"Game of the Year" - England vs Ireland - ANC round 2

First topic message reminder :

Eddie Jones thought he'd ramp up the pressure on his own team in advance of England playing Ireland next weekend in the ANC by declaring it the game of the year.  Nobody took him too seriously but he does like to give the media a soundbite or two to keep them happy.  No doubt, he'll be saying the same thing when his team travel across the country to play Wales.   And, in playing the winners of Pool B in the final game of this Autumn Nations Cup.

The latest rugby broadcaster, Amazon Prime, has already scheduled the England playoff final match on its own at Sunday lunchtime on 6 Dec in Twickenham.  They know which side their financial bread is buttered, even if they don't know where Northern Ireland is.

Before then, however, England have a little job to do.  They played against and with Georgia at the weekend, with the Georgians supposed ace in the scrum turning out to be less than anticipated.    Job done and 5 points in the bank.  

Andy Farrell is the one with more work to do with his team being royally spanked in the last few tests against England.   the English have the pack-power to put paid to Ireland before a pass even reaches their backline.   So can Farrell change that with selection policy or different game plan.  

Against Wales, Ireland were missing normal first-teamers Furlong, Henderson, Leavy, Stander, Aki, Ringrose, Stockdale and Larmour.   They weren't missed.   Ireland  can expect to have Stander and Aki available for Twickenham and assuming the medical illnesses that prevented Stockdale and Henderson from playing against Wales will have abated in time to allow them join the squad.

Whilst it might seem obvious that Henderson would start if available, Quinn Roux, probably for the first time since he arrived on a trial year at Leinster in 2012, managed to demonstrate to a lot of Irish fans that he might actually be useful and worth selecting.  Originally picked by Schmidt specifically as a tighthead lock on their SA tour in 2016, Roux had only gained a dozen caps before starting against Wales.   He provided the needed ballast for Porter at scrum time, and made himself a nuisance in the loose and useful in carrying including getting the first try.    Does he get to start again and displace the incumbent?

Conor Murray might be another to look to his laurels when he saw the pace that Jamison Gibson Park instilled into proceedings right from kick-off to the final whilst.   Andy Farrell might see him as a useful 9/10 to bring off the bench.

Elsewhere, Stockdale will likely be brought back in, although Farrell might prefer him on the wing with Keenan seeming more assured at full-back.

And in midfield, is Aki an automatic pick at 12 with either Henshaw (27) or Chris Farrell (27) as his partner?   Aki will be nearing 31 at end of next Six Nations - is he likely to be first pick when he's 33.5 years of age by the time of RWC 2023?  Or does Farrell need to make more room/time for others including Ringrose, McCloskey, and possibly 1 or 2 others?

Caelan Doris is making the No 8 position his own with each passing game, but it may be too early to omit Stander from the backrow equation.   Does POM get dropped to the bench again to make way?

Eddie Jones will already be plotting another Ireland downfall.   Will he go for pack power again combined with the accurate England kicking game, or does he have another few tricks up his sleeve?

Plenty to chat about, particularly once the team announcements come in.

Ireland Match Day 23
H Keenan; K Earls, C Farrell, B Aki, J Lowe; R Byrne, J Gibson-Park; C Healy, R Kelleher, A Porter; Q Roux, J Ryan (capt); CJ Stander, P O'Mahony, C Doris.
Reps: R Herring, E Byrne, F Bealham, I Henderson, W Connors, C Murray, B Burns, J Stockdale

England Squad
Elliot Daly Owen Farrell George Ford Jonathan Joseph Ollie Lawrence Max Malins Jonny MayDan Robson Henry Slade Ollie Thorley Ben Youngs
Tom Curry Tom Dunn Ben Earl Ellis Genge Jamie George Jonny Hill Maro Itoje Joe Launchbury Lewis Ludlam Kyle Sinckler Will Stuart Sam Underhill Billy Vunipola Mako Vunipola

Yeh the hold up. It was instantaneous though, slow motion let Launchbury off the hook. Farrell was about to dot down. But like I said they didn’t deserve it. They have been awful.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Robson all at sea there.

