Pro 12 plus maybe Friends 20/21

First topic message reminder :

As one season finishes it seems the new one seems to start sooner each year.  Here is the breakdown of teams over the last three years. Places (based on league points) and points are order 19/20, 18/19, 17/18

Leinster (Champions and clearly the team to beat)
Place 1, 3, 2, Average 2
Points 69, 76, 70 total 215
Always have finished top of their conference and winners for the last three years
Goal - Win, anything else is failure

Munster
Place 3, 2, 4 Average 3
Points 51, 77, 69 Total 197
Yet another table where Munster fall short yet again.  Each of the last three years have been knocked out by Leinster
Goal - Top Conference (2nd in league) to finally avoid Leinster in the playoffs to make the final

Glasgow
Place 7, 1, 1 Average 3
Points 38, 81, 76 Total 195
Was this year a WC hangover or is it the start of the slide back to the chasing pack.  Losing key players is taking it's toll. No longer the best team in Scotland.
Goal - Win back dominance in Scotland

Ulster
Place 4, 4, 6 Average 4.33
Points 44, 63, 62 Total 169
Improving each year and seem like one of the teams to challange Leinster.
Goal - Get back to the final

Scarlets
Place 4, 9, 3 Average 5.33
Points 47, 52, 70 Total 169
Last year killed them but on their day a match of anyone. Best team usually in Wales.
Goal - make the final

Edinburgh
Place 2, 10, 5 Average 5.66
Total 51, 51, 68 Total 170
Like Scarlets last year killed them.  Have conquered Scotland and have one of the best coaches in the league.  Possibly the 2nd best team for next season if Cockers has cracked rotation.
Goal - make the final

Connacht
Place 6, 5, 10 Average 7
Points 40, 61, 39 Total 140
Excluding the first year under Keane have been playoff contenders each year.  But they need to push on and not just be happy fighting for a playoff sport.
Have to push for Top 4

Benetton
Place 8, 7, 7 Average 7.33
Points 36, 57, 55 Total 148
Consistency has got them middle of the table which is a good place to build from rather than just the place to stay.
Goal - time to push for Top 6

Blues
Place 9, 8, 8 Average  8.33
Points 33, 54, 54 Total 141
Again consistent in their place but have fallen down and past by their peers.  Have to be looking over their shoulders at Dragons and Zebre.
Goal - time to get above 8th.

Ospreys
Place 12, 6, 9 Average 9
Points 17, 58, 54 Total 119
Which year was the anomaly, when they finished 6th or 12th.  An old team who live on past glories. Last year 6th may have been down to the drop in form of Scarlets and Edinburgh.
Goal - stop the rot

Dragons
Place 10, 11, 12 Average 11
Points 24, 26, 20 Total 70
Slowly improving.  No longer unable to win away from home and building nicely.
Goal - has to be 9th

Zebre
Place 11, 12, 11 Average 11.33
Points 21, 19, 36 Total 76
Have alot of young players coming through.  Last year wasn't great but the other two were improvements on previous years.
Goal - Finished 10th and pick up some big wins.

Zebre currently up 17-3 against Ospreys. I presume that can't last.

Ospreys got battered in the opening quarter.

Ospreys are becoming Zebre’s favourite team at home.

Good ole Benty. 35 and still scoring.

Glasgow not giving up a bit. Great attacking period from them and a penalty for the corner at the end, Another try coming up?

That was a tough call on Glasgow by the Welsh ref. Harley takes out a Leinster player behind the ruck as a clean out leaving a hole for scrumming to hare though. Happens all the time and not penalised.

LondonTiger wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Roberts has to be within a Wales shout too? They need a solid carrier. Everything Dragons do well comes off of him. Defences are struggling to contain him.

Jamie? If so he is a quality player who while well past his best is perhaps too good for many club defences, but no longer good enough for International ones?

