"Game of the Year" - England vs Ireland - ANC round 2

by Pot Hale Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:35 am

First topic message reminder :

Eddie Jones thought he'd ramp up the pressure on his own team in advance of England playing Ireland next weekend in the ANC by declaring it the game of the year. Nobody took him too seriously but he does like to give the media a soundbite or two to keep them happy. No doubt, he'll be saying the same thing when his team travel across the country to play Wales. And, in playing the winners of Pool B in the final game of this Autumn Nations Cup.

The latest rugby broadcaster, Amazon Prime, has already scheduled the England playoff final match on its own at Sunday lunchtime on 6 Dec in Twickenham. They know which side their financial bread is buttered, even if they don't know where Northern Ireland is.

Before then, however, England have a little job to do. They played against and with Georgia at the weekend, with the Georgians supposed ace in the scrum turning out to be less than anticipated. Job done and 5 points in the bank.

Andy Farrell is the one with more work to do with his team being royally spanked in the last few tests against England. the English have the pack-power to put paid to Ireland before a pass even reaches their backline. So can Farrell change that with selection policy or different game plan.

Against Wales, Ireland were missing normal first-teamers Furlong, Henderson, Leavy, Stander, Aki, Ringrose, Stockdale and Larmour. They weren't missed. Ireland can expect to have Stander and Aki available for Twickenham and assuming the medical illnesses that prevented Stockdale and Henderson from playing against Wales will have abated in time to allow them join the squad.

Whilst it might seem obvious that Henderson would start if available, Quinn Roux, probably for the first time since he arrived on a trial year at Leinster in 2012, managed to demonstrate to a lot of Irish fans that he might actually be useful and worth selecting. Originally picked by Schmidt specifically as a tighthead lock on their SA tour in 2016, Roux had only gained a dozen caps before starting against Wales. He provided the needed ballast for Porter at scrum time, and made himself a nuisance in the loose and useful in carrying including getting the first try. Does he get to start again and displace the incumbent?

Conor Murray might be another to look to his laurels when he saw the pace that Jamison Gibson Park instilled into proceedings right from kick-off to the final whilst. Andy Farrell might see him as a useful 9/10 to bring off the bench.

Elsewhere, Stockdale will likely be brought back in, although Farrell might prefer him on the wing with Keenan seeming more assured at full-back.

And in midfield, is Aki an automatic pick at 12 with either Henshaw (27) or Chris Farrell (27) as his partner? Aki will be nearing 31 at end of next Six Nations - is he likely to be first pick when he's 33.5 years of age by the time of RWC 2023? Or does Farrell need to make more room/time for others including Ringrose, McCloskey, and possibly 1 or 2 others?

Caelan Doris is making the No 8 position his own with each passing game, but it may be too early to omit Stander from the backrow equation. Does POM get dropped to the bench again to make way?

Eddie Jones will already be plotting another Ireland downfall. Will he go for pack power again combined with the accurate England kicking game, or does he have another few tricks up his sleeve?

Plenty to chat about, particularly once the team announcements come in.

Ireland Match Day 23
H Keenan; K Earls, C Farrell, B Aki, J Lowe; R Byrne, J Gibson-Park; C Healy, R Kelleher, A Porter; Q Roux, J Ryan (capt); CJ Stander, P O'Mahony, C Doris.
Reps: R Herring, E Byrne, F Bealham, I Henderson, W Connors, C Murray, B Burns, J Stockdale

England Squad
Elliot Daly Owen Farrell George Ford Jonathan Joseph Ollie Lawrence Max Malins Jonny MayDan Robson Henry Slade Ollie Thorley Ben Youngs
Tom Curry Tom Dunn Ben Earl Ellis Genge Jamie George Jonny Hill Maro Itoje Joe Launchbury Lewis Ludlam Kyle Sinckler Will Stuart Sam Underhill Billy Vunipola Mako Vunipola

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:09 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Not sure if about the pack set up, Ireland have a very strong line out and we have put out possibly our weakest line out. Launchbury is competent only at this level, Itoje excellent and then who, neither Curry or Underhill are even close to POM. The Irish will mark Itoje with possibly two jumpers knowing they can still pressure Launchbury and probably Curry.

I like the idea of putting out two very strong scrummaging props for the latter part of the game and I like what Ford could do coming on presumably for Lawrence or Slade, but I would preferred to see him start and be replaced later on if he is not yet fully fit. It would be a chance to see Malins at 10 and if that is not working,drop him back to 15 and bring Daly into the centres and Farrell at 10.

Well these tests were to be used as a bit of a check on new combos and players. If the lineout holds up as even I as launchbury fanboy acknowledges that's great for us.

by Gooseberry Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:14 pm

BamBam wrote:I like that team on the whole. Definitely feels like it has a degree of flexibility in the backs, and I'm also a fan of Launchbury so hope the lineout does go well.

Hope Malins can get some time at FB, would like to see more of him, but disappointed Thorley doesn't look like he's in favour. With Watson injured again I want to see us develop another true wing to take over from May / Watson rather than shoe horning JJ in

In defence of shoehorning Joseph in they are missing another two specialist wings in Cokasinga and Nowell. Anyone who gets in is starting from way down the established pecking order with Watson, May and Daly all proven test wingers and long term squad options.

Not sure who out there is really standing up as someone who would break into that group with the potential to be much better short or long term. Being sixth choice winger hardly makes it controversial to be left out. Thorley did come on at wing against Italy too. Solomona I assume is going to remain an outsider after admitting he had a coke problem.

What happened to that Scottish sevens bloke who got in the world Cup squad?

But right now I don't have a big issue with JJ on the wing as a fill in, hes always had the pace for it.

by Cumbrian Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:54 pm

It is a beefy back for England, I guess Eddie has learned that we have got our best results against Ireland when we are able to physically bully them up front (I suppose that goes for most international teams though). I envisage a lot of kicking, it seems to be England's only game plan and in turn Ireland must look at Daly and Joseph in the back three and fancy being able to turn them over under the high ball.

by lostinwales Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:55 pm

The only real question mark over the wing choices is what has happened with Thorley.

