Gallagher Premiership 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

The new season starts next weekend. What are people's hopes and expectations?

Just came in and put on the Rugby. Nice try to Newcastle. Must be a good game...

Phew ... that was getting too tense

Fine with the call on Meehan. Pen for me.

Would be good to keep them out in this final play following the wobble

Good result in the end - harsh on Falcons to come away with nothing.

I like the look of Irish new ground

We didnt deserve anything, we were outplayed...especially at the breakdown.

I'm still amazed you can have so many foreign internationals on the same team by bending the rules do much....

Didnt realise you can do that.. and they wont be cheap either.

Louis Lynagh looks a really good young player.

If Brown does go to Falcons then Quins have ready made replacements in Lynagh and Morris. Chisholm isn't a bad third choice either.

There's talent in this Quins squad if they can bolster the second row with strong recruitment.

If Naholo ever gets fit that will be another one - I assume it must be legal though or someone would have said something. Sale seem to have a large contingent of foreign players as well.

Yeah it is legal Heaf, its kolpack etc..I'm just amazed its allowed.

Anyway..good game by your guys...you'll be a threat to the top sides this season..

That's one of the most rounded performances I've seen from Marcus Smith. Really good game management as well as attack.

A good start for Quins under Millard by hammering Wasps at the Ricoh.

Tom West missing for Wasps have a big affect on the scrum it seemed.

The problem is GF as mentioned, and you'll appreciate, when you regularly lose the bulk of your quality output from your academy to the likes of Bath and can't recruit quality English players as allegedly they get told if you play for certain teams they won't play for England, win cups etc then what other choice do they have if they want to compete and not just be a feeder club for other teams and bounce back and forth between the prem and the championship.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah it is legal Heaf,  its kolpack etc..I'm just amazed its allowed.

Anyway..good game by your guys...you'll be a threat to the top sides this season..

At one time I thought either the RFU or the Premiership had stipulated a maximum number of non-EQ players in any match. Was that right? Or did the rules change?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah it is legal Heaf,  its kolpack etc..I'm just amazed its allowed.

Not a question of allowed more a question of unenforceable against players from that country without breaking employment law.

The Kolpak ruling is a European Court of Justice ruling handed down on 8 May 2003 in favour of Maroš Kolpak, a Slovak handball player. It declared that citizens of countries which have signed European Union Association Agreements have the same right to freedom of work and movement within the EU as EU citizens.

Whether that will continue post Brexit I have no idea I've not read up on it.

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah it is legal Heaf,  its kolpack etc..I'm just amazed its allowed.

Anyway..good game by your guys...you'll be a threat to the top sides this season..

At one time I thought either the RFU or the Premiership had stipulated a maximum number of non-EQ players in any match.  Was that right?  Or did the rules change?    

It's two foreign players allowed on the pitch at any one time i believe. The definition of foreign isn't straight forward though, see my post above.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah it is legal Heaf,  its kolpack etc..I'm just amazed its allowed.

Not a question of allowed more a question of unenforceable against players from that country without breaking employment law.

The Kolpak ruling is a European Court of Justice ruling handed down on 8 May 2003 in favour of Maroš Kolpak, a Slovak handball player. It declared that citizens of countries which have signed European Union Association Agreements have the same right to freedom of work and movement within the EU as EU citizens.

Whether that will continue post Brexit I have no idea I've not read up on it.

I'm assuming the teams looked at how Brexit affects this given we are now post Brexit and post the transition period.

Heaf wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah it is legal Heaf,  its kolpack etc..I'm just amazed its allowed.

Not a question of allowed more a question of unenforceable against players from that country without breaking employment law.

The Kolpak ruling is a European Court of Justice ruling handed down on 8 May 2003 in favour of Maroš Kolpak, a Slovak handball player. It declared that citizens of countries which have signed European Union Association Agreements have the same right to freedom of work and movement within the EU as EU citizens.

Whether that will continue post Brexit I have no idea I've not read up on it.

I'm assuming the teams looked at how Brexit affects this given we are now post Brexit and post the transition period.

I would doubt any club consistently meets, or frankly ever met, that requirement if interpreted at face value.

