Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

How have some individuals got to the point where all they do is whinge and moan and complain about other people without any sense of compassion for those less well off than themselves through no fault of their own?

[JAS]

The least competitive "sport" in the world.

Spoty has long been a joke.

Serie A?
Bundelegua?
ligue 1?
100m when Bolt was around?
Tennis when only Nadal, Roger and Novak could win grand slams?


I could go on. In general sports have dominant figures. Not sure if any sports worth watching have ever conformed to the breadth of competitive participation you seek.

Please don't!! Tennis when only Nadal, Roger and Novak could win...wtf?? Apart from the fact that there were epic matches when either of them 3 faced each other, there was also the fact that Murray (3) Wawrinka (3) Del Potro, Cilic, Thiem, Safin, Gaudio have all won slams in that period so I don't think you can put tennis in that bracket.

[super_realist]

Was Rashford nominated?

Why would he be? He hasn't had a season worthy of winning an award. Footballers also rarely win.

[JAS]

Was Rashford nominated?

No but they gave him a special prize for his non sporty humanitarian efforts. Kind of says a lot about a) the program and it's direction and b) the country and it's direction and c) the media in general and their neediness for cultural heroes

[McLaren]

The least competitive "sport" in the world.

Spoty has long been a joke.

Serie A?
Bundelegua?
ligue 1?
100m when Bolt was around?
Tennis when only Nadal, Roger and Novak could win grand slams?


I could go on. In general sports have dominant figures. Not sure if any sports worth watching have ever conformed to the breadth of competitive participation you seek.

Please don't!! Tennis when only Nadal, Roger and Novak could win...wtf?? Apart from the fact that there were epic matches when either of them 3 faced each other, there was also the fact that Murray (3) Wawrinka (3) Del Potro, Cilic, Thiem, Safin, Gaudio have all won slams in that period so I don't think you can put tennis in that bracket.

Jas the point is that the top of any sport isn't that competitive in the sense Super is looking for. Golf is almost as close as you will get to having a situation where a large proportion of the competitors can win the event.

In the seasons where you have two or even three teams that can win a race you are looking at about as competitive as top line sports get. Even tennis.

As I pointed out most top sports leagues have dominant teams and individual sports tend to go through periods of varying degrees of domination.

[super_realist]

F1 isn't competitive by definition Mac. There is always a team with a technological advantage when in every other "sport" they have access to the same equipment.

[beninho]

I watched it, it was alright. I have no issues with Hamilton winning. I wish they had removed the homophobe Fury though.

[super_realist]

The least competitive "sport" in the world.

Spoty has long been a joke.

Serie A?
Bundelegua?
ligue 1?
100m when Bolt was around?
Tennis when only Nadal, Roger and Novak could win grand slams?


I could go on. In general sports have dominant figures. Not sure if any sports worth watching have ever conformed to the breadth of competitive participation you seek.

Please don't!! Tennis when only Nadal, Roger and Novak could win...wtf?? Apart from the fact that there were epic matches when either of them 3 faced each other, there was also the fact that Murray (3) Wawrinka (3) Del Potro, Cilic, Thiem, Safin, Gaudio have all won slams in that period so I don't think you can put tennis in that bracket.

Jas the point is that the top of any sport isn't that competitive in the sense Super is looking for. Golf is almost as close as you will get to having a situation where a large proportion of the competitors can win the event.

In the seasons where you have two or even three teams that can win a race you are looking at about as competitive as top line sports get. Even tennis.

As I pointed out most top sports leagues have dominant teams and individual sports tend to go through periods of varying degrees of domination.

Mac, F1 isn't competitive at all. If you're in the best car and you are the primary team driver you are going to win the Championship, that's why it's boring and predictable.

At least in football, tennis etc there's 3-4 people who are favourite to win.
I'm not looking for any 1 of 20 teams to win, but I don't expect to have a situation when one team in a sport has better technology and a better car than anyone else.
I'm sure he's a great driver, but his car is more important than his talent. Would he be Champion so often if he drove for Ferrari?, not a chance.

[beninho]

Would Djimi Traore be a champions league winner if he didn't play for Liverpool?

[super_realist]

Would Djimi Traore be a champions league winner if he didn't play for Liverpool?

