England vs Georgia

by No 7&1/2 Tue 03 Nov 2020, 8:27 am

First topic message reminder :

I'll be lazy and just half inch the BBC article!

'Back in January, Eddie Jones warned his players of the curse of the beaten World Cup finalists.
The England boss was wary his side could be vulnerable in 2020 after the emotional and mental toll the tournament in Japan had taken.
Jones' concerns looked justified after England were swept aside by a hungry France a matter of days later, a result which scuppered their chances of a Grand Slam.
Given that early setback, it was no surprise to see Jones glowing over a Zoom call on Sunday after England followed the Paris humbling with four straight wins - over the course of almost nine months - to seal a third Six Nations title in five years.
"I prepared the team poorly for the French game," Jones reflected, taking the focus of defeat away from his players, a familiar tactic.
"But their approach to the rest of the tournament has been outstanding, they got on with the job and not looked for any sort of excuse - regardless of what has happened - and played good, tough, hard rugby, which is what you need to do to win the Six Nations."

The title, coming almost a year to the day after the World Cup final defeat by South Africa, further establishes England as one of the dominant forces in the world game.
France, though, were arguably the most impressive side in the tournament and can feel unlucky not to have pipped England to the championship, with Owen Farrell's late penalty in Paris, which grabbed a losing bonus point, ultimately proving decisive.
While no-one can blame England for ensuring they left the Stade de France with something for their efforts, it feels unpalatable that in a great tournament like the Six Nations - where victory is everything and defeat nothing - a side can be rewarded for losing.
Either way, rather than wait until England and France meet again next year, a rematch in the final of the Autumn Nations Cup at the start of December is a real possibility; a clash that could bring priceless profile to the fledgling tournament.

More new faces for Nations Cup?

On that note, it is typical of Jones' mindset that a matter of hours after finally finishing the Six Nations, he was already turning his attention to England's Nations Cup opener against Georgia.
After looking after business in Rome, admittedly in scratchy fashion, what can we expect from England in that fixture, and the Nations Cup as a whole? Selection will be fascinating as Jones juggles with the unprecedented depth he has at his disposal in certain positions.
Wasps' Jack Willis will get a taste of international rugby soon, even though he is in competition with some outstanding flankers, while Exeter's giant lock Jonny Hill has capitalised on Courtney Lawes' injury and George Kruis' unavailability to stake his claim to be a regular partner to the extraordinary Maro Itoje.
It's understood fly-half George Ford will be back fit either for Georgia or Ireland a week later, while it will be intriguing to find out if Jones sees Wasps uncapped pivot Jacob Umaga as a genuine alternative to the Ford and Owen Farrell duopoly at number 10.

England's Autumn Nations Cup fixtures
14 November: England v Georgia, 15:00 GMT at Twickenham
21 November: England v Ireland, 15:00 GMT at Twickenham
28 November: Wales v England, 16:00 GMT at Parc y Scarlets
6 December: Finals weekend - England v TBD, 14:00 GMT at Twickenham

Max Malins is a player who many fans would want to see get a game at full-back, given his brilliance with Bristol since the restart, while Worcester's Ollie Lawrence will be handed his chance to start after making his debut off the bench in Rome.
The playmaking combination of Farrell and centres Henry Slade and Jonathan Joseph struggled to fire at the Stadio Olimpico, with England opting to kick a lot of ball in the first half.
With all of England's best performances in the past two years coming with Manu Tuilagi in the midfield, questions linger over how reliant Jones' side are on the Sale man's dynamism and direction.
Tuilagi is out injured for the foreseeable future, so can the 21-year-old Lawrence, himself a power athlete, fill that void? He surely will get some more exposure over the course of November.
"The game is very much about power at the moment," Jones said last month.
"Particularly for outside backs, you need at least one of those powerful players. Previously we have had Manu, so Ollie has an opportunity there to show his worth."

