Pro 12 plus maybe Friends 20/21

First topic message reminder :

As one season finishes it seems the new one seems to start sooner each year.  Here is the breakdown of teams over the last three years. Places (based on league points) and points are order 19/20, 18/19, 17/18

Leinster (Champions and clearly the team to beat)
Place 1, 3, 2, Average 2
Points 69, 76, 70 total 215
Always have finished top of their conference and winners for the last three years
Goal - Win, anything else is failure

Munster
Place 3, 2, 4 Average 3
Points 51, 77, 69 Total 197
Yet another table where Munster fall short yet again.  Each of the last three years have been knocked out by Leinster
Goal - Top Conference (2nd in league) to finally avoid Leinster in the playoffs to make the final

Glasgow
Place 7, 1, 1 Average 3
Points 38, 81, 76 Total 195
Was this year a WC hangover or is it the start of the slide back to the chasing pack.  Losing key players is taking it's toll. No longer the best team in Scotland.
Goal - Win back dominance in Scotland

Ulster
Place 4, 4, 6 Average 4.33
Points 44, 63, 62 Total 169
Improving each year and seem like one of the teams to challange Leinster.
Goal - Get back to the final

Scarlets
Place 4, 9, 3 Average 5.33
Points 47, 52, 70 Total 169
Last year killed them but on their day a match of anyone. Best team usually in Wales.
Goal - make the final

Edinburgh
Place 2, 10, 5 Average 5.66
Total 51, 51, 68 Total 170
Like Scarlets last year killed them.  Have conquered Scotland and have one of the best coaches in the league.  Possibly the 2nd best team for next season if Cockers has cracked rotation.
Goal - make the final

Connacht
Place 6, 5, 10 Average 7
Points 40, 61, 39 Total 140
Excluding the first year under Keane have been playoff contenders each year.  But they need to push on and not just be happy fighting for a playoff sport.
Have to push for Top 4

Benetton
Place 8, 7, 7 Average 7.33
Points 36, 57, 55 Total 148
Consistency has got them middle of the table which is a good place to build from rather than just the place to stay.
Goal - time to push for Top 6

Blues
Place 9, 8, 8 Average  8.33
Points 33, 54, 54 Total 141
Again consistent in their place but have fallen down and past by their peers.  Have to be looking over their shoulders at Dragons and Zebre.
Goal - time to get above 8th.

Ospreys
Place 12, 6, 9 Average 9
Points 17, 58, 54 Total 119
Which year was the anomaly, when they finished 6th or 12th.  An old team who live on past glories. Last year 6th may have been down to the drop in form of Scarlets and Edinburgh.
Goal - stop the rot

Dragons
Place 10, 11, 12 Average 11
Points 24, 26, 20 Total 70
Slowly improving.  No longer unable to win away from home and building nicely.
Goal - has to be 9th

Zebre
Place 11, 12, 11 Average 11.33
Points 21, 19, 36 Total 76
Have alot of young players coming through.  Last year wasn't great but the other two were improvements on previous years.
Goal - Finished 10th and pick up some big wins.

Well that try just sums things up. Aimless play at times.

Another crap ref tonight.

26 - 18 to Dragons. Some shocking pub rugby from us, don’t anyone try and tell me otherwise because we got the bonus point .

Under pressure as we were, then it’s a great BP. Made ourselves favourites and didn’t just win, we got a BP. Have to credit us there.

Dragons don’t manage a favourites tag well. Yet, we exceeded expectations tonight. We only had to win. Got a BP. Lots of work ons, but so be it. That’s good. Dean Ryan is honest and has already spoken of what went wrong tonight.

Happy enough with the result I guess, job done. The performance for a lot of match leaves more to be desired. Poor kicking and too much kicking from 9, glaring errors from 10 which could have been avoided. That and the dropped balls you don't even see at amateur level these days, you see it at pub level though. Very frustrating watching that whilst knowing these guys are pro.

Looking at the positives... Roberts didn't put a foot wrong, what a guy to have on board. Would be amazing if we get Tomane to partner him next season . And Joe Davies looks like our most improved player, yikes.

