first outing for the men in green for the resumption of the 6N's. Not perfect, dropped balls from Stockdale etc., but certainly have shown enough that they should be able to give France a game in Paris. Will they score 4 tries and get the win? Not sure, but it could be a cracker. The match commentators for the Paris game were waxing about how amazing Teddy Thomas is and yet he couldn't make the Racing team for the European cup final. It was probably due to his laissez faire attitude to defending that the smaller but more defensively oriented Du Pichot was picked. If Sexton can target Thomas then Ireland may get some change from from his will I, wont I make the tackle defensive attitude.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ringrose has broken his jaw.

Fiddlesticks! That is bad news. So Farrell or Henshaw starting at 13.

Wonder if Leavy will be tried? Or does Covid squad bubble prevent him joining up?

Can't see Leavy getting a look in,he's being eased in very gently and we have more than enough quality at 7 to afford him all the time he needs.

I can't see Ireland even winning in France let alone getting a BP win. The French look much, much sharper than Ireland currently are but there is a case for only playing what's in front of you. It would have been difficult for the team to raise their game much when faced with an Italy that's gone backwards in recent years. It was however a handy run-out and I'm sure there'll be a number of points to be honed this week. That pack is more than sound and we've enough cover in the midfield to make up for the loss of Ringrose. Henshaw is excellent and is being pushed for the shirt by the likes of Farrell who I think would be a perfect fit for the France game. The back 3 didn't look like a brand new unit, Conway was......Conway, always very dangerous and more than reliable. Keenan was excellent but he's been in that kind of form for Leinster so it's not a surprise and Stockdale, after the initial foot in touch and knock on (who hasn't made mistakes in the first game back for Ireland), silenced a lot of doubters. He has shown what he can do from 15 many times for Ulster so, like Keenan, it's no surprise even if Profitius didn't deem him worthy of a rating.
Most of all, Ireland playing with the shackles off was so refreshing. Joe was a great coach but for example, there were more offloads in that game than Joe's entire tenure. There were more offloads in one move from O'Mahony that in Joe's tenure I hope that less formulated, less structured kind of gameplan continues, it's much harder for opposition to work out the way that Joe's way had been. In Andy we trust ??????

I'd give Stockdale a 4/5, Pete.

I rewatched the match again and he looked even better the second time. He's a massive improvement on Larmour and it's great to see us have a lethal attacking fullback. Hopefully it'll do his confidence good.


I was delighted with the teams performance. There were errors but the new style of play was great to see. It's what I was hoping to see when I heard Mike Catt was the new attack coach. The players looked like they were enjoying it too.

profitius wrote:I'd give Stockdale a 4/5, Pete.

I rewatched the match again and he looked even better the second time. He's a massive improvement on Larmour and it's great to see us have a lethal attacking fullback. Hopefully it'll do his confidence good.


I was delighted with the teams performance. There were errors but the new style of play was great to see. It's what I was hoping to see when I heard Mike Catt was the new attack coach. The players looked like they were enjoying it too.

Didn't they??
They do look to have a huge pressure taken off them and are enjoying being allowed to play again. Obviously it might look a bit different against better opposition but they've been released from Joe's cage, at least for that one game. Let's hope they can expand on that even more for next week.
They always say that if you silence the French crowd you've own half the battle so we're already half way there

Have Ireland got enough power up front to match the French 8, thats the problem. Ireland at both National and Provincial level have struggled with power sides and thats what France are up front - I like Taigh Berene but he's relatively small in International Terms. The back row looks equipped to handle the game but the front 5 without Furlough and Henderson are a worry again.

stevetynant wrote:Have Ireland got enough power up front to match the French 8, thats the problem. Ireland at both National and Provincial level have struggled with power sides and thats what France are up front - I like Taigh Berene but he's relatively small in International Terms. The back row looks equipped to handle the game but the front 5 without Furlough and Henderson are a worry again.

Yep agreed. Not enough power. Baird or Roux would better on this than Beirne, but they’re out. France May yet lose Le Roux through suspension but France still have a substantial edge.

Could be a long painful day at the office.

Teddy Thomas is out with injury it’s been announced.  And question mark over fullback, Bouthier.  

Bernard le Roux citing hearing this afternoon.  

Keith Earls and Ronan Kelleher may come through training after injury recovery and be available for selection.  Cooney joins the squad as Gibson-Park has possible hamstring injury.

Ireland team out.

Same as before with Henshaw in for Ringrose and Farrell onto bench at 23.

Ireland: Jacob Stockdale, Andrew Conway, Robbie Henshaw, Bundee Aki, Hugo Keenan, Johnny Sexton, Conor Murray; Cian Healy, Rob Herring, Andrew Porter, Tadhg Beirne, James Ryan, Caelan Doris, Will Connors, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Dave Heffernan, Ed Byrne, Finlay Bealham, Ultan Dillane, Peter O'Mahony, Jamison Gibson-Park, Ross Byrne, Chris Farrell.

Good team. New guys on the bench but good to see them get their shot. Poor back-row replacement.