The Glasgow and Edinburgh General Chat. Discussions are limited to 6 people before 10pm to prevent the spread of Jimboish.

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Another chat thread dedicated to speculation, rumination, and general perambulation through the trials and tribulations of the club from the west with no forwards and the club from the east without a backs coach.

One day we'll have more rugby to talk about!

Disappointing for Edinburgh, but probably worth saying that La Rochelle are not top of the French League for nothing

Still a lot of problems in the Edinburgh back line and they won't progress until that is sorted.

That was pish.

Fully deserve to lose that. I respect Cockerill, but he needs to sack Hodge tomorrow morning and find a new backs coach. Forwards are fine, and there's spirit in this team and talent in the backs, but the coaching is obviously poor.

Just on a couple of individuals:

- I thought it was as poor a game from Ritchie as I've seen. I called him out as a Lion not so long ago. Frankly, on recent form, he's miles away. He needs to rediscover form fast. Poor at the breakdown and looked sluggish.

- D'Arcy Graham also looks lost. Pity Hodge hasn't the imagination to use him better. His job is basically to chase box kicks and make tackles. Such a waste of one of our best broken field runners for some time.

- Pyrgos was awful. Just awful. Slow, poor judgement, poor kicking, poor passing. It's time for Groom and Shiel to take over.

I should say on the plus side Willem Nel looks good at the moment, Kinghorn had a decent game and the scrum is still a weapon.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I should say on the plus side Willem Nel looks good at the moment, Kinghorn had a decent game and the scrum is still a weapon.

He still never passes though!

True, oddly for a former fly half, but if I was part of a Hodge backline I probably wouldn't pass it either!

I'm a huge fan of what Cockers has done for Edinburgh but I'm wondering if he's reached the limit of what he can achieve. We're bereft of ideas.

Barclay made a good observation in the commentary when Johnstone came on and passed forward, that the backs aren't playing what's in front of them - they persisted with the move after 2-3 phases when they were going backwards. Does suggest somethings gone stale.

Thought things picked up when Groom came on.
Graham just looked battered. Not a game for the smaller fellas/

I wouldn't look at it so harshly.
I was expecting a real stuffing and it wasn't. The squad has been totally disrupted with international callups - its the first time there has been a full squad for ages.
This season is a total write off for both scots teams - donald ducked by international call ups in the pro 14, rotten luck in the fixtures for the euro cup

TJ wrote:I wouldn't look at it so harshly.
I was expecting a real stuffing and it wasn't.  The squad has been totally disrupted with international callups - its the first time there has been a full squad for ages.  
This season is a total write off for both scots teams - donald ducked by international call ups in the pro 14, rotten luck in the fixtures for the euro cup

You're right in what you're saying TJ, but these issues have been going on a long time now.

I agree that for.the Scottish teams it's all just about getting through the season and regrouping next year.

This just shows why I don’t think Scotland will get 3 wins in the next 6ns.

Edinburgh and Glasgow were both going well in the league and players took their league form into the international set up. Now the malaise from the international side has been brought back to the clubs.

The SRU need to earn their bucks and get hodge out. If they don’t then it really is still a Jobs for the boys club and we’ll be set back another decade in development

tigertattie wrote:This just shows why I don’t think Scotland will get 3 wins in the next 6ns.

Edinburgh and Glasgow were both going well in the league and players took their league form into the international set up. Now the malaise from the international side has been brought back to the clubs.

The SRU need to earn their bucks and get hodge out. If they don’t then it really is still a Jobs for the boys club and we’ll be set back another decade in development

I don't think any of us disagree, we just don't think two wins should be the bar because that would suggest the current standard with this crop of players is acceptable.

Hodge is about as likely to be kicked out as he is to have interest from anywhere else. He's like the incompetent one at work everyone has to make up for, yet is never fired because it'd be too difficult. Send him to one of the American clubs to coach, they're the only ones who will take him probably.

I to think 3 wins will be tricky however its the minimum acceptable standard IMO

My post above does not absolve everyone of blame but was intended to simply highlight the uncontrollable external influences on the match

A couple of late changes for Glasgow

Gordon and Kennedy out.

McDonald starts with Harley going back to 6

Bain and Dobie come onto the bench

Anyone got a reliable link?