Well past it. The time to bring him back out was this time last year. In hindsight, having been fairly critical of him in latter years, Gatland should have called on him. Parkes and JD2 were both crocked, he wouldn't have been any worse.

But that's the issue with test rugby: durability. He put his body on the line time after time. He's not someone who can come in and play 10 more tests adding a bit of class and silky touches, or coming on and closing a game out with game management. He's a big, bruising, honest rugby player who smashes hard and true. Asking him to play test rugby again would be hard going - much like Parkes suddenly dropped off massively in his performances once called up for Wales, the same would happen with someone like Roberts. He clearly still wants caps and who can blame him tbh, Gatland was ruthless to a number of players in the way their careers just ended with a whimper, but the last thing Wales needs to do is go back to Roberts. There are a few players out of the picture who could do a job short term for a year or two even if they don't make 2023 - Shingler if he can get fit, even Scott Williams the same - but Roberts has more than earned his keep in Wales and bringing him out just to (potentially) humiliate him like a boxer who has one too many fights would be foolish.

Wales look awful at the moment (worth reiterating: just at the moment, these last 2 games) but Roberts isn't the answer. No single player is the answer, it's a structural thing. Also, Wales needs hands in the centre, and he most definitely does not have a good pair.

Absolutely tearing down now on the pitch. Glasgow doing well with 14 men.

Zebre win moving them closer to Dragons and Glasgow.

Ospreys either have no depth or they can only play well against Scottish teams. Might be a long international window for them

Scottish, Italian and Irish teams doing well this weekend.

Must say the Monday Night games are a great idea - hope they keep those up post-Covid.

Pot Hale wrote:Scottish, Italian and Irish teams doing well this weekend.  

Must say the Monday Night games are a great idea - hope they keep those up post-Covid.  

Agreed spread them out, especially on international weekends, no need for club games to clash with internationals and it might make it easier for international fringe players to maintain game time

Are the Blues now the best side in Wales. In the two games they lost they were compeditive.

Scarlets while they haven't had many easy games the lack of tries must be a big issue. If they don't get them then wins and BP will be much harder. Conference B isn't a forgiving place to have a bad start.

They look alright. Still seem to be a few personnel away from being a good team though. There's been consistency in the front 5 selection as of late, which has helped. JM seems like he would be a good backs coach, not sure about head coach. It would be easy for a backline to look good with Evans, Halaholo and Lee-Lo though, not to mention the back 3 players. I think they could do with a new recruit at 15.

While it's not good to make light of the covid situation Benetton are going to be able to play their missed games with better players when the internationals come back.

Connacht must be so annoyed that they had chance to build a bit of a cushion in second are now going to be back in the pack.

I don't think the Dragon's game will change the result but they must be annoyed their games two weeks in a row are off

Well Scarlets fell over the line against Zebre and pick up 4 points that they hardly deserved.

They are shockingly short of confidence at the moment, you could see it drain away from them as soon as Zebre came back into the game in the second half.

Considering how many internationals Zebre had away, they put on a decent showing and were probably worth more than a point. they did not have the composure to close out the game though.

Ospreys look too big and slow, in the forwards and backs. Very average back 3 players too, although Protheroe is a very lively chap, just a bit on the thin side. If you’re too slow you’re onto a hiding against Leinster (and Zebre). Not sure what’s up with Scarlets. Mooar seemed to be continuing progress with them. It just adds to the woes and misery that is Welsh rugby.

Ospreys were really missing their top players. Leinster have a really deep squad which adds the extra bonus of everyone getting plenty of rest and when they are played they're fighting tooth and nail for their places. That's the best motivation.

One of the overlooked things with Italian rugby is their improvement at underage and the improvements it has made to Zebre and Benettons squads.

It was only a few years ago that both Benetton and Zebre won on the same weekend in the international window. Zebre's first team has improved but so has everyone else. But when it comes to the international windows they aren't the pushover they once were. As these younger players continue to come through the first team should improve.