Probably true - there are more than one or two Boks floating around the prem for example - not sure why LI are getting singled out for foreign players.

It's probably that they are the latest to do it. And many of the players they signed are transformative. I think all clubs should operate under a hard maximum, whatever it is, to help promote growth of the sport in England. In the meantime or until that happens, I wish Saints had signed some of those players...

Heaf wrote:Probably true - there are more than one or two Boks floating around the prem for example - not sure why LI are getting singled out for foreign players.

Not just having a go at LI.Your not doing anytihng wrong

Clearly Sale are doing the same and Saracens famously did the same.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah it is legal Heaf,  its kolpack etc..I'm just amazed its allowed.

Not a question of allowed more a question of unenforceable against players from that country without breaking employment law.

The Kolpak ruling is a European Court of Justice ruling handed down on 8 May 2003 in favour of Maroš Kolpak, a Slovak handball player. It declared that citizens of countries which have signed European Union Association Agreements have the same right to freedom of work and movement within the EU as EU citizens.

Whether that will continue post Brexit I have no idea I've not read up on it.

That will be interesting to see Sam. Im sure it will be part if the agreement still.

Quality yellow card moan from Richards on the Newcastle site. Nice to hear he has a view on players feigning injury and last I heard being winded isn't an automatic HIA.

https://www.newcastlefalcons.co.uk/news/story/reaction-dean-richards-post-match-verdict

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Heaf wrote:Probably true - there are more than one or two Boks floating around the prem for example - not sure why LI are getting singled out for foreign players.

Not just having a go at LI.Your not doing anytihng wrong

Clearly Sale are doing the same and Saracens famously did the same.

Tigers seem to building up quite a selection of Boks too ...

Heaf wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Heaf wrote:Probably true - there are more than one or two Boks floating around the prem for example - not sure why LI are getting singled out for foreign players.

Not just having a go at LI.Your not doing anytihng wrong

Clearly Sale are doing the same and Saracens famously did the same.

Tigers seem to building up quite a selection of Boks too ...

Rumours of another replacing Taufua as well.

When stronger clubs are filled with non-EQP players I worry but when weaker clubs do it to raise their standards it tends to concern me less from an England perspective. Sale have improved out of sight for instance by bringing in Faf, Jono and Rohan followed by the du Preez brothers. That improvement has allowed the Curry and James brothers to develop in a better set-up. Redpath as well it could be argued. Yes, Cam ended up with Bath and Scotland but still Sale academy and an England prospect at those times.

As long as those clubs are still bringing academy talent through into those improved set-ups I tend to think it will be better for the England team in the long run. So often when England U20 talents comes through in weak Premiership teams their development completely stalls. Game time is very important for young players but as a Tigers fan I'd argue that academy graduates at Exeter for instance would probably get more out of 5 starts in a season for Chiefs than their Tigers counterparts will from 10 starts at Leicester in recent years.

Currently I feel that the stronger Premiership clubs whilst having some very high quality non-EQP players are still bringing EQP talent through into their sides.

Indeed - I think the likes of Loader, Parton and OHC at LI will do better in the current set-up than if LI were getting pasted every week ... and who knows they may even not end up at Bath (and now I promise not to mention Bath again) ...

Heaf wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah it is legal Heaf,  its kolpack etc..I'm just amazed its allowed.

Not a question of allowed more a question of unenforceable against players from that country without breaking employment law.

The Kolpak ruling is a European Court of Justice ruling handed down on 8 May 2003 in favour of Maroš Kolpak, a Slovak handball player. It declared that citizens of countries which have signed European Union Association Agreements have the same right to freedom of work and movement within the EU as EU citizens.

Whether that will continue post Brexit I have no idea I've not read up on it.

I'm assuming the teams looked at how Brexit affects this given we are now post Brexit and post the transition period.

Hard to look at it when they didn't know what it was until just before Christmas because our government wanted to play chicken instead of behaving like adults and getting it sorted well in advance.

From what I could find the Kolpak arrangement has finished however, we have an agreement whereby those that were living and working here already have a right to remain. That's a reciprocal arrangement. Unsure how easy it will be bringing players in going forward but as Tigers seem to be about to announce a new Bok signing presumably not that hard.

