England vs Georgia

by No 7&1/2 Tue 3 Nov - 8:27

First topic message reminder :

I'll be lazy and just half inch the BBC article!

'Back in January, Eddie Jones warned his players of the curse of the beaten World Cup finalists.
The England boss was wary his side could be vulnerable in 2020 after the emotional and mental toll the tournament in Japan had taken.
Jones' concerns looked justified after England were swept aside by a hungry France a matter of days later, a result which scuppered their chances of a Grand Slam.
Given that early setback, it was no surprise to see Jones glowing over a Zoom call on Sunday after England followed the Paris humbling with four straight wins - over the course of almost nine months - to seal a third Six Nations title in five years.
"I prepared the team poorly for the French game," Jones reflected, taking the focus of defeat away from his players, a familiar tactic.
"But their approach to the rest of the tournament has been outstanding, they got on with the job and not looked for any sort of excuse - regardless of what has happened - and played good, tough, hard rugby, which is what you need to do to win the Six Nations."

The title, coming almost a year to the day after the World Cup final defeat by South Africa, further establishes England as one of the dominant forces in the world game.
France, though, were arguably the most impressive side in the tournament and can feel unlucky not to have pipped England to the championship, with Owen Farrell's late penalty in Paris, which grabbed a losing bonus point, ultimately proving decisive.
While no-one can blame England for ensuring they left the Stade de France with something for their efforts, it feels unpalatable that in a great tournament like the Six Nations - where victory is everything and defeat nothing - a side can be rewarded for losing.
Either way, rather than wait until England and France meet again next year, a rematch in the final of the Autumn Nations Cup at the start of December is a real possibility; a clash that could bring priceless profile to the fledgling tournament.

More new faces for Nations Cup?

On that note, it is typical of Jones' mindset that a matter of hours after finally finishing the Six Nations, he was already turning his attention to England's Nations Cup opener against Georgia.
After looking after business in Rome, admittedly in scratchy fashion, what can we expect from England in that fixture, and the Nations Cup as a whole? Selection will be fascinating as Jones juggles with the unprecedented depth he has at his disposal in certain positions.
Wasps' Jack Willis will get a taste of international rugby soon, even though he is in competition with some outstanding flankers, while Exeter's giant lock Jonny Hill has capitalised on Courtney Lawes' injury and George Kruis' unavailability to stake his claim to be a regular partner to the extraordinary Maro Itoje.
It's understood fly-half George Ford will be back fit either for Georgia or Ireland a week later, while it will be intriguing to find out if Jones sees Wasps uncapped pivot Jacob Umaga as a genuine alternative to the Ford and Owen Farrell duopoly at number 10.

England's Autumn Nations Cup fixtures
14 November: England v Georgia, 15:00 GMT at Twickenham
21 November: England v Ireland, 15:00 GMT at Twickenham
28 November: Wales v England, 16:00 GMT at Parc y Scarlets
6 December: Finals weekend - England v TBD, 14:00 GMT at Twickenham

Max Malins is a player who many fans would want to see get a game at full-back, given his brilliance with Bristol since the restart, while Worcester's Ollie Lawrence will be handed his chance to start after making his debut off the bench in Rome.
The playmaking combination of Farrell and centres Henry Slade and Jonathan Joseph struggled to fire at the Stadio Olimpico, with England opting to kick a lot of ball in the first half.
With all of England's best performances in the past two years coming with Manu Tuilagi in the midfield, questions linger over how reliant Jones' side are on the Sale man's dynamism and direction.
Tuilagi is out injured for the foreseeable future, so can the 21-year-old Lawrence, himself a power athlete, fill that void? He surely will get some more exposure over the course of November.
"The game is very much about power at the moment," Jones said last month.
"Particularly for outside backs, you need at least one of those powerful players. Previously we have had Manu, so Ollie has an opportunity there to show his worth."

What it means to win your first cap

Lawrence and fellow debutant Ollie Thorley were both given a decent-length run-out off the bench against Italy, but slipping under the radar was a first cap for Bath hooker Tom Dunn, who came on for the excellent Jamie George a couple of minutes from the end of the game.
At the age of 27, Dunn has had to bide his time. Earlier this year, he had been involved in as many as seven England camps without being capped, and was even placed on standby for a matchday squad in January, before being denied a debut when Luke Cowan-Dickie became available again.
So to see a video on England Rugby's in-house channels of Dunn Facetiming home from the stadium after finally winning that elusive cap, fighting back the tears, would have warmed the heart of all England supporters. Good things come to those who wait.'