According to BT Harley is playing at 4 and McDonald at 6. Hope that's wrong.

Sadly it's not.

Maybe worth a try

McDonald carries better than Harley

jimbopip wrote:Anyone got a reliable link?

Yes but you don't want it! Pm incoming

this could be slaughter.  Exeter are so good when down near the line

Glasgow discipline is woeful. They've got to tighten things up and get on the right side of Sir. Conceding penalties against Exeter is suicide.

Discipline just killing Glasgow and Exeter just kick it to the corner every time

Starting to take some casualties as well

Horne off snd Turnet joins him

Well we got to HT only 12-0 down

I guess we should take some comfort from that

Gray and Hogg scoring for... oh

What a poor chase from Glasgow after Exeter kicked it too long, gifted them that attack.

Aw what a shame after such a good spell of defence. Just gotta go for it now!

Thomson made a real hash of that loose ball, lucky escape

Jones, Iaone and Dobbie making a difference. Just can't get over the white wash though, or in the Exeter 22 for that matter

Ruddy 'eck. Exeter are good. Hardly a foot wrong and can do everything.

Tough, tough match. That's where Glasgow are at the moment though. Until a combination of youth and outside signings can replace some of the older and underperforming players Glasgow will not get much better in Europe or the Pro14.

TJ wrote:Ruddy 'eck.  Exeter are good.  Hardly a foot wrong and can do everything.  

It's what Exeter do. Week in and week out as well. One of the best coached teams going. Just so hard to break them down and they are so relentless.

The only chance you have is if a team can pressure their scrum and lineout and carry hard into their midfield and still retain possession in contact. The way the Exeter props steam into tackles with minimal arm involvement is such an effective way of stopping ball carriers. The question is can any team do that for the full 80? Racing came close last season and I suspect it will have to be one of the French teams this season to attempt to dethrone them.

I've no idea how Harry Williams doesn't get pinged more for those no arms, door wedge type tackles. He's cleaned up his technique a bit as well but it's still very suspect a lot of the time. Diving at someones knees with your shoulders travelling towards the ground and your leading arm pointing backwards towards your own posts doesn't paint a good picture for a ref.

king_carlos wrote:I've no idea how Harry Williams doesn't get pinged more for those no arms, door wedge type tackles. He's cleaned up his technique a bit as well but it's still very suspect a lot of the time. Diving at someones knees with your shoulders travelling towards the ground and your leading arm pointing backwards towards your own posts doesn't paint a good picture for a ref.

These days that can easily be a yellow card if seen. It's something the TMO should be helping refs with as those type of tackles are dangerous for both attacker and defender.

Ooft that is a bit of a pumping as expected. I don't think there could have been a worse fixture for Glasgow to return to after the internationals.

I have an awful confession to make. I had to do a bit of work today and fully intended to kick back and watch the rugby afterwards to relax with a couple of beers. I decided to check the team that was turning out for Glasgow. I saw it and decided not to tune in at all. It seemed a lacklustre combination of journeymen and nearlymen.
Glasgow, or more accurately the SRU, need to decide if they want the era of Champions Cup Knockouts and League finals to be a blip in record of mediocrity. I understand that the period when a series of quality players emerged through the academy together is a rarity especially at the same time players like Maitland, Strauss, Nakarawa, Matawalu et al are signed.However the side put out today was unacceptable for a country with two professional sides to put out in Europe's premier competition.
In the team today Bryce, Grigg, Jones, Horne, Harley, McDonald and Wilson would struggle to get into any Premiership team. Seymour is barely better. It's best not to talk about the bench. The SRU should do better, it's as simple as that.
It is simply not good enough for Glasgow to put that bunch out. The academy system is not functioning if some of those players are still playing for Glasgow. The scouting system is not working if they are the best imports we can get.
Perhaps it is time that rugby moves toward the football method of transfers. When you consider that Glasgow have lost Russell, Hogg, Gray, Maitland and others to some of the best teams in Europe for nothing in return it does not seem the best way of doing things.

Agree entirely Numbers.
As someone who used to go along to Hughenden and Firhill, and sit down to watch some pretty average and initially cringe stuff, you stuck with it as you could see things slowly improving, momentum building over the years, and feel the graft that was going on behind the scenes.
I don't know, maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, but whatever is happening now, it is not a continuation of that.