I was thinking that tbh.

England definitely need a scrum-half to challenge Youngs but I've never been convinced that Robson is the man. He reminds me a lot of Care for England.

I really like the look of Mitchell though. He has very good basics for a scrum-half with England's game plan.

Heuer27 wrote:Yeh the hold up. It was instantaneous though, slow motion let Launchbury off the hook. Farrell was about to dot down. But like I said they didn’t deserve it. They have been awful.

Yeah no offside there as it cant be.

Good to get the win and an absolutely brutal forward performance but that dominance can definitely be converted into tries more often.

Lots of positives again from the game. Like the look of Lawrence still so hope he gets the chance to start again. With ford coming on youd expect either him or slade will be dropped next week.

king_carlos wrote:Good to get the win and an absolutely brutal forward performance but that dominance can definitely be converted into tries more often.

2nd half went a bit flat. Ireland kept the ball and did more with it. Deserved try, but England just shut down.

England subs fairly quiet - apart from Earl and Genge

Solid win from England. Irish fans must be disappointed with how their team are doing. Do you think Farrell can pull it back for next years six nations?

I think Ireland have the players to be much more competitive than that. The physicality was there but where is the creativity? England defended well but they had it pretty easy at times to be honest. And you saw what happened when Ireland chipped it over the top, instant reward.

Good win England

Dominated them really, despite a bit of a come back in the second half, but game well gone by then.

England still the side to beat in the NH

246 tackles. Feck.

Good to see Eddie getting to know what Dunn can do, 29 secs what is the point.

So POM wasn’t great then.

mikey_dragon wrote:So POM wasn’t great then.

Only Ryan stood up really. Doris a bit.

Great defensive performance...but we still only won by 11 points ...something to consider / address

GeordieFalcon wrote:Great defensive performance...but we still only won by 11 points ...something to consider / address

Defence wins games. Gatland knew it.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Great defensive performance...but we still only won by 11 points ...something to consider / address

Hate to labour the point but if anyone does rewatch this game look at the delivery from rucks. Very few go to where farrell wants. Under pressure then the whole backline end up shipping.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Great defensive performance...but we still only won by 11 points ...something to consider / address

It wouldn’t have made a difference to the group obviously, but I do feel like England should’ve got a BP win after the early score they built too.

I just feel if we are as physically dominant and defensively dominant as we seemed.. we should be putting more dominance on the scoreboard...

I agree. I thought that this was a bit of a missed opportunity. England looked so comfortable for such large sections of it that they didn't really get out of second gear. I would like to have seen something more from them,they seemed to be very much going through he motions. Which of course, should concern Ireland greatly.

England dominated too many facets of the game to give Ireland a chance. The tackle rate was off scale, was it 5 players 20+ incl both Vunipolas, neither look like they are fit, but that work rate says it all.

Earl, set a new record |I think for the number of tackles in the first 5 minutes of coming on, each harder than the last. Despite Underhill having a great game, we lost nothing when Earl came on and gained more speed.

I would like to see Simmons given a go though, as good as BV is at what he does, Simmons also has a high work rate and his pace would allow England to bring the backs into more space.

Slade started to show what he could do at 12 with ball in hand, or actually ball leaving hands.

Two problems for me though, Ben Youngs delivery, still poor. Having said that his defensive positioning would have probably stopped the Irish try.

Daly under the high ball, I don't think he caught one that was contested. Malins didn't look great either although he only had 10 minutes.

Positives, the entire pack.
Negatives, Youngs passing and Daly's catching.

Wales will not be looking forward to next week,

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just feel if we are as physically dominant and defensively dominant as we seemed.. we should be putting more dominance on the scoreboard...