Their team v Scarletts age
1 bounfiglio 25
2 manfriedi 23
3 Bello 24*
4 Krumov 24
5 nagle 32*
6 casolari 23
7 koffi 21
8 masselli 23
9 Renton 26*
10 Rizzi 22
11 Onofrio 22
12 Lucchin 25
13 bisegni 28
14 Bruno 24
15 Laloifi 26*

4 of the team not Italians and only 4 players over 25

Subs were Fab 30, lov 31, Noc 21, Ven 30, Cel 23, Cas 9, Pes 25, Bol 22.


U20 Championships
2015 11th
2016 11th
2017 8th
2018 8th
2019 9th

In the last 3 years they have finished ahead of Irelnd and Scotland twice but never Wales who have never finished below 7th.

Conference A after this weekend is looking like a 2 horse race.  Leinster and Ulster already after 5 games seem to have a gap to big to close.  Glasgow need to win at least 4 more games than Ulster to pass them which seems a stretch.  Ospreys 3rd seems more like a early season anomaly then where they belong.  Dragons and Zebre scrapping for 5th with little in it.

Conference B is a bit more interesting.  Munster 7pts clear with a game in hand.  Blues, Scarlets and Edinburgh all on 10pts.  Edinburgh seem the best placed of the three teams having won their last two.  Blues falling to three losses after a bright start.  Scarlets have two wins both against the Italians.  While Connacht are on 9pts you would expect them to get 4pts v Dragons.  Benetton stuck on 1pt but also two games in hand both against Irish teams.  Win and they are right back in it.  Lose both and the Irish teams could open a bit of a gap.

I think in conference A its a race for 3rd spot, Leinster and Ulster have prob the top 2 spots sewn up. In Conference B Munster look like they will top it , Connacht just 1 point behind the pack but with two games in hand should have been able to get into 2nd spot.

But i wouldnt look at it as the 4 irish provinces dominating. Munster have never topped thier conference before, and this year the international break has had a bigger impact on results. The Scottish, Italians and Scarlets have the about the same number of international call ups as Leinster and Munster, but do not have the same depth.

The Italians will most likely look worse than they are as they lose a lot of players to international duty and do not have the depth of other teams to cover, while they are improving its still a big ask and this year you would expect them to be at or near the bottom of each conference.
Scottish teams again have large numbers of call ups but do have better depth than the italians and are similar to Scarlets who lose 12 players.
Dragons lose 6 and Connacht lose 6 and Ulster 5 players which normally give these teams an advantage against teams with more call ups.
The other Welsh sides Ospreys lose 8 and cardiff blues lose 7 which is maybe to many to give them an advantage over other teams.

So Confernece A is as expected Leinster being one of the best teams in Europe with a production line of talent top it, Ulster last years finalist and least effected of all the teams in the league by call ups, are looking strong atm which would be expected. Ospreys, Glasgow and Dragons are about and even mix and Zebre not looking so good.

Conference B, Munster topping it by so much is a bit of a surprise, first two games they won at the very end and if lost either of these the conference would look very different. Scarlets and Edinburgh have similar number of call ups and depth so you expect them to be about equal, Connacht normally get a good run not being as effected by call ups and if the 2 games in hand were played could realistically be 2nd. Cardiff Blues may fall into that as well. So aside from Munster maybe winning a game more than expectedthe rest is about in line with what you would have thought.

Ulster are pretty good right now.

Pretty good weekend of rugby. Scarlets are a bit unlucky not to win, if Jones and AOB weren’t so crap then they might have won. Costelow looked good when he came on. Hopefully Scarlets continue this upward trajectory.

Disgraceful decision in the Ulster v Scarlets game tonight, in not red carding Treadwell (who has also scored a try since). It’s not a good look for the league, when an Irish TMO is able to talk down a referee from giving a deserved red card. I’m sure people won’t agree, but the league shouldn’t be putting itself in this position where neutrality could be questioned.