Beyond that Marchant is unfortunate not to be involved.

Lineouts will be interesting. I think Launchbury took a few last weekend. George is of course accurate which will make a lot of difference.

by BamBam Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:18 am

Gooseberry wrote:
BamBam wrote:I like that team on the whole. Definitely feels like it has a degree of flexibility in the backs, and I'm also a fan of Launchbury so hope the lineout does go well.

Hope Malins can get some time at FB, would like to see more of him, but disappointed Thorley doesn't look like he's in favour. With Watson injured again I want to see us develop another true wing to take over from May / Watson rather than shoe horning JJ in

In defence of shoehorning Joseph in they are missing another two specialist wings in Cokasinga and Nowell. Anyone who gets in is starting from way down the established pecking order with Watson, May and Daly all proven test wingers and long term squad options.

Not sure who out there is really standing up as someone who would break into that group with the potential to be much better short or long term. Being sixth choice winger hardly makes it controversial to be left out. Thorley did come on at wing against Italy too. Solomona I assume is going to remain an outsider after admitting he had a coke problem.

What happened to that Scottish sevens bloke who got in the world Cup squad?

But right now I don't have a big issue with JJ on the wing as a fill in, hes always had the pace for it.

Yeah that's fair when you consider Joe and Nowell - assume that means that Eddie knows he isn't going to deviate much from May / Watson / Joe / Nowell as his 4 with Daly as the emergency option, so Thorley etc all are on the outside. Bit of a shame given his form, I think he could be a real asset with his physical profile

by king_carlos Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:29 am

I'm happy to see Itoje running the lineout. After Lawes injury I said that I hoped they took the risk of Itoje calling the lineout for the first time in a long while to see if Itoje and Launchbury are a viable partnership at international level. It is a risk but worth taking in my opinion.

Elsewhere things are as expected. Ford and Malins on the bench suggest that Malins is a viewed as a fullback option, has leapfrogged Furbank which I'm happy to see.

I rate all of POM, Stander and Doris but England should be winning the breakdown battle with two second rows who are very good there and two opensides on the flanks.

It's a shame that Furlong is injured. He's a fantastic player and would have been a good test of the scrum under Proudfoot.

by king_carlos Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:33 am

BamBam wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
BamBam wrote:I like that team on the whole. Definitely feels like it has a degree of flexibility in the backs, and I'm also a fan of Launchbury so hope the lineout does go well.

Hope Malins can get some time at FB, would like to see more of him, but disappointed Thorley doesn't look like he's in favour. With Watson injured again I want to see us develop another true wing to take over from May / Watson rather than shoe horning JJ in

In defence of shoehorning Joseph in they are missing another two specialist wings in Cokasinga and Nowell. Anyone who gets in is starting from way down the established pecking order with Watson, May and Daly all proven test wingers and long term squad options.

Not sure who out there is really standing up as someone who would break into that group with the potential to be much better short or long term. Being sixth choice winger hardly makes it controversial to be left out. Thorley did come on at wing against Italy too. Solomona I assume is going to remain an outsider after admitting he had a coke problem.

What happened to that Scottish sevens bloke who got in the world Cup squad?

But right now I don't have a big issue with JJ on the wing as a fill in, hes always had the pace for it.

Yeah that's fair when you consider Joe and Nowell - assume that means that Eddie knows he isn't going to deviate much from May / Watson / Joe / Nowell as his 4 with Daly as the emergency option, so Thorley etc all are on the outside. Bit of a shame given his form, I think he could be a real asset with his physical profile

I think Thorley is in the picture as a potential successor to May as an out and out speedster. The England kick chase game is much more potent with that pace on one wing.

I can't remember if I posted it here or on another thread but the younger backs getting chances are in the same positions or similar skill sets to the key backs from the 2019 RWC who might not make 2023.

Tuilagi - Lawrence
May - Thorley
Joseph - Marchant
Heinz - Robson

Outside of those Furbank and Malins have had caps but as we know, whilst Daly adds a lot to the side in attack from 15, we could do with a different tactical option at fullback.

by Gooseberry Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:39 am

Also if reports are to be believed from a week ago Thorley was training as a flanker not a wing. Given all the controversy over Willis getting ditched really would've been quite something had it been for him!

For me the big surprise in the 23 is ford being benched for Slade who was a bit underwhelming against Georgia. Arguments are endless about where Farrells best used of course but Im not sure Slade is one of the best centres England had available, and the cover for 10 is moot with ford back. Lawrence was pretty much guaranteed a spot with Jones stating he wanted one physical back in there.

Id also though England might favour a 6-2 bench for this using the emergency option of a forward lining up at 12/13 if there were injuries.

Always a bit of a worry when a side has the look of being picked to nullify the opposition as much as playing to their strengths.

Looking at the Ireland side they have been hit by a few injury withdrawals, but those coming in are generally big name experienced players. Huge test and opportunity for Byrne though. Sure theres a few Ireland fans who are happy to see the change forced, but England will be happy not to be facing a player who's put in some class performances against them over the years.

Wales really struggled with the set piece and giving away defensive penalties. The first part England should be much better equipped to match or better Ireland, and their territorial play makes it harder for teams to pressure their 22. Feel its a game England should win, but wouldn't be the first time Ireland pull one off if they do.

by king_carlos Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:48 am

Gooseberry wrote:Also if reports are to be believed from a week ago Thorley was training as a flanker not a wing. Given all the controversy over Willis getting ditched really would've been quite something had it been for him!

With my tin foil scrum cap on I think that's again Jones scheming about how to counter the Bok 'bombsquad' by having a full tight five on the bench.