Agreed, there's plenty more levels for this English side to reach before we get to 2023. Hopefully we'll see Ford back at 10 before too long.

How did Itoje win mom. There were definitely more dominant performances then his. You could have picked any one of the back row for me. They were awesome . Earl is going to be a stand out if given a run of games. From having very few, a couple of years ago England now have formidable back row options in all positions. If anything you could say Billy looks a bit off the pace compared to his contemporaries.

great game England's defence pretty solid. Great try by Stockdale for Ireland i did wander if he was off side at first. but after the replay it showed he wasn't.

It make's you think that if Ireland has started with Billy burns and Stockdale it might of been a closer  game, Very surprised England idd not get any yellow cards for the amount of penalties.

Regards Ben youngs/Dan Robson i do think England need to look for another 9 and very soon. Youngs wont last for ever and Robson showed he is not good enough as a replacement.

Heuer27 wrote:How did Itoje win mom. There were definitely more dominant performances then his. You could have picked any one of the back row for me. They were awesome . Earl is going to be a stand out if given a run of games. From having very few, a couple of years ago England now have formidable back row options in all positions. If anything you could say Billy looks a bit off the pace compared to his contemporaries.

I still think you need some bulk in there through...and Billy gives you that. If not him your looking st Donbrandt or Ted Hill..

majesticimperialman wrote:great game England's defence pretty solid. Great try by Stockdale for Ireland i did wander if he was off side at first. but after the replay it showed he wasn't.

It make's you think that if Ireland has started with Billy burns and Stockdale it might of been a closer  game, Very surprised England idd not get any yellow cards for the amount of penalties.

Regards Ben youngs/Dan Robson i do think England need to look for another 9 and very soon. Youngs wont last for ever and Robson showed he is not good enough as a replacement.

Pen count was about the same for both sides ...

Heaf wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:great game England's defence pretty solid. Great try by Stockdale for Ireland i did wander if he was off side at first. but after the replay it showed he wasn't.

It make's you think that if Ireland has started with Billy burns and Stockdale it might of been a closer  game, Very surprised England idd not get any yellow cards for the amount of penalties.

Regards Ben youngs/Dan Robson i do think England need to look for another 9 and very soon. Youngs wont last for ever and Robson showed he is not good enough as a replacement.

Pen count was about the same for both sides ...

Yes. Those kinds of YC only come from consistent penalties in the 22, often when one side is on top and the other are having to give the penalties to stop the first from scoring. That didn't happen even when Ireland were having their purple patch.

Like everyone else I'd like to see other players tested in the back row but today I think we saw why those three are the first choice. Billy wasn't amazing in attack and we may have to rethink that but in defense he was very good. Underhill and Curry were insanely good.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Robson all at sea there.

I was thinking that tbh.

England definitely need a scrum-half to challenge Youngs but I've never been convinced that Robson is the man. He reminds me a lot of Care for England.

I really like the look of Mitchell though. He has very good basics for a scrum-half with England's game plan.

Biggest issue with Robson, for me at least, was just how long it was taking him to get to the breakdown. With the game plan England have adopted I am surprised Spencer is not involved, but in Eddie we trust I guess.

As an aside Leicester had a young guy debuting at 9 tiday who definitely had something about him. Scored a try, showed good skills and a clear head. Maybe one to watch?

Re. the man of the match, I’d agree with Itoje. All the forwards played well but Itoje was immense. Line-out steals, turnovers and just a nuisance as always. He’s the best in the world. In any position at the moment.

As a positive the 12, 13 axis looked alot better this week against quality opposition. I though aki was going to flatten sladey but Ireland kept at bay until burns came on and instantly looked better than Byrne. Some of our hits on Ireland literally knocked them for six. Not sure pom remembers much of the second half as got clattered by Billy. Good physical game enjoyed it.

I thought 1-8, 17-20, the forwards were outstanding. From Curry's turnover penalty in the first minute through to Earl at the end. I would not like to rate any above 5he rest.