Despite the stupid comments about unpalatably playing to the rules from the author this does set out some of the choices to be made by Jones. Personally I think the interesting ones come at fly half and full back. I'd like to see Malins at 10 and Watson dropping back with the introduction of Thorley. Slade to get another run at 12 with Lawrence.

I think we'll see Umaga 10 Malins at 15.

by Geordie Thu 12 Nov - 14:55

COuld we not just have gone with

4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Hill
7 Willis
8 Billy V

by **LondonTiger** Thu 12 Nov - 15:13

king_carlos wrote:Given that Itoje is viewed as one of our best scrummaging locks I wonder if we might see a repeat of Itoje wearing 6 but packing down at lock with Launchbury on the blindside. Similar to Lawes wearing 5 but scrummaging at blindside when Jones first started the 3 locks selection policy.

Launchbury is solid in the scrum, while Itoje and Lawes are both quicker than him.

While trying to check if Launchbury was one of those guys who played 6 at U20s found this team for the 2011 6Ns:

England starting XV to face Ireland:

15) Ben Ransom
14) Andy Short
13) Elliot Daly
12) Ryan Mills
11) Jonathan Joseph
10) George Ford
9) Chris Cook
1) Mako Vunipola
2) Mike Haywood
3) Henry Thomas
4) Joe Launchbury
5) Charlie Matthews
6) Matt Kvesic
7) Matt Everard
8) Alex Gray

Replacements:

16) Rob Buchanan
17) Will Collier
18) Addison Lockley
19) Sam Jones
20) Dan Robson
21) Owen Farrell
22) Jamie Elliott

by **LondonTiger** Thu 12 Nov - 15:16

GeordieFalcon wrote:COuld we not just have gone with

4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Hill
7 Willis
8 Billy V

We could, but Eddie and Mitchell now rate Ewels above Launchbury I think, with him being in the leadership group (and a lineout caller). I suspect the Bath man will never be loved by the fans and reminds me of the situation with Borthick 15 or so years ago where coaches valued him much more than fans.

by lostinwales Thu 12 Nov - 15:39

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:COuld we not just have gone with

4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Hill
7 Willis
8 Billy V

We could, but Eddie and Mitchell now rate Ewels above Launchbury I think, with him being in the leadership group (and a lineout caller). I suspect the Bath man will never be loved by the fans and reminds me of the situation with Borthick 15 or so years ago where coaches valued him much more than fans.

The fans were right about Borthwick though. For all his brilliance at club level nobody missed him when he was moved on from England.

by Geordie Thu 12 Nov - 15:42

Interesting team in the U20.

Notice Joseph on the wing there aswell...

How many of that side have retired due to injury or moved on from rugby.

LT
I agree Ewells is clearly fancied by the coaches for his Captaincy ability. Im still not seeing what he brings on the pitch individually mind.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 12 Nov - 15:47

It is hard to tell with Borthwick whether in a better team we would have noticed him more. The Robinson/Ashton/Johnson teams were in general pretty rubbish. Personally I feel he was too lightweight for international rugby, but I accept that the coaches know more than I do.

I am unwilling to make much comment on Ewels as to be honest he is not a guy who I ever really notice - but be assured in the stat driven world professional rugby now occupies his work rate will be much higher than we think. Launchbury has been a fantastic player, but does have some weaknesses that have never really been addressed. In the first part of his England career he was behind Parling, Kruis & Lawes (all Lions) and in the second part Itoje replaced Parling in that list.

by king_carlos Thu 12 Nov - 15:52

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Given that Itoje is viewed as one of our best scrummaging locks I wonder if we might see a repeat of Itoje wearing 6 but packing down at lock with Launchbury on the blindside. Similar to Lawes wearing 5 but scrummaging at blindside when Jones first started the 3 locks selection policy.

Launchbury is solid in the scrum, while Itoje and Lawes are both quicker than him.

While trying to check if Launchbury was one of those guys who played 6 at U20s found this team for the 2011 6Ns:

England starting XV to face Ireland:

15) Ben Ransom
14) Andy Short
13) Elliot Daly
12) Ryan Mills
11) Jonathan Joseph
10) George Ford
9) Chris Cook
1) Mako Vunipola
2) Mike Haywood
3) Henry Thomas
4) Joe Launchbury
5) Charlie Matthews
6) Matt Kvesic
7) Matt Everard
8) Alex Gray

Replacements:

16) Rob Buchanan
17) Will Collier
18) Addison Lockley
19) Sam Jones
20) Dan Robson
21) Owen Farrell
22) Jamie Elliott

Ah, Sam Jones. He was developing brilliantly for Wasps when injury struck.