If you have a winger (or other back) that can cover flanker in an emergency then losing a back row sub with versatile locks such as Itoje and Lawes could be less risky.

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
16.LCD 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Launchbury 20.Hill

If you get one back row injury then Itoje or Lawes move to blindside. If you get a second back row injury then Thorley is an emergency option.

A means of getting a whole tight five on the bench whilst still having three back subs.

(I did precursor this with 'tin foil scrum cap' so if you read this far you've only yourselves to blame)

by Gooseberry Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:58 am

king_carlos wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Also if reports are to be believed from a week ago Thorley was training as a flanker not a wing. Given all the controversy over Willis getting ditched really would've been quite something had it been for him!
With my tin foil rugby hat on I think that's again Jones scheming about how to counter the Bok 'bombsquad' by having a full tight five on the bench.

If you have a winger (or other back) that can cover flanker in an emergency then losing a back row sub with versatile locks such as Itoje and Lawes could be less risky.

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Curry 7.Underhill 8.Vunipola
16.LCD 17.Genge 18.Stuart 19.Launchbury 20.Hill

If you get one back row injury then Itoje or Lawes move to blindside. If you get a second back row injury then Thorley is an emergency option.

A means of getting a whole tight five on the bench whilst still having three back subs.

(I did precursor this with 'tin foil rugby hat' so if you've read this far you've only yourselves to blame)

Yeah reports and what Jones has said is that they've experimented both ways, forwards lining up as backs and vice versa. I do assume a fair bit of this is looking at in game workloads and the increasing importance of replacements. It might be a bit of a cliché but Englands outside backs really do spend a lot of the game standing around not doing a lot whereas our pack are running themselves ragged.

So more than just straight injury cover it gives the chance to swap out a relatively fresh player to flanker a give an 80 minute forward a less demanding period during the game.

Also the tactical options of being able to beef up or speed up the team as a whole, or just swap round where players line up for certain game situations and set plays.

All sounds great in theory but I'm glad they aren't rushing into this with tests till they've had time to bed it in in practise and really understand how its going to be used and have players comfortable with it. Good that Jones and co are looking to push the envelope a bit and take England up a level, but also has the potential to leave them looking a bit silly.

Course it might all just be Jones trolling and trying to cover up how utterly predictable England have been since adopting the aggressive kick chase as their go to response to getting the ball.

by king_carlos Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:11 am

Gooseberry wrote:Course it might all just be Jones trolling and trying to cover up how utterly predictable England have been since adopting the aggressive kick chase as their go to response to getting the ball.

There is that possibility it must be said...

The kick chase, territory game also raises the importance of the lineout in attack and defence which in turn makes the Bok tactic of having 2 locks on the bench so valuable. Given Jones went straight for Proudfoot when losing Borthwick and Hatley it wouldn't be a shock if England are looking to adopt some of his tactics from coaching the Boks forwards.

Having Snyman and Mostert on the bench obviously adds impact around the park but the set-piece in my opinion is where the biggest impact gets seen. There is just never any let up in their maul work.

In the back row meanwhile the England incumbents are players who's strength is in part their consistency over 80 minutes. Billy, Curry and Underhill are all players who will do the things they do well all game. All have weaknesses to their game (though Curry increasingly fewer weak spots) but the things they do well are very consistent. As such that reduces the impact back row subs usually have.

by lostinwales Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:13 am

May went on the flank in a scrum or 2 vs Italy when Hill was off. Sounds like a standard ploy for dealing with forward YC's

Big joe at 8 could be fun though

by king_carlos Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:21 am

lostinwales wrote:May went on the flank in a scrum or 2 vs Italy when Hill was off. Sounds like a standard ploy for dealing with forward YC's

Big joe at 8 could be fun though

A back packing down at flanker for a scrum is standard during YC periods to match numbers and not have the scrum imbalanced. Though you don't actually have to match numbers in the scrum if you are down to 14 men most sides will.

Thorley was reported to actually be running as a flanker in training games though rather than just packing down there for scrum practice. Which along with Earl training as a winger seems that Jones might be considering this stuff as a tactic to get more out of the bench.

by Recwatcher16 Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:11 am

That first XV have 640 caps but there are only a 107 on the bench with 69 being Ford, suggests there is player turnover within the squad slowly happening although there are some players missing through injury. When you look there is Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Lawes, Wilson, Tuilagi, Nowell, Watson, more than I realised.
That reserve front row will fancy their chances.

by king_carlos Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:44 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:That first XV have 640 caps but there are only a 107 on the bench with 69 being Ford, suggests there is player turnover within the squad slowly happening although there are some players missing through injury. When you look there is Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Lawes, Wilson, Tuilagi, Nowell, Watson, more than I realised.
That reserve front row will fancy their chances.

Kruis realistically as well. His contract in Japan is a one year deal, I'd be surprised if he doesn't return to the Premiership and come back into contention. He'll be 33 by the next RWC so easily young enough for a second row with a good injury record.

The 2019 RWC side was young so we should have a very experienced side in 2023.

by Kingshu Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:53 am

Don't know if anyone has mentioned it but at the minute being an Ulster fan watching Ireland, I now know what its like for Scottish fans with the Lions.

If Scotland has been runners up in the 6 nations and the 2nd best team two years running. Sad

No Ulster players in the starting XV?

by formerly known as Sam Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:59 am

Kingshu wrote:Don't know if anyone has mentioned it but at the minute being an Ulster fan watching Ireland, I now know what its like for Scottish fans with the Lions.

If Scotland has been runners up in the 6 nations and the 2nd best team two years running. No Ulster players in the starting XV?

Who would you have starting? I'm surprised Cooney hasn't been given more of a go after his form last season, unsure of his current form. Henderson and Stockdale have narrowly missed out.

by mikey_dragon Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:33 am

Ulster have some front row and back row players who could be in the Ireland 23. Outside Cooney then probably McLoskey, and they probably have a better 13 than Chris Farrell. Munster’s front row and reserve No.8 could be in the Ireland 23 as well.

by Kingshu Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:37 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Don't know if anyone has mentioned it but at the minute being an Ulster fan watching Ireland, I now know what its like for Scottish fans with the Lions.