It also has turned out to be the winning try too.

And forgot to add that Jac Morgan was very good and should have a bright future. A shame that he’s another open-side.

RiscaGame wrote:Disgraceful decision in the Ulster v Scarlets game tonight, in not red carding Treadwell (who has also scored a try since). It’s not a good look for the league, when an Irish TMO is able to talk down a referee from giving a deserved red card. I’m sure people won’t agree, but the league shouldn’t be putting itself in this position where neutrality could be questioned.

It also has turned out to be the winning try too.

I know there's a perception amongst our Welsh friends on here of Irish bias, it doesn't exist. The fact that there's a perception however needs looked at but the Pro12/14/16 needs more officials and officials of a better quality too.
By current standards Treadwell should have been red-carded, I had resigned myself to a 14 man Ulster as soon as I saw the replays. The thing is (yes there's a thing), the same people who have been claiming that it was 100% a red card have been arguing that similar incidents should only have been a yellow at most for a few weeks and I agree with them. However, it's the laws of the game and it's inconsistent to have allowed Treadwell to remain on the pitch. The Scarlets would have undoubtedly won the game last night as Ulster were in some disarray with 15 on the pitch.

Pete330v2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Disgraceful decision in the Ulster v Scarlets game tonight, in not red carding Treadwell (who has also scored a try since). It’s not a good look for the league, when an Irish TMO is able to talk down a referee from giving a deserved red card. I’m sure people won’t agree, but the league shouldn’t be putting itself in this position where neutrality could be questioned.

It also has turned out to be the winning try too.

I know there's a perception amongst our Welsh friends on here of Irish bias, it doesn't exist. The fact that there's a perception however needs looked at but the Pro12/14/16 needs more officials and officials of a better quality too.
By current standards Treadwell should have been red-carded, I had resigned myself to a 14 man Ulster as soon as I saw the replays. The thing is (yes there's a thing), the same people who have been claiming that it was 100% a red card have been arguing that similar incidents should only have been a yellow at most for a few weeks and I agree with them. However, it's the laws of the game and it's inconsistent to have allowed Treadwell to remain on the pitch. The Scarlets would have undoubtedly won the game last night as Ulster were in some disarray with 15 on the pitch.

In all fairness, he's absolutely spot on. Do you need reminding that the Scarlets have had 3 red cards in recent weeks? We know for a fact that one of them should not have been a red card (Morgan Jones), as that's what they pretty much said. With that in mind I'm really not sure how you can say "aww buh buh the welsh said they shouldn't ave ad a red caaard." - especially as there's been red card incidents against us that escaped not only a red but also a citing - both at club and international, what a joke. It seems in this one the Ref was ready to give a red, but the Irish TMO talked him out of sending off the Irish player on Irish soil - what do you think of that exactly?

No consistency there whatsoever. It's another reason why a number of fans can't resonate with this league and want out. I can't see that alleviating, not with this.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Disgraceful decision in the Ulster v Scarlets game tonight, in not red carding Treadwell (who has also scored a try since). It’s not a good look for the league, when an Irish TMO is able to talk down a referee from giving a deserved red card. I’m sure people won’t agree, but the league shouldn’t be putting itself in this position where neutrality could be questioned.

It also has turned out to be the winning try too.

I know there's a perception amongst our Welsh friends on here of Irish bias, it doesn't exist. The fact that there's a perception however needs looked at but the Pro12/14/16 needs more officials and officials of a better quality too.
By current standards Treadwell should have been red-carded, I had resigned myself to a 14 man Ulster as soon as I saw the replays. The thing is (yes there's a thing), the same people who have been claiming that it was 100% a red card have been arguing that similar incidents should only have been a yellow at most for a few weeks and I agree with them. However, it's the laws of the game and it's inconsistent to have allowed Treadwell to remain on the pitch. The Scarlets would have undoubtedly won the game last night as Ulster were in some disarray with 15 on the pitch.