What it means to win your first cap

Lawrence and fellow debutant Ollie Thorley were both given a decent-length run-out off the bench against Italy, but slipping under the radar was a first cap for Bath hooker Tom Dunn, who came on for the excellent Jamie George a couple of minutes from the end of the game.
At the age of 27, Dunn has had to bide his time. Earlier this year, he had been involved in as many as seven England camps without being capped, and was even placed on standby for a matchday squad in January, before being denied a debut when Luke Cowan-Dickie became available again.
So to see a video on England Rugby's in-house channels of Dunn Facetiming home from the stadium after finally winning that elusive cap, fighting back the tears, would have warmed the heart of all England supporters. Good things come to those who wait.'

Despite the stupid comments about unpalatably playing to the rules from the author this does set out some of the choices to be made by Jones. Personally I think the interesting ones come at fly half and full back. I'd like to see Malins at 10 and Watson dropping back with the introduction of Thorley. Slade to get another run at 12 with Lawrence.

I think we'll see Umaga 10 Malins at 15.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 10 Nov 2020, 8:33 pm

king_carlos wrote:Kaino, McCaw and Read were one of the most 'traditional' back rows in recent times but were famous for playing in attack with Kaino and Read hanging out wide on either wing then McCaw, Thorn, Woodcock, Franks, Whitelock, etc doing the yards in the middle. Good luck stopping either Kaino or Read off loading if they get room basically.

Nineties back rows such as Skinstad and Dallaglio (prior to injury and slowing down) that broke through in Sevens were similar to what Jones is describing as well I'd say.

I don't think Jones is serious about the hybrid thing beyond perhaps cover for a group game in the World Cup. Similar to Brits playing back row for South Africa against Namibia. Maybe he'd use Earl on the wing or Nowell at flanker in an emergency to cover without replacing a player he hopes will be fit for the knockouts.

I don't know I think it's an idea he has for trying to neutralise the big Bok pack.

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 11 Nov 2020, 9:05 am

When is the side announced?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 11 Nov 2020, 9:11 am

Thursday normally.

by Cumbrian Wed 11 Nov 2020, 10:18 am

Poorfour wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:I don't know, I think I would rather they played Georgia without the gimmicks. What is being said here? England can't deal with the power of the Georgian forwards? I would be very disappointed if that was the case.

The game evolves and coaches need to innovate or get left behind.

FirstXV (the paid for bit of RugbyPass) has a good article on how the All Blacks have tried to change their game over the last 18 months by playing Beauden Barrett at fullback and shifting to more mobile, ball playing props - both of which they believe were inspired by NH teams, specifically Daly at fullback and props like Mako, Sinckler and Furlong. But equally, they note that those experiments haven't always succeeded - Barrett and Mo'unga has sometimes worked and sometimes fallen flat. The AB props have sacrificed power and strength for mobility and handling and are suffering against all weather props like the ones above.

Eddie, arguably more than anyone else, is always looking for the next thing. Some of them work, some of them don't, but he's not afraid to try them. How many losses and near misses did we get while Daly was developing as a fullback? Was that a worthwhile trade for the RWC Final run?

I'd rather he tried his ideas against the likes of Georgia where they can be assessed ahead of trying them with tougher opposition.

I agree that England should look to continually evolve, but my argument is that this really isn't much of an evolution. England kick so much ball away at the moment, putting a forward in the backs is hardly going to help the situation. I think they need to develop a genuine plan 'B', because at times there doesn't seem to be the ability to play what is in front of them, especially when plan A is not working. Instead it seems to me like Eddie is doubling down on the original kick, chase and power game plan which I guarantee will eventually get figured out and nullified.

I also agree that players like Mako, Sinkler and Furlong are changing their positions, but to me this is being done organically, they are doing their basics well and supplementing them by using improve fitness and handling skills. In my opinion, this is different from simply sticking a big guy in the backs for a one off hit up against a team we should beat comfortably anyway. What do we learn from that? That somebody like Ben Earl is quick, powerful and could probably cover an outside back in a pinch? I think most people suspected that was the case anyway.

by Geordie Wed 11 Nov 2020, 11:13 am

Eventually it'll just be flankers and centres...and it'll be like League...

by No 7&1/2 Wed 11 Nov 2020, 11:30 am

I'd have no quarrels if it became like league in terms of body shape. I doubt it will though as it tends to be squatter chunky types who excel in the scrums at the front and seriously heavy guys behind, and that can lead to complete field dominance and wins.

