Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

How have some individuals got to the point where all they do is whinge and moan and complain about other people without any sense of compassion for those less well off than themselves through no fault of their own?

[beninho]

I think your views are based on you not being a football fan. Looking at just stats and titles. Football fans aren't just looking at that, greatness is more then what you won or even who you played for. Its like being a fan of a small club. You've mentioned before why woukd anyone support a rubbish club, well that's just football.

[Soul Requiem]

Who said that winning the European cup makes someone great?

Seems to me that you're arguing with yourself again, drank his career away but played 470 games for the biggest club in England at the time, what a terrible waste of a career. Best played more times for Manchester United than Van Basten did his whole career for instance.

[super_realist]

Who said that winning the European cup makes someone great?

Seems to me that you're arguing with yourself again, drank his career away but played 470 games for the biggest club in England at the time, what a terrible waste of a career. Best played more times for Manchester United than Van Basten did his whole career for instance.

Van Basten achieved a hell of a lot more in his career.

It's funny that you are trying to imply winning competitions doesn't matter and now it comes down to how often you play, you also have to remember how many games they played back then too and how small the squads were. There's tons of average players who have played hundreds of games, doesn't make them better than Van Basten.

Best played for 9 years, so did Van Basten and VB won considerably more than Best did.

[beninho]

Just yo clarify https://www.manutd.com/en/players-and-staff/detail/george-best

[super_realist]

I think your views are based on you not being a football fan. Looking at just stats and titles. Football fans aren't just looking at that, greatness is more then what you won or even who you played for. Its like being a fan of a small club. You've mentioned before why woukd anyone support a rubbish club, well that's just football.

You have to have a measure for greatness though, you can't just say you like Best, therefore he's a great.
I've said he was skilled, but that's only part of it. Brad Faxon is probably the most skilled putter of all time, does that make him a great? Greatness is measured by winning, and Best didn't really win much. 2 leagues and a European Cup. Plenty of players have done that.

I'd say he could be considered a top 20, but no more than that and I'd also like to point out that all of you "so called football fans" probably know virtually nothing about football in the 1960's and don't have an insight much greater than I do.

[Soul Requiem]

Who said that winning the European cup makes someone great?

Seems to me that you're arguing with yourself again, drank his career away but played 470 games for the biggest club in England at the time, what a terrible waste of a career. Best played more times for Manchester United than Van Basten did his whole career for instance.

Van Basten achieved a hell of a lot more in his career.

It's funny that you are trying to imply winning competitions doesn't matter and now it comes down to how often you play, you also have to remember how many games they played back then too and how small the squads were. There's tons of average players who have played hundreds of games, doesn't make them better than Van Basten.

Best played for 9 years, so did Van Basten and VB won considerably more than Best did.

They played four extra league games a year and on average players played less European football because it was reserved for only the best teams so you're factually incorrect.

So playing for teams who win is the only measure you're capable of using?

[beninho]

I base my views on older players as much on legacy and peer comments. Original Ronaldo was hardly a prolific title winner but he is undoubtedly a great of football. While Benzema has won loads and probably isn't.

[superflyweight]

Always a nice argument to have but it's subjective and you see what you like and make your choice.  Personally have Messi as the greatest just due to the sheer relentless consistency of his brilliance and the fact that he has made the exceptional mundane.  

Although the claims that Maradona won the World Cup single-handedly are a bit over-stated, he probably had the greatest influence that any single player has had over any tournament (although Platini had a hell of a Euro '84) and that has a massive impact on how he is perceived.  Otherwise, you could argue that his peak only lasted around 3 seasons and the rest of career was fairly up and down.

Also think that since around the turn of the century, the Champions League has surpassed the World Cup and is generally played at a much higher level than internatioal football.  International football is miles behind tactically and in terms of cohesion.

[super_realist]

I base my views on older players as much on legacy and peer comments. Original Ronaldo was hardly a prolific title winner but he is undoubtedly a great of football. While Benzema has won loads and probably isn't.

And there we go, you buy into folklore, much like the Scots and Jimmy Johnstone, its almost sacreligous to question how good these guys were, but if you do the backlash against a criticism comes from guys who have barely any experience of whether they were as good as claimed anyway.
Bottom line is you have very limited experience of them, there's not a great deal of footage.

I've said four times now, that Best was highly skilled, but it takes a combination of things to make him a great.
There's a difference to being a great footballer and a football great and I think that's where we might be having a difference of opinion.

Plenty of golfers have been great golfers but I don't think they've been greats of the game, for me I think Best is similar to that.