Well done Dragon, got the job done. Picked up the BP and stopped Zebre getting one.

Seems like I got the Benetton game right were it is close for the first half. Leinster get ahead and Benetton pull them back. Ulster and Ospreys still tight

Leinster just about get the BP at the end. Benetton for the second week in a row are short the 4th try for the TBP which would have got them the TBP too. Interested to see how Scarlets go though with Italy playing the day after might not be great.

Second week in a row Ulster win comfortably and an Irish player sent off in Wales. Ospreys seemed to return to normal service messing up themselves rather than Ulster being great at defence.

mikey_dragon wrote:Another crap ref tonight.

Let me guess. He was Irish or Peter O’Mahony?

Pot Hale wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Another crap ref tonight.

Let me guess.  He was Irish or Peter O’Mahony?  

One of the overlooked benefits of SA teams joining is we will now have 4-5 SA refs so that Scotland and Italy are under as much pressure to produce refs

Brendan wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Another crap ref tonight.

Let me guess.  He was Irish or Peter O’Mahony?  

One of the overlooked benefits of SA teams joining is we will now have 4-5 SA refs so that Scotland and Italy are under as much pressure to produce refs

Was thinking the same, but it appears that SA refs in SA get accused of bias https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesouthafrican.com/sport/rugby/super-rugby-sa-teams-favoured-by-home-referees-study/amp/

But if the Pro 14/16 has neutral refs, this won't be an issue, and with more refs it will make it easier to have neutral refs at games.

Pot Hale wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Another crap ref tonight.

Let me guess.  He was Irish or Peter O’Mahony?  

Irish.

Brendan wrote:Leinster just about get the BP at the end.  Benetton for the second week in a row are short the 4th try for the TBP which would have got them the TBP too.  Interested to see how Scarlets go though with Italy playing the day after might not be great.

Second week in a row Ulster win comfortably and an Irish player sent off in Wales.  Ospreys seemed to return to normal service messing up themselves rather than Ulster being great at defence.

Didn’t see the sending off, must have been towards the end. I think Ospreys are a lot better in defence and attack compared to last season, but not that smart and dropped the ball too many times. Ulster were good, and this is a great start to the season for them so far.

A pretty handy win for Cardiff. Jarrod Evans played well. The BP didn’t seem on for a while, so credit to them for getting it.

Henderson’s red was so brainless.

Jarrod is a good player, unlucky not to be in the Wales squad. Two scrappy wins from Blues, might struggle against the bigger teams - like previous seasons.

Good win for the blues

Pick up the BP with a run at the end.

That's two wins for them which is big

RiscaGame wrote:Henderson’s red was so brainless.

Was the ref Irish?

Munster get a late win again to get their second win. Are they struggling and just getting over the line or is it the never say die coming back

Brendan wrote:Munster get a late win again to get their second win.  Are they struggling and just getting over the line or is it the never say die coming back

Munster are Shiite end of. We are a semi final team. Incapable of doing any better

I know it's early doors but I do think this goes to show what a few of us were saying about how to 'band' the teams in the league. Edinburgh aren't all that to be honest, I think they've reached their peak, Blues and Ospreys have been underperforming for years.

rugby racing and beer wrote:I know it's early doors but I do think this goes to show what a few of us were saying about how to 'band' the teams in the league. Edinburgh aren't all that to be honest, I think they've reached their peak, Blues and Ospreys have been underperforming for years.

Blues seem to be doing better but at the same time let's see how away from hone not against Zebre goes.

Ospreys not so sure. They won big against Edinbrugh in terrible conditions then beat themselves and looked completely second best against Ulster at home. If the weather hadn't been so bad in Scotland would Edinburgh have done so poorly.

Still early doors and probably will need to wait a few more rounds.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

Brendan wrote:Munster get a late win again to get their second win.  Are they struggling and just getting over the line or is it the never say die coming back

Munster are Shiite end of.  We are a semi final team. Incapable of doing any better

That is all subjective. Being a semi final team doesn't make them bad. There are only a few teams in Europe better than them. Over the last three years the only teams to knock them out of the Pro14 semi is Leinster and in Europe is Sarries and Racing, so only the top 3 teams in Europe have stopped them making finals. Did ok against Exeter last time they met.