If Scotland has been runners up in the 6 nations and the 2nd best team two years running. No Ulster players in the starting XV?

Who would you have starting? I'm surprised Cooney hasn't been given more of a go after his form last season, unsure of his current form. Henderson and Stockdale have narrowly missed out.

There are 5 Ulster players in the Ireland squad. Thats the smallest number of international call ups from any of the the Pro 14 teams, more Dragons players were called up to the Welsh squad, and Wales don't solely rely on the 4 regions they can also pick overseas players! Connacht have more players in the Ireland squad than Ulster. Think Scotland and Wales went with around 40 men squads Ireland about 34, so rather than replacing them in the squad and arguein I think more could have been called up to the squad

Cooney is the obvious one, since the new season started he's been back to his best, winning motm awards and stealing the show. Has played better and more consistent than JGP and should be starting.

McGrath, EoS and Moore deserve call ups.
McGrath or EoS on bench ahead of Byrne. Moore starting instead of Porter.

Think Herring should be first choice and Kelleher on bench to come on.

Henderson and stockdale and mentioned are close so is Burns.

Think McCloskey has been playing better than Farrell for a number of years and should really be the one starting, but we know he isnt rated for some reason by Farrell.

Why Keenan made the squad and has been starting instead of Lyttle, I think is solely down to the province they play for. Before the conclusion of the 6 Nations Keenan had played 20 games one of which was in the HCup, and scored 1 try. Lyttle had played 36 games, 4 of which were HCup and scored 13 tries. Full back wasnt really considered at that point, but Lyttle has played there too. I think if Keenan was playing for Ulster and Lyttle for Leinster, Lyttle would be picking up his 3rd cap. Or if looking for a fullback Lowery has played more games there 29 games 6 of which were HCup and has 4 tries.

by Gooseberry Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:02 am

king_carlos wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:That first XV have 640 caps but there are only a 107 on the bench with 69 being Ford, suggests there is player turnover within the squad slowly happening although there are some players missing through injury. When you look there is Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Lawes, Wilson, Tuilagi, Nowell, Watson, more than I realised.
That reserve front row will fancy their chances.
Kruis realistically as well. His contract in Japan is a one year deal, I'd be surprised if he doesn't return to the Premiership and come back into contention. He'll be 33 by the next RWC so easily young enough for a second row with a good injury record.

The 2019 RWC side was young so we should have a very experienced side in 2023.

Yeah its easy to think of some as these guys as nearing their sell by date, but even Ben Youngs is only 31. The pack was insanely young compared to what England would have traditionally taken to a world cup, people writing BVP off at 28 is a bit premature.

Theres been 8 new caps since the world cup and thats with the development tour and Barbarians games (although thats not capped tbf) taking place. Despite having a successful side Jones hasnt been afraid to bring new players into the group or get rid of the likes of Cole, Brown, Harley, Haskell and Robshaw before they were wanting to retire. Given England had 4 Lions class rows till Kruis left he's manged to cap a heck of a lot of second rows.

The only position that has seen conservative selections right through the Jones era is 10, I guess FB to some extent too. Theres two players knocking on the door pretty hard in Umaga and Simonds. Had the summer tour happened at least one of them would've played, I'm a little surprised that neither featured during the Italy/Georgia warm ups (albeit they were cup games).

I do though think it gets a bit much when theres calls to cap every player in the premiership, theres a lot to be said for team building and getting players used to a system and each other.

In less than 5 years Jones has given first caps to:

8 props
3 Hookers
4 locks
13 back row (not including Itoje who debuted as a flanker and including shields who debuted as a lock)
4 scrum halves (albeit one of them was 57 and should've retired by now)
1 FH (and that was Devoto who's really a centre)
6 centres (counting Daly)
4 wings
2 full backs (not counting Daly)

Hooker looks a little bare but both two main choices (George and LCD) were both very new players who'd only just broken into the England side a few months before Jones took over. Full backs he's used a lot of utility players to cover there rather than new players, but the past year does seem to have seen an acceptance that specialist full backs exist. If you ignore Heinz most of the players bought in have been under 24 rather than seasoned Premiership stalwarts who never quite cut it.

Those numbers perhaps also show the attrition rate that hits back rows. If I were a centre Id be very worried about this idea I should be training to cover flanker, get a good insurance policy!

by Geordie Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:16 am

Gooseberry wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Recwatcher16 wrote:That first XV have 640 caps but there are only a 107 on the bench with 69 being Ford, suggests there is player turnover within the squad slowly happening although there are some players missing through injury. When you look there is Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Lawes, Wilson, Tuilagi, Nowell, Watson, more than I realised.
That reserve front row will fancy their chances.
Kruis realistically as well. His contract in Japan is a one year deal, I'd be surprised if he doesn't return to the Premiership and come back into contention. He'll be 33 by the next RWC so easily young enough for a second row with a good injury record.

The 2019 RWC side was young so we should have a very experienced side in 2023.

Yeah its easy to think of some as these guys as nearing their sell by date, but even Ben Youngs is only 31. The pack was insanely young compared to what England would have traditionally taken to a world cup, people writing BVP off at 28 is a bit premature.

Theres been 8 new caps since the world cup and thats with the development tour and Barbarians games (although thats not capped tbf) taking place. Despite having a successful side Jones hasnt been afraid to bring new players into the group or get rid of the likes of Cole, Brown, Harley, Haskell and Robshaw before they were wanting to retire. Given England had 4 Lions class rows till Kruis left he's manged to cap a heck of a lot of second rows.