A Wasps fan I'm good friends with (begrudgingly...) posed the interesting question a year or so back of whether Brad Shields would have ended up with Wasps and then England had Jones not suffered that horrible leg injury.

I really rated Henry Thomas as a TH but every time I read his name I just think of Stuart Barnes talking about his carrying/handling as if he's Oz du Randt, start feel like I need a lie down and some paracetamol. I think BT improved Premiership coverage significantly through the simple virtue of not employing Barnes.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 12 Nov - 16:08

Barnes never forgave England for preferring Rob Squeaky Andrew. It shows throughout his commentary when England were playing. You would think his name was Stuart Jones from the love he gave Wales.

by Guest Thu 12 Nov - 17:39

lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:COuld we not just have gone with

4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Hill
7 Willis
8 Billy V

We could, but Eddie and Mitchell now rate Ewels above Launchbury I think, with him being in the leadership group (and a lineout caller). I suspect the Bath man will never be loved by the fans and reminds me of the situation with Borthick 15 or so years ago where coaches valued him much more than fans.

The fans were right about Borthwick though. For all his brilliance at club level nobody missed him when he was moved on from England.

Yeah, 2011 was a great World Cup, wasn't it...

by formerly known as Sam Thu 12 Nov - 17:45

LondonTiger wrote:It is hard to tell with Borthwick whether in a better team we would have noticed him more. The Robinson/Ashton/Johnson teams were in general pretty rubbish. Personally I feel he was too lightweight for international rugby, but I accept that the coaches know more than I do.

I am unwilling to make much comment on Ewels as to be honest he is not a guy who I ever really notice - but be assured in the stat driven world professional rugby now occupies his work rate will be much higher than we think. Launchbury has been a fantastic player, but does have some weaknesses that have never really been addressed. In the first part of his England career he was behind Parling, Kruis & Lawes (all Lions) and in the second part Itoje replaced Parling in that list.

I remember Launchbury being quite a feature under Burt. He combined with Parling who pretty much covered for Launchbury's weaknesses. They were the combination that took apart the ABs in 2012 with the tight five of Corbisiero, Youngs, Cole, Launchbury, Parling demolishing the ABs scrum.

I think Eddie is eying up Ewels as the Kruis type of lock who just secures scrum and lineout. Does all the graft in the tight. I just don't think he's the same calibre though and Johnny Hill offers similar but with a lot more aggression and impact.

by Guest Thu 12 Nov - 17:49

No 7&1/2 wrote:Georgia obviously have a reputation of a strong set of forwards but it is a bit overegged.

People who think Georgia were still the team they were 5 years ago haven't realised they've had several of their superstars retire since then and were turd in the world cup, getting dominated by (an admittedly very good) Fiji.

England should dominate them in every part of the game.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 13 Nov - 7:16

What are peoples hopes for this game either on an individual or team basis? For me the obvious one (yes I know bang the drum) Willis plays like he does for Wasps. Honestly believe he can go down as a legend of the game. He has it all. Even a steady 7 put of 10 and a couple of turnovers would be ok in this game. The test comes in how he takes to training for the next, dont think Jones will drop Underhill or Curry straight away so should be showing hes ready for the bench.

Genge. I think hes our best loosehead overall. Rampaging with the ball and the strongest in the squad. Vunipola has been a mainstay but with the front row options we have and the general quality of ball in hand particularly from Sinckler are his strengths negated? Genge needs to show the scrum is more important to englands success.

Robson and Malins. Both are what I'd consider looser players naturally. Can Robson come on and show good control. Can Malins bring the fireworks with ball in hand but look more solid that Daly if indeed it's full back where he can get his chance? I'm a little concerned by his positioning and kicking, and his control of taking kicks is a little iffy. I guess those issues are the easiest to correct but Daly hasn't really moved on. After my past criticism of picking Halfpenny for solidity above all else I may be just looking for things to moan at: or being too greedy.

Team wise I want less kicking from the half backs which is seemingly directionless.

by Brendan Fri 13 Nov - 7:58

rugby racing and beer wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Georgia obviously have a reputation of a strong set of forwards but it is a bit overegged.

People who think Georgia were still the team they were 5 years ago haven't realised they've had several of their superstars retire since then and were turd in the world cup, getting dominated by (an admittedly very good) Fiji.

England should dominate them in every part of the game.