It's not the team that is my issue. Was Traore using boots which enabled him to put in a better performance than they team he was playing against?

Hamilton is World Champion primarily because he drives for a team who have built a car to be quicker.
There is no such performance advantage in other sports gained by what equipment you use, because everyone has access to the same equipment.

F1 should be either handicapped, or every team should use equipment which falls within a far narrower window than the regulations currently stipulate.

It's so obvious that Vettel, Button and Hamilton all won when they were clearly in the best car and that takes away considerably the credit to which I could give any driver.  If a team makes a car next year that is quicker than Mercedes and as reliable, that driver will in all likelihood win the championship, simple as that and that makes it terminally boring and not exactly a sport.

[beninho]

Would Djimi Traore be a champions league winner if he didn't play for Liverpool?

It's not the team that is my issue. Was Traore using boots which enabled him to put in a better performance than they team he was playing against?

Hamilton is World Champion primarily because he drives for a team who have built a car to be quicker.
There is no such performance advantage in other sports gained by what equipment you use, because everyone has access to the same equipment.

F1 should be either handicapped, or every team should use equipment which falls within a far narrower window than the regulations currently stipulate.

It's so obvious that Vettel, Button and Hamilton all won when they were clearly in the best car and that takes away considerably the credit to which I could give any driver.  If a team makes a car next year that is quicker than Mercedes and as reliable, that driver will in all likelihood win the championship, simple as that and that makes it terminally boring and not exactly a sport.

OK. Your not a fan. Think we are all aware of that.

[McLaren]

Super

Are you aware f1 is a team sport?

[navyblueshorts]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/20/lewis-hamilton-wins-bbc-sports-personality-of-the-year-award

Well deserved.

Not really, no. Not IMO anyway. I base that purely on the fact F1 is, and has long been, simply an engineering competition. Hamilton regularly beat his partner - big deal.

[super_realist]

Super

Are you aware f1 is a team sport?

Yes I am, and depending on the outcome of the first few races one of the drivers will be favoured over the other one. Hence the coin toss element of the engineering competition.

I would appreciate F1 more if the teams were equal, then you genuinely get the best driver winning, at present you get the best driver in the one team with the best car winning the Championship. How can you find it interesting? It's not like there's any real overtaking. If you're into motorsports and want exciting racing I'm told Moto GP is better from that perspective.
F1 is just a procession.

[super_realist]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/20/lewis-hamilton-wins-bbc-sports-personality-of-the-year-award

Well deserved.

Not really, no. Not IMO anyway. I base that purely on the fact F1 is, and has long been, simply an engineering competition. Hamilton regularly beat his partner - big deal.

That really is all it is.
Surprised Mac is so into it, when he isn't into cars in the first place.

[beninho]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/20/lewis-hamilton-wins-bbc-sports-personality-of-the-year-award

Well deserved.

Not really, no. Not IMO anyway. I base that purely on the fact F1 is, and has long been, simply an engineering competition. Hamilton regularly beat his partner - big deal.

And its bloody impressive the engineering techniques they keep coming up with. Cars are getting faster and faster while engines get smaller.

I have no issues with people not liking it, hey, I'd rather pull my eyes out then watch rugby, though I think most if not all should be able to accept Hamilton as supremely talented.

[JAS]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/20/lewis-hamilton-wins-bbc-sports-personality-of-the-year-award

Well deserved.

Not really, no. Not IMO anyway. I base that purely on the fact F1 is, and has long been, simply an engineering competition. Hamilton regularly beat his partner - big deal.

And its bloody impressive the engineering techniques they keep coming up with. Cars are getting faster and faster while engines get smaller.

I have no issues with people not liking it, hey, I'd rather pull my eyes out then watch rugby,  though I think most if not all should be able to accept Hamilton as supremely talented.

I'm a bit like that with cricket (rather pull my eyes out) but each to their own.

Formula 1 does indeed foster some goddamn impressive engineering there is no doubt about that (I'm actually a time served engineer to trade - turning & milling. - I spent 9 years with BAe making aircraft parts mostly to very very fine tolerances so I do have some kind of appreciation of leading edge engineering). Doesn't necessarily make Hamilton a great sportsman/athlete though. Then again every sport is different and demands different skills. Hamilton must have fantastic reaction & endurance as well as a fair degree of longevity to stay at the top of his game for the period that he has so fair dos.