The only position that has seen conservative selections right through the Jones era is 10, I guess FB to some extent too. Theres two players knocking on the door pretty hard in Umaga and Simonds. Had the summer tour happened at least one of them would've played, I'm a little surprised that neither featured during the Italy/Georgia warm ups (albeit they were cup games).

I do though think it gets a bit much when theres calls to cap every player in the premiership, theres a lot to be said for team building and getting players used to a system and each other.

In less than 5 years Jones has given first caps to:

8 props
3 Hookers
4 locks
13 back row (not including Itoje who debuted as a flanker and including shields who debuted as a lock)
4 scrum halves (albeit one of them was 57 and should've retired by now)
1 FH (and that was Devoto who's really a centre)
6 centres (counting Daly)
4 wings
2 full backs (not counting Daly)

Hooker looks a little bare but both two main choices (George and LCD) were both very new players who'd only just broken into the England side a few months before Jones took over. Full backs he's used a lot of utility players to cover there rather than new players, but the past year does seem to have seen an acceptance that specialist full backs exist. If you ignore Heinz most of the players bought in have been under 24 rather than seasoned Premiership stalwarts who never quite cut it.

Those numbers perhaps also show the attrition rate that hits back rows. If I were a centre Id be very worried about this idea I should be training to cover flanker, get a good insurance policy!

I would hope hes keeping the eye on Marcus Smith aswell so 3 knocking on the door.

by Guest Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:54 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I must admit i dont get dropping Willis. Unless its injury possibly why he went off Early v Georgia?

Im a big Earl fan...but i think Willis showed more in that game that Earl has in a few appearances.

WIllis is not just a turnover man. Hes a big strong guy, tackles hard, carries hard. Surely thats the type of player you want v Ireland.

It was Georgia so does that performance really mean a great deal?

Curry and Underhill have tortured Ireland in recent times with their dominant tackling so it makes sense Jones is reverting to type. Earl and Ludlam are very much his go to bench guys; i'd expect Willis to start more than the pair but that's a different thing altogether.

Well in the fact that his performance from what hes been doing for Wasps, simply continued on for a different team against a team with a previously respected pack. That would suggest he would warrant another game v a tougher nation to see if he can continue on again.

The moment the form of Curry or Underhill drops then Willis may get a prolonged chance in the side but until then he's not getting in the side when everyone is fit. Earl and Ludlam are proven off the bench late in games too. I realise that Willis is the in guy at the moment but it's hardly surprising or controversial that he hasn't been selected. Would he have been in the wider squad at all if Wilson was fit?

Probably. Wilson is 31 he isn't going to make the next world cup. England will have to move on from him sooner rather than later. Willis has a lot of similar attributes and is in his early 20s. It feels like a natural progression.

It's too early to be binning players like Wilson completely. Still 3 years until the next RWC. He'll pick up another 5-10 caps over that period in my opinion as he brings through other players when Lions tours, bin juice teams etc have to play. Good older head among the younger boys. Also keeps the up and comers hungry.

by Guest Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:59 am

I also stand by my point that Tagdh Beirne should have stayed at the Scarlets and played for Wales on residency. He'd be happier and he'd have a better career.

He would have had to change his name so we could spell it, though.

by Guest Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:24 am

England by 15.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:28 pm

Some mind games from Jones. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/nov/19/eddie-jones-commences-the-mind-games-for-englands-visit-from-ireland

Porter had the welsh on toast so not surprised he wants to try anything he can to stop him doing the same against our weakest scrummager.

Jonny hill missed out last week due to a bang to the head according to this.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:52 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I must admit i dont get dropping Willis. Unless its injury possibly why he went off Early v Georgia?

Im a big Earl fan...but i think Willis showed more in that game that Earl has in a few appearances.

WIllis is not just a turnover man. Hes a big strong guy, tackles hard, carries hard. Surely thats the type of player you want v Ireland.

It was Georgia so does that performance really mean a great deal?

Curry and Underhill have tortured Ireland in recent times with their dominant tackling so it makes sense Jones is reverting to type. Earl and Ludlam are very much his go to bench guys; i'd expect Willis to start more than the pair but that's a different thing altogether.

Well in the fact that his performance from what hes been doing for Wasps, simply continued on for a different team against a team with a previously respected pack. That would suggest he would warrant another game v a tougher nation to see if he can continue on again.

The moment the form of Curry or Underhill drops then Willis may get a prolonged chance in the side but until then he's not getting in the side when everyone is fit. Earl and Ludlam are proven off the bench late in games too. I realise that Willis is the in guy at the moment but it's hardly surprising or controversial that he hasn't been selected. Would he have been in the wider squad at all if Wilson was fit?

Probably. Wilson is 31 he isn't going to make the next world cup. England will have to move on from him sooner rather than later. Willis has a lot of similar attributes and is in his early 20s. It feels like a natural progression.

It's too early to be binning players like Wilson completely. Still 3 years until the next RWC. He'll pick up another 5-10 caps over that period in my opinion as he brings through other players when Lions tours, bin juice teams etc have to play. Good older head among the younger boys. Also keeps the up and comers hungry.

Given the mass of talent England have in the backrow I'm not sure they do need him. A lot of the younger lads have a lot of caps. Though I agree he could come in as Lions cover but that would be his final international hurragh. Our options are so deep we can name two perfectly good backrows without him;

6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Vunipola

6. Willis
7.Ludlam
8. Dombrandt

That's not even bringing in Hill.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:57 pm

And that's forgetting Earl.

by Soul Requiem Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:15 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I must admit i dont get dropping Willis. Unless its injury possibly why he went off Early v Georgia?

Im a big Earl fan...but i think Willis showed more in that game that Earl has in a few appearances.

WIllis is not just a turnover man. Hes a big strong guy, tackles hard, carries hard. Surely thats the type of player you want v Ireland.

It was Georgia so does that performance really mean a great deal?