by Poorfour Wed 11 Nov 2020, 11:40 am

Gooseberry wrote:Yeah but also Bergamasco at 9

True. Not all experiments are destined to work. The question is when you try them. Experiments with personnel are best in games that matter less. Experiments with tactics you often save for games that matter.

by Geordie Wed 11 Nov 2020, 11:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd have no quarrels if it became like league in terms of body shape. I doubt it will though as it tends to be squatter chunky types who excel in the scrums at the front and seriously heavy guys behind, and that can lead to complete field dominance and wins.

Carl Hayman was 6'4
Andrew Sheridan 6'5
Oz du Rant 6'3

by No 7&1/2 Wed 11 Nov 2020, 11:51 am

He could scrummage though from what I've seen Geordie. I think when we consider it as well Vunipola comes to mind. Ability with the ball comes with a price at the very top level in scrums, ditto Lawes as lock. Some coaches do go with that risk and Jones has said that theres only 6 scrums a game or something along those lines. The WC final may have made the point to him again that you need the basics. He keeps saying that the English game is grounded in the set piece and for that to be true I think it means Vunipola should be moved on and Genge, Marler and Obano looked at going forward. Proudfoot is getting his feet under the table I'd love to know what he thinks on those points.

by Poorfour Wed 11 Nov 2020, 11:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd have no quarrels if it became like league in terms of body shape. I doubt it will though as it tends to be squatter chunky types who excel in the scrums at the front and seriously heavy guys behind, and that can lead to complete field dominance and wins.

I don't think we'll see the uniformity of size that has emerged in league - a prop needs to be a certain body shape to be effective and as you say, bulk counts. But I think we will see the emergence of more props and locks who are both strong and mobile. The removal of the hit has tilted the balance back in favour of strength and technique, so sheer bulk is no longer a way to cover for poor technique. The emphasis on late specialisation in academies also means we will see more players who stat from an athletic build and add muscle rather than fat kids who get fit.

But that said, it's notable that once props in particular start coming up against international-level opposition, they typically have a choice of whether to sacrifice speed for solidity in the scrum. Marler and Mako are the classic examples - they broke through at about the same time, and as teenagers were both phenomenal carriers. But after his first tour (to South Africa), Marler chose to get stronger in the scrum and lost a bit of pace; he makes fewer breaks but is one of the best scrummaging looseheads. Mako kept his carrying and has improved his scrummaging over time, but he is still occasionally found out in the scrum by the very best packs. Likewise, I don't think a scrum goes well without a really solid right hand lock backing up the TH.

by Geordie Wed 11 Nov 2020, 11:55 am

I like the look of Obano...a really mobile guy yet powerful scrummager. If he fit enough for this level.

Genge is the heir elect for the LH spot...but i think Obano will put in a good challenge.

by Geordie Wed 11 Nov 2020, 11:57 am

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd have no quarrels if it became like league in terms of body shape. I doubt it will though as it tends to be squatter chunky types who excel in the scrums at the front and seriously heavy guys behind, and that can lead to complete field dominance and wins.

I don't think we'll see the uniformity of size that has emerged in league - a prop needs to be a certain body shape to be effective and as you say, bulk counts. But I think we will see the emergence of more props and locks who are both strong and mobile. The removal of the hit has tilted the balance back in favour of strength and technique, so sheer bulk is no longer a way to cover for poor technique. The emphasis on late specialisation in academies also means we will see more players who stat from an athletic build and add muscle rather than fat kids who get fit.

But that said, it's notable that once props in particular start coming up against international-level opposition, they typically have a choice of whether to sacrifice speed for solidity in the scrum. Marler and Mako are the classic examples - they broke through at about the same time, and as teenagers were both phenomenal carriers. But after his first tour (to South Africa), Marler chose to get stronger in the scrum and lost a bit of pace; he makes fewer breaks but is one of the best scrummaging looseheads. Mako kept his carrying and has improved his scrummaging over time, but he is still occasionally found out in the scrum by the very best packs. Likewise, I don't think a scrum goes well without a really solid right hand lock backing up the TH.