[super_realist]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/20/lewis-hamilton-wins-bbc-sports-personality-of-the-year-award

Well deserved.

Not really, no. Not IMO anyway. I base that purely on the fact F1 is, and has long been, simply an engineering competition. Hamilton regularly beat his partner - big deal.

And its bloody impressive the engineering techniques they keep coming up with. Cars are getting faster and faster while engines get smaller.

I have no issues with people not liking it, hey, I'd rather pull my eyes out then watch rugby,  though I think most if not all should be able to accept Hamilton as supremely talented.

You're right, the engineering is impressive, far more than the driving.
I'm sure he's a talented driver, but if he's in the car which is clearly superior to the other cars then how does that make it "sporting?"
It's like one player being allowed to use a driver which hits the ball farther than anyone else's because its technology is better.
Surely it's in the interest of the "sport" to make it a more level playing field

[navyblueshorts]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/20/lewis-hamilton-wins-bbc-sports-personality-of-the-year-award

Well deserved.

Not really, no. Not IMO anyway. I base that purely on the fact F1 is, and has long been, simply an engineering competition. Hamilton regularly beat his partner - big deal.

And its bloody impressive the engineering techniques they keep coming up with. Cars are getting faster and faster while engines get smaller.

I have no issues with people not liking it, hey, I'd rather pull my eyes out then watch rugby,  though I think most if not all should be able to accept Hamilton as supremely talented.

I agree that the engineering is really impressive (not w/ the rugby comment, however), but that's not what I watch sport for. I don't deny Hamilton is a talented driver; he definitely is.

[super_realist]

Yet to hear what it is that people find so interesting about watching F1. Will nobody explain why a one horse race is so captivating?

[beninho]

Yet to hear what it is that people find so interesting about watching F1. Will nobody explain why a one horse race is so captivating?

Depends if its just the winners you care about. I don't. I enjoy it, and watch almost every race.

[super_realist]

Yet to hear what it is that people find so interesting about watching F1. Will nobody explain why a one horse race is so captivating?

Depends if its just the winners you care about. I don't. I enjoy it, and watch almost every race.

Yes, but what about it is so interesting? It lacks competition, lack overtaking and lacks a level playing field so what is it that keeps you watching?

[beninho]

Yet to hear what it is that people find so interesting about watching F1. Will nobody explain why a one horse race is so captivating?

Depends if its just the winners you care about. I don't. I enjoy it, and watch almost every race.

Yes, but what about it is so interesting? It lacks competition, lack overtaking and lacks a level playing field so what is it that keeps you watching?

Doesn't lack competition, watching Sainz and Norwich battle against the RP and Renault teams was great. Getting 3rd place for Mclaren was great, it meant a lot to them. Overtaking isn't the most important thing to f1 fans either. And level playing doesn't bother me. Its never been a level playing field, I probably wouldn't watch it if that was important.

[super_realist]

Fair enough. I don't get it myself. It's a bit like caring who comes 30 th in a golf event to me, but whatever floats your boat.

[beninho]

People have their favourite golfers, who may not be in the top echelon of player. People will care if they make the cut or get a top 10. Its the same with football, People don't all support Liverpool or Manchester City. Most people don't watch football teams for the success. If my team finish 1 place out of the Relegation zone this year I would be ecstatic ( unlikely).

[beninho]

At the PM press conference, johnson said 174 Lorries stuck in Kent. So, did he lie to the public or just not on top of what he should know?

[I'm never wrong]

At the PM press conference, johnson said 174 Lorries stuck in Kent. So, did he lie to the public or just not on top of what he should know?

I believe that it takes so long to get these press conferences together, that he used a figure he was given early on. No one thought to get it updated to make it fresh.

[super_realist]

People have their favourite golfers, who may not be in the top echelon of player. People will care if they make the cut or get a top 10. Its the same with football, People don't all support Liverpool or Manchester City. Most people don't watch football teams for the success. If my team finish 1 place out of the Relegation zone this year I would be ecstatic ( unlikely).