Curry and Underhill have tortured Ireland in recent times with their dominant tackling so it makes sense Jones is reverting to type. Earl and Ludlam are very much his go to bench guys; i'd expect Willis to start more than the pair but that's a different thing altogether.

Well in the fact that his performance from what hes been doing for Wasps, simply continued on for a different team against a team with a previously respected pack. That would suggest he would warrant another game v a tougher nation to see if he can continue on again.

The moment the form of Curry or Underhill drops then Willis may get a prolonged chance in the side but until then he's not getting in the side when everyone is fit. Earl and Ludlam are proven off the bench late in games too. I realise that Willis is the in guy at the moment but it's hardly surprising or controversial that he hasn't been selected. Would he have been in the wider squad at all if Wilson was fit?

Probably. Wilson is 31 he isn't going to make the next world cup. England will have to move on from him sooner rather than later. Willis has a lot of similar attributes and is in his early 20s. It feels like a natural progression.

It's too early to be binning players like Wilson completely. Still 3 years until the next RWC. He'll pick up another 5-10 caps over that period in my opinion as he brings through other players when Lions tours, bin juice teams etc have to play. Good older head among the younger boys. Also keeps the up and comers hungry.

Given the mass of talent England have in the backrow I'm not sure they do need him. A lot of the younger lads have a lot of caps. Though I agree he could come in as Lions cover but that would be his final international hurragh. Our options are so deep we can name two perfectly good backrows without him;

6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Vunipola

6. Willis
7.Ludlam
8. Dombrandt

That's not even bringing in Hill.

I'd rather Wilson at 8 than Dombrandt, he's deceptively quick and fits the gameplan for the back row perfectly.

by Gooseberry Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:20 pm

Is Shields still alive? There would be no complaints to see otherCurry and Simmonds in the mix too. Its not to say Wilson who was never a regular wont ever be selected again, just it shouldnt be any great surprise if he isnt.

Also same re: Willis, arguably he was lucky to get a chance with all the injuries even if it was well deserved and he looks the part. The competition is insane, but then so is the attrition rate. So any of these guys could be getting in any future squad.

by BamBam Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Given the mass of talent England have in the backrow I'm not sure they do need him. A lot of the younger lads have a lot of caps. Though I agree he could come in as Lions cover but that would be his final international hurragh. Our options are so deep we can name two perfectly good backrows without him;

6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Vunipola

6. Willis
7.Ludlam
8. Dombrandt

That's not even bringing in Hill.

I like all those players in the second back row (Earl included) as options. But if we had a knockout game or 6N decider tomorrow, I think I'd want Wilson on the bench over any of the youngsters as the back up. Never let us down, fits in all 3 back row positions and would make a good/decent combination with any 2 of the 3 starting back rowers.

Hopefully one of the youngsters can show they can step up consistently and earn that trust, and I think they will

by Gooseberry Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:33 pm

Why bother with Wilson on the bench if Itoje and May can cover all the back row options? Whistle

Pretty sure Curry has shown that he can step up consistently, he's got 6 more caps than Wilson (in the same time period) and all but 1 as a starter.

by BamBam Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:47 pm

I wasn't including Curry! Was Wilson vs Willis/Ludlam/Dombrandt/Hill if the big game was tomorrow

by Gooseberry Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:55 pm

Yeah fair enough. I dont think anyone would have a problem at all with Wilson being picked again if he comes back at full tilt from injury, but hes never been more than a bit part player in the grand scheme of things for England. Shields is another who can play across the backrow and offers a significant level of club experience, probably wouldve got places ahead of Wilson at the world cup had he not been injured and again would probably be in the training squad had he not been inured.

The same logic that can be applied to the youngsters missing out can also be applied to the experienced guys. Theres more viable options than squad spots. Everyone has their favourites but trying to second guess Jones' mind and who will be fit any given week is a minefield.

Think we are all essentially arguing the same point. Cant write anyone off, or be outraged if they arent picked.

by cb Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:15 pm

Wilson may or may not have a place but a third back row could be

Earl, Simmonds, Hill

by No 7&1/2 Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:26 pm

4th is still pretty good.
Shields wilson Mercer.

by Gooseberry Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:4th is still pretty good.
Shields wilson Mercer.

5th choice of Lawes, Armand, Itoje

6th Choice May Lawrence Thorley

7th choice Hughes Harrison Wood

by No 7&1/2 Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:44 pm

I forgot Hughes. Hes had a great year at Bristol.

by Gooseberry Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I forgot Hughes. Hes had a great year at Bristol.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=matches;position_subcategory=2;spanmin1=01+jan+2016;spanval1=span;team=1;template=results;type=player

According to this theres been 30 players appear as a loose forward under Jones. 4 of them primarily locks, a hooker, and a back.

Other still active actual back row we forgot about ... Kvesic who seems to be pop up as a squad member every two years.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:20 pm

Ben Curry should not be ignored either.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:51 pm

People get very critical of Eddie and his selections. In his 5 years in charge (during which we have won a Grand Slam + two other 6Ns titles, reached a WC final, equalled the record for consecutive wins, wona series 3-0 in Australia, won a test in South Africa and beaten NZ at a World Cup) he has shown that in selection:

1) He is his own man. He is accused of ignoring players being put forward by the media almost to spite them. This is garbage, he just sees things the way he does and if that does not agree with others it is merely a viewpoint - and with his success with England he has earned a lot of leeway to make his choices.

2) He picks players he thinks are ready to play test match rugby. In squads he looks at lots of players, and often throws curve balls, but when it comes to match day 23 he does not take many risks.

3) Age is irrelevant to him. If you are good enough you are both old enough and young enough. The England team in the WC final was, I believe, the youngest ever to play in a final.

4) He is both loyal and ruthless. If you are performing for him he will keep picking you despite what fans and media think (Dylan Hartley, Ben Youngs) but as soon as he thinks there are better guys he will switch and not look back (Hartley, Robshaw, Brown, Care).

by asoreleftshoulder Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:48 pm

rugby racing and beer wrote:I also stand by my point that Tagdh Beirne should have stayed at the Scarlets and played for Wales on residency. He'd be happier and he'd have a better career.