In all fairness, he's absolutely spot on. Do you need reminding that the Scarlets have had 3 red cards in recent weeks? We know for a fact that one of them should not have been a red card (Morgan Jones), as that's what they pretty much said. With that in mind I'm really not sure how you can say "aww buh buh the welsh said they shouldn't ave ad a red caaard." - especially as there's been red card incidents against us that escaped not only a red but also a citing - both at club and international, what a joke. It seems in this one the Ref was ready to give a red, but the Irish TMO talked him out of sending off the Irish player on Irish soil - what do you think of that exactly?

No consistency there whatsoever. It's another reason why a number of fans can't resonate with this league and want out. I can't see that alleviating, not with this.

Bad decisions only happen against the welsh teams of course.

Another one where the point went flying over their head. This is typically like the other stupid answers I've been seeing from the Irish since it happened. Poor guys still can't answer the question.

"It seems in this one the Ref was ready to give a red, but the Irish TMO talked him out of sending off the Irish player on Irish soil - what do you think of that exactly?"

I think I've already answered that.

Absolutely the league needs better officials. But why not take away the possibility of neutrality being questioned. As an example, there were Italian touch judges and a TMO overseeing a Zebre home game this weekend. Scottish officials (ref aside) are overseeing a Glasgow game tonight. There were ways around it.

I’ve frequently said I don’t support a lot of the Irish run league talk, but things like this could/should be avoided. I wouldn’t even mind a touch judge team being the same nationality tbh, as most touch judges are pretty passive and can’t really affect the game. A TMO is generally the most important official, as a lot of referees are afraid to make a decision on their own.

Pete330v2 wrote:"It seems in this one the Ref was ready to give a red, but the Irish TMO talked him out of sending off the Irish player on Irish soil - what do you think of that exactly?"

I think I've already answered that.

Thanks. If you agree with us then it's best not to respond with juvenile jibes, that seems to be the standard answer when we bring it up.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"It seems in this one the Ref was ready to give a red, but the Irish TMO talked him out of sending off the Irish player on Irish soil - what do you think of that exactly?"

I think I've already answered that.

Thanks. If you agree with us then it's best not to respond with juvenile jibes, that seems to be the standard answer when we bring it up.

When was I making juvenile jibes?
According to the Scarlets forum all the red cards awarded were unfair and harsh yet all of a sudden when it's in their favour, a yellow isn't enough. It wasn't a jibe, juvenile or not, it was simply fact about the comments made by Scarlets fans on the subject.
Drag yourself from the puerile mire for once Mikey boy.

I think Covid has hit alot of the neutral officials because of travel restrictions.

In this instance it is a classical weak ref.  To many of them let the TMO tell them what to do rather than making the call themselves.  The fact that the ref reversed his original opinion says he wasn't sure himself or he saw something in the review he missed first time.

Just because refs make mistakes does mean they are always for the Irish or done on purpose.

Pete330v2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:"It seems in this one the Ref was ready to give a red, but the Irish TMO talked him out of sending off the Irish player on Irish soil - what do you think of that exactly?"

I think I've already answered that.

Thanks. If you agree with us then it's best not to respond with juvenile jibes, that seems to be the standard answer when we bring it up.

When was I making juvenile jibes?
According to the Scarlets forum all the red cards awarded were unfair and harsh yet all of a sudden when it's in their favour, a yellow isn't enough. It wasn't a jibe, juvenile or not, it was simply fact about the comments made by Scarlets fans on the subject.
Drag yourself from the puerile mire for once Mikey boy.

I pointed it out didn’t I? Saying stupid things like “buh the Welsh said they shouldn’t ave ad a red card a few weeks ago...”. It’s pointless and it isn’t really related to this isolated incident where the ref was talked out of sending off an Irish player by an Irish TMO.