I understand that, I just don't understand what is appealing about F1 as a spectacle given how predictable and unfair it is.

We are all golfers so know what it is like to play golf, we have all played football, tennis, rugby etc so know what it's like to do that. None of us has ever done anything close to F1 so I don't get how anyone can relate to it or have passion for something they are so detached from. I don't think it generates much excitement or action, so I'm at a loss to see the attraction.
I get being a fan of a struggling club because you have an affinity with it, I just don't see the connection with F1 or F1 drivers.

[super_realist]

At the PM press conference, johnson said 174 Lorries stuck in Kent. So, did he lie to the public or just not on top of what he should know?

Dianne Flabbot moment?

[navyblueshorts]

At the PM press conference, johnson said 174 Lorries stuck in Kent. So, did he lie to the public or just not on top of what he should know?

Dianne Flabbot moment?

He's had a few of them, to be fair.

[Shotrock]

My observation is that F1 (not unlike baseball) is a sport that needs to be appreciated in the particulars. Endurance and reaction for the top drivers is incredible, but worth almost noting if they don't have the machine under them that is equal+ to their competitors. I recall reading that most of us would not be able to drive an F1 car around the track once. We simply could not stand the G forces necessary to keep it from stalling out. I also read that significant G force is required for adequate braking at speed. Tire management also seems to be a large part of success in the sport.

I had a client that was big into Nascar for a while, and did some promotional work with them. Could not get over how much it cost to be a title sponsor to a race. Personally, I prefer F1 to Nascar since they actually turn right and left.

[McLaren]

What Super is missing about F1 is that it is a team sport. The person who designs a component on the car is as important as one of the players on the field in other team sports. And the sport is purposefully run in a way that makes the science just as important an element of winning as the driving.


And on the idea that only one or two teams can win the championship, are we going to discount all competitions where this is the case? Because as I mentioned previously we would have to throw out most of the top football leagues in Europe, Mens tennis, many athletic events, most boxing, and a lot more.
The second team element Super does not understand is how important it is to have a driver that can help a team in research and development. It is rare to find a driver that can provide feedback to the engineers which repeatedly results in fruitful research or set up changes. Hamilton is one of those drivers, possibly the best since Schumacher.

It is no coincidence that Mercedes keep getting better with Hamilton in the team. He does not lead them down research dead ends and his input means they have a lot more reliable data to work with. I suppose it is like an aviation company having a top test pilot.

[super_realist]

I don't care that its a team event Mac. I care about whether I think it's entertaining.

A tennis player or footballer, or boxer doesn't have a technological advantage over theor peers. Their success is down to their talent.

If Hamilton is so great, then why wasn't he helping his team make massive strides when he wasn't winning? How come Vettel suddenly stopped being this fantastic resource that led research and development?
Why is it that your point only relates to the winning driver?

Hamilton also has no impact on the engineering side of things, for example KERS, only how the car is set up to his particular liking, same as all the other drivers.

I've never argued that he isn't a top talent, just that a lot of his success is down to whatever team he happens to be part of and where they currently are in the race to have the fastest car.
If you're in the best car, that makes it an unfair race.
Nadal and Federer didn't win so many Grand Slams because they have a better tennis racquet. Bolt doesn't win because his shoes were faster. Hamilton wins because his car is better than other teams and he has the pecking order in his team.

[McLaren]

My observation is that F1 (not unlike baseball) is a sport that needs to be appreciated in the particulars. Endurance and reaction for the top drivers is incredible, but worth almost noting if they don't have the machine under them that is equal+ to their competitors. I recall reading that most of us would not be able to drive an F1 car around the track once. We simply could not stand the G forces necessary to keep it from stalling out. I also read that significant G force is required for adequate braking at speed. Tire management also seems to be a large part of success in the sport.

I had a client that was big into Nascar for a while, and did some promotional work with them. Could not get over how much it cost to be a title sponsor to a race. Personally, I prefer F1 to Nascar since they actually turn right and left.

Yes the cars operate in a very narrow performance band in terms of tyre temps, brake temps, fuel consumption, tyre tread depth, cooling etc. Even some of the best drivers cannot keep all these plates spinning all the time (Hamilton one of the few who can) and run into difficulties. Not balancing all these elements can add 10's of seconds to your race time.