Looking at that Glasgow squad, how many players are actually worth building a squad around that is capable of reaching previous heights ? I've highlighted what I reckon in bold, and it's not many, with half of those currently injured!

With everyone fit Glasgow's 1st XV is just about competitive at the top level. Past that it's a steep decline.

1. Oli Kebble (51)
2. George Turner (53)
3. Zander Fagerson (94)
4. Rob Harley (239)
5. Scott Cummings (72)
6. Ryan Wilson (C) (178)
7. Tom Gordon (25)
8. Matt Fagerson (65)

9. Ali Price (90)
10. Pete Horne (178)
11. Lee Jones (84)
12. Sam Johnson (64)
13. Nick Grigg (78)
14. Tommy Seymour
15. Glenn Bryce (32)

Replacements

16. Grant Stewart (39)
17. Aki Seiuli (19)
18. Enrique Pieretto (7)
19. Kiran McDonald (29)
20. TJ Ioane (6)
21. Sean Kennedy (12)
22. Brandon Thomson (29)
23. Huw Jones (42)

Unavailable due to injury: Alex Allan, Fraser Brown, Richie Gray, Adam Hastings, George Horne, Stafford McDowall, Leone Nakarawa, Kyle Steyn.

VDM is.off to Worcester next season according to rumours. I know there's technically nothing him stopping him doing that, but I think he's be the only residency player in Scotland who hasn't signed at least a 1 year extension once he becomes qualified.

With no disrespect to Worcester intended, a player of his calibre should be aiming higher!

Yeah i mean when you compare the Pro12 winning team sheet

Glasgow Warriors: Hogg, Seymour, Vernon, Horne, Van der Merwe, Russell, Pyrgos, Reid, Hall, De Klerk, Nakarawa (I could strike him out too tbh), Gray, Harley, Wilson, Strauss.

Replacements: S Lamont for Hogg (62), Matawalu for van der Merwe (70), Weir for Russell (66), Yanuyanutawa for Reid (77), Brown for Hall (62), Welsh for de Klerk (52), Kellock for Nakarawa (66), Fusaro for Harley (60).

On VDM, that was quick! A team like Bath or Wasps could really use a player like him, they've both been struggling to win the EP but finishing near the top. Worcester is an odd choice if you ask me apart from the SA connection. Are they Edinburgh's filter team into the EP?

RDW wrote:VDM is.off to Worcester next season according to rumours. I know there's technically nothing him stopping him doing that, but I think he's be the only residency player in Scotland who hasn't signed at least a 1 year extension once he becomes qualified.

With no disrespect to Worcester intended, a player of his calibre should be aiming higher!

It seems there is a premium for going yo Worcester

£300,000 pa

That is good money in the current climate, Edinburgh won't even get close to that

Jonny May was struggling to get a £300k offer if memory serves. If Worcester are offering that sort of money, the SRU should not try to compete. It is not like Edinburgh has an attacking plan that uses the wings a huge amount anyway and Blain looks an able player to plug in with Kinghorn, Graham, Hoyland and Sau.

Watched the first half of Glasgow before giving up. It was like watching an early days Italian side. Outmuscled, outsmarted, outclassed.

I get what Wilson was trying to do with Bryce and Grigg in rewarding form but if H Jones is not going to be starting, ideally we need to be finding him a good contract elsewhere next season as we don't have money to burn. Our back row stocks are woeful thanks to Rennie's reign of terror (Wynne, Smith and Flockhart should all be ready to be the next generation at this point) and we are going to need to lose several larger salaries to make the books balance. If Hastings is gone next season, the shopping list is looking like three quality back rows, a starting FH, young back-up FH and if Smith or McClean are deemed not ready a starting back three player.  

Next steps for Glasgow is whatever happened with the academy players sort it out and get them playing. We need to start figuring out who can cut it. Are Thornton, Nicol, Bain, Dobie, R Thompson MacCallum, Smith and McClean future internationals or good club players we can build around? We already allowed Henderson, Sykes and Davidson to leave over the summer and in retrospect, we should have kept one of them.

We have little in the back-row and not sure if there are academy players who are liked but Edinburgh are flush with back rows who could start for Glasgow like Darge, Boyle, Crosbie, Carmichael, Miller and Haining with Muncaster highly rated in the academy. Two, preferably Haining and one of Darge, Boyle or Muncaster, should be making their way across even if Edinburgh lose Mata and Watson.