McLeod was pretty good again, just read that he picked up a hamstring injury though. Very unfortunate, he could probably slot into the Wales team pretty easily. Not a great look for Scarlets so far, two games in with two losses and struggling to score tries. I'm not sure what isn't quite clicking for them, good players and good coaches but it isn't working yet. Munster and Glasgow both got the better of them up front which from a Wales perspective is rather concerning. Pivac needs to put faith in some of the new guys, and drop Dillon Lewis for Willgriff John.

Scarlets have probably had the hardest two games followed by Munster. With the international window coming things might not get better.

International call up by team from Ireland (thanks pot)

Leinster 17
Munster 8
Connacht 6
Ulster 4

Seems like Ulster will be bad team to get in the widow.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Brendan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:So am I missing something? Please correct me if I’m wrong. O’Mahony did a deliberate and reckless action. How is a deliberate elbow drop considered less severe? Should this not carry a ban even if it was only given a yellow (should have been an easy red) - or is there something in the rules that states a yellow card was deemed worthy enough punishment for a dangerous red card offence?

This isn’t an attack on anyone Irish, I also don’t buy into the conspiracies and enjoy mostly enjoy our rugby. I am genuinely puzzled by the lack of consistency and I’m surprised there isn’t more noise about it.

As I said previously the ref made a call and the review officer was unwilling to overturn it.  It's as simple as that.  Not sure why the assistants didnt say they felt it was deliberate and they should consider a red.  4 people on the day deemed it a yellow (taking the easy road).  There didn't seem to be any new evidence so what could be used as justification increase the severity.

If he had received a similar ban to North/Turnbull I don't think people would disagree.  It's the implication that he is Irish and that had more baring then the event, that is frustrating.

So it was a bad call on the field then. It’s also bad that they had the chance to rectify it off the field but didn’t, literally the same weekend as another ban is dished out for a lesser offence. That’s just shocking. My usual complaint with the league is that it’s probably the worst standard of refereeing - this weekend just reinforces that.

I think if O’Mahony did get banned a bunch of people would have said it should be longer. You can’t please everyone.

Didn't see the Turnbull incident or POM incident. Was that straight red card on the field for shoulder to head area a "lesser offence" by Turnbull than the two yellow cards for entering a breakdown by the shoulder by POM? Was Turnbull at a breakdown, maul, open field? Was POM to the head? Just looking to clarify. Game doesn't need cheapshots, I'm more than happy if the refs/league go to town on it for 2-3 months to eliminate it from the game.

Brendan wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:I know it's early doors but I do think this goes to show what a few of us were saying about how to 'band' the teams in the league. Edinburgh aren't all that to be honest, I think they've reached their peak, Blues and Ospreys have been underperforming for years.

Blues seem to be doing better but at the same time let's see how away from hone not against Zebre goes.

Ospreys not so sure.  They won big against Edinbrugh in terrible conditions then beat themselves and looked completely second best against Ulster at home.  If the weather hadn't been so bad in Scotland would Edinburgh have done so poorly.

Still early doors and probably will need to wait a few more rounds.

The weather's the same for both teams.

Of course, wait for a few more rounds, but I think the fact the 'reset' has allowed injuries to clear up etc and get most squads back to full health shows the quality of the sides. The Ospreys have some of the best Welsh players in their squad yet they hardly perform due to injury from Welsh duty. I expect when the Ospreys are able to put out a full side this season they'll cause some upsets. That, and they've stopped the rot from another substandard Irish coach at the head of a region. All they need to do is find a Dean Ryan type figure - or someone like Cockers - and I'd expect them to be challenging for the play off again.

But we'll have to wait and see as you say but I do think Edinburgh were being treated very generously in that previous banding discussion. Glasgow, Ulster, and the Scarlets look better when at their best.