[Soul Requiem]

And there we go, you buy into folklore, much like the Scots and Jimmy Johnstone, its almost sacreligous to question how good these guys were, but if you do the backlash against a criticism comes from guys who have barely any experience of whether they were as good as claimed anyway.
Bottom line is you have very limited experience of them, there's not a great deal of footage.

You did the exact same thing when you mentioned players you know by name only as being greater

[super_realist]

And there we go, you buy into folklore, much like the Scots and Jimmy Johnstone, its almost sacreligous to question how good these guys were, but if you do the backlash against a criticism comes from guys who have barely any experience of whether they were as good as claimed anyway.
Bottom line is you have very limited experience of them, there's not a great deal of footage.

You did the exact same thing when you mentioned players you know by name only as being greater

Like who? I gave a list of people who I had seen considerably more footage of and who have achieved far more in the game.

If I had mentioned the likes of Oleg Blokin or Lev Yashin then I would agree with you but I gave a list of players who have mountains of available footage of them.
I've seen far more of Beckenbauer or Muller than I ever saw of Best

[Soul Requiem]

What performances of Muller and Beckenbauer should I check out then?

[super_realist]

1970 and 1974 World Cup. Bit more recent than most of what you can find for Best.

[Soul Requiem]

What specific performances and what impressed you about them?

[super_realist]

I could ask the same for Best. You probably weren't even alive when Best was playing.
Muller won the Golden Boot in 70 scoring TEN goals, he also scored 2 in the European Championship final in 72 (and was top scorer) and scored the winner in the 74 WC Final. Fill yer boots.

[Soul Requiem]

I could ask the same for Best. You probably weren't even alive when Best was playing.
Muller won the Golden Boot in 70 scoring TEN goals, he also scored 2 in the European Championship final in 72 (and was top scorer) and scored the winner in the 74 WC Final. Fill yer boots.
The Fifa Player of the Century has Beckenbauer at 8, Muller at 13 and the Oirish dipso at 20

So basically you haven't actually watched any of them play.

Best came sixth in the grand jury Fifa player of the century which was voted on by Journalists, officials and coaches as opposed to the internet vote you're referring to. Beckenbauer was 4th and Muller 10th. Realistically you can assume C. Ronaldo, Messi and Zidane would now be ahead of him with Ronaldinho having the potential to be a maverick choice in such a thing. The fact you have to resort to derogatory terms sums you up.

[super_realist]

Look, it's my opinion. I think best was a great footballer, but I don't think he's a great of football because he only played domestic football, won very little and spent 10 years playing for nobodies. When you're more famous for being a womanising, carousing drunk than for your football, probably says it all.
Dipso isn't a derogatory term.

[Soul Requiem]

If you're using it as a means of describing someone then yes it is a derogatory term as you well know.

[beninho]

Gerd muller is in the group of great footballers

[super_realist]

Gerd muller is in the group of great footballers

No one claimed he wasn't.

[McLaren]

Super

Why do you think international football is the peak of the game?

[super_realist]

Super

Why do you think international football is the peak of the game?

I didn't say it was the peak of the game, I said it was an additional measure of determining a players career success.

Do you not think that performing well at International Football adds to a players reputation?
Would Maradona be rated so highly had he not pllyed in World Cups? Of course he wouldn't. We may never have heard of him if he hadn't. How much do you remember of Maradona in the European Cup?
Many things add up to how good a players career has been, it's not just their individual talent.

[navyblueshorts]

That’s the thing with Maradona. Unfortunately he will be remembered mostly by some people as ‘the hand of  god’.

Nah. Not by me anyway. The fact that he never really acknowledged what he did was a pity. He was a sportsman - anyone who sees them as role models is likely to be disappointed. I just enjoyed watching him play football - awesome.

Plenty of players have cheated and got away with it, many English among them.

Think you misread my comment.

[navyblueshorts]

Like everything in life, my view is context is key.

Convenient. What too many don't grasp is that one can't jump up and down about inappropriate language in one area, but then ignore similar in others.

I've definitely said sone misogynistic things, and definitely laughed at things i shouldn't have. I'll live with it.

Glad you're at peace with that. However, the next time someone else writes/says something that hits your woke bone, perhaps refrain from replying?

Navy

Why are you so sensitive to non PC language being called out?

What words or phrases would you like to see come back into popular use that have currently fallen out of favour due to the advancement of political correctness?

Point missed again I see. I'm sensitive to hypocrisy around this issue, you plumb.

[navyblueshorts]

9 years at United and 10 playing for utter excrement. If you're that good, why is more than half your career spent with teams that barely anyone has ever heard of?

I'm not sure how anyone who has never even played at a major finals could ever be considered a great. Imagine never going to the Olympics and being considered a great athlete.He didn't really win that much either. One European Cup and two leagues. Big deal, even a cart horse like John Terry has done that.


