Gallagher Premiership 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

The new season starts next weekend. What are people's hopes and expectations?

I was working this morning (here) and missed the match. Plan to watch after lunch. What was the red/non-red incident? I guess from the comments above it was in the first half....

A couple of minutes in Bristol 12 tip-tackles LI player. Replay shows he lands on neck/head and is clearly dangerous and the exact type of thing they've tried to ref out of the game but the ref and TMO decided it's top of back and give a yellow only.

I think that was certainly a red card offence.

Great game to watch. What's the story on George Nott and his Welsh links? Some regions might be sniffing.

George has been playing well recently IMO, I know he was born in Wales but I believe he's played all his rugby in England, including the England under 20's. Not sure of his international ambitions.

I'm not sure either but wondered if he was Welsh or just happened to be born there.

mikey_dragon wrote:I think that was certainly a red card offence.

Great game to watch. What's the story on George Nott and his Welsh links? Some regions might be sniffing.

FFS (not Ford-Farrell-Slade in this case), that was a clear red to me.
The player lifted didn't have the ball. Penalty
There was no need to pick the legs at all. Yellow.
The player was picked up far past horizontal. Yellow/Red
Contact point was top of shoulders followed a nanosecond later by the lifted player's head hitting and bouncing off the turf. Red

That is a shocking decision.

Was a really odd call. Was practically simultaneous for me and his head bounced off the turf. Terrible tackle that should have seen red. It shouldn't matter, but it was especially annoying that it was on a player who had struggled with head knocks in recent years. Thankfully doesn't seem to have done any damage in this case.

Officials are either interested in protecting heads or not.

mikey_dragon wrote:I think that was certainly a red card offence.

Great game to watch. What's the story on George Nott and his Welsh links? Some regions might be sniffing.

From North Wales, came through Sale academy. Made it into their squad at a young age as an athletic lock/6 looked decent in under 20s was a mobile lock looked in the modern style. Dropped down the pecking order at Sale and stagnated. Moved to LI and seems to be building back up towards his potential.

Margin_Walker wrote:Was a really odd call. Was practically simultaneous for me and his head bounced off the turf. Terrible tackle that should have seen red. It shouldn't matter, but it was especially annoying that it was on a player who had struggled with head knocks in recent years. Thankfully doesn't seem to have done any damage in this case.

Officials are either interested in protecting heads or not.

This was just a vicious impact against the player's head as that of POM. Sanctions should be the same, at the minimum.

Any Bath fans or watchers can tell us much about Josh Baylis, who has been called into the Scotland squad in a typical left field move from Toonie that none of us saw coming. He gas a granny from Aberdeen apparently!

Is he any good and do you think he might cut it at international level. Looking at our squad, he could easily be on the bench against France this sunday!

BigGee wrote:Any Bath fans or watchers can tell us much about Josh Baylis, who has been called into the Scotland squad in a typical left field move from Toonie that none of us saw coming. He gas a granny from Aberdeen apparently!

Is he any good and do you think he might cut it at international level. Looking at our squad, he could easily be on the bench against France this sunday!

I remember the name because he was an England U20 player. Seems to be the standard route into the Welsh and Scottish teams these days.

I've not seen much of him, but he's been raved about as a very consistent Prem performer who could potentially step up by a few outlets.

Thanks guys, that sounds quite promising

Big workrate, physical but without being necessarily known for it. Bath fans seem to consider him to have leadership potential. I had him as a good club player Bath would want to hold on for years to come. Don't think he'd have ever made the England set up but you never know if given the chance whether he'll elevate his game. He does tend to be a player that you don't really notice or isn't really talked about but is often mentioned in commentary (tackle by it carry by) if you know what I mean.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think that was certainly a red card offence.

Great game to watch. What's the story on George Nott and his Welsh links? Some regions might be sniffing.

From North Wales, came through Sale academy. Made it into their squad at a young age as an athletic lock/6 looked decent in under 20s was a mobile lock looked in the modern style. Dropped down the pecking order at Sale and stagnated. Moved to LI and seems to be building back up towards his potential.

Good North Walians usually get picked up by Sale or Leicester. Do you know where his parents are from?

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think that was certainly a red card offence.

Great game to watch. What's the story on George Nott and his Welsh links? Some regions might be sniffing.

From North Wales, came through Sale academy. Made it into their squad at a young age as an athletic lock/6 looked decent in under 20s was a mobile lock looked in the modern style. Dropped down the pecking order at Sale and stagnated. Moved to LI and seems to be building back up towards his potential.