The only issue with that group was Fiji's second game in 5 days they lost to Uruagary. Uruagary then had their game 5 days later v Georgia and then Georgia played Fiji 5 days later.

Unsurprisingly the team with the shorter turnaround lost each game. They aren't what they were but they will still be physical for the full 80mins.

by Gooseberry Fri 13 Nov - 8:44

No 7&1/2 wrote:What are peoples hopes for this game either on an individual or team basis? For me the obvious one (yes I know bang the drum) Willis plays like he does for Wasps. Honestly believe he can go down as a legend of the game. He has it all. Even a steady 7 put of 10 and a couple of turnovers would be ok in this game. The test comes in how he takes to training for the next, dont think Jones will drop Underhill or Curry straight away so should be showing hes ready for the bench.

Genge. I think hes our best loosehead overall. Rampaging with the ball and the strongest in the squad. Vunipola has been a mainstay but with the front row options we have and the general quality of ball in hand particularly from Sinckler are his strengths negated? Genge needs to show the scrum is more important to englands success.

Robson and Malins. Both are what I'd consider looser players naturally. Can Robson come on and show good control. Can Malins bring the fireworks with ball in hand but look more solid that Daly if indeed it's full back where he can get his chance? I'm a little concerned by his positioning and kicking, and his control of taking kicks is a little iffy. I guess those issues are the easiest to correct but Daly hasn't really moved on. After my past criticism of picking Halfpenny for solidity above all else I may be just looking for things to moan at: or being too greedy.

Team wise I want less kicking from the half backs which is seemingly directionless.

To play consistently and cohesively for at least 60 minutes of the game. No stuttering, no periods of ill discipline, no collective headless chicken moments. Just calm execution of the basic skills.

Not sure how much time the likes of Mallins and Robson will get, would of course be nice to see them step up and play well. Worst case though is they come on and try too hard to make an impression by being spectacular and it going awry. Late in the game the play should be a bit more open and chances for them to play off the cuff without forcing it, and thats what Jones will be looking for...stick to the plan and then have the natural game to make things happen in broken play.

This game isnt going to show how good England are, or how good individual players are. It may show if they are capable of playing the way England want them to and if England still have that mental block where they come apart at the seams for big chinks of games when a side gets on them or mistakes disrupt their play.

by Guest Fri 13 Nov - 10:11

Brendan wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Georgia obviously have a reputation of a strong set of forwards but it is a bit overegged.

People who think Georgia were still the team they were 5 years ago haven't realised they've had several of their superstars retire since then and were turd in the world cup, getting dominated by (an admittedly very good) Fiji.

England should dominate them in every part of the game.

The only issue with that group was Fiji's second game in 5 days they lost to Uruagary. Uruagary then had their game 5 days later v Georgia and then Georgia played Fiji 5 days later.

Unsurprisingly the team with the shorter turnaround lost each game. They aren't what they were but they will still be physical for the full 80mins.

Of course, Fiji are all over the place, but their upper limit is incredible, the rugby the can and did play in 2018 and 2019 was top notch, beating France at home as well, seriously pushing Wales and Australia. The Uruguay game was the blip. Georgia were dominated by a good Fiji team but it helps put things in perspective - Georgia are nowhere near as good as they were 5 years ago. It's like still expecting Argentina to give your pack a tough test, it just isn't the case anymore. Scotland have dealt with them multiple times recently and they have the weakest pack in the 6Ns for me, or at least at best it's 4th choice. If they're overcoming Georgia with ease, England should walk it.

by Cumbrian Fri 13 Nov - 16:46

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Given that Itoje is viewed as one of our best scrummaging locks I wonder if we might see a repeat of Itoje wearing 6 but packing down at lock with Launchbury on the blindside. Similar to Lawes wearing 5 but scrummaging at blindside when Jones first started the 3 locks selection policy.

Launchbury is solid in the scrum, while Itoje and Lawes are both quicker than him.

While trying to check if Launchbury was one of those guys who played 6 at U20s found this team for the 2011 6Ns:

England starting XV to face Ireland:

15) Ben Ransom
14) Andy Short
13) Elliot Daly
12) Ryan Mills
11) Jonathan Joseph
10) George Ford
9) Chris Cook
1) Mako Vunipola
2) Mike Haywood
3) Henry Thomas
4) Joe Launchbury
5) Charlie Matthews
6) Matt Kvesic
7) Matt Everard
8) Alex Gray

Replacements:

16) Rob Buchanan
17) Will Collier
18) Addison Lockley
19) Sam Jones
20) Dan Robson
21) Owen Farrell
22) Jamie Elliott

A few blasts from the past in that side. What is notable is just how many of them have retired/ left rugby early.