[McLaren]

I don't care that its a team event Mac. I care about whether I think it's entertaining.

That is fine. But why have you strayed beyond telling us whether you think it is entertaining or not to just talking complete rubbish about a subject you know very little about?

You appear to be offering what you think are facts about f1.

[beninho]

Hamilton joined Merc in 2013. They won the world title in 2014 and onwards. While not purely Hamilton. I dont think he was completely unhelpful in the development of the championship winning car.

[navyblueshorts]

What Super is missing about F1 is that it is a team sport. The person who designs a component on the car is as important as one of the players on the field in other team sports. And the sport is purposefully run in a way that makes the science just as important an element of winning as the driving.


And on the idea that only one or two teams can win the championship, are we going to discount all competitions where this is the case? Because as I mentioned previously we would have to throw out most of the top football leagues in Europe, Mens tennis, many athletic events, most boxing, and a lot more.
The second team element Super does not understand is how important it is to have a driver that can help a team in research and development. It is rare to find a driver that can provide feedback to the engineers which repeatedly results in fruitful research or set up changes. Hamilton is one of those drivers, possibly the best since Schumacher.

It is no coincidence that Mercedes keep getting better with Hamilton in the team. He does not lead them down research dead ends and his input means they have a lot more reliable data to work with. I suppose it is like an aviation company having a top test pilot.

All very well and good, Mac, but none of that makes race day any more exciting for the viewer. It might well be better live, at the track, but on TV it's utterly mind-numbing. IMO; other opinions are also available.

[navyblueshorts]

Hamilton joined Merc in 2013. They won the world title in 2014 and onwards. While not purely Hamilton. I dont think he was completely unhelpful in the development of the championship winning car.

Nah. He joined them because he knew what their development was like and where it was about to lead. He joined them after all (or most of) that hard work was done.

[beninho]

Hamilton joined Merc in 2013. They won the world title in 2014 and onwards. While not purely Hamilton. I dont think he was completely unhelpful in the development of the championship winning car.

Nah. He joined them because he knew what their development was like and where it was about to lead. He joined them after all (or most of) that hard work was done.

You may recall though that it was a massive shock when he moved to a pretty mediocre team though, Robert and Schumacher were not setting the world alight. Obviously he knew that they looked good for 2014, but he still would have given feedback on how the car drives, as all that was being made was an engine, a new engine design for all. You cant test cars like before so driver feedback is fundamental.

Anyway, I know I'm in a minority who love f1, and respect LH achievements.

[westisbest]

I find Watching F1 very dull, probably why I don’t watch it.

That’s how I play the game

[I'm never wrong]

Mac, you bang on about it's a team event, but hardly anyone on the outside of the sport thinks about the constructors championship, all the news is about the drivers championship. (The constructors championship and the points they win are important to the teams for financial reasons, but not for Joe Public watching on TV).
My other point is look what happened at the Sakhir Grand Prix. George Russell, driving a car that was set up for Lewis Hamilton would have won the race if it wasn't for mistakes by the Mercedes team. In my mind this proves that the car was the important factor in the race, rather than the driver. You might say that George Russell is that good, but I don't think so. Not yet anyway.

Think about this then Mac.

Why does F1 have pit stops for tyres?
Why did F1 used to have pit stops for fuel?
Why does F1 have DRS?

Just three things off the top of my head that were/are introduced to try and make the racing more interesting, because the powers that be realise otherwise it would be more boring than it is.

[beninho]

I tend to not watch things I'm not a fan of either. Tbough I dont hunt down the people who do and request they tell me why I shoukd watch what they enjoy

[beninho]

Mac, you bang on about it's a team event, but hardly anyone on the outside of the sport thinks about the constructors championship, all the news is about the drivers championship. (The constructors championship and the points they win are important to the teams for financial reasons, but not for Joe Public watching on TV).
My other point is look what happened at the Sakhir Grand Prix. George Russell, driving a car that was set up for Lewis Hamilton would have won the race if it wasn't for mistakes by the Mercedes team. In my mind this proves that the car was the important factor in the race, rather than the driver. You might say that George Russell is that good, but I don't think so. Not yet anyway.

