Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

How have some individuals got to the point where all they do is whinge and moan and complain about other people without any sense of compassion for those less well off than themselves through no fault of their own?

[McLaren]

Ok super lets try something. You tell us a claim from extinction rebellion which you think is bunk and we will check what the literature actually has to say about it. Go slow, one at a time and pick the one you think is most ridiculous first.

[JAS]

I was expecting a massive debate on climate change after the blue touch paper was lit....nothing!!

Ok I'll start then. Throughout history climates have changed, I think there's a natural oscillation that occurs as the planet over 1000s of years tries to keep itself in balance so it goes from hotter to colder & back, it also goes from wetter to drier in back in some areas. Huge forces and trends govern this.

The golden question though...Does human intervention have an impact? Yes i believe there is an effect. Is that effect significant? Depends on what you call significant...in terms of planetary survival? no not really. In terms of human survival? again probably not really. In terms of a significant impact on human society, probably on balance you could now say yes, there may now be a marginal effect. Some may still argue we're still within the bounds of natural factors causing all floods, fires, icecap melts etc Others may say that its all humans fault. In reality the answer is probably somewhere in between

[navyblueshorts]

IMO, it's a pointless argument. It should be axiomatic that humanity minimises its impact on the planet. We don't, because we choose not to, even though we're now advanced enough not to carry on poisoning our environment. Why would we go and contaminate everything around us on the basis that, well, we don't know for certain that it's harmful? Talk about stupid.

[super_realist]

Ok super lets try something. You tell us a claim from extinction rebellion which you think is bunk and we will check what the literature actually has to say about it. Go slow, one at a time and pick the one you think is most ridiculous first.

OK. How about the claim that the current generation could be the last. Clearly that is utter lovesacks as climate change would need to kill around 1,000,000 people every single day for 20 years.

Or, you could have the claim that 300 species are dying because of climate change every day. However when you ask them to name one, the silence is deafening.

Or, how about the claim that London could be underwater in a generation or that we could all become cannibals. 

Furthermore the demands they put forward such as an end to fossil fuel by 2025 are absolutely absurd and unworkable not to mention damaging to the wellbeing of billions of people. 

One of the biggest issues I have with the likes of XR though is the lack of consistency in their arguments. They are only interested in certain aspects of climate change sources and ignore everything that doesn't suit their agenda. I see such groups as being far more harmful to raising the issue of climate change by employing professional deadbeat protestors and failing to act in a civilised way. 
Only last week they turned up at arch climate hypocrite David Attenborough's house and protested against his view that  violent, illegal or disruptive protests should not be allowed.

[McLaren]

Pick one, I am sick of your scattergun approach to debate, which derails getting into any details.


I believe the term you will be familiar with is "gish galloping".

[super_realist]

Go on population then Mac and potential extinction within a generation. That's clearly nonsense and only a month or so ago they had to retract that statement from their websites because it was untrue and deeply misleading.

[super_realist]

Pick one, I am sick of your scattergun approach to debate, which derails getting into any details.


I believe the term you will be familiar with is "gish galloping".

Nope Mac, a gish gallop is talking without answering the question. 
I gave you several examples of where XR are talking excrement. Pick any one you like and demonstrate to me that they are correct in their claims.

[McLaren]

Pick one, I am sick of your scattergun approach to debate, which derails getting into any details.


I believe the term you will be familiar with is "gish galloping".

Nope Mac, a gish gallop is talking without answering the question. 
I gave you several examples of where XR are talking excrement. Pick any one you like and demonstrate to me that they are correct in their claims.

Are you having comprehension issues again? Read my first post to you on this matter.

[super_realist]

I could have given you one Mac, but I gave you a few just because it was so easy. 

If you are too stupid to read them in isolation then that's your problem.

[super_realist]

IMO, it's a pointless argument. It should be axiomatic that humanity minimises its impact on the planet. We don't, because we choose not to, even though we're now advanced enough not to carry on poisoning our environment. Why would we go and contaminate everything around us on the basis that, well, we don't know for certain that it's harmful? Talk about stupid.