Only problem with teams getting over injuries is that a long international window is coming up where the injuries are going to rack up. It won't be long before teams are back to a full injury room

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Didn't see the Turnbull incident or POM incident. Was that straight red card on the field for shoulder to head area a "lesser offence" by Turnbull than the two yellow cards for entering a breakdown by the shoulder by POM?  Was Turnbull at a breakdown, maul, open field? Was POM to the head?  Just looking to clarify. Game doesn't need cheapshots, I'm more than happy if the refs/league go to town on it for 2-3 months to eliminate it from the game.

Turnbull made a high tackle. Not deliberate, more a case of the attacker getting lower just before contact and Turnbull using the wrong shoulder. Red was a fair call, as was the ban - the laws are quite clear.

POM's second yellow was for an elbow drop to Jake Ball's face - it started out as a shoulder charge. It wasn't enough to hurt him but I thought the laws were pretty clear on that too, and an elbow was up there with gouging. I've also seen a shoulder charge to the face given a red card (Hogg on Biggar) - because like I said the letter of the law is pretty clear. The ref got it wrong as it should have been a straight red, and then the judicial panel got it wrong by stating a "sending off was sufficient punishment". It's bonkers.

https://twitter.com/ultimaterugby/status/1312421552202362880?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1312421552202362880%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.walesonline.co.uk%2Fsport%2Frugby%2Frugby-news%2Futter-disgrace-welsh-rugby-fans-19076985

Brendan wrote:Scarlets have probably had the hardest two games followed by Munster.  With the international window coming things might not get better.

No easy games in the league now it seems, but Scarlets weren't great in either match. It's still early days so I expect they will click at some point. They're set to lose 15 players or more now though.

But we'll have to wait and see as you say but I do think Edinburgh were being treated very generously in that previous banding discussion. Glasgow, Ulster, and the Scarlets look better when at their best.

Errmmm - did you see the finishing positions in the league even pre covid?

TJ wrote:

But we'll have to wait and see as you say but I do think Edinburgh were being treated very generously in that previous banding discussion. Glasgow, Ulster, and the Scarlets look better when at their best.

Errmmm - did you see the finishing positions in the league even pre covid?

AWJ, Tipuric, North etc. had the small matter of actually competing in the Rugby World Cup knockout stages. Did Edinburgh's Scots? No.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

TJ wrote:

But we'll have to wait and see as you say but I do think Edinburgh were being treated very generously in that previous banding discussion. Glasgow, Ulster, and the Scarlets look better when at their best.

Errmmm - did you see the finishing positions in the league even pre covid?

AWJ, Tipuric, North etc. had the small matter of actually competing in the Rugby World Cup knockout stages. Did Edinburgh's Scots? No.

You talking about Ospreys? I have not checked but surely Edinburgh lose more players to internationals than Ospreys do.

Edinburgh clearly the second best team in the pro 14 last year!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Pro14#Table

13 players in the scotland squad

rugby racing and beer wrote:I know it's early doors but I do think this goes to show what a few of us were saying about how to 'band' the teams in the league. Edinburgh aren't all that to be honest, I think they've reached their peak, Blues and Ospreys have been underperforming for years.

Of course, over a period of 'years', "Blues" (thank God that name is soon to go) and the Ospreys have performed perfectly in line with their salary spend, so I'd love to see a justification of the claim of "under performance"

They have the same amount to spend as Glasgow and Edinburgh. Scarlets have more

TJ wrote:They have the same amount to spend as Glasgow and Edinburgh.  Scarlets have more

That's difficult to believe, with reference to the Scots, when you see what the SRU spends on professional rugby.

PhilBB wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:I know it's early doors but I do think this goes to show what a few of us were saying about how to 'band' the teams in the league. Edinburgh aren't all that to be honest, I think they've reached their peak, Blues and Ospreys have been underperforming for years.

Of course, over a period of 'years', "Blues" (thank God that name is soon to go) and the Ospreys have performed perfectly in line with their salary spend, so I'd love to see a justification of the claim of "under performance"

As has been shown on this thread and others the 3 privately owned teams along with Ulster and Connacht are on between 6-7m per year.  For agreements sake we will say the Scots are too.

In the last 5 years only Connacht and Scarlets have won the Championship. Glasgow was 6 years ago.