So for me the point of difference was Jonny May. His kick chase all game was outstanding, his defence doughty and of course two tries. He has developed (since the broken nose cost us a GS of course) into an outstanding all round winger.

England positives:
Immense defence and physicality
Great set piece
Itoje a proper nuisance and caused Ireland lots of problems
Curry and Underhill superb
May's two tries simply incredible

England negatives:
2nd half switch off
The tries were very well taken by May but overall England offered very very little in attack
We are fairly boring to watch (except May) and with our defence so strong I cannot see that changing. Kick and then kick some more. When someone can stand up to us, like SA, we are in trouble.

But I am sure Wales would love our recent record, but I would like to see a bit more. High standards and all that. But the physicality was immense today and must be a nightmare to play against.

And Youngs passing was abysmal. So many fired at Farrell's shoulder halting any momentum

Yeah his fragile snout is still a weakness. How near do people think hes going to get to underwoods record. Hes had a quiet 2020 from his previous standard before this game. The nearest current challenger to his left wing berth for england is probably cokanasiga or daly who confirms game after game hes not a full back. Looks well set bar injury for at least another couple of years.

Strange game for me.
When your forwards are so dominant, why is it not spread out to the pace and skills of your backs, rather than kick the ball back to the opposition?

That Irish team looked nervous from the start and their back row are good players but the combination got found out, their midfield was predictably toothless in attack and the back three vulnerable in defence. I was surprised their lineout fell apart rather their scrum - surely Healy is running out of time as a scrummager, he stepped out of line every time at the scrum. There were a few cheap shots at the ruck too, which should be sanctioned but the Irish forwards got desperate to prove their 'physicality'. Ryan getting stroppy in the tackle with Robson kind of summed up their day.

The WC final is clearly influencing EJ, when SA did very little attacking until the final quarter , as they battered England. The size, fitness and athleticism of the English pack now is winning games but as impressive is the queue of players lining up that didn't play today.

Well done England played well and deserved the win. Agree with others on the margin. If Ireland hadn't of kicked to the corners as much could have been closer.

From an Irish point of view I hope all the kicks to the corner was to get as much tape to review to fix the lineout. England are Really good at it so hopefully they can spot the issues. A few poor performances such as Parks and Byrne. Neither great on the back foot that they are use too. Marmion would have done much better.

Hopefully this lack of phyisicallity leads to Farrel looking at other players rather than just the next kid from Leinster.

Overall though I think there is plenty to take away and correcting a few errors and we are almost there. England really are some team and this might be the closest anyone gets to them.

Brendan wrote:Well done England played well and deserved the win.  Agree with others on the margin.  If Ireland hadn't of kicked to the corners as much could have been closer.

From an Irish point of view I hope all the kicks to the corner was to get as much tape to review to fix the lineout. England are Really good at it so hopefully they can spot the issues.  A few poor performances such as Parks and Byrne.  Neither great on the back foot that they are use too.  Marmion would have done much better.

Hopefully this lack of phyisicallity leads to Farrel looking at other players rather than just the next kid from Leinster.

Overall though I think there is plenty to take away and correcting a few errors and we are almost there.  England really are some team and this might be the closest anyone gets to them.

What other players?

England made it look a respectful scoreline for Ireland.

Never needed to get out of 2nd gear in attack but it was a great defensive performance. Trouble is the players that looked good are players we already know are good. I feel for the likes of Dunn etc. Never really given a chance. Disappointed to be honest.

All the forwards were immense today. Even Mako's scrummaging pretty much held up for the time he was on. There were a couple of silly penalties given away but the starting 8 were fantastic. And Earl when he came on just continued where Underhill left off, but with added super-speed. Launchbury I felt had an excellent game too. Seriously impressive by the English pack.