We aren't yet advanced enough to stop "poisoning" our environment just yet (unless you drastically want to reduce our standard of living to achieve it) 
The transition has begun, but it is gradual and expensive and will take decades to generations to achieve net zero, at the same time energy demand is increasing and we don't have anything like enough renewable energy to meet our current demands let alone what would be required if fossil fuels were no longer used to generate power.

[pedro]

Discussing climate with mac is like discussing religion with an Irishman.

[super_realist]

Mac reminds me of the poster known as Maverick. 
Where Mav pretended to be this incredible amateur golfer, Mac pretends to be a learned and eminent Scientist.

[navyblueshorts]

Pick one, I am sick of your scattergun approach to debate, which derails getting into any details.


I believe the term you will be familiar with is "gish galloping".

Says the person who avoids direct answers to direct questions when pressed...

[navyblueshorts]

IMO, it's a pointless argument. It should be axiomatic that humanity minimises its impact on the planet. We don't, because we choose not to, even though we're now advanced enough not to carry on poisoning our environment. Why would we go and contaminate everything around us on the basis that, well, we don't know for certain that it's harmful? Talk about stupid.

We aren't yet advanced enough to stop "poisoning" our environment just yet (unless you drastically want to reduce our standard of living to achieve it) 
The transition has begun, but it is gradual and expensive and will take decades to generations to achieve net zero, at the same time energy demand is increasing and we don't have anything like enough renewable energy to meet our current demands let alone what would be required if fossil fuels were no longer used to generate power.

Au contraire. We are, and have been for decades, knowledgeable enough to prevent, for example, waste being dumped in the ground water/waterways or vented into the atmosphere etc. It should be axiomatic that attempts are put in place to minimise/stop that as a matter of course. I'm not talking about CO₂ specifically, although that's a part of it. Its the mentality that has a default position of emitting cr@p as if it's something that is automatically OK.
Yes, there are costs associated w/ this, but so what?

[super_realist]

I agree about certain things Navy, just don't think we are in a position to do it all, which is what these deranged doomsday cults want us to do immediately.

I'm specifically talking about the generation of energy to meet our needs and future demands by the way.

In terms of dealing with and reducing pollution though we are in a far better position than where we were at any point in the past though.

[navyblueshorts]

Discussing climate with mac is like discussing religion with an Irishman.

What makes you think an Irishman can't discuss religion? They may not agree w/ your position, but to simply say they can't discuss it is stereotyping for the sake of it. I'm going to assume you're atheist, which is fine, but if so, you're going to struggle to appreciate their position, assuming they're not also atheist.

[navyblueshorts]

I agree about certain things Navy, just don't think we are in a position to do it all, which is what these deranged doomsday cults want us to do immediately.

Agreed .

[super_realist]

Discussing climate with mac is like discussing religion with an Irishman.

What makes you think an Irishman can't discuss religion? They may not agree w/ your position, but to simply say they can't discuss it is stereotyping for the sake of it. I'm going to assume you're atheist, which is fine, but if so, you're going to struggle to appreciate their position, assuming they're not also atheist.

I would imagine that most under 50 year olds in  Ireland live their lives as if there is no god just as they live their lives that there is no Santa Claus.
As far as I can tell, it's a real minority who  actively believes in any Christian religion in Northern Europe.  Ireland especially has seen  a massive decline due to all the kiddie fiddling and cover ups.

[beninho]

I bet the vast majority of northern Europe will celebrate Christmas in obe form or other. When that is gone I will believe that religion in Europe is a minority until then ill enjoy my mince pies. Anyone had one yet?

[beninho]

On climate change, im no expert and generally don't have strong enough views to debate it. But I am curious as to where the view that extinction rebellion or any other group have said they are the last generation, the comment that upsets surrealist so much.

[super_realist]

On climate change, im no expert and generally don't have strong enough views to debate it. But I am curious as to where the view that extinction rebellion or any other group have said they are the last generation, the comment that upsets surrealist so much.

Because it is spreading lies, unscientific nonsense and unwarranted fear. Why would you want any group to disseminate things that aren't true?
I'm sure you got your knickers in a twist about lies being spread during elections or during Brexit if I recall, so why would it be alright in other aspects of your life?