People always forget how important a good lock is to the scrums...ive said it on here before, but i remember the story of Simon Shaw. One of Wasps props had mentioned having him in the scrum was like having 2 extra men.

by king_carlos Wed 11 Nov 2020, 2:25 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd have no quarrels if it became like league in terms of body shape. I doubt it will though as it tends to be squatter chunky types who excel in the scrums at the front and seriously heavy guys behind, and that can lead to complete field dominance and wins.

Carl Hayman was 6'4
Andrew Sheridan 6'5
Oz du Rant 6'3

I loved watching Sheri play but often feel it's forgotten now that he got pinged a fair bit at scrum time. When he physically dominated a tighthead he could destroy packs (2007 RWC run to the final) but his technique wasn't the greatest so he was hit and miss. I'm not for a second saying he was a bad prop, he was an excellent international prop. I just wouldn't put him the in same echelons that he sometimes is since retirement.

Hayman and Oz were simply incredible. Whenever I'm naming a 'greatest ever XV' Oz is a shoe in at loosehead with Hayman at his peak nipping the tighthead spot.

GeordieFalcon wrote:People always forget how important a good lock is to the scrums...ive said it on here before, but i remember the story of Simon Shaw. One of Wasps props had mentioned having him in the scrum was like having 2 extra men.

Locks scrummaging is too often overlooked. Marler coming on made an obvious difference on the loosehead side in the RWC final but Kruis coming on to scrummage behind Cole was also a big influence in the scrums being more even after halftime.

If/when Kruis comes back to the Premiership I think he will walk back into the side. I rate Hill and think he's earned his chance, but I think Kruis is a brilliant set-piece lock. He'll be 33 by the next RWC, so if he doesn't get any serious injuries he will still be in a reasonable age range for tight five forward.

by Guest Wed 11 Nov 2020, 2:36 pm

I wonder what the odds are on a Georgia win?

by king_carlos Wed 11 Nov 2020, 2:37 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I like the look of Obano...a really mobile guy yet powerful scrummager. If he fit enough for this level.

Genge is the heir elect for the LH spot...but i think Obano will put in a good challenge.

Obano is a really good player who's unlucky to be in a position of strength. Back in the post Woodman/Leonard/Rowntree, Sheri injured days of Tim Payne starting amidst calls for Jon Golding or out of position Matt Stevens to get a shot Obano would have been a star!

His ability to make dominant hits in fringe defence is probably what sets him apart compared to Marler, Mako and Genge. Marler and Mako are excellent in fringe defence but more through their line speed and work rate than actually dominating collisions.

As you say doing what Obano does for Bath consistently at international level requires a ridiculous fitness level. I hope he gets a cap over the next few weeks, his form deserves it.

The loosehead options are all the more remarkable when you consider that Corbisiero could have been well on his way to being an England great right now if not for injury.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 11 Nov 2020, 2:55 pm

Corbisiero could have been special. Made such a difference to England and the Lions when he was available and terrible shame to hear the latest on his cancer returning.

Some great front row forwards coming through. Just need one of the young tightheads to really put their hand up and challenge during next season, Sinckler is not under any pressure at the moment. Mentioned him previously but Barbeary could fit into the discussion Geordie mentions with dynamic players who would play elsewhere 15 years ago. He is special, the hype is justified. The only question remains is what are his set pieces like at the prem level. if they're good he will be in the team very quickly comparatively to George and LCD. Or he may get shunted to 6.

by Poorfour Wed 11 Nov 2020, 4:16 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd have no quarrels if it became like league in terms of body shape. I doubt it will though as it tends to be squatter chunky types who excel in the scrums at the front and seriously heavy guys behind, and that can lead to complete field dominance and wins.

Carl Hayman was 6'4
Andrew Sheridan 6'5
Oz du Rant 6'3

All of them started in the era of the hit, though. Sheridan and du Randt were never exceptional in technique terms, but could overpower most opposition through sheer bulk and power. du Randt was undermined by Tom Smith, though - a smaller player who could match him for upper body strength and got underneath him.