Think about this then Mac.

Why does F1 have pit stops for tyres?
Why did F1 used to have pit stops for fuel?
Why does F1 have DRS?

Just three things off the top of my head that were/are introduced to try and make the racing more interesting, because the powers that be realise otherwise it would be more boring than it is.

As a fan, the racing can be dull. I doubt you would find a fan who would think otherwise.

[beninho]

On a different note, the wife is getting me some new golf shoes, though fk knows when I'll play again. Any recommendations? White or black?

[BlueCoverman]

If you get the black ones don't forget to take the knee

[super_realist]

Hamilton joined Merc in 2013. They won the world title in 2014 and onwards. While not purely Hamilton. I dont think he was completely unhelpful in the development of the championship winning car.

Nah. He joined them because he knew what their development was like and where it was about to lead. He joined them after all (or most of) that hard work was done.

You may recall though that it was a massive shock when he moved to a pretty mediocre team though, Robert and Schumacher were not setting the world alight. Obviously he knew that they looked good for 2014, but he still would have given feedback on how the car drives, as all that was being made was an engine, a new engine design for all.  You cant test cars like before so driver feedback is fundamental.

Anyway, I know I'm in a minority who love f1, and respect LH achievements.

Do you not realise how far in advance products and technology are in the pipeline before being released? Do you think Mercedes suddenly became competitive because of Hamilton's input?
Stick to housing.

[super_realist]

On a different note, the wife is getting me some new golf shoes, though fk knows when I'll play again. Any recommendations? White or black?

Get both.

[beninho]

Hamilton joined Merc in 2013. They won the world title in 2014 and onwards. While not purely Hamilton. I dont think he was completely unhelpful in the development of the championship winning car.

Nah. He joined them because he knew what their development was like and where it was about to lead. He joined them after all (or most of) that hard work was done.

You may recall though that it was a massive shock when he moved to a pretty mediocre team though, Robert and Schumacher were not setting the world alight. Obviously he knew that they looked good for 2014, but he still would have given feedback on how the car drives, as all that was being made was an engine, a new engine design for all.  You cant test cars like before so driver feedback is fundamental.

Anyway, I know I'm in a minority who love f1, and respect LH achievements.

Do you not realise how far in advance products and technology are in the pipeline before being released? Do you think Mercedes suddenly became competitive because of Hamilton's input?
Stick to housing.

Nope, I think i made that pretty clear. Can you read?

[super_realist]

Of course he gives feedback on how the car drives, but so does every other driver.
Hamilton for most of his career a has been in the superior car and as such that denudes part of the element of sport for me.
No other sport gives you a technogocal advantage like this and as such any achievement within said sport gets less credit from me.

[beninho]

Of course he gives feedback on how the car drives, but so does every other driver.
Hamilton for most of his career a has been in the superior car and as such that denudes part of the element of sport for me.
No other sport gives you a technogocal advantage like this and as such any achievement within said sport gets less credit from me.

OK. I'm sure f1 will survive without the credit of yourself. I'm looking forward to the new season.

[Soul Requiem]

Hamilton joined Merc in 2013. They won the world title in 2014 and onwards. While not purely Hamilton. I dont think he was completely unhelpful in the development of the championship winning car.

Nah. He joined them because he knew what their development was like and where it was about to lead. He joined them after all (or most of) that hard work was done.

You may recall though that it was a massive shock when he moved to a pretty mediocre team though, Robert and Schumacher were not setting the world alight. Obviously he knew that they looked good for 2014, but he still would have given feedback on how the car drives, as all that was being made was an engine, a new engine design for all.  You cant test cars like before so driver feedback is fundamental.

Anyway, I know I'm in a minority who love f1, and respect LH achievements.

Schumacher and Kubica were both known for their know how so I don't think it's a stretch to think the pair played a more pivotal part in the development of the car than Hamilton. Back in his Mclaren days he was the superior driver to Button but Jenson provided more technical feedback no?

What's worth considering is that the team that manufactures the best car will want the best driver behind the wheel which is without doubt Hamilton. The Merc has on the whole been the superior car on the grid but in 2017 and 2018 it was not and Hamilton's driving ability overcame the difference against Vettel in the Ferrari.

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