Youngs and Farrell were a bit "meh" today but the service (as expected) was better with Robson and Ford (when Robson was actually there...). I think the Irish were concerned with the threat of Ollie Lawrence rather than what he actually did. Slade's defence was great, although it seemed that half of the missed tackles were Daly's. I'd like to see him at wing with Malins at fullback please.

I'd give the fowards (and May) 9/10 and the rest of the backs a solid 6.5 - I think that's fair.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Brendan wrote:Well done England played well and deserved the win.  Agree with others on the margin.  If Ireland hadn't of kicked to the corners as much could have been closer.

From an Irish point of view I hope all the kicks to the corner was to get as much tape to review to fix the lineout. England are Really good at it so hopefully they can spot the issues.  A few poor performances such as Parks and Byrne.  Neither great on the back foot that they are use too.  Marmion would have done much better.

Hopefully this lack of phyisicallity leads to Farrel looking at other players rather than just the next kid from Leinster.

Overall though I think there is plenty to take away and correcting a few errors and we are almost there.  England really are some team and this might be the closest anyone gets to them.

What other players?

I imagine he’s referring to some Munster and Ulster players. I also came across an article here and there, and it seems some fans are not happy with the project players starting.

Think we can all agree this wasnt game of the year.

Ireland dont seem to be able to get all parts to click, and England as usual just seemed to drift out of the match and stop playing for a big period.

Still a solid win against what could've been a tough opponent. Was the lack of intent in the second half a deliberate tactic to get used to closing out games and hanging on to a lead? Feels more like England were lucky that Ireland are a bit lacking in attack themselves. If it hadnt be for May showing off it would've been a very tight affair, and maybe England wouldn't have had a lead they thought they could just smother the game out to hang on to.

Worth noting that Robson coming on did not suddenly turn England into a fast flowing try machine.

BigGee wrote:Good win England

Dominated them really, despite a bit of a come back in the second half, but game well gone by then.

England still the side to beat in the NH

France did

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Robson all at sea there.

I was thinking that tbh.

England definitely need a scrum-half to challenge Youngs but I've never been convinced that Robson is the man. He reminds me a lot of Care for England.

I really like the look of Mitchell though. He has very good basics for a scrum-half with England's game plan.

Biggest issue with Robson, for me at least, was just how long it was taking him to get to the breakdown. With the game plan England have adopted I am surprised Spencer is not involved, but in Eddie we trust I guess.

As an aside Leicester had a young guy debuting at 9 tiday who definitely had something about him. Scored a try, showed good skills and a clear head. Maybe one to watch?

I've mentioned a couple of times over the last couple of years that I'm surprised Wigglesworth wasn't still involved ahead of Heinz. Hardly like picking Heinz is looking to the future and Wigglesworth is good at the stuff Jones wants from a 9.

Spencer is an odd one. He's the only young EQP academy star at Sarries that has left on a permanent deal after the salary cap fallout. All the others either re-signed or are on 1 year loans. He was dropped by England pretty suddenly after playing well in his brief cameos too. Part of me wonders if there's something going on behind the scenes with attitude/training etc that turned Jones off. Just conjecture though.

I hope Mitchell gets a shot and I like the look of both Maunder brothers as well. There is talent at 9 but they will need to alter their game to stick to the strict game plan. Youngs did that which is why he remains a favourite for Jones. If a younger 9 adapts his game better then I do think Lenny will be jettisoned same as Hartley, Brown, Robshaw, etc.

Gooseberry wrote:Think we can all agree this wasnt game of the year.

Ireland dont seem to be able to get all parts to click, and England as usual just seemed to drift out of the match and stop playing for a big period.

Still a solid win against what could've been a tough opponent. Was the lack of intent in the second half a deliberate tactic to get used to closing out games and hanging on to a lead? Feels more like England were lucky that Ireland are a bit lacking in attack themselves. If it hadnt be for May showing off it would've been a very tight affair, and maybe England wouldn't have had a lead they thought they could just smother the game out to hang on to.