As to when and where they say it, it was their stock line whenever interviewed in the last  year. It's basically their go to argument.

[super_realist]

I bet the vast majority of northern Europe will celebrate Christmas in obe form or other.  When that is gone I will believe that religion in Europe is a minority until then ill enjoy my mince pies. Anyone had one yet?

Christmas in Europe at least is effectively a secular holiday and has been for decades. The Jeeezus myth element  barely registers for most people or in the media.

[beninho]

On climate change, im no expert and generally don't have strong enough views to debate it. But I am curious as to where the view that extinction rebellion or any other group have said they are the last generation, the comment that upsets surrealist so much.

Because it is spreading lies, unscientific nonsense and unwarranted fear. Why would you want any group to disseminate things that aren't true?
I'm sure you got your knickers in a twist about lies being spread during elections or during Brexit if I recall, so why would it be alright in other aspects of your life?

As to when and where they say it, it was their stock line whenever interviewed in the last  year. It's basically their go to argument.

I cant see it anywhere. Though I've only done a Google search. Now, thats not to say a few may have said it, but doesn't seem to be a big issue to get your knickers in a twist over it. But, I await you pointing it out somewhere as some form of er policy point.

[Davie]

I think XR have revamped their website recently to remove a lot of the most contentious statements they used to make

[beninho]

I bet the vast majority of northern Europe will celebrate Christmas in obe form or other.  When that is gone I will believe that religion in Europe is a minority until then ill enjoy my mince pies. Anyone had one yet?

Christmas in Europe at least is effectively a secular holiday and has been for decades. The Jeeezus myth element  barely registers for most people or in the media.

I would be surprised if anyone celebrating Christmas wasn't aware of its religious Connotations. And I woukd presume anyone vehemently anti religion wouldn't celebrate it.

[super_realist]

On climate change, im no expert and generally don't have strong enough views to debate it. But I am curious as to where the view that extinction rebellion or any other group have said they are the last generation, the comment that upsets surrealist so much.

Because it is spreading lies, unscientific nonsense and unwarranted fear. Why would you want any group to disseminate things that aren't true?
I'm sure you got your knickers in a twist about lies being spread during elections or during Brexit if I recall, so why would it be alright in other aspects of your life?

As to when and where they say it, it was their stock line whenever interviewed in the last  year. It's basically their go to argument.

I cant see it anywhere. Though I've only done a Google search. Now, thats not to say a few may have said it, but doesn't seem to be a big issue to get your knickers in a twist over it. But, I await you pointing it out somewhere as some form of er policy point.

You can't have watched the news much or heard many interviews on radio then as it was a common refrain from them. 
I didn't claim it was their policy to wheel it out ad nauseum I said it was one of the many things about their doomsday cult that annoys me.

[beninho]

I think XR have revamped their website recently to remove a lot of the most contentious statements they used to make

This may be the case. I've found things about people saying we may be the last to have an impact on climate change just not saying we are the last generation because if climate change.

[super_realist]

I bet the vast majority of northern Europe will celebrate Christmas in obe form or other.  When that is gone I will believe that religion in Europe is a minority until then ill enjoy my mince pies. Anyone had one yet?

Christmas in Europe at least is effectively a secular holiday and has been for decades. The Jeeezus myth element  barely registers for most people or in the media.

I would be surprised if anyone celebrating Christmas wasn't aware of its religious Connotations. And I woukd presume anyone vehemently anti religion wouldn't celebrate it.

I'm sure they are aware, my point was that it has become very detached from its relgious meaning/intention, not least because its a feast of materialism so its hardly a tribute is it given that everything about modern Christmas is effectively the opposite of Christian doctrine?

[beninho]

On climate change, im no expert and generally don't have strong enough views to debate it. But I am curious as to where the view that extinction rebellion or any other group have said they are the last generation, the comment that upsets surrealist so much.

Because it is spreading lies, unscientific nonsense and unwarranted fear. Why would you want any group to disseminate things that aren't true?
I'm sure you got your knickers in a twist about lies being spread during elections or during Brexit if I recall, so why would it be alright in other aspects of your life?