Good North Walians usually get picked up by Sale or Leicester. Do you know where his parents are from?

Not a clue. Nott is from Bodelwyddan but unsure how much time he actually spent there or where his parents are from. At 25 he should be coming into his prime so perhaps not unsurprisingly he are hearing more about him. I'm not sure Irish will be pleased if the Regions come calling with WRU backing.

Not sure how many Welsh lads we get hold of. Costelow and Reffell are the most notable ones recently and neither is from North Wales. There's no other age grade lads I'm aware we've got at the minute, think there may have been a winger a season or so back but he didn't sign a development contract. We've had some with Scottish ancestry as well I'm not sure if we've still got a Scottish age grade player in the academy.

Nott's a squad player really. He's done well, but he doesn't strike me as a player that's going to break through and play much international rugby. You never know though.

He has successfully remodelled his game though since his England U20s days. Was more of a six then in the Tom Croft mould. Lots of gas, but perhaps not too at home in the tight. These days he's very much a specialist lock who can do the nuts and bolts, but has a bit of a turn of pace as a party piece.

It's funny you mention Tom Croft because a few of us were talking about him the other day wondering if he would have a place the way Rugby is played today. I thought he was a terrific player and spent some time talking with him when he was injured and come over here with the Saxons some years ago. He wouldn't be a jackler like we see today, but he was very fast to the breakdown, read plays brilliantly, was a solid tackler and had terrific ball skills. Also deceptively tough. His main drawback, a character flaw, was playing for Leicester when he clearly would have looked better wearing green, gold, and black.

Apparently Sam Bedlow has been cited - they should also punish the pair of clowns that gave a yellow for one of the most obvious red cards you're likely to see as they aren't doing their jobs to protect players.

doctor_grey wrote:It's funny you mention Tom Croft because a few of us were talking about him the other day wondering if he would have a place the way Rugby is played today.  I thought he was a terrific player and spent some time talking with him when he was injured and come over here with the Saxons some years ago.  He wouldn't be a jackler like we see today, but he was very fast to the breakdown, read plays brilliantly, was a solid tackler and had terrific ball skills.  Also deceptively tough.  His main drawback, a character flaw, was playing for Leicester when he clearly would have looked better wearing green, gold, and black.  

I think I read somewhere that him and Bananaman played together at lock for an age grade team. Odd things happen in those teams. I saw an England U20 team where the biggest guy on the pitch was the 10 (Mallinder of course).

I really liked watching Croft, and your description of how he played is accurate. Of course he was also a terrific line out operator (Lions - AWJ lifting Croft- Don't know if they got as high as an Itoje standing jump but that was quite something) but he also covered more grass than even May does. He was a unique player

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:It's funny you mention Tom Croft because a few of us were talking about him the other day wondering if he would have a place the way Rugby is played today.  I thought he was a terrific player and spent some time talking with him when he was injured and come over here with the Saxons some years ago.  He wouldn't be a jackler like we see today, but he was very fast to the breakdown, read plays brilliantly, was a solid tackler and had terrific ball skills.  Also deceptively tough.  His main drawback, a character flaw, was playing for Leicester when he clearly would have looked better wearing green, gold, and black.  

I think I read somewhere that him and Bananaman played together at lock for an age grade team. Odd things happen in those teams. I saw an England U20 team where the biggest guy on the pitch was the 10 (Mallinder of course).

I really liked watching Croft, and your description of how he played is accurate. Of course he was also a terrific line out operator (Lions - AWJ lifting Croft- Don't know if they got as high as an Itoje standing jump but that was quite something) but he also covered more grass than even May does. He was a unique player

Unique is the right description. Crofty was one of the best if not the best lineout jumper of his generation. Ridiculous skillset. He was probably misrepresented by the Tigers set up at the time that used him to cover the openside whilst the 7 and 8 played pretty tight. McGeehan in his autobiography talked about being cautious of selecting him for the Lions because of that but when he did he had no hesitation with putting him in because Croft could get stuck in when he needed to. He'd come through the academy and into the first team alongside some blokes whom you wouldn't want to do mauling practice with after all.

I think a player like that is a player you find room for them.

Croft's biggest failing in an England shirt was not being paired with the right backrow partner. He needed a real workhorse who could do the hard graft for two to give him the freedom to do what he did best. But Richard Hill was crocked by the time he came along, and he got his bad neck injury in the year that Robshaw broke into the England team (ironically by running into Nick Easter head first in a dry run for that year's AP Final). We probably never saw the best of him at International level.