He would have had to change his name so we could spell it, though.

I dunno,Pivac said at the Scarlets that he didn't think Beirne was big enough to be an international 2nd row.Would he get a place at 6 for Wales?

by Guest Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some mind games from Jones. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/nov/19/eddie-jones-commences-the-mind-games-for-englands-visit-from-ireland

Porter had the welsh on toast so not surprised he wants to try anything he can to stop him doing the same against our weakest scrummager.

Jonny hill missed out last week due to a bang to the head according to this.

It was obvious to see against Wyn Jones. I said as much on the match thread. He keeps his body straight but is too low and drops the scrum, forcing what looks like a 'hinge' when in reality he's pulling down. His knee hits the floor before the other prop collapses.

by No 7&1/2 Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:46 am

LondonTiger wrote:People get very critical of Eddie and his selections. In his 5 years in charge (during which we have won a Grand Slam + two other 6Ns titles, reached a WC final, equalled the record for consecutive wins, wona series 3-0 in Australia, won a test in South Africa and beaten NZ at a World Cup) he has shown that in selection:

1) He is his own man. He is accused of ignoring players being put forward by the media almost to spite them. This is garbage, he just sees things the way he does and if that does not agree with others it is merely a viewpoint - and with his success with England he has earned a lot of leeway to make his choices.

2) He picks players he thinks are ready to play test match rugby. In squads he looks at lots of players, and often throws curve balls, but when it comes to match day 23 he does not take many risks.

3) Age is irrelevant to him. If you are good enough you are both old enough and young enough. The England team in the WC final was, I believe, the youngest ever to play in a final.

4) He is both loyal and ruthless. If you are performing for him he will keep picking you despite what fans and media think (Dylan Hartley, Ben Youngs) but as soon as he thinks there are better guys he will switch and not look back (Hartley, Robshaw, Brown, Care).

Yeah but it's also a forum. It gets boring when we just nod along with eddie and not shout stop kicking the bloody ball when watching!

by Guest Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:00 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:I also stand by my point that Tagdh Beirne should have stayed at the Scarlets and played for Wales on residency. He'd be happier and he'd have a better career.

He would have had to change his name so we could spell it, though.

I dunno,Pivac said at the Scarlets that he didn't think Beirne was big enough to be an international 2nd row.Would he get a place at 6 for Wales?

Yes, that was what I was thinking of, sort of a marauding #20 who could fill in at lock or back row from the bench, or start in either position depending on the opposition (for instance, lock v Scotland, Fiji; 6 v England, France).

My suggestion is of course a bit tongue in cheek but I do think his talent has been lost in Ireland - it shows how some players clearly aren't appreciated in certain areas. Partly it's a depth matter - Henderson is a fine player, for instance, kept out of the team for years by other players. You look at some players and they wouldn't get in other countries' teams, it's just the way it goes. Ben Youngs wouldn't get in the Welsh squad, Jake Ball would be nowhere near the England squad, Keith Earls probably wouldn't get in the Scotland squad, and Jonny Gray wouldn't get near the Ireland team. Yet these players are all important or valuable to their national teams. And I think Beirne, clearly, was hugely appreciated in Wales and would have been for the national team as well - he's basically the ideal Welsh player, more Welsh than some of the Welsh boys. Wheras in Ireland, they don't rate his ability, they ask him to play the Munster way, and he hasn't really shown what he can do. It's not just an Ireland issue ofc although I think they are the worst offenders, Wales had the same issue with Tipuric for years under Gatland. It's just a shame to see talented players go unappreciated. We tend to focus on backs - Zebo, Sinbad for England etc. - but not in the forwards because they're so rare. No doubt the Scarlets would have Beirne back in a heartbeat.

by Guest Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:04 am

I like Joseph on the wing. Good call. I had an inkling a few years ago he might play there but it's also on of those where you don't just want to stick the pacey option on the wing for the sake of it. I also don't know how good he is under the high ball etc. but in attack, it definitely makes sense. Good player.

by Gooseberry Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:10 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:People get very critical of Eddie and his selections. In his 5 years in charge (during which we have won a Grand Slam + two other 6Ns titles, reached a WC final, equalled the record for consecutive wins, wona series 3-0 in Australia, won a test in South Africa and beaten NZ at a World Cup) he has shown that in selection:

1) He is his own man. He is accused of ignoring players being put forward by the media almost to spite them. This is garbage, he just sees things the way he does and if that does not agree with others it is merely a viewpoint - and with his success with England he has earned a lot of leeway to make his choices.

2) He picks players he thinks are ready to play test match rugby. In squads he looks at lots of players, and often throws curve balls, but when it comes to match day 23 he does not take many risks.

3) Age is irrelevant to him. If you are good enough you are both old enough and young enough. The England team in the WC final was, I believe, the youngest ever to play in a final.

4) He is both loyal and ruthless. If you are performing for him he will keep picking you despite what fans and media think (Dylan Hartley, Ben Youngs) but as soon as he thinks there are better guys he will switch and not look back (Hartley, Robshaw, Brown, Care).

Yeah but it's also a forum. It gets boring when we just nod along with eddie and not shout stop kicking the bloody ball when watching!

I bet Eddie Jones is the kind of guy who sits at home liking his own posts just to encourage others to dislike them. Some people just love the drama.

by No 7&1/2 Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:19 am

Gooseberry wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:People get very critical of Eddie and his selections. In his 5 years in charge (during which we have won a Grand Slam + two other 6Ns titles, reached a WC final, equalled the record for consecutive wins, wona series 3-0 in Australia, won a test in South Africa and beaten NZ at a World Cup) he has shown that in selection:

1) He is his own man. He is accused of ignoring players being put forward by the media almost to spite them. This is garbage, he just sees things the way he does and if that does not agree with others it is merely a viewpoint - and with his success with England he has earned a lot of leeway to make his choices.