As to when and where they say it, it was their stock line whenever interviewed in the last  year. It's basically their go to argument.

I cant see it anywhere. Though I've only done a Google search. Now, thats not to say a few may have said it, but doesn't seem to be a big issue to get your knickers in a twist over it. But, I await you pointing it out somewhere as some form of er policy point.

You can't have watched the news much or heard many interviews on radio then as it was a common refrain from them. 
I didn't claim it was their policy to wheel it out ad nauseum I said it was one of the many things about their doomsday cult that annoys me.

I'm just asking for sonething to back up your stance that this is one of the first things you came out about climate change and er. A few interviews cant have upset you so much?

[super_realist]

And I just told you. It was their defacto line on TV and radio interviews, it was all over their banners. Not my fault if you don't recall it. 
It actually wasn't that long ago that genuine scientists called them out on it which may have been the catalyst which made them take down much of the nonsense on their deadbeat website. 

What annoys may most about them is not the transparent lies they tell as all but the most gullible could see through it, its the lack of consistency in their campaigning, demonising one carbon dioxide source and ignoring others.

[pedro]

Christmas is probably a bad example as it was a pagan winter solstice festival hijacked by christianity. Yet, of course I do celebrate some aspects of Christmas as obviously it’s an ingrained part of our culture. That applies to the taking off work, eating, drinking, materialism and familiy gettogethering. But the religious aspect of it doesn’t mean a thing. The same goes for Easter etc. Surprised religion hasn’t been banned on Twitter etc. as being fake news or not fact checked. But I guess 2000 years of ramblings, dozens of wars and endless persecutions make it newsworthy.

[beninho]

Honestly, they don't bother me at all. I probably find the raging about them pretty funny though. Like the blm lot. It doesn't bother me, but the raging anti blm lot are funny.

[beninho]

Christmas is probably a bad example as it was a pagan winter solstice festival hijacked by christianity. Yet, of course I do celebrate some aspects of Christmas as obviously it’s an ingrained part of our culture. That applies to the taking off work, eating, drinking, materialism and familiy gettogethering. But the religious aspect of it doesn’t mean a thing. The same goes for Easter etc. Surprised religion hasn’t been banned on Twitter etc. as being fake news or not fact checked. But I guess 2000 years of ramblings, dozens of wars and endless persecutions make it newsworthy.

I love Christmas. But hey I got married in a church.

[pedro]

And just like religion, the climate discussion generate its fair share of nutties. That goes for the doomsday cults as well as the revolutionary guard.

[beninho]

Greg Clarke. What a tw@t.

[pedro]

Greg Clarke. What a tw@t.

Yeah, there were some words he should have used more niggardly.

[westisbest]

Discussing climate with mac is like discussing religion with an Irishman.

What makes you think an Irishman can't discuss religion? They may not agree w/ your position, but to simply say they can't discuss it is stereotyping for the sake of it. I'm going to assume you're atheist, which is fine, but if so, you're going to struggle to appreciate their position, assuming they're not also atheist.

I would imagine that most under 50 year olds in  Ireland live their lives as if there is no god just as they live their lives that there is no Santa Claus.
As far as I can tell, it's a real minority who  actively believes in any Christian religion in Northern Europe.  Ireland especially has seen  a massive decline due to all the kiddie fiddling and cover ups.

I’m not religious one bit. No problem with people who are, it’s just not for me.
I’d say there are a good few under 50 who are religious, some that are not.

Each to their own I guess.

[super_realist]

Discussing climate with mac is like discussing religion with an Irishman.

What makes you think an Irishman can't discuss religion? They may not agree w/ your position, but to simply say they can't discuss it is stereotyping for the sake of it. I'm going to assume you're atheist, which is fine, but if so, you're going to struggle to appreciate their position, assuming they're not also atheist.

I would imagine that most under 50 year olds in  Ireland live their lives as if there is no god just as they live their lives that there is no Santa Claus.
As far as I can tell, it's a real minority who  actively believes in any Christian religion in Northern Europe.  Ireland especially has seen  a massive decline due to all the kiddie fiddling and cover ups.