The playoffs (Top3) since going to the Pro14 have been
17/18 Scarlets (f) Glasgow (s) Edinburgh (q)
18/19 Glasgow (f) Ulster (s) Connacht (q)
19/20 Ulster (f) Edinburgh (s) Glasgow, Scarlets (3rd in Conference)
3/3 Glasgow
2/3 Ulster, Scarlets, Edinburgh
1/3 Connacht, Cheetahs, Benetton
Ulster and Glasgow have always finished with a Champions Cup spot.

Cheetahs and Benetton also made the playoffs both which much smaller budgets than Blues and Ospreys and Benetton much more effected by the international window.

Last time in top 6
Ospreys 16/17 4th
Blues 6th 10/11 the first year the Italians entered and Scotland rested half their playera towards the end of the season in preparation for the WC.  Dragons finished 7th that year.

So I would love to know how Blues and Ospreys haven't under performed

Wales on line did a really good analysis of the spend in the pro 14. Comparing the Scots to the welsh ( Playing budgets) (IIRC) scarlets were top by a bit, Glasgow, Edinburgh, ospreys, blues all much the same. Dragons the poor relations

Dragons £4.8m, Cardiff Blues £5.9m, Ospreys £6.4m, Scarlets £7.7m

In Scotland, the word is Glasgow operate on around £6.5m and Edinburgh £6m, but as with Ireland, you will hear different figures depending who you talk to.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-much-money-each-welsh-17453851

I've not seen last year's numbers but the season before that Edinburgh's playing budget was £4.8m and Glasgow was £5.1m

So where folk are getting this notion that the SRU pour endless sums of money into those two teams is beyond me.

Budgets are rarely increased substantially so this year you'd be lucky if Edinburgh or Glasgow are on more than £5.5m each. Any increase as a percentage for either club will be around in line with the same increase in other clubs!

From other numbers I have seen Tattie thats a bit low IMO - but its hard to be sure. I think the WOL numbers look about right to me

Either way they have both out performed Ospreys and Blues in the Champions Cup and Pro14

Reviewing last weekend

Big Winners
Blues - second week in a row.  TBP against a rival.  I had it as close but it wasn't.

Winners
Glasgow - Bounced back from the first round to dispatch a good team
Ulster - got the job done against what some thought was an improved Ospreys
Leinster - getting the TBP right at the end

As expected
Munster and Edinburgh went as expected
Dragons got the TBP and didn't give a LBP but I think at home would have been hoping for a better performance.
Zebre as expect though no LBP

Losers
Ospreys - it was the manner of the defeat which was a whimper rather than what was expected at home
Benetton - might be hard on them as they probably had the hardest games (played the two finalists). Scoring 3 tries v Leinster is no mean feat but that is two weeks in a row that they have been 1 try short of 2 Bps. Could have been on 4pts in 3rd but now bottom.

Biggest Losers
Connacht collapsed in the last 15 mins and gave a rival 5pts and a head start in race for 3rd/4th.
Scarlets are the running team that can't score tries. 2 defeats already leaves them in a fight to even get top spot and an injury to halfpenny could have them lose their only weapon.

Brendan wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:I know it's early doors but I do think this goes to show what a few of us were saying about how to 'band' the teams in the league. Edinburgh aren't all that to be honest, I think they've reached their peak, Blues and Ospreys have been underperforming for years.

Of course, over a period of 'years', "Blues" (thank God that name is soon to go) and the Ospreys have performed perfectly in line with their salary spend, so I'd love to see a justification of the claim of "under performance"

As has been shown on this thread and others the 3 privately owned teams along with Ulster and Connacht are on between 6-7m per year.  For agreements sake we will say the Scots are too.

In the last 5 years only Connacht and Scarlets have won the Championship. Glasgow was 6 years ago.

The playoffs (Top3) since going to the Pro14 have been
17/18 Scarlets (f) Glasgow (s) Edinburgh (q)
18/19 Glasgow (f) Ulster (s) Connacht (q)
19/20 Ulster (f) Edinburgh (s) Glasgow, Scarlets (3rd in Conference)
3/3 Glasgow
2/3 Ulster, Scarlets, Edinburgh
1/3 Connacht, Cheetahs, Benetton
Ulster and Glasgow have always finished with a Champions Cup spot.