Worth noting that Robson coming on did not suddenly turn England into a fast flowing try machine.

You seem a big fan of youngs. I asked after the last game what you liked about his performance which you failed to answer twice. What is it about him makes you think hes the best guy to take us forward? Robson came on and didnt do much. I suppose he has the ability to pass to the guy hes aiming for but that to me is the minimum level we should be aiming for!

Personally I'd be looking at 2 different players but the fans of youngs do love him.

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Robson all at sea there.

I was thinking that tbh.

England definitely need a scrum-half to challenge Youngs but I've never been convinced that Robson is the man. He reminds me a lot of Care for England.

I really like the look of Mitchell though. He has very good basics for a scrum-half with England's game plan.

Biggest issue with Robson, for me at least, was just how long it was taking him to get to the breakdown. With the game plan England have adopted I am surprised Spencer is not involved, but in Eddie we trust I guess.

As an aside Leicester had a young guy debuting at 9 tiday who definitely had something about him. Scored a try, showed good skills and a clear head. Maybe one to watch?

I've mentioned a couple of times over the last couple of years that I'm surprised Wigglesworth wasn't still involved ahead of Heinz. Hardly like picking Heinz is looking to the future and Wigglesworth is good at the stuff Jones wants from a 9.

Spencer is an odd one. He's the only young EQP academy star at Sarries that has left on a permanent deal after the salary cap fallout. All the others either re-signed or are on 1 year loans. He was dropped by England pretty suddenly after playing well in his brief cameos too. Part of me wonders if there's something going on behind the scenes with attitude/training etc that turned Jones off. Just conjecture though.

I hope Mitchell gets a shot and I like the look of both Maunder brothers as well. There is talent at 9 but they will need to alter their game to stick to the strict game plan. Youngs did that which is why he remains a favourite for Jones. If a younger 9 adapts his game better then I do think Lenny will be jettisoned same as Hartley, Brown, Robshaw, etc.

Hard to adapt their game if they're not picked for england though. Youngs has been very good for england but his form is dire at present. The others need game time surely.

Thinking a head to next week England v Wales. I know ford as been injured, but do you think EJ would/should stick with Farrell at 10 Slade and Lawrence in the centre partnership.
Or should he ( EJ ) bring Ford in at 10 move Farrell to But who would you drop Slade or Lawrence? maybe drop JJ and mmove Lawrence to wing, maybe put Daily on the wing move Lawrence to full back, can lawrence pay Full back?

Will be interesting to see what choice EJ will decide.

Thinking a head to next week England v Wales. I know ford as been injured, but do you think EJ would/should stick with Farrell at 10 Slade and Lawrence in the centre partnership.
Or should he ( EJ ) bring Ford in at 10 move Farrell to But who would you drop Slade or Lawrence? maybe drop JJ and mmove Lawrence to wing, maybe put Daily on the wing move Lawrence to full back, can lawrence pay Full back?

Will be interesting to see what choice EJ will decide.

mikey_dragon wrote:So POM wasn’t great then.

He was actually. Sorry.

profitius wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:So POM wasn’t great then.

He was actually. Sorry.

I’m calling fake news on that one. Why don’t Ireland just play Beirne, Coombs or a Leinster player at 6? They’d be much better for it.

POM gave away a few penalties and didn't dominate the lineout (although Irish hooker wasn't performing well). Not sure how much else he did.

lostinwales wrote:POM gave away a few penalties and didn't dominate the lineout (although Irish hooker wasn't performing well). Not sure how much else he did.

What was he supposed to do exactly? He got stuck in and didn't take a backward step. Stander got subbed and not POM.

profitius wrote:

lostinwales wrote:POM gave away a few penalties and didn't dominate the lineout (although Irish hooker wasn't performing well). Not sure how much else he did.

What was he supposed to do exactly? He got stuck in and didn't take a backward step. Stander got subbed and not POM.

That is true. It wasn't an easy game for Irish forwards to stand out