Since the hit was depowered, the props who have emerged have tended to be shorter and more technical, particularly on the tighthead side.

by king_carlos Wed 11 Nov 2020, 9:34 pm

Heinz is out for "a little while" according to Skivington with him having returned to Gloucester. Tough for Heinz and Gloucs but could mean that Mitchell gets a go.

Predictions on the team anyone?

by Cumbrian Wed 11 Nov 2020, 10:27 pm

I'll give it a go.

01. Mako Vunipola
02. Jamie George
03. Kyle Sinkler
04. Jonny Hill
05. Maro Itoje
06. Sam Underhill
07. Ollie Thorley
08. Tom Curry

09. Ben Youngs
10. Owen Farrell

11. Charlie Ewels
12. Harry Williams
13. Ellis Genge
14. Lewis Ludlum
15. Ben Earl

Quite realistic, I think. Very Happy

by Mr Bounce Wed 11 Nov 2020, 10:59 pm

No Cumbrian - Williams does not have the pass for a 12. Stick Earl at 12, Lawrence at 6 and Underhill at FB. At least nobody would criticise Underhill for not tackling anyone. I would love to see Genge at 13 for half a game though Laugh

by Gooseberry Thu 12 Nov 2020, 8:20 am

#

Mr Bounce wrote:No Cumbrian - Williams does not have the pass for a 12.

Something something Tuillagi

Jokes aside Heinz being out does put another opportunity out there for a half back to get capped. Theres the potential for England to have a new 9 and 10 on the pitch at some point. Theres also the potential that Jones will just not bother and take the risk on injuries putting non specialists in those spots. To do it with both the 9 and 10 though would certainly be a thing.

Side not that Ben Youngs has said "no coach has come near Eddie Jones" (no nothing to do with their bedroom antics, although Id suspect thats also true) in rugby intelligence. Presumably based on his expert opinions on scrum half selection.

Does feel like the selections for this are more interesting than the actual game will be. The Italy one was dire, cant see what more Georgia bring to the table and theres a certain assumption they'll try and thug England down to their level rather than attempt to play them off the park. If we do end up with an England with either new cap or non specialist half backs late on that doesn't bode well for them being cohesive and clinical. Wanting to pack the side with forwards also suggests England expect a bit of an arm wrestle (inspite of jones' comments about AI's usually being a bit more loose and open, this is trophy rugby). Also continuing with the kick pressure game which whilst effective can lead to long periods where they don't get to play any offense.

by Geordie Thu 12 Nov 2020, 8:24 am

king_carlos wrote:Heinz is out for "a little while" according to Skivington with him having returned to Gloucester. Tough for Heinz and Gloucs but could mean that Mitchell gets a go.

Predictions on the team anyone?

These are the things that give others the opportunity. Heinz is unlucky but his bad luck will open the door for a youngster. Heinze may not get back in again.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 Nov 2020, 8:30 am

Gooseberry wrote:#
Mr Bounce wrote:No Cumbrian - Williams does not have the pass for a 12.

Something something Tuillagi

Jokes aside Heinz being out does put another opportunity out there for a half back to get capped. Theres the potential for England to have a new 9 and 10 on the pitch at some point. Theres also the potential that Jones will just not bother and take the risk on injuries putting non specialists in those spots. To do it with both the 9 and 10 though would certainly be a thing.

Side not that Ben Youngs has said "no coach has come near Eddie Jones" (no nothing to do with their bedroom antics, although Id suspect thats also true) in rugby intelligence. Presumably based on his expert opinions on scrum half selection.

Does feel like the selections for this are more interesting than the actual game will be. The Italy one was dire, cant see what more Georgia bring to the table and theres a certain assumption they'll try and thug England down to their level rather than attempt to play them off the park. If we do end up with an England with either new cap or non specialist half backs late on that doesn't bode well for them being cohesive and clinical. Wanting to pack the side with forwards also suggests England expect a bit of an arm wrestle (inspite of jones' comments about AI's usually being a bit more loose and open, this is trophy rugby). Also continuing with the kick pressure game which whilst effective can lead to long periods where they don't get to play any offense.