Cheetahs and Benetton also made the playoffs both which much smaller budgets than Blues and Ospreys and Benetton much more effected by the international window.

Last time in top 6
Ospreys 16/17 4th
Blues 6th 10/11 the first year the Italians entered and Scotland rested half their playera towards the end of the season in preparation for the WC.  Dragons finished 7th that year.

So I would love to know how Blues and Ospreys haven't under performed

Yeah, if you set that false equivalence from the budget then you're right, they have underperformed

How about we use the proper figures, however?

Cardiff's squad salary is below £6m. The SRU spend north of £30m on the professional game, so you can clearly put Glasgow and Edinburgh north of £7m both - comfortably.

Cardiff have won the Challenge(d) Cup in that time, whilst Ulster have won Frak all. Connacht got a league by taking so many points during the international windows and for Leinster being drunk for the final - the definition of an outlier.

However, I'm sure we can all shake hands on the Ospreys being crap.

TJ wrote:Wales on line did a really good analysis of the spend in the pro 14.  Comparing the Scots to the welsh ( Playing budgets) (IIRC) scarlets were top by a bit,  Glasgow, Edinburgh,  ospreys, blues all much the same.  Dragons the poor relations

Dragons £4.8m, Cardiff Blues £5.9m, Ospreys £6.4m, Scarlets £7.7m

In Scotland, the word is Glasgow operate on around £6.5m and Edinburgh £6m, but as with Ireland, you will hear different figures depending who you talk to.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-much-money-each-welsh-17453851

There's no way that only £12.5m is player wages when the total spend is over £30m by the SRU

No way at all.

tigertattie wrote:I've not seen last year's numbers but the season before that Edinburgh's playing budget was £4.8m and Glasgow was £5.1m

So where folk are getting this notion that the SRU pour endless sums of money into those two teams is beyond me.

Budgets are rarely increased substantially so this year you'd be lucky if Edinburgh or Glasgow are on more than £5.5m each. Any increase as a percentage for either club will be around in line with the same increase in other clubs!

Those player budgets are clearly untrue.

Where do folk get this notion? from the actual SRU annual report that details the total spend on the professional game.

If you want to try telling me that only a third of the SRU's spend on professional rugby went on player wages then go ahead.....

For 401 employees, the SRU spent £31.5m on wages. 104 of those employees were players (plus 34 "Elite Development Players & Coaches, which I'm taking to mean Academy players)

We're led to believe that 104 of the £31.5m cost £9.9m, leaving £21.6m to pay for coaching staff, S&C, "Domestic & Performance", Medical and Physiotherapy, commercial, admin, grounds staff etc.

So 297 staff getting £21.6m between them = £72,727 on average. For physios, ticket office staff, HR & Comms etc......

Whilst 104 rugby players share £9.9m = £95,000 average.

Hmmm. That £9.9m looks decidedly off.

Reference to the above is Page 71 of the 2018-19 SRU Annual Report.

Meanwhile, on Page 65, the accounts note:

Costs of International and Professional Rugby are £30,797,000 up from £28,894,000 the year previous. (Up from £22,761,000 in 2105, as a benchmark of how much more the SRU are spending on the professional game)

That money pays for:

The expenditure relating to the players, management, medical and strength & conditioning teams involved in International and Professional rugby is within this category. This includes travel, food and accommodation at venues, salaries, kit, laundry costs, travel insurance, training facilities, honours caps and team coach hire for all of the Scotland teams playing at international level. It also includes all Pro-club costs, being players’, coaches’ and support staff salaries together with kit, travel and other coaching costs, and match day outgoings such as advertising, turnstile staff, ticket printing, venue preparation and entertainment.
Expenditure in the provision of medical services, including physiotherapists, match doctors for the players, crowd doctors, and the medical supplies needed to support players involved in international and professional rugby is included in this category. Also included is the investment in the strength and conditioning personnel who work with the National and Professional teams, together with the associated programme costs.

So are we really to believe that just a third of the expenditure is on player wages. Really? Come on.