He did have an exceptional skill set and physical attributes, which today might have been back in favour. Given Eddie's penchant for playing Lawes at 6, you could imagine swapping in Croft at his peak and having someone who can do a very similar role but more and faster, which could work well with England's current gameplan.

Poorfour wrote:(ironically by running into Nick Easter head first in a dry run for that year's AP Final). We probably never saw the best of him at International level.

He didn't run into Easter, Easter broke off the back of a scrum and Croft got caught flat footed with his head on the wrong side. Which is why we tackle properly kids.

Much like the England side at the time we saw good showings not regular excellence though the home win over Australia where he set up an Ashton try with a sensational out of the back hand pass as he hits the deck was a highlight. I think in an Eddie team he could have really flourished as let's face it he'd have been amazing at the modern kick chase game.

I was always a big fan of Croft. He was superb and I'm sure he would have had a role at the top of the game if he was coming through now.

Got a bit of light hearted stick for seagulling out on the wing, but he was a lot better in the tight than his reputation may have suggested*. At 6 he gave you so much threat both in open field and in the lineout. Just a shame that he was held back by the injury.

*Edit - As has been pointed out. He was a Leicester player under Cockers. He wouldn't have had a look in if he couldn't do the basics to a decent standard.

The only thing I can think of with Nott, if he’s WQ, is for our head coach to dangle the carrot and he ends up at Scarlets as a replacement for Shingler and Blade Thomson.

Margin_Walker wrote:I was always a big fan of Croft. He was superb and I'm sure he would have had a role at the top of the game if he was coming through now.

Got a bit of light hearted stick for seagulling out on the wing, but he was a lot better in the tight than his reputation may have suggested*. At 6 he gave you so much threat both in open field and in the lineout. Just a shame that he was held back by the injury.

*Edit - As has been pointed out. He was a Leicester player under Cockers. He wouldn't have had a look in if he couldn't do the basics to a decent standard.

He always tortured Saints.  Not the only forward to gravitate to the wing from time to time.  The ABs used to always have a forward out there, even a big unit like Brad Thorn. Now with many teams playing a 1-3-3-1, I think it's more common than ever.

I think that the ABs were the first side to really perfect the 1-3-3-1 with Read and Kaino playing out wide and the rest filling in the middle. It helped having McCaw covering the middle 40 metres of the pitch though to be fair.

I wish England would start Earl so we could see him in those wide channels. I think Jamie George is a terrific player but a decidedly odd option to use out wide as much as England do. He's hardly Asafo Aumua or Dane Coles, or dare I say it Harry Thacker.

Croft was a wonderful player who England didn't quite see the best of due to injuries at his peak and poor teams when he was available. I'm glad that Crofty went on two Lions tours and played 5 Tests as that really is a better representation of his quality than a somewhat stop-start England career.

It's funny, my club plays a 1-3-3-1 so when I am in the back row, I get to play wider than if I were in the centres.  Of course, I really should be playing for our over 35s, and feel like I should play in our over 95s.  Alas, that is another story and we will see when Covid is more under control and when games go ahead.

Heaf wrote:Apparently Sam Bedlow has been cited - they should also punish the pair of clowns that gave a yellow for one of the most obvious red cards you're likely to see as they aren't doing their jobs to protect players.

3 week ban - shows it was a red as everyone bar the chuckle brothers could clearly see. I wonder if officials get feedback when they get these calls so badly wrong?

Heaf wrote:

Heaf wrote:Apparently Sam Bedlow has been cited - they should also punish the pair of clowns that gave a yellow for one of the most obvious red cards you're likely to see as they aren't doing their jobs to protect players.

3 week ban - shows it was a red as everyone bar the chuckle brothers could clearly see.  I wonder if officials get feedback when they get these calls so badly wrong?

The referees have meetings with the head of referees (or whatever the title is) to discuss their games and performance I believe.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Heaf wrote:Apparently Sam Bedlow has been cited - they should also punish the pair of clowns that gave a yellow for one of the most obvious red cards you're likely to see as they aren't doing their jobs to protect players.

3 week ban - shows it was a red as everyone bar the chuckle brothers could clearly see.  I wonder if officials get feedback when they get these calls so badly wrong?

The referees have meetings with the head of referees (or whatever the title is) to discuss their games and performance I believe.

Though according to Wayne Barnes the kind of feedback they get is very variable

This is one of those cases where it seemed fairly obvious to everyone, excepting the referee and the other officials, was a straight red. Bizarre.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Heaf wrote:Apparently Sam Bedlow has been cited - they should also punish the pair of clowns that gave a yellow for one of the most obvious red cards you're likely to see as they aren't doing their jobs to protect players.