Ben Ransom (26)
Andy Short (26)
Matt Everard (27)
Alex Gray (27)
Rob Buchanan (29)
Sam Jones (26)

Would Christian Wade have been kicking around that squad too?

by Cumbrian Fri 13 Nov - 16:53

I've just noticed about the England squad, we've got outside centres playing at 12, 13, 14, 15, with Marchant on the bench for good measure!

by Gooseberry Fri 13 Nov - 19:08

Cumbrian wrote:I've just noticed about the England squad, we've got outside centres playing at 12, 13, 14, 15, with Marchant on the bench for good measure!

Maybe theres just not enough good flankers in the squad to take their places

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 14:47

God I hope this is better than last week as a spectacle, at least the first half.

by Duty281 Sat 14 Nov - 15:03

England 1/1000 to win with Bet365.

No pressure, lads.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:05

Generous there from Owens. That's a pen.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:09

Great pick up from Lawrence not great from Slade!

Nice maul. Good start. Very exeter.
Think willis is a double movement there.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:11

Targeting vunipola when carrying. There ll be space elsewhere.

by king_carlos Sat 14 Nov - 15:14

Stuart has done really well against Nariashvili in the early scrums.

This is a strong Georgia front row but a weak second row behind it so tough to read too much but promising early set-piece work on Stuart's first start.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:15

Again very generous from Owens.

by Duty281 Sat 14 Nov - 15:16

No cards, Nige? That's about four/five consecutive penalties in the 'red zone'.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:16

This is awful from Owens.

by Heaf Sat 14 Nov - 15:17

The front rows went up yes but after England had driven them back 4 yards - should be a PT all day long

by Geordie Sat 14 Nov - 15:18

Two class scrums come on that should be a PT

by **LondonTiger** Sat 14 Nov - 15:18

Nige is definitely being generous to Georgia. There should have been a YC for the early deliberate knock on, and that was a clear cut PT.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:18

Try on debut.

by king_carlos Sat 14 Nov - 15:19

Excellent from Willis and Launchbury linking up there. They are double marked but do well.

by Geordie Sat 14 Nov - 15:19

Well 7.5 will be happy

by Heaf Sat 14 Nov - 15:19

Yep Georgia should be down to 13 already ...

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:19

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well 7.5 will be happy

No idea what you're referring to.

by king_carlos Sat 14 Nov - 15:20

PT or not it's promising early stuff from Genge and Stuart. The scrum is where they need to be clearly better than Mako and Sinckler to pressure Eddies first choices.

by Geordie Sat 14 Nov - 15:23

Agree KC

I also didn't realise how big Stuart was...130 kg (nearly 21 stone) - big lad

by Heaf Sat 14 Nov - 15:23

Nige ignoring knock-ons too now ... seems he feels sorry for Georgia already

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:23

Cough.

by Heaf Sat 14 Nov - 15:25

Wasted chance there

by Geordie Sat 14 Nov - 15:26

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cough.

Sorry?

by Geordie Sat 14 Nov - 15:28

Everything seems rushed and forced in the backs

by king_carlos Sat 14 Nov - 15:28

GeordieFalcon wrote:Agree KC

I also didn't realise how big Stuart was...130 kg (nearly 21 stone) - big lad

Pinch of salt on the stats was my thoughts when I saw that. I rate Stuart and he's obviously a colossal human as with most modern props but if he's a stone heavier than Harry Williams or half a stone heavier than Ehren Painter I'd be surprised.

Either way he's playing well today though which is great to see.

by king_carlos Sat 14 Nov - 15:28

Right on queue we lose a scrum... Laugh

by king_carlos Sat 14 Nov - 15:29

I hate the jump from outside the field of play, catch the ball cleanly, land in the field of play rule.

by BamBam Sat 14 Nov - 15:29

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Cough.

Sorry?

7.5 is spluttering at Willis first turnover I believe

by No 7&1/2 Sat 14 Nov - 15:30

Slades been a bit rubbish ball in hand so far.

by king_carlos Sat 14 Nov - 15:34

Does Lawrence seem to be lining up wider than Joseph quite consistently in attack?

by Geordie Sat 14 Nov - 15:34

No 7&1/2 wrote:Slades been a bit rubbish ball in hand so far.

Jury still very much out for me with regards to him.

by Soul Requiem Sat 14 Nov - 15:34

The kind of hit that Billy hasn't made enough of recently.

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