No doubt he was a fine player, but he pissed half his career up against a wall.

He was Northern Irish! Honestly. And this before the stupid residency bypasses that're used all the time these days. People far more knowledgable that you (and I don't mean on these boards) laugh in your general direction.

[beninho]

https://vote.globesoccer.com/vote/2020-century-player

Who gets the vote for player of tge century?

I'd go Messi, Ronaldo C, iniesta, xavi, kaka - honourable mention to S Ramon.

[McLaren]

Super

The only thing I remember about Maradona is his 1994 world cup debacle. I was a small child or not born for his greatest achievements.


Anyway I am not really sure what you are arguing. Best was clearly not as good as Maradona but was still one of the all time greats.

In modern terms Maradona is like Messi and Best would be on someone like Neymar or Aguero's level. One of the best ever vs a great of an era.

[super_realist]

My point Mac was that I see Best as a great player, but I don't see him as a footballing great.

I see Nick Price and John Daly as being great golfers, but I don't see them as greats of the game.

[McLaren]

https://vote.globesoccer.com/vote/2020-century-player

Who gets the vote for player of tge century?

I'd go Messi, Ronaldo C, iniesta, xavi, kaka - honourable mention to S Ramon.

Top 5
Messi

(chasm)

Iniesta
Christiano
Xavi
Zidane


(Ps that poll is a mess. Salah at 27% and Messi only on 19%)

[McLaren]

My point Mac was that I see Best as a great player, but I don't see him as a footballing great.

I see Nick Price and John Daly as being great golfers, but I don't see them as greats of the game.

Then you have underrated Best. He is more in the Seve or Palmer level of greatness. Whereas Maradona is like a Watson, and then Messi is like Woods or Jack.

[super_realist]

9 years at United and 10 playing for utter excrement. If you're that good, why is more than half your career spent with teams that barely anyone has ever heard of?

I'm not sure how anyone who has never even played at a major finals could ever be considered a great. Imagine never going to the Olympics and being considered a great athlete.He didn't really win that much either. One European Cup and two leagues. Big deal, even a cart horse like John Terry has done that.


No doubt he was a fine player, but he pissed half his career up against a wall.

He was Northern Irish! Honestly. And this before the stupid residency bypasses that're used all the time these days. People far more knowledgable that you (and I don't mean on these boards) laugh in your general direction.

You do realise that Northern Ireland HAVE played in a World Cup three times though and actually did quite well on at least one occasion?

Were there stupid residency clauses in 82 and 86? I think it was the Repuic who were more famous for that in the 90's giving Cascarino a game because he had a pint of guiness

[JuliusHMarx]

My point Mac was that I see Best as a great player, but I don't see him as a footballing great.

I see Nick Price and John Daly as being great golfers, but I don't see them as greats of the game.

Nick Price is one of the great golfing anagrams.

[McLaren]

Nice prick?

[super_realist]

His caddie Squeaky was certainly the second half of that anagram. Told me off in a ridiculous fashion for getting a wrong score on the board at the Dunhill. He got short shrift.

[Soul Requiem]

1. Ronaldinho
2. Zidane (did just enough this century)
3. Messi
4. Kaka
5. Ronaldo

Basing that more on peak level than career consistency.

[beninho]

I missed Zidane. Zidane get in my list over Kaka. Though Messi still top, though not my favourite player.

[Soul Requiem]

I missed Zidane.  Zidane get in my list over Kaka. Though Messi still top, though not my favourite player.

I rate Messi but i've never enjoyed watching him, whether that's because I regard Barcelona as cynical cheats I don't know or the fact referees afford them far too much protection.

[JuliusHMarx]

Nice prick?

Yes thanks

[navyblueshorts]

9 years at United and 10 playing for utter excrement. If you're that good, why is more than half your career spent with teams that barely anyone has ever heard of?

I'm not sure how anyone who has never even played at a major finals could ever be considered a great. Imagine never going to the Olympics and being considered a great athlete.He didn't really win that much either. One European Cup and two leagues. Big deal, even a cart horse like John Terry has done that.


No doubt he was a fine player, but he pissed half his career up against a wall.

He was Northern Irish! Honestly. And this before the stupid residency bypasses that're used all the time these days. People far more knowledgable that you (and I don't mean on these boards) laugh in your general direction.

You do realise that Northern Ireland HAVE played in a World Cup three times though and actually did quite well on at least one occasion?