What the RFU try and enforce going forward will also be interesting as trying to tell the clubs two foreign players means two non-English players is likely to see the Prem clubs give them the finger and civil war break out.

If half the players in the Premership were EQ and the other half were good quality players I don't think there would be any issue.  You would still have 11 players across a 23 match day squad.  As people have said better players to compete with make you better. If the 12/14 squads/23 had to have 90% EQ then the standard would drop which doesn't help the national team.

It is unlikely that England would run into the same issues as Ireland did when certain positions only had one IQ player starting each week.  If the RFU were worried then they have the money to structure the EPS payments as they want.  It's not like the PRL have the money to go it alone as the RFU contribution is still a massive chunk of the PRL's money.

I think like Sarries and Sale before them it's easier to get "foreigners" to come to Irish and give it a go where as few english born rugby players would dream of playing for Irish and don't want the slog that is involved with the lower teams.  They instead want to play for the big clubs

Worth pointing out that after the original bok invasion at Sarries most of them either were or became EQ or were phased out over time. Recent Sarries squads had a high EQ quota.

lostinwales wrote:Worth pointing out that after the original bok invasion at Sarries most of them either were or became EQ or were phased out over time. Recent Sarries squads had a high EQ quota.

But would they have all that if the original players hadn't come. They raised the standards and made it a good place to play.

Newcastle and Irish seem to produce plenty of players just can't hold onto them

Newcastle Falcons team to face Exeter Chiefs (Sunday, 1pm, Kingston Park Stadium, live on BT Sport 2)

15 Joel Hodgson
14 Adam Radwan
13 George Wacokecoke
12 Matias Orlando
11 Ben Stevenson
10 Brett Connon
9 Louis Schreuder

1 Trevor Davison
2 George McGuigan
3 Logovi’i Mulipola
4 Greg Peterson
5 Marco Fuser
6 Sean Robinson (captain)
7 John Hardie
8 Philip van der Walt

Replacements
16 Jamie Blamire
17 Kyle Cooper
18 Mark Tampin
19 Darren Barry
20 Connor Collett
21 Sam Stuart
22 Gareth Owen
23 Cooper Vuna

15 Freddie Steward [18]

14 Kobus Van Wyk [

13 Matías Moroni [

12 Matt Scott [1

11 Nemani Nadolo [

10 Zack Henry [1

9 Richard Wigglesworth [

1 Luan de Bruin [

2 Julián Montoya [

3 Dan Cole [24

4 Tomás Lavanini [2

5 Calum Green [4

6 Hanro Liebenberg [2

7 Cyle Brink [

8 Jasper Wiese [

Replacemen

16 Tom Youngs [20

17 Nephi Leatigaga [3

18 Joe Heyes [5

19 Harry Wells [10

20 George Martin [

21 Jack Van Poortvliet [

22 Johnny McPhillips [

23 Kini Murimurivalu [

Worcester Warriors: 15 Chris Pennell, 14 Nick David, 13 Oli Morris, 12 Ashley Beck, 11 Perry Humphreys, 10 Duncan Weir, 9 Gareth Simpson, 1 Marc Thomas, 2 Niall Annett, 3 Nick Schonert, 4 Anton Bresler, 5 Graham Kitchener, 6 Marco Mama, 7 Matt Kvesic (c), 8 Cornell du Preez. Replacements: 16 Beck Cutting, 17 Ethan Waller, 18 Richard Palframan, 19 Justin Clegg, 20 Ted Hill, 21 Sam Lewis, 22 Francois Hougaard, 23 Jamie Shillcok6]9]8]5]6]3]5]0]ts6]6]1]7]2]8]1]2]4]3]8]1]2]5]Lewis, 22 Francois Hougaard, 23 Jamie Shillcock.

Well the Tigers have gone big up front. Green possibly the lightest member of the pack.

I didn't know Cooper Vuna was still kicking around. How is he doing? At one point I thought he was really good.

doctor_grey wrote:I didn't know Cooper Vuna was still kicking around.  How is he doing?  At one point I thought he was really good.  