I’m not religious one bit. No problem with people who are, it’s just not for me.
I’d say there are a good few under 50 who are religious, some that are not.

Each to their own I guess.

I would say most aren't wouldn't you? How many people do you know who are relgious? I don't know a single one, although to be fair it's not something many people would like to admit these days as it's rather like being a flat earther or believing in aliens.

Actually I have known a couple who suffer cognitive dissonance due to the evidence of their job contradicting their indoctrination and a couple others at one of those modern happy clappy churches (which are probably some sort of sex cult) but it's pretty rare these days, at least in my experience to see many people believing such tranpsatlrently laughable myths.

[beninho]

This year my mum had a funeral service in a church. I had no 8ssues with that. We had a vicar do the service. It was very emotional and moving and a wonderful service in a wonderful setting.

I find no reason to think that was wrong or remotely strange.

My mum also died clutching her cross. I have no issues with religion if it helps people.

[super_realist]

Some nice buildings are about all I can credit religion for, some cracking houses being made out of them now.

[beninho]

Think we all know you are a religious extremist.

[super_realist]

Think we all know you are a religious extremist.

Why, because I think believing in unjustifiable, bronze age immoral beliefs with no evidence to support them is stupid? Ok, I'm an extremist then.

[beninho]

This is where you get personal. You think I'm stupid and my family are? Because we have had church services for funerals and weddings.

[super_realist]

No, I didn't say that at all. I said that it is stupid to hold a belief in something as immoral and without evidence as Christianity (or any other religion). Are your family stupid? I don't know, but it would be stupid to believe in something which is indistinguishable from a fairy tale wouldn't it? That's not personal, it's a fact. If someone believed in Poseidon, Zeus, Santa Claus or Leprechauns that would be no different and you'd consider that a barmy belief.

I didn't say you were stupid for having funerals or weddings in a Church, because that doesn't imply you or anyone talking part  even believes in it, it's simply a venue and for most people the traditional place to get married or have a funeral.

You went fishing for a response so don't get upset when you get one.

[beninho]

Get upset? That would be strange.

I dont really care what you think, obviously. And I have no issue taking vows in a church or my mum having a cross when she died or a religious ceremony at her funeral.

I do think its curious, how previously you've called people out on saying others are stupid for holding different views, yet you also think others are stupid for holding different views.

[navyblueshorts]

Christmas is probably a bad example as it was a pagan winter solstice festival hijacked by christianity. Yet, of course I do celebrate some aspects of Christmas as obviously it’s an ingrained part of our culture. That applies to the taking off work, eating, drinking, materialism and familiy gettogethering. But the religious aspect of it doesn’t mean a thing. The same goes for Easter etc. Surprised religion hasn’t been banned on Twitter etc. as being fake news or not fact checked. But I guess 2000 years of ramblings, dozens of wars and endless persecutions make it newsworthy.

That and, certainly in the UK, it's a 'protected characteristic' under the Equality Act.

[navyblueshorts]

Honestly, they don't bother me at all. I probably find the raging about them pretty funny though. Like the blm lot. It doesn't bother me, but the raging anti blm lot are funny.

So, it doesn't matter to you what they say or do then?

[navyblueshorts]

Greg Clarke. What a tw@t.

Not sure which side to laugh at tbh. What a waste of air time. Quite surprised he quit, but he's probably fed up of the lightweight shoite he has to deal with at his time of life. It's become more about making sure you don't say something that could be construed as 'offensive' than one's actual actions.

[navyblueshorts]

Get upset?  That would be strange.

I dont really care what you think, obviously.  And I have no issue taking vows in a church or my mum having a cross when she died or a religious ceremony at her funeral.

I do think its curious, how previously you've called people out on saying others are stupid for holding different views, yet you also think others are stupid for holding different views.

Why do you and S_R have so many 'conversations' on here, then? Especially when you clearly agree so rarely?

[beninho]

Honestly, they don't bother me at all. I probably find the raging about them pretty funny though. Like the blm lot. It doesn't bother me, but the raging anti blm lot are funny.

So, it doesn't matter to you what they say or do then?

Maybe it should but it doesn't. Its all my own fault though.

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