Throwing him a bag of sweets and asking him if he wants to improve. Youngs turned it down before taking 6 mins of deliberation before throwing the bag onto the floor just out of the reach of Mako.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 Nov 2020, 8:33 am

Georgia obviously have a reputation of a strong set of forwards but it is a bit overegged. England should be well on top and be able to dictate easily. Another weeks training you would hope that england play alot more ball in hand from a good set piece.
Fingers crossed we see a few players get the chance from the off but with a strong core.

by Gooseberry Thu 12 Nov 2020, 8:35 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:#
Mr Bounce wrote:No Cumbrian - Williams does not have the pass for a 12.

Something something Tuillagi

Jokes aside Heinz being out does put another opportunity out there for a half back to get capped. Theres the potential for England to have a new 9 and 10 on the pitch at some point. Theres also the potential that Jones will just not bother and take the risk on injuries putting non specialists in those spots. To do it with both the 9 and 10 though would certainly be a thing.

Side not that Ben Youngs has said "no coach has come near Eddie Jones" (no nothing to do with their bedroom antics, although Id suspect thats also true) in rugby intelligence. Presumably based on his expert opinions on scrum half selection.

Does feel like the selections for this are more interesting than the actual game will be. The Italy one was dire, cant see what more Georgia bring to the table and theres a certain assumption they'll try and thug England down to their level rather than attempt to play them off the park. If we do end up with an England with either new cap or non specialist half backs late on that doesn't bode well for them being cohesive and clinical. Wanting to pack the side with forwards also suggests England expect a bit of an arm wrestle (inspite of jones' comments about AI's usually being a bit more loose and open, this is trophy rugby). Also continuing with the kick pressure game which whilst effective can lead to long periods where they don't get to play any offense.

Throwing him a bag of sweets and asking him if he wants to improve. Youngs turned it down before taking 6 mins of deliberation before throwing the bag onto the floor just out of the reach of Mako.

See thats the difference between Jones and Brendan Venters coaching in action

by king_carlos Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:02 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Georgia obviously have a reputation of a strong set of forwards but it is a bit overegged. England should be well on top and be able to dictate easily. Another weeks training you would hope that england play alot more ball in hand from a good set piece.
Fingers crossed we see a few players get the chance from the off but with a strong core.

Their pack against Scotland missing a lot of first choice forwards was well below their best to be fair. Tighthead and second row in particular were down to about 3rd/4th string depending on how you rate certain players. Lekso Kaulashvili starting at TH against Scotland with Melikidze on the bench for instance is their equivalent of Obano starting with Genge on the bench were Marler and Mako both out.

1.Nariashvili 2.Mamukashvili 3.Gigashvili 4.Mikautadze 5.Tcheishvili 6.Giorgadze 7.Saghinzadze 8.Gorgadze

16.Bregvadze 17.Gogichasvili 18.Melikidze 19.Kerdikoshvili 20.Tkhilaishvili

I'm hoping we see something more like that against England. Gigashvili and Mikautadze would make a big difference for them.

It's still below full strength sadly. At TH for instance Melikidze is their bench option due to Chilachava being unavailable. In the second row Lasha Lomidze and Shalva Sutiashvili are unavailable at an inopportune time given Giorgi Nemsadze (a stalwart and very good lock) and Mamuka Gordgodze retired.

I'd say it's a side in transition, particularly at lock, with a few senior players aging out. Still a lot of talent though. Nariashvili and Gorgadze in particular are two of the best in the world in their positions.

by king_carlos Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:09 am

ENGLAND
15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 43 caps)
14. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 51 caps)
13. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 30 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 57 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (c) (Saracens, 83 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 100 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 19 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 50 caps)
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
4. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
5. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 65 caps)
6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 39 caps)
7. Jack Willis (Wasps, uncapped)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 52 caps)
FINISHERS
16. Tom Dunn, (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 60 caps)
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 36 caps)
19. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 4 caps)
20. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 24 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 3 caps)
22. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
23. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 3 caps)

Itoje at flanker to get him and Launchbury in the same side.