2) He picks players he thinks are ready to play test match rugby. In squads he looks at lots of players, and often throws curve balls, but when it comes to match day 23 he does not take many risks.

3) Age is irrelevant to him. If you are good enough you are both old enough and young enough. The England team in the WC final was, I believe, the youngest ever to play in a final.

4) He is both loyal and ruthless. If you are performing for him he will keep picking you despite what fans and media think (Dylan Hartley, Ben Youngs) but as soon as he thinks there are better guys he will switch and not look back (Hartley, Robshaw, Brown, Care).

Yeah but it's also a forum. It gets boring when we just nod along with eddie and not shout stop kicking the bloody ball when watching!

I bet Eddie Jones is the kind of guy who sits at home liking his own posts just to encourage others to dislike them. Some people just love the drama.

No one likes their own posts. Not even Aussies.

by asoreleftshoulder Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:23 am

rugby racing and beer wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
rugby racing and beer wrote:I also stand by my point that Tagdh Beirne should have stayed at the Scarlets and played for Wales on residency. He'd be happier and he'd have a better career.

He would have had to change his name so we could spell it, though.

Yeah I thought he should really have gone to Ulster,they need top quality forwards more and he would have been able to move around the pack like he did at Scarlets. He's an ideal sub ,brings game changing turnover and running ability plus the utility to cover several positions.
He still has a lot to offer Ireland but it looks like Farrell is really looking to have a lot of powerful athletes on the field.

I dunno,Pivac said at the Scarlets that he didn't think Beirne was big enough to be an international 2nd row.Would he get a place at 6 for Wales?

Yes, that was what I was thinking of, sort of a marauding #20 who could fill in at lock or back row from the bench, or start in either position depending on the opposition (for instance, lock v Scotland, Fiji; 6 v England, France).

My suggestion is of course a bit tongue in cheek but I do think his talent has been lost in Ireland - it shows how some players clearly aren't appreciated in certain areas. Partly it's a depth matter - Henderson is a fine player, for instance, kept out of the team for years by other players. You look at some players and they wouldn't get in other countries' teams, it's just the way it goes. Ben Youngs wouldn't get in the Welsh squad, Jake Ball would be nowhere near the England squad, Keith Earls probably wouldn't get in the Scotland squad, and Jonny Gray wouldn't get near the Ireland team. Yet these players are all important or valuable to their national teams. And I think Beirne, clearly, was hugely appreciated in Wales and would have been for the national team as well - he's basically the ideal Welsh player, more Welsh than some of the Welsh boys. Wheras in Ireland, they don't rate his ability, they ask him to play the Munster way, and he hasn't really shown what he can do. It's not just an Ireland issue ofc although I think they are the worst offenders, Wales had the same issue with Tipuric for years under Gatland. It's just a shame to see talented players go unappreciated. We tend to focus on backs - Zebo, Sinbad for England etc. - but not in the forwards because they're so rare. No doubt the Scarlets would have Beirne back in a heartbeat.

by nlpnlp Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:55 am

LondonTiger wrote:People get very critical of Eddie and his selections. In his 5 years in charge (during which we have won a Grand Slam + two other 6Ns titles, reached a WC final, equalled the record for consecutive wins, wona series 3-0 in Australia, won a test in South Africa and beaten NZ at a World Cup) he has shown that in selection:

1) He is his own man. He is accused of ignoring players being put forward by the media almost to spite them. This is garbage, he just sees things the way he does and if that does not agree with others it is merely a viewpoint - and with his success with England he has earned a lot of leeway to make his choices.

2) He picks players he thinks are ready to play test match rugby. In squads he looks at lots of players, and often throws curve balls, but when it comes to match day 23 he does not take many risks.

3) Age is irrelevant to him. If you are good enough you are both old enough and young enough. The England team in the WC final was, I believe, the youngest ever to play in a final.

4) He is both loyal and ruthless. If you are performing for him he will keep picking you despite what fans and media think (Dylan Hartley, Ben Youngs) but as soon as he thinks there are better guys he will switch and not look back (Hartley, Robshaw, Brown, Care).

If you look at the record it looks good, but we threw away 2 grand slam opportunities with poor displays against Ireland in 2017 and France in 2020. We lost the world cup in 2019 badly against an average South Africa team that lost in the group stage and struggled to get past Japan and Scotland.

You can see Jones as being his own man with his selections, but does picking a 29 year old playing out of position on the wing make more sense than picking the in form 24 year old specialist winger who was the league’s most prolific try scorer last season? Curry wouldn’t get in the Sale team ahead of Jono Ross at 6 or Dan Du Preez at 8 yet is continually picked there for England. Not having a backup specialist no 8 when your first choice has had lots of injury problems, admitted his ‘head was in the clouds’ at the world cup and is giving diminishing returns makes no sense particularly as you have the European player of the season aged 26 available. In his limited opportunities Simmonds hasn’t let England down. His own man selections at no 9 led to the ridiculous position of Ben Spencer flying out to go straight into a world cup final with very little England experience behind him. And Spencer has now been rewarded for leaving the comfort of Saracens and being the form 9 in the league by not getting into the England squad.

I wouldn’t mind the fact we play a fairly stolid game plan – kick, chase and put the opposition under pressure – if we did it well. The Georgia display was a typical got the job done, whilst performing poorly. Can you point to any progression or improvement since the display against New Zealand in the world cup? I know I am a glass half empty rather than a glass half full person, but with Jones I just get the feeling it is all the Emperors New Cloths and sooner or later someone will spot he hasn't done that well with the resources that he has got.

by No 7&1/2 Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:59 am

I can agree with alot (some hyperbole) of that but Tom.Curry walks into any side in the league. Whether he wears 6 or 7 on his back doesnt matter.

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