Nobody knows...he played about 3 minutes last season. I forgot he was still with us tbh

Bristol’s front 5 looks okay on paper but they’ve been really good for the last few weeks. Folded Sale’s scrum despite losing.

mikey_dragon wrote:Bristol’s front 5 looks okay on paper but they’ve been really good for the last few weeks. Folded Sale’s scrum despite losing.

Young Bevan Rodd has been a real gem for them. Looks like he could develop into a fantastic loosehead. He's English but with his name you'd assume he qualifies for Wales as well. I think he's played English age grade so he'll be on the Welsh radar.

I was talking about Woolmore and old man Afoa actually. The Bristol locks are pretty average but have been playing well, so I’m guessing Pat Lam has learnt from that mauling by Wasps. Fantastic coach he is.

I’ve not heard of Bevan Rodd. There was a certain Joe Jones with Sale who looked pretty good in the lower levels and for Wales U20. He doesn’t seem to be progressing though. Hopefully another late bloomer like John as he could be handy if the Welsh Regions are to progress.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I didn't know Cooper Vuna was still kicking around.  How is he doing?  At one point I thought he was really good.  

Nobody knows...he played about 3 minutes last season. I forgot he was still with us tbh

Glad it's not just me.

The Ref, touch judges and TMO were to blame for Baths defeat today. Shocking standard of biased refereeing.

TightHEAD wrote:The Ref, touch judges and TMO were to blame for Baths defeat today. Shocking standard of biased refereeing.

At least you're giving Stuart Hooper a week off TH!

king_carlos wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:The Ref, touch judges and TMO were to blame for Baths defeat today. Shocking standard of biased refereeing.

At least you're giving Stuart Hooper a week off TH!

I do hope that Bruce Craig agrees with TH. That way they'll get to keep Hooper for a bit longer.

Three wins on the trot for Saints including 2 away from FG. Up to 5th now, dizzy heights from where we were before Christmas.

Is Exeters O'Flaherty not on the Irish sights? Hes a goood player

Couldnt let Witty score there!!!

Dean richards and Eddie Jones must share the same Tactics handbook ....

Dear lord

I think we must be the easiest team to defend against in the prem..

Is Exeters O'Flaherty not on the Irish sights? Hes a goood player


I think you have to go back several generations to find some Irish blood

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Exeters O'Flaherty not on the Irish sights? Hes a goood player

He's England born and schooled, but got his pro rugby start with Ospreys after going to uni in Cardiff.

Given the name he likely has an Irish parent or granny. Then again I wouldn't have guessed that Josh van der Flier is second gen Ireland born given his surname. The accent is a bit of a giveaway though!

O'Flaherty is excellent. A typical Chiefs signing. They get so much out of players like O'Flaherty and Woodburn that other sides didn't quite seem to.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Exeters O'Flaherty not on the Irish sights? Hes a goood player

He's England born and schooled, but got his pro rugby start with Ospreys after going to uni in Cardiff.

Given the name he likely has an Irish parent or granny. Then again I wouldn't have guessed that Josh van der Flier is second gen Ireland born given his surname. The accent is a bit of a giveaway though!

O'Flaherty is excellent. A typical Chiefs signing. They get so much out of players like O'Flaherty and Woodburn that other sides didn't quite seem to.

Coaching, mate.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Dean richards and Eddie Jones must share the same Tactics handbook  ....

Dear lord

We really are a very odd side.

This has happened for a number of years now....we start off the season firing, playing high intensity/attacking rugby and get a few wins on the board. We them to seem to slowly regress into this conservative style, afraid to make an mistakes or to cut loose.

Either it's DR defending what we have, squad mentality not coping with us doing well or sides working us out?

But Sgt, what do we do in training.

Exeter werent brilliant yesterday by any means. We had a good amount of possession. We could easily have won that game.

But when we get the ball...we look like rabbits in the headlight. We have no clue what we are supposed to be doing.

Teams can defend against us easily...

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Sgt, what do we do in training.

Exeter werent brilliant yesterday by any means. We had a good amount of possession. We could easily have won that game.

But when we get the ball...we look like rabbits in the headlight. We have no clue what we are supposed to be doing.

Teams can defend against us easily...

Excellent!