Ewels ahead of Jonny Hill.

Youngs starting.

Joseph on the wing head of Thorley.

If Willis wasn't starting at 7 I think that side would cause a meltdown for a few pundits...

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:11 am

by lostinwales Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:11 am

No Thorley at all, but Malins and Marchant on the bench

I don't get not playing Hill unless its a punishment for the YC/ they think Georgia could get to him.

by Mr Bounce Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:17 am

I don't understand Eddie selecting a lock at 6 with the wealth of back rows we have, as well as playing centres as wings. I expect JJ to come in off his wing and look for work a lot. Would have thought Cokanasiga would have been a perfect winger for this game if only to do a bit for his confidence. Still, there's plenty of youngsters and non-first choices in the starting line-up and on the bench.

Pleased for Malins - I think he'll continue to grow as a force at 10/15.

by king_carlos Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:30 am

Mr Bounce wrote:I don't understand Eddie selecting a lock at 6 with the wealth of back rows we have, as well as playing centres as wings. I expect JJ to come in off his wing and look for work a lot. Would have thought Cokanasiga would have been a perfect winger for this game if only to do a bit for his confidence. Still, there's plenty of youngsters and non-first choices in the starting line-up and on the bench.

Pleased for Malins - I think he'll continue to grow as a force at 10/15.

With neither Itoje and Launchbury being lineout callers playing Itoje at 6 is his only route to having both in the starting XV. I imagine it's driven more by the desire to see what both starting add to the side in the loose. Particularly in attack where Itoje's excellent clearout work generating quick ball could allow Launchbury's carrying and support lines around the fringes to shine.

Willis starting with neither Curry or Underhill in the side is a big opportunity to shine in defence, particularly at the breakdown.

JJ on the wing ahead of Thorley, Cokanasiga or Marchant is very meh in my opinion.

by king_carlos Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:35 am

Worth noting that if Ewels doesn't play the full 80 we will presumably see Itoje calling the lineout. The 10 minutes Hill was in the bin against Italy (only one England lineout in that time I believe) was the first time I know of Itoje leading the lineout since the 2014/15 Anglo-Welsh Cup when he skippered Sarries to victory. He called the lineout at age grade when skippering England and when he first broke through to senior rugby with Sarries but the strength of teammates in that area means he hasn't since. If Itoje can add that to his impressive repertoire then Itoje/Launchbury is a potential lock pairing that offers a lot around the park.

by lostinwales Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:38 am

Could JJ be on the wing to help out Lawrence? Experienced 13 looking over his shoulder?

I do get the whole thing about trying to get the right blend of experience and new guys but it does look like an opportunity lost to get JC or Thorley on the wing.

Only other thought is the very obvious one that it is very much the starting 15 and nothing like the finishing one.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:40 am

I cannot understand either Ewels selection or Joseph on the wing. Against a power house, formidable pack he plays the lightest least powerful lock we have had in years. I just don't get what he brings to the side that others don't bring more of.

JJ on the wing????? He has played there before, but he has lost that bit of pace now and none of the centres have the pace to really play 14, so there will not be much interchanging. I don't understand it at all. If you want to play Slade at 12, then you play either Lawrence or JJ at 13 or bench JJ and play Daly at 14 and Furbank or Malins at 15. Marchant would make a better wing selection than JJ.

There are 4 centres and 1 winger in that 23 plus a quasi 15,13 or 11 depending on where you believe Daly fits in best. Just not balanced.

It will probably be okay against Georgia, but what will we learn that we can use against Ireland.

by Gooseberry Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:44 am

Lets face it if Eddie Jones could pick a side made up entirely of centres, locks and Ben Youngs he would.

by lostinwales Thu 12 Nov 2020, 11:49 am

Gooseberry wrote:Lets face it if Eddie Jones could pick a side made up entirely of centres, locks and Ben Youngs he would.