Well that’s the Scarlets forum for you. Our resident bore is a die hard Scarlet so that should tell you a lot. It was just Morgan Jones that was incorrectly sent off. The others were fair. There hasn’t been a Welsh player to escape a red card offence this season, but a few of our opposition have. Some were Irish.

Brendan wrote:Just because refs make mistakes does mean they are always for the Irish or done on purpose.

I don’t pay much attention to conspiracy theories about the league, but there have been a number of occasions where they were for the Irish this season. I’m not sure why you all keep trying to brush it off. The league needs to improve its officiating and remove homer ref’s so there won’t be any reason to make accusations of bias.

Anyway, good win by Munster tonight. They're playing a lot like South Africa, I think it's good to watch.

Leinster game against Scarlets postponed due to some positive COVID results on the Scarlets side? Hope affected get well soon.

I'm not really a fan of those two playing each other on an international weekend.

I’d agree with you mikey. Keep test weekends for international fixtures. Get the women’s games, the lower age match and make more of a weekend out of it all.

In another round-up of BS for the league, Gareth Evans gets handed a 3 week ban. Treadwell escaped a red card and gets off scott free. I wouldn't be surprised if other teams are considering their withdrawal from this league as it's beyond a joke now.

I think they should get rid of the rule (maybe unwritten) that if the ref takes action that is it, no review needed. Also don't think all red cards should automatically have bans.

I doubt though that teams are looking to leave. As far as I know there is nowhere to go other than maybe the English Championship.

mikey_dragon wrote:In another round-up of BS for the league, Gareth Evans gets handed a 3 week ban. Treadwell escaped a red card and gets off scott free. I wouldn't be surprised if other teams are considering their withdrawal from this league as it's beyond a joke now.

Connacht's Abraham Papalii got a 5 week ban by the way.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:In another round-up of BS for the league, Gareth Evans gets handed a 3 week ban. Treadwell escaped a red card and gets off scott free. I wouldn't be surprised if other teams are considering their withdrawal from this league as it's beyond a joke now.

Connacht's Abraham Papalii got a 5 week ban by the way.

Very Irish kind of guy .

Brendan wrote:I think they should get rid of the rule (maybe unwritten) that if the ref takes action that is it, no review needed.  Also don't think all red cards should automatically have bans.

I doubt though that teams are looking to leave.  As far as I know there is nowhere to go other than maybe the English Championship.

Morgan Jones' Red Card didn't get a citing, as it was decided that the sending off was the wrong decision. I also thought Josh Helps' red card and citing was extremely harsh, but I accepted it as it is within the laws of protecting the head. Of course if you're an Irish player than you may target opposition heads at will and get off free. There's been 4 incidents of this now, I wonder why it isn't being escalated further.

The fact that the Pro 14 named him in their team of the week was a bit naughty. Plus the TMO gets to keep his Wales v England gig tomorrow. I long for the days when Bernard Jackman would have a pop at Greg Garner, as the guy seems to have no scrutiny on what he does now.

As well as Leinster having to forgo their game against Scarlets, I see Connacht have had another game postponed because of another Welsh club outbreak at Ospreys.   That will leave them 3 games adrift of others in the league.   I'm beginning to wonder how seriously the Welsh clubs are taking the necessary Covid precautions and restrictions.

With the best will in the world, Connacht will find it much harder to squeeze in games in an already tight schedule to try and catch up on their conference rivals.

Treadwell banned for 3 weeks. That’s an improvement on previous disciplinary outcomes. A shame O’Mahony didn’t get banned earlier in the season, Munster and Ireland would have found themselves with a better back-row forward!

mikey_dragon wrote:Treadwell banned for 3 weeks. That’s an improvement on previous disciplinary outcomes. A shame O’Mahony didn’t get banned earlier in the season, Munster and Ireland would have found themselves with a better back-row forward!

Ah dang and you had us all convinced there that our irish lads were untouchable.

Plot twist.... Treadwell is English .

The conspiracy didn't stop Henderson getting banned