3 week ban - shows it was a red as everyone bar the chuckle brothers could clearly see.  I wonder if officials get feedback when they get these calls so badly wrong?

The referees have meetings with the head of referees (or whatever the title is) to discuss their games and performance I believe.

Though according to Wayne Barnes the kind of feedback they get is very variable

I'd be happy to give those two some feedback

Quins v Falcons game to go ahead...

Finally we get a game. Quins in form though so could be a long afternoon. Be nice to See Browny playing against his new side...

Falcons team v Quins..

15 Tom Penny
14 Adam Radwan
13 Matias Orlando
12 Luther Burrell
11 Ben Stevenson
10 Joel Hodgson
9 Louis Schreuder

1 Trevor Davison
2 George McGuigan
3 Logovi’i Mulipola
4 Greg Peterson
5 Marco Fuser
6 Sean Robinson (captain)
7 Philip van der Walt
8 Callum Chick

Replacements
16 Jamie Blamire
17 Adam Brocklebank
18 Mark Tampin
19 Darren Barry
20 John Hardie
21 Sam Stuart
22 Brett Connon
23 Mateo Carreras

Leicester Tigers (v Bristol Bears, away, Saturday 1.00pm)

[club appearances in bracket

15 Kini Murimurivalu [

14 Kobus Van Wyk [

13 Matías Moroni [

12 Dan Kelly [

11 Guy Porter [1

10 Joaquín Díaz Bonilla [

9 Jack Van Poortvliet [1

1 Nephi Leatigaga [3

2 Tom Youngs (c) [20

3 Joe Heyes [5

4 Cameron Henderson [

5 Tomás Lavanini [2

6 Harry Wells [10

7 Tommy Reffell [3

8 Ollie Chessum [

Replacemen

16 Charlie Clare [1

17 James Whitcombe [

18 Dan Cole [25

19 Calum Green [5

20 Luke Wallace [1

21 Ben White [6

22 Johnny McPhillips [1

23 Harry Simmons [2

Bristol Bears: 15 Charles Piutau, 14 Luke Morahan, 13 Piers O’Conor, 12 Alapati Leiua, 11 Siva Naulago, 10 Ioan Lloyd, 9 Andy Uren; 1 Jake Woolmore, 2 Will Capon, 3 John Afoa, 4 Chris Vui, 5 Joe Joyce, 6 Steven Luatua (c), 7 Dan Thomas, 8 Jake Heenan

Replacements: 16 George Kloska, 17 Yann Thomas, 28 Jake Armstrong, 19 Ed Holmes, 20 Fitz Harding, 21 Tom Kessell, 22 Tiff Eden, 23 Niyi Adeolokun.

Well Borthwick is rotating heavily again just like he did for the last away game. 12 from the 23 academy grads and 17 of the 23 EQ. I think the backrow which contains two locks might have a long day at the office though.

Red again

The fact is he doesn't need to do that

As a fan I feel I don't want to watch the rest of this game!

Another good match up ruined.

Just an utterly stupid action by the offending player, especially in light of last weekend.

Also don't like Exeter's tactic of lifting a receiving player in the air, from kick-off/restart, and keeping him in the air longer than necessary in an effort to buy a cheap penalty from an opposing player rushing in. That in itself is dangerous play, though it led to a Sale player getting binned.

Shame Dickson didn't have the balls to issue a clear red last week ...

Ross should be off.

Eddie Jones why aren't you picking Sam Simmonds.

Bloody stupid stubborn call

Well taken as always but Simmonds but uncharacteristically poor defence from Faf. He's usually exceptional in that area.

Exeter are looking a lot more composed despite being a man down.

Well taken try by Sale. Hodge was noticeably out of position for Faf's break but that isn't unusual for a fullback adapting to senior rugby.

The initial pass to McGuigan that started that move was a lovely ball.

I'm not sure that tackle would have been made without Lood there anyway. There's an argument the second man prevented the tackle but it looked like the defender intentionally ran into that second man rather than attempt the tackle. A tough call on Sale in my opinion.

A good finish adds to a good game for Langdon there.

When he breaks loose there he will be isolated if he doesn't finish the try, he does well to get there.

TightHEAD wrote:Ross should be off.

He's the other one that should have had a red card against Irish but the ref called it a 'rugby incident' - a few weeks later an Irish player was given a red for a less bad example of the same thing. He must have pictures of the head ref or something ...

Surely you go for posts there. 8 points ahead with a minute left if the kick goes over. If it doesn't go over there's one minute left and the ball gets kicked back to you from the 22 dropout.