Clubs seem to be trying to follow the Bristol/LI model these days by just throwing money at it. The prem is becoming more like the Top14.

Glasgow and Edinburgh can't rely on keeping up with that unless they decide to sell to the highest bidder. Either the SRU improves the academy system and introduces academy player quotas or goes full metal throwing money at the clubs.

Personally I think the former is the way to go. It's worked for teams like Exeter, Sarries, Munster, Ulster and worked for Glasgow in the past. I think we could do reasonably well in the pro14 even with academy prospects. We had a fantastic u18s team which then made up the core of the U20s side. Where are they now?? Languishing in the super6 with no rugby to play or in the academies not being used.

I don't know who would be interested in buying either club, although there is potential. We'd then have to accept a possibly more mercurial side who MAY have success at a high cost. With only two clubs I definitely don't think that'd work. Unless the Aberdeen asset manager still is interested in running a third club.

bsando wrote:Yeah i mean when you compare the Pro12 winning team sheet

Glasgow Warriors: Hogg, Seymour, Vernon, Horne, Van der Merwe, Russell, Pyrgos, Reid, Hall, De Klerk, Nakarawa (I could strike him out too tbh), Gray, Harley, Wilson, Strauss.

Replacements: S Lamont for Hogg (62), Matawalu for van der Merwe (70), Weir for Russell (66), Yanuyanutawa for Reid (77), Brown for Hall (62), Welsh for de Klerk (52), Kellock for Nakarawa (66), Fusaro for Harley (60).

On VDM, that was quick! A team like Bath or Wasps could really use a player like him, they've both been struggling to win the EP but finishing near the top. Worcester is an odd choice if you ask me apart from the SA connection. Are they Edinburgh's filter team into the EP?

Wasps and Bath wouldn't need him. Wasps have a selection of good wingers that all cost less, score tries and don't get called up for international duty. Bath have a selection of quality wingers all of whom have been capped by England. 

Sale, Worcester and maybe Quins if Ashton is off at the end of the season are the ones possibly wanting a winger. I doubt Quins or Sale would have offered that level of cash. £300k in the current market is crazy and is more than Johnny May and Nemani Nadolo are getting at Glaws and Tigers.

Didn't watch the Glasgow game, but afraid the result was all too predictable. We are light years away from Exeter just now.

Won't repeat the points laid out previously, but the decline of Glasgow has been a long time in the making and won't be reversed quickly. My main issue is with the Academy system, for whatever reason we just aren't getting enough talent through the pathway. We definitely got lucky having both Hogg and Russell come through at the same time, developing two world class players concurrently won't be happening again any time soon, but we don't even seem to be replacing the mid level guys like Harley, Wilson etc.

Hastings to Gloucester now building momentum too.

I'm sure there's a phrase about rats and a sinking ship....

To be fair - what incentive does Hastings have to stay at Glasgow given the current state of the squad and no signs of improvement?

Of course it's not new for our star player to leave Edinburgh or Glasgow, but that things that stands out for me with these guys is that they are still young - Hastings is only 24. It does feel like a change in the wind and being looked after for Scotland / home comforts is no longer enough. I fear for Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Jamie Lyall reporting the Hastings move is now a done deal.
Looks like the Prem clubs are skooshing away their CVC money on salaries after all.

I'd be very surprised if Healy elected to come and play with Price and Grigg rather than Murray and De Allende. Difficult to see where Glasgow go now, long term or short term.

The reason the Healy deal seems possible is the IRFU have put all their contracting on hold just now, and his expires in the summer. Surely that's not going to last much longer as a lot of players will need signed up...

If the SRU get in there first he'll have some security.

There's also a lot of competition at Munster whereas he'd be top dog at Glasgow. He'd also be the only dog!

RDW wrote:The reason the Healy deal seems possible is the IRFU have put all their contracting on hold just now, and his expires in the summer. Surely that's not going to last much longer as a lot of players will need signed up...

If the SRU get in there first he'll have some security.

There's also a lot of competition at Munster whereas he'd be top dog at Glasgow. He'd also be the only dog!

It might also depend on where he sees his international aspirations getting their best shot. Assuming he has international intentions!