Lancaster picked a couple of teams that was almost entirely made up of 6's (or guys who could play there)

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 Nov 2020, 12:05 pm

Just a bit random isnt it. It's a good opportunity to get some of the new guys in and integrate them however we know a lock at 6 doesnt really work for us. We have Willis and Hill, play then both especially Hill if you're looking for size. We know Joseph can cover wing if needed but hes never going to start there and be as effective as a winger. We know youngs will mainly waste quick ball let's get the others involved now!

by Soul Requiem Thu 12 Nov 2020, 12:16 pm

This looks like a team selected with one eye on South Africa, effectively using Itoje as a counter to PSDT.

by mikey_dragon Thu 12 Nov 2020, 12:29 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:This looks like a team selected with one eye on South Africa, effectively using Itoje as a counter to PSDT.

When are you next facing SA?

by Gooseberry Thu 12 Nov 2020, 12:34 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:This looks like a team selected with one eye on South Africa, effectively using Itoje as a counter to PSDT.

When are you next facing SA?

Not sure how relevant that is, they spent years building to beat new Zealand without a fixture scheduled in

PTSD from last time they faced them?

by mikey_dragon Thu 12 Nov 2020, 12:42 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:This looks like a team selected with one eye on South Africa, effectively using Itoje as a counter to PSDT.

When are you next facing SA?

Not sure how relevant that is, they spent years building to beat new Zealand without a fixture scheduled in

PTSD from last time they faced them?

What?

by Geordie Thu 12 Nov 2020, 1:08 pm

Would Ted HIll not have been the person to try for this game if he wants a monster at 6?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 12 Nov 2020, 1:12 pm

I feel a little sorry for Willis. Expectations will be high, but the back row selected will provide less support to him than he is used. Even if he thrives, which I hope he does, there will still be the caveat thrown about of this being "only" Georgia.

Not happy with JJ starting on the wing.

by Geordie Thu 12 Nov 2020, 1:19 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Not happy with JJ starting on the wing.

This is justf typical Aussie mentality.

Giteau, Adam Ashley Cooper, O'Conner etc etc etc.... have played almost every position in the back line. He's just doing something similar.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 Nov 2020, 1:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I feel a little sorry for Willis. Expectations will be high, but the back row selected will provide less support to him than he is used. Even if he thrives, which I hope he does, there will still be the caveat thrown about of this being "only" Georgia.

Not happy with JJ starting on the wing.

It's a double edged sword. Expect him to actually shine a bit carrying the ball and hitting rucks. It'll demonstrate he has more to his game than turn overs.

by lostinwales Thu 12 Nov 2020, 1:27 pm

It is a very heavyweight starting back row.

by Mr Bounce Thu 12 Nov 2020, 1:32 pm

I have a feeling that Willis will shine in this game. As for 9, we know that Youngs is one of the first names on the team sheet along with Itoje, Farrell and Billy. It's a shame that Robson isn't starting, but I guess Eddie has to field a semblance of continuity in his selection.

I wonder which of the back row will move to 8 if needed? Curry, Willis or Earl? There is a lot of speed in the replacement flankers - could be a few tries coming if everything clicks in the final 20 minutes. Think it's a mistake not to have Obano on the bench over Vunipola. Maybe Eddie thinks that Mako needs game time like his brother? I'd like to see Malins get a decent amount of game time. If the match is done and dusted in the first 40, perhaps Malins to 15 for the second half?

by No 7&1/2 Thu 12 Nov 2020, 1:45 pm

Or 10? Slade could be the full back cover?

by king_carlos Thu 12 Nov 2020, 1:51 pm

Given that Itoje is viewed as one of our best scrummaging locks I wonder if we might see a repeat of Itoje wearing 6 but packing down at lock with Launchbury on the blindside. Similar to Lawes wearing 5 but scrummaging at blindside when Jones first started the 3 locks selection policy.

by Mr Bounce Thu 12 Nov 2020, 2:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Or 10? Slade could be the full back cover?

I think given that Daly's only just back from injury he may be rested early. But if Farrell goes off, there's no doubt Max will go to 10, even if Farrell picks up a knock when he's on at 15. We've got enough centres on the pitch and bench to fill in for Slade if he goes to 15.

I reckon the reason there's a reason that JJ is at wing - Watson's injured, and it could be that both Thorley and Big Joe are carrying minor knocks that haven't been reported.

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