Were there stupid residency clauses in 82 and 86? I think it was the Repuic who were more famous for that in the 90's giving Cascarino a game because he had a pint of guiness

Not sure what your point is here. Yes, NI have qualified, but '58 was well before Best and '82 etc well after. It's not like NI are renowned regulars at the WC. I've no idea what the residency clauses were in '82/'86, but playing for a different team to that where you were born appears to be a lot more common than it was.
It's OK; we disagree. I think Best wasn't able to showcase his talent at the WC and NI only made the Euros once, in 2016. I'm happy to think that, had he been able to play at either at the peak of his abilities, he'd have amply demonstrated just how good he was. As I said, GOAT discussions are pretty pointless.

[super_realist]

The point was that they have proven they are capable of qualifying, so if Best was as great as claimed why couldn't he have the influence to replicate qualification?
If he had been from San Marino or Faroe Islands then I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to get them to a tournament, but NI made it to 3 tournaments without Best, why couldn't they do it with him if he was so brilliant? Part of that is because half his career was wasted and he only had a few opportunities to get them there, he effectively only had 9 years atms a player and ten as a bum pretending to be a footballer.

[JAS]

https://vote.globesoccer.com/vote/2020-century-player

Who gets the vote for player of tge century?

I'd go Messi, Ronaldo C, iniesta, xavi, kaka - honourable mention to S Ramon.

Top 5
Messi

(chasm)

Iniesta
Christiano
Xavi
Zidane


(Ps that poll is a mess. Salah at 27% and Messi only on 19%)

That's the problem with those kind of polls, the average fan will have a blind bias coupled with the memory of a goldfish. I'd like to think my memory is somewhat better than a goldfish, I think Maradona, Pele, Best & Cruyff would scrape into the top 10 with Jim Baxter, Davie Cooper, Paul Gasgoigne, Brian Laudrup & John Greig ;-)

[super_realist]

Very true Jas, although Ruid Gullit highly rates Davie Cooper.
Bit before my time.

[McLaren]

:picard: Point missed again I see. I'm sensitive to hypocrisy around this issue, you plumb.

How do you think you should behave in response to hypocrisy around inappropriate language?

What words or phrases would you alter you usage of based on hypocrisy?

[JAS]

Very true Jas, although Ruid Gullit highly rates Davie Cooper.
Bit before my time.

Oh aye, Gullit, Id forgot about him, he could have the 10th spot then :-p

It's all very subjective trying to say who was the best and who's better than who and how you load it between technical skill, vision, talent and achievement and other factors, yes even off field factors. The extent of the penchant for the Bolivian marching powder tarnishes the overall image of DM and has probably brought yesterdays event a decade or 2 forward. Not exactly role modelish.

It's also especially difficult trying to judge individual skill and talent in a team game. That I think is where Maradona stands out. Would Napoli have won series A without him?, would Argentina have won the WC in 86 without him? In both cases almost certainly no. Although I'd still say Pele was the greatest in terms of overall skill and vision, would Brazil still have won the World cup in '58, '62 & '70 without him? Yeah probably. He also never plied his trade in Europe, if he had, would he have made a significant impact? Yeah probably.

[super_realist]

I reject the idea that any sportsperson needs to be or act like  a role model.
I especially reject that footballers should be role models given how lacking in taste and culture so many of them are. No one expects actors or musicians to be role models so I'm not sure why sports people are expected to be.
Predictable trophy wives, predictable and cliched cars, houses that look like Liberace designed them, SS Guard haircuts, awful dress sense and music  and very often a  complete lack of intelligence, education or ability to articulate.
I envy their money, but nothing else.

[beninho]

I've got a book on Garrincha, which is brilliant. Anyway, it says that most peopke say Pele was the greatest but Brazilians say Garrincha.

[Soul Requiem]

I've got a book on Garrincha, which is brilliant. Anyway, it says that most peopke say Pele was the greatest but Brazilians say Garrincha.

Garrincha is the one true 'GOAT'.

[beninho]

I've got a book on Garrincha, which is brilliant. Anyway, it says that most peopke say Pele was the greatest but Brazilians say Garrincha.

Garrincha is the one true 'GOAT'.

Oh yes..

And if you though George Best was a boozer

[dynamark]

Id like a round of golf with Jon Daly over most.
Footy wise have any of you seen Riyad Mahrez up close it is just ridiculous football skill. his feet are like scissors snapping about captain of his country but probably never quite right for defending at Man City.Have a look at some u tube stuff.Football in a phone box very impressive .
Hope everyone well staring to get seriously fed up now.

[navyblueshorts]

Point missed again I see. I'm sensitive to hypocrisy around this issue, you plumb.

How do you think you should behave in response to hypocrisy around inappropriate language?

What words or phrases would you alter you usage of based on hypocrisy?